Post to EN24.
Edit: Also register your own domain name so you can be super cool.
Do it fa--
I give no fucks about your anti botting posts.
Very accurate and well written. Calls it how it is.
Enjoy your flood of rep good sir+
I probably speak for others when I say that if server performance continues to be enhanced, i give no fucks about botsEVE is a small game ran by a small company who's running it in a fashion that's incredibly expensive ..a single server. Blizzard spends annually around $1m a year combating bots and RMT and manages to ban multiple times the entire EVE playerbase a year, and still hasn't won the fight. If CCP devotes the resources it would need towards actually making a difference in botting then other things are going to suffer greatly, specifically server upgrades, content patches, and bug fixes.
no cause they will simply create new accounts to repalce the banned ones because the rate of return remains high.
I really really tried so hard, but i can't stop myself from asking: Where's some actual info about NC and DRF botters?
+rep, nice article
Talk about stealing Rivs thunder
IAC was always anti bot like a fury.
I remember when Tyrrax recruited a Chinese isk farmer corp to IAC.
He sold us the idea that they would only rat in Delve and would be shoot on site
if found in catch. The isk we got from them went to alliance coffers.
Did you steal Tyrrax idea Fugazii?
To be fair, riv can still make his e24 post as he said he was going to post a guide to botting, which the OP here lacks
good stuff, Revealing indeed
"Sounds like Blizzard was really giving em a run for their money right? No, the exact opposite happened, botting use skyrocketed. The reason behind this is simple, if it's your job and your losing accounts faster the way to combat this is to make more accounts to bot with to offset the shorter lifespan of said accounts. Combined with the lessening of Gold value you simply just needed more bots."
Maybe the story I posted earlier to day makes more sense to you guys now. Read fugaziis story. Then you will realize.
Evil must reside somewhere. Spending all your resources and time to combat what has followed us from the beginnings of time.
Is not a good idea.
The amount of money people are willing to dedicate to their online passions has always amazed me. I was in a text-based MUD and witnessed people spending tens of thousands of dollars to get characters and unique items. To repeat: people spent major cash on a text-based MUD.
And of course where there is money, there is corruption. The most notorious was a GM who would create literally anything for the right price, and he profited amazingly from it. Of course he was eventually caught and fired, but he claimed he made at least $25,000 tax-free before the hammer fell, money that nicely supplemented his day job as a uniformed police officer.
So, props for posting and for, uh, getting credit at you're college for this.
I think you fail to deal with a few important things:
PLEX as a demand-reducer; if you want WoWgold, there's no legit way to get it. As a result, the task for CCP isn't to eliminate isk buying/selling at all costs, rather, to raise the cost of doing so to the point where it's cheaper and less risky to sell PLEX. This is a lot less hard.
Further, consider that absolutely nothing is done at present. Do you have any source for your statistic that Blizz spends $1m/year fighting this? If it's true, I imagine it includes the cost of litigation (taking WoWglider to the 9th Circuit using a novel interpretation of the DMCA, for example). CCP doesn't even care if accounts are logged in ratting 23/7 for weeks on end. How much money would they have to spend to knock out the large fraction of extremely obvious bots? Remember, they don't need to end it; they have PLEX. They just need to make it a much bigger pain in the ass than it currently is, which would be trivially easy.
Also, you think 80b a week is much? Did you read the EN24 article? Those 82 bots were generating that much in a day or two. I think it's gotten worse as the content has gotten more and more stale.
Further, EVE is a butterfly-effect type sandbox. If you have more gold and get your epic mount, it doesn't matter to me. If you bot your way to a supercap fleet, that effects and imbalances the whole game and undermines whatever integrity and merit you might imagine it to have. The things that people consider "accomplishments" in wow that motivate them to play -- achievements, raids, arena titles, etc., can't really be bought (sure people pay for run-throughs but that's relatively minor). That's not true in EVE, where ISK buys damn near everything.
You're right that if they fixed lag, people would be a lot less pissed about botting (including me!) I guess I don't see why they can't do both.
If RMT and botting is so inevitable and unimportant, why not just change the EULA and allow it?
The lack of coherence in this article is too obivious. The concept is good: Write a rather large paper, give it a good story, sneak in alot of factual errors serving your agenda, and hope it all gets eaten hook, line, sinker etc. You just have a too high density of bull. Effort 8. Quality 3.
fuck ccp, cormack killed my bot today
The sources for 1m/yr spent is something I came across while doing research for the paper beyond what my knowledge was. The Glider lawsuit, another thing I had to cut out of this article, was partially won in 2008 and Blizzard was awarded $6.5m to be paid by Mercury(as known on the forums) the creator of the bot.
Nowadays 80b isn't alot, but at the time it was. You've got to remember the Chinese lived in systems with true-sec that was so shitty that noone else bothered farming there. Systems in which any battleship spawn would be something you'd chain. Upgrades weren't in the game yet. So generating that much isk from people chaining single 500k spawns was alot, what is being generated now is astronomical in comparison.
Yes in other games things that matter can't be bought, but at the same time they can't be destroyed either. It's only an imbalance if only 1 group is buying things through RMT, but that's simply not the case.
CCP has been fixing lag. What this game was possible 7 years ago, or even 1 year ago is far different than what it is now. There's always going to be lag because the game is always being taken 1 step further. The fact that you can now have relatively lag free 1k man fights is something you'd dream of in recent past. I would rather see them continue down this path of making the game more playable and more epic than hamper that progress by diverting resources towards things that really don't effect most people.
It's not allowed because it's bad press. It's considered cheating, and if they legitimatize something that is thought as such would be seen as legitimatizing cheating.
Like I said this is a paper that was originally 12 pages. I cut it in half to 6 pages in word then had to further cut it down to fit into the word limit this website has for it to fit into 2 articles(10k letters/per). So ya, it's a bit choppy and coherence isn't as good as it could be. If you feel something isn't factual point it out and I'll do my best at explaining my point.
There is no way in hell any college would accept that as a paper. (Well unless your German + aristocratic )
While the whole thing is basically written in blog-style, lacking actual facts, models, explanations and replaces it with useless information (so you were a grand marshall, good for you) i don't have the time to go through it all.
(I like big) BUT(ts and i cannot lie)
there is one paragraph that shows in a very obvious way that you
a) have no idea bout many economic principles
b) never worked on the topic in any way that's required for a university paper
c) did write this with an agenda trying to use simple but faulty logic to catch people
Here is what you (deliberately) missed:Sounds like Blizzard was really giving em a run for their money right? No, the exact opposite happened, botting use skyrocketed. The reason behind this is simple, if it's your job and your losing accounts faster the way to combat this is to make more accounts to bot with to offset the shorter lifespan of said accounts. Combined with the lessening of Gold value you simply just needed more bots
1. Opportunity Cost:
If it's more of a hassle to manage botting in one game people will just go to games where it's easier (or even get a real job :P). You didn't account for this effect at all ( you do later but without drawing the right conclusions or even linking it to this paragraph)
2. Fixed Cost and gross margin:
Each new account costs a fix sum (50 bucks? no idea) and also won't be useful until it's leveled up. The faster bots get banned the more important this effekt becomes and the less you will be able to make with this specific game (see 1.)
3. Botting use skyrocketed(quote)
Here you imply the botting problem got way worse because blizzard was fighting the bots. Thats simply a moronic conclusion. Even if the number of bots "skyrocketed" (which i'm sure it didn't and you don't deliver any proof to back it up) you will still have less botting and botting related problems like rmt because the accounts will have to level up, dirty currency will get confiscated more often and more of the rmt money goes into account fees + game purchases. You say it yourself: you need way more bots for the same income. But same income means same amount of gold farmed per period of time so again: your implication of the bot problem getting worse because blizzard started to fight them is:
edit: also this forum really needs a shoutbox
KKM - Kugutsumen Karma Mafia
So after reading the article I found it interesting but largely bereft of facts, especially any with a global application to the problem. And then it ended as suggesting we shouldn't ban bots because it would cost CCP money (like I care?) and the bots are under-writing the movement of the game towards super-caps (or Machariels) online.
I don't expect CCP to win versus the bots, but I do expect them to try and make it moderately challenging for them to turn a profit, and that includes changing the game if needed so that their are limits to being able to buy advantage. And if there's less money and we end up fighting battles in cheaper ships it *doesn't matter* as long as everyone is playing to the same rules.
I'm not sure you understand what a source is. You're supposed to refer to places that you get facts and data, so that other people can verify and check them. "Something I came across while doing research" is not a source.
It would take next to no resources to ban accounts that are active 23/7 for days on end. It is trivially easy. The only "resources" it takes are the botter's subscription dollars, for which CCP is desperate to fund WoD development. Fuck that noise. I'm not interested in playing a game for cheaters just because CCP has other priorities.
The reason they wont amend the EULA is, as Hostile said, it would result in the game being rapidly destroyed. Even un-enforced rules impact behavior and norms. If everyone who didn't bot because they cared about abstractions like fairness and integrity despite the fact of non-enforcement all started botting, plex would be 2 billion, trit would be .50 and nobody would play any PVE and PVP would be meaningless without losses that couldn't be auto-farmed back while you slept.
Most of the idiots that buy isk. Buy it legally. From CCP.
Its been this way for what 5 years?
Many use it to buy old Chars.
Some of it ends in some PVP guy pocket. Take a look at the comedy kill mail thread.
this was a really good article, i'm a little surprised to see people feverishly tearing into it. i'd unironically read the full 12 page version, please post it
Your tl:dr analysis is basically: Bots makes eve easier, cheaper and more enjoyable for the average player so you should not delete them. Makes sense if the game was meant as a easy mode game, alas it is not.
A good article is properly sourced and based on current information. This is not a good article and would be laughed out of a high school much less a college.
I don't think a good article on botting is a realistic possibility. The writer would essentially have to do basic research, i.e. create their own bots and run them for a significant period of time like six months. Even then, there's no guarantee they'd run them optimally. It's not like we can trust the RMTlords to give us accurate data. First, they don't want to talk about because CCP might hear them. Second, beware the advice of successful people; they do not seek company.
~~~~GIMMIE +REP+ GIMMIE~~~~
Also factoring in the amount of isk needed to keep yourself in T2 ships. Its not just like you choose to grind isk because you want wealth. If you want to pee ve pee you are forced to grind. Not that I have ever botted myself. But damn it would be nice if they made acquiring the isk take the same amount of time but in a much more engaging way.
But hey it will never happen.
Well yes everybody knows this. The more isk you own the more isk you can make but you have to hit the billions mark 1st and for a newb that jumps into 0.0 pvp etc etc that isn't such an easy mile stone to reach. Also factoring in the need for JF's and the such to make it really lucrative and the need for alt accounts. But thats not the point coz it only applys to already rich people.
I was being a bit more basic.
Hint: you can make a bil in about 5 hours playtime doing FW missions.
Pick 2 of 3
Though your point is valid. But I only look at this through the 0.0 dwellers 1st year in the game. I could give a fuck less about empire.
+1 interesting read.
I've been tempted occasionally to give H-Bot etc a go for a while now, usually when I've nothing left in my wallet, cant be arsed buying a GTC & turning that into ISK & the thought of running another sanctum turns me cold.
I dont agree with it but I've almost justified it to myself thinking "if you cant beat them, join them". Only problem is, I have just 2 "main" characters, both in the same corp & I really cant summon up the enthusiasm to train a botting alt.
I'm not here bleating about how unfair it is that I obviously fail at making ISK, ultimately EvE is a game & the reason I struggle to maintain more than 200m in my wallet is that I devote very little time to grinding NPC rats. I play a game for entertainment, although I understand that there has to be some effort put into making ISK otherwise it becomes meaningless & the market prices spiral out of control, I do wish there was some other way.
On the flip side, the fact that I have so little by way of liquid ISK, it does make the loss of a ship more "exciting(?)". In my corp, the ship replacement scheme replaces the hull, nothing else, so if my rigged, T2 fitted BS goes pop I'm out of pocket, usually to the tune of 1/2 my wallet after insurance. That means either I go run another couple of santcums (an hour gone of my 2hr/night game time) or wait until my small stash of ships run out & then sell another GTC for ISK. I'm of the opinion that giving CCP more of my RL cash than I already do to pay for 2 accounts sucks.
TL;DR I'm not a fan of botting, especially to turn it into RL cash but the more I spend of my limited & precious (to me) time grinding NPC rats to replace a ship / mods so I can go PVP again is tempting me to give it a go.
Itīs kept a bit to simple minded imo.
Summary: You canīt remove RMT, so deal with it. (No really ?)
Below the line the article uncovers some interesting details wich make it worth reading but than totally fails by trying to draw a big picture of how harmless botting actually is.
I canīt disagree more !
I haven't done any isk grinding at all in eve the last 3 years, same goes for most of my corp mates.
He is saying botting removes the boring parts of making isk, id say it only removes the boring parts of making isk for the people stupid enough not to do it the easy way.
Which leaves the people with enough brains with 0 advantage, which i personally thinks is retarded in a game like eve.
Eve is and have never been about ~risk free pvp~ as the article says botting gives, so its not a valid argument.
edit; But then again, i do not really care about botting since i dont have the to, wont stop me from pointing and smugging at the people i know bot however.
The PLEX issue isn't "transparent price discovery" it's a value floor. CCP sets a real world value for isk. 750m isk = $34.99 anything bellow that is a bargain and the RMTers are guaranteed a profit. Belt ratting bots are not RMTers except possibly in drone regions. For RMT they want guaranteed safe botting bellow the radar. Suspended accounts and neut cloakers interfering with your bots is bad for business. Armies of highsec L4 bots, trit miners or the threat that really should be much higher on everyone's agenda here market bots.
Blizzard did not cure botting they just made the running costs so expensive that the botters had to change tactics. They no longer buy and sub their own accounts. They phish or use trojans to get account details of legit players and run bots using their accounts until they are banned. Those players then have to beg to get their accounts restored.
theres a lot of bashing on something in here that is, as mentioned in the OP, not complete.
Im not sure what i found more wierd. The snippets from his paper or all the faggots in here shouting "you missed a spot" to a painter that's only just opened the can of paint.
Wouldnt mind reading the entire paper if possible, would prolly put things in a bit better context.
But the point is the same. It is not currently in the best interest of CCP to really stamp out botting and RMT. The money they get from those accounts has to be a solid chunk of overall revenue. CCP is a business. So long as what is going on is not illegal it is going to be accepted by those reaping the profits.
Blizzard can afford to look tough but in reality they also know every one of those accounts they ban is huge dollars back in their pockets as the botters/RMTs have to reup and pay for not only new subscriptions but all the software expansions. There is pure profit motive to ban as many farming accounts as they can because they know they will be replaced.
That really only affected the little guys. The big businesses, the IGEs etc all still build the accounts into the cost of doing business.Blizzard did not cure botting they just made the running costs so expensive that the botters had to change tactics.
Just hanging around yo.
+Rep, good read. Some interesting thoughts on the issue, and does (to some extent) put some meaning behind such CCP moves as the whole Incursions thing... So long as there's a glimmer of hope for the people who don't bot, maybe they won't convert in droves to botting? Fix content, acquire currency. Hopefully they will start to focus on drastic revamps of systems that are already in place, there's a great deal of potential to make EVE a funner place to be. Mining minigames, automated pos module deployment (don't hate, it would reduce a good amount of logistics burnout), conquerable space through the wormholes, meaningful epic arcs, wormhole development, the works.
Edit: pos modules* not the control tower
A decent read on a slow Friday.