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Republicans & Democrats: The Glory of the Two Party System

  1. King Dong Fartman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Mittani View Post
    indeed, since being conservative and pushing conservative causes makes you an evil shitheel

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    Koch / Koch 2012

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quantity View Post
    make tough choices.
    The increasingly popular euphemisim for gleefully cutting public expenditure...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mira Z View Post
    The increasingly popular euphemisim for gleefully cutting public expenditure...
    what part of we can't afford all of these "public expenditures" do you not understand?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobFromMarketing View Post
    Why do you people still argue about this shit? Have you ever, once, just once, turned someone to your side who was arguing against you in one of these shit holes?
    i'm just doing a drive-by vOv
    [twitter]themittani[/twitter]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fartman View Post
    what part of we can't afford all of these "public expenditures" do you not understand?
    So you don't think they are cutting deeper than they have to for ideological reasons?

    I don't know the exact situation in America but that's broadly the story here in the UK. In fact, there's a real chance of dipping back into recession because of the severity of the cuts in public spending. That and the entire public sector is on the verge of striking because of the effects on the quality of services.

    Edit: Our politicians dont hate each other half as much as yours do, so I would be very suprised if they weren't doing the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mira Z View Post
    I don't know the exact situation in America but that's broadly the story here in the UK
    ok you're not american, that explains it.. This is Obama's proposed 2011 Federal budget (the states themselves are another matter: some are doing okay like Texas, some are essentially bankrupt like Illinois and California..)

    Total revenue $2.17 trillion (estimated)
    Total expenditures $3.82 trillion (estimated)
    Deficit $1.65 trillion (estimated)
    In other words, in 2011 alone, assuming Obama's budget is passed as is, the Feds will be spending $1.65 trillion they don't have.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mira Z View Post
    I don't know the exact situation in America but that's broadly the story here in the UK. In fact, there's a real chance of dipping back into recession because of the severity of the cuts in public spending. That and the entire public sector is on the verge of striking because of the effects on the quality of services.
    The difference in the US is that we acknowledge that the private sector is the driving force of the economy and cutting spending by the government does not equate to a loss in GDP. In fact many economists are arguing that if the Fed does not cut spending the economy may overheat as private investment picks up.

  10. The Viking King Agathor's Avatar
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    Reps: We need to cut taxes, so we get more cash. Dont worry it will all trickle down, plus it will starve the beast that is big gov.
    Dems: Ok lets try that out.

    4 years later.
    Dems: Hey guys, whats going on?
    Reps: Haha, I spent all the cash on a 100k German car and I took a loan from the Chinese for a 250 k Ferrari. Nobody buys American you stupid faggot.
    Dems: Ermmmm sooooo what you said were all lies?
    Reps: Nahh, we have our best experts on it. They say we need to cut taxes even more. Ban all unions and put more peeps in prison.
    Maybe start a 3 war to keep the military complex going.
    Dems: ok lets try that.
    4 years later.
    Rinse and repeat.

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    Reagan rised taxes the 6 years of 8 he was in office and inflated the gov budget.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agathor View Post
    Reagan rised taxes the 6 years of 8 he was in office and inflated the gov budget.
    Reagan raised taxes to fight the ridiculously high rates of inflation.

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    He also raised dept from from $997 billion to $2.85 trillion.

    As for fighting inflation, Paul Adolph Volcker (born September 5, 1927) is an American economist. He was the Chairman of the Federal Reserve under United States Presidents Jimmy Carter and Ronald Reagan from August 1979 to August 1987. He is widely credited with ending the high levels of inflation seen in the United States in the 1970s and early 1980s. He was the Chairman of the Economic Recovery Advisory Board under President Barack Obama from February 2009[1] until January 2011.[2]

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    My point was though, that the budget does not need to balance completely. It's perfectly acceptable to run up a little debt if it will foster growth or help vulnerable people through hard times a little better.

    It's a question of the severity of cuts. Conservatives are maximising the cuts for ideological reasons, all the while claiming they are making tough choices because spending needs to be cut. They aren't. They're using it as an excuse to attack parts of the budget they don't like.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agathor View Post
    Reagan rised taxes the 6 years of 8 he was in office and inflated the gov budget.
    This helped us beat the soviets. We are still waiting for the rest of the world to thank us but they prefer to complain isntead vov
    If you kill enough of them they stop fighting - Gen. Curtis Lemay
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mira Z View Post
    My point was though, that the budget does not need to balance completely. It's perfectly acceptable to run up a little debt if it will foster growth or help vulnerable people through hard times a little better.

    It's a question of the severity of cuts. Conservatives are maximising the cuts for ideological reasons, all the while claiming they are making tough choices because spending needs to be cut. They aren't. They're using it as an excuse to attack parts of the budget they don't like.
    We are so deep in debt its not even funny any more. If we were a person banks wouldn't touch us with a 10 foot pole. Cutting the defecit needs to be THE top priority.
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    Nasa and the Taliban helped you there abit to

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agathor View Post
    Nasa and the Taliban helped you there abit to
    They did indeed. Those lazy bums in europe didn't do shit

    If we want to cut costs perhaps we should pull our troops out of Britain and Europe. Its not like we are still worried about a resurgent Germany or anything.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grim View Post

    If we want to cut costs perhaps we should pull our troops out of Britain and Europe. Its not like we are still worried about a resurgent Germany or anything.
    This is actually one of the smartest things I have ever heard a rep say

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agathor View Post
    This is actually one of the smartest things I have ever heard a rep say
    I don't fit the republican stereotype very well. I'm not religious at all, and dont give 2 shits about gays or abortions.

    But I dont compromise much in national security or the economy.
    If you kill enough of them they stop fighting - Gen. Curtis Lemay
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  21. King Dong Fartman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grim View Post
    I don't fit the republican stereotype very well. I'm not religious at all, and dont give 2 shits about gays or abortions.

    But I dont compromise much in national security or the economy.

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    my budget plan for the uk would be to cut everything but bare essentials (ie not the NHS or defence) by 50-75% and scale back welfare for all but the absolute most needy and attempt pay off these debts we have completely. We currently pay more for the interest on our debts than we spend on defence which honestly is a farcical situation to be in.

    Giving the public a situation where you put up with xx years of minimal government assistance in exchange for a proper monetary situation in the future is a much better idea than the current plan of only cutting enough to make people really mad while not actually having any proper effect on our finances.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grim View Post
    But I dont compromise much in national security or the economy.
    I agree with you in terms of republican view of the economy but national security needs to be drastically reevaluated. We are no longer in the cold war and terrorism is not a large enough threat to justify the huge defense spending we currently have.

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    What kind if tax code do you brits have? For us its a graduated income scale, but they fucked it up with millions of exemptions and rebates.
    If you kill enough of them they stop fighting - Gen. Curtis Lemay
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  25. God is dead. They found his carcass in 2019.. Phey Onat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quantity View Post
    I agree with you in terms of republican view of the economy but national security needs to be drastically reevaluated. We are no longer in the cold war and terrorism is not a large enough threat to justify the huge defense spending we currently have.
    Pentagon has already offered up cuts to be made but it still gets spun like it's unamerican or agaisnt-the-troops

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grim View Post
    What kind if tax code do you brits have? For us its a graduated income scale, but they fucked it up with millions of exemptions and rebates.
    This is a gross simplification, but this is it in a nutshell:

    Scroll down to the very bottom of the page.

    http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/rates/it.htm

    Then we have taxes on savings etc... Worst of all, death duty and inheritance tax. If you die, the Government gets to tax your savings for what is at minimum the third time they have taken a slice of them. Which is a nice way of saying fuck you to your grieving loved ones.

    Our income tax is designed to fuck the middle classes or anyone that has a bona fide career (graduates, mid level business, doctors, junior legal etc...) as opposed to a 9-5 in a service industry.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phey Onat View Post
    Pentagon has already offered up cuts to be made but it still gets spun like it's unamerican or agaisnt-the-troops
    A lot of the opposition is also due to politicians use of defense spending as a blank check to bring jobs and money to their districts.

  28. God is dead. They found his carcass in 2019.. Yorda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grim View Post
    This helped us beat the soviets. We are still waiting for the rest of the world to thank us but they prefer to complain isntead vov
    The soviet union was already falling apart. Work done my nixon/kissenger towards the end of the vietnam war did far more to win the cold war than any sort of stupid spending done by Reagan.
    The idea that I have "free will" is the only irrational belief that I allow myself.

    If I am wrong, I had no choice in the matter.

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    Gaddaffi's speech reminded me of this thread.



    TLDR

    Young people who don't respect their elders take drugs and riot because they are not responsible. This plays into the hands of Osama Bin Laden.

    The shops are full and you can get all the loans you want.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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    A fact that a lot of people ignore is that despite all the military spending we have, the US military is in the worse shape its been since Vietnam. The equipment is incredibly old and falling apart (we are still flying planes built when Eisenhower was president)

    The recent wars have put huge strains on personell in all services, and even in the reserve/national guard. Despite all these issues and Gates and the Pentagon are doing their best to trim the fat, cut back on unneeded units and projects (like joint forces command) but are still getting grief from congress (why does the F-35 need 2 engine suppliers?).

    And with the reagan thing, many of the programs he pushed has allowed us to do as what we are doing now. Without him we probably wouldnt have had stealth aircraft, the B-1, and a lot of other technologies that were canceled or ignored in the previous administrations.
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    Here is an idea, stop starting wars or invading country that necessitate deployments half the world away and cost you a frankly insane amount of money. Then suddenly, you no longer needs such a ridiculously large armed forces. You have a military designed around a blueprint that assumed a ground/air/naval war with another super power and you are using it to smash nations that are militarily speaking as threatening as a pensioner with a rolled up newspaper.

    Shit is totally unnecessary. However, since we all know the status quo isnt going to change, maybe you should just invade Canada. Its near by, convenient and they have nice bacon. Give the CIA a few years to train an insurgency there and i'm sure in a few years time they can knock down a few buildings and you can generat ethe public will for an invasion.

    /sarky rant

    The UK does this shit too. If armed forces are dicks, we are a midget that is hung like peter north
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    Oh no, what would we have done in iraq/afganistan without stealth aircraft.

    I'm all for military spending, as long as it's useful. Building more aircraft carriers when they're of little use and the US has a ridiculous % of them compared to the rest of the world is a waste. Developing a medium craft that can navigate in shallow water, has a helipad, and can be used as a staging area? That sounds a bit better investment in this day and age.
    The idea that I have "free will" is the only irrational belief that I allow myself.

    If I am wrong, I had no choice in the matter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorda View Post
    Building more aircraft carriers when they're of little use and the US has a ridiculous % of them compared to the rest of the world is a waste
    There are 12, i believe, carrier battle groups.. at any given time 2-3 of them are in maintenance or being refit (a process that can sometimes take years).
    We are, like it or not, expected to secure the seas (like, globally) because, well, if not us then who? If you dedicate 1-2 CBGs to the atlantic/med (a rather
    large area) and 1-2 to "the pacific" (a rather larger area), leaving 1-2 to be deployed where needed and 2-3 as backups in case one gets wiped out some-
    how (because they take years to replace), having 12 starts to seem not quite so excessive.

    The only carriers that have been built lately were replacing older ones being decomissioned, not net-new carriers.

    I probably have the exact numbers wrong but the point is we're not shitting out carriers like they were titans

    That said the Age of the Carrier - at least in their present form - is probably at an end, or at least the beginning of the end.

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  35. I'm Only in It for the Money Grim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorda View Post
    Oh no, what would we have done in iraq/afganistan without stealth aircraft.

    I'm all for military spending, as long as it's useful. Building more aircraft carriers when they're of little use and the US has a ridiculous % of them compared to the rest of the world is a waste. Developing a medium craft that can navigate in shallow water, has a helipad, and can be used as a staging area? That sounds a bit better investment in this day and age.
    How would we have been able to bomb downtown bagdhad without stealth aircraft? How would we be able to hit targets so precisely without JDAMs, JASSM, and other advanced weapons systems?

    I mean, sure, we could stop invading everyone who disagrees with us, but when you get down to it the real threat we have is China and Iran. Terrorism is really a greater threat to Europe than the US anyways.

    Also, it pisses me off that in both Iraq and Afganistan we had signifigant backing from our allies in Europe, but after it became clear it wasn't going to a cakewalk they start to feel its an unjust war and pull out.
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    Here is an epithany for you: Iran is not a military threat to the United States. It will not be even if it has nukes.

    Developing a medium craft that can navigate in shallow water, has a helipad, and can be used as a staging area? That sounds a bit better investment in this day and age.
    C.

    The US navy is actually looking into that. Plans on the drawingboard are to develop the naval railgun and megawat range free electron lasers (essentially for point defense, but LOS use is still planned) for a new platform of destroyer sized craft with direct electrical generation. Unfortunately, the current mindset in Washington looks at this and says: wait, we pay all that money and all we get is this one little boat?

    Aircraft carriers have been obsolete for years against any first world nation. Anti ship ballistic missiles are impossible for a carrier group to defend against and leagues ahead of current R&D being put into missile defense systems. If the US ever, just for example, decided to blockade Chinese ports, the unluck battlegroup tasked with that would be a twisted mess metal on the seabed the moment the Chinese decided to exert themselves.

    tl;dr carriers are OK if all you are fighting is nations that cant even begin to punch on the same weight class as you, but the moment they go up against something with a modern airforce or sub fleet they are toast
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    Quote Originally Posted by RansomList View Post
    Here is an epithany for you: Iran is not a military threat to the United States. It will not be even if it has nukes.
    c. it may be a terrorism threat, but not really a military threat. at least not to the US itself, obv. iraq/kuwait/saudi arabia are a different matter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fartman View Post
    c. it may be a terrorism threat, but not really a military threat. at least not to the US itself, obv. iraq/kuwait/saudi arabia are a different matter.
    Which brings us to the question of should the US put the effort into attempting to maintain world peace. At the moment we are being taken advantage of by a lot of countries who are afraid of their neigbors and want to use us for free protection. And because we are so nice we pay them for the privelege of being their friend.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fartman View Post
    c. it may be a terrorism threat, but not really a military threat. at least not to the US itself, obv. iraq/kuwait/saudi arabia are a different matter.
    Leave Iran alone and it will leave you alone. American international politics seems like poking someone dog with a stick until it bites you then denouncing it as a terrorist and giving it both barreks. I get that your military-industrial complex and gov need a big bad guy to generat erevenue/keep the public stupid and unquestioning of authority but COME ON.

    I feel a little silly about saying 'military industrial complex'. I feel i should stop washing, cover the walls in chickenwire and wear tinfoil.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RansomList View Post
    Leave Iran alone and it will leave you alone. American international politics seems like poking someone dog with a stick until it bites you then denouncing it as a terrorist and giving it both barreks. I get that your military-industrial complex and gov need a big bad guy to generat erevenue/keep the public stupid and unquestioning of authority but COME ON.

    I feel a little silly about saying 'military industrial complex'. I feel i should stop washing, cover the walls in chickenwire and wear tinfoil.
    Your right. The same could be said for most of the world. Now this might sound arrogant, but I have this vision of the US pulling all its troops back from its foreign bases, downsizing its military, and saying "good luck world, your gonna need it." If this happens I would expect widespread conflicts all around the world, from Russia and China beating on their neighbors, the middle east going to hell in a handbasket again, etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fartman View Post
    (the states themselves are another matter: some are doing okay like Texas)
    Texas is something close to $25 billion in debt, which is insane considering our economy and population.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aurora148 View Post
    my budget plan for the uk would be to cut everything but bare essentials (ie not the NHS or defence) by 50-75%.
    I'm aware of the reason for American military paranoia, but why does the U.K. really need a military in this day and age? Are they worried that Argentina is going to start some more shit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim View Post
    How would we have been able to bomb downtown bagdhad without stealth aircraft?
    Non-stealth aircraft.
    ?"eve's a bad mmo, really bad, it's only saving grace is the people playing it, which i guess doesn't say great things about the people playing other MMOs"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinata View Post

    Non-stealth aircraft.
    While this is very true, at the time of the first Gulf War Baghdad had the heaviest air defences of anyplace in the world. We would have lost a lot of people and planes trying to do it conventionaly.
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    look what i'm really not going to compromise on is economics based on homo economicus and rational self interest, and i'm certainly not going to compromise on killing browns and poors. don't lump me in with those bible bangers, ha ha!
    [twitter]themittani[/twitter]

  44. God is dead. They found his carcass in 2019.. Aurora148's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinata View Post
    I'm aware of the reason for American military paranoia, but why does the U.K. really need a military in this day and age? Are they worried that Argentina is going to start some more shit?
    the vast majority of public and political opinion at the moment is that we have committed ourselves to Afghanistan and pulling out with the situation as it is currently would be a PR disaster for the government/armed forces, even if it doesn't seem like it at times there is still a lot of respect and nostalgia attached to the UK armed forces by the general public when it shouldn't really. Any further cutbacks in military spending would have to come out of the Afghanistan operation, as the military budget is already significantly stretched to keep its funding somewhat constant.

  45. King of Space The Mittani's Avatar
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    the sky fairy and homo economicus hang out together in a cloud rationally pursuing their self interest of things that do not exist, along with phlogiston and ether
    [twitter]themittani[/twitter]

  46. King Dong Fartman's Avatar
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    mittens you should totally get one of those che t-shirts if you don't have one yet


  47. Prominent Author Lysander's Avatar
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    My opinion (like it matters): Our species will either outgrow childish jokes like "conservatism" or go extinct. I'd place my money on extinct.

    It really makes me laugh when slaves (read consumers) are so ready to defend their masters (the rich). All they have to do is dangle a carrot in front of your nose and you'll run that treadmill and line thier pockets until you die, sperging about "freedom" with your last breath.

    America is a fucking lie. It's a better lie than a lot of the others out there, but it's still that, a hierarchical piramid scheme that fleeces brainwashed idiots.

    And I promised myself I wasn't going to post in this fucking thread... vOv

  48. King Dong Fartman's Avatar
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    cool story bro

    so whats your major?

  49. Expendable Trandoshan's Avatar
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    The idea that the US can't afford its current public expenditures is laughable. The person who says that doesn't realize that current US taxes are extremely low compared to other countries, or even historically. The idea that Medicare or Social Security would need (or ought) to be cut back or destroyed is also ludicrous, given the already anemic public support system. We do have the end of the Baby Boom generation coming up, but that's gonna be a big blip in the demographic pyramid that'll settle out in a few decades.

    The answer is really simple, although the implementation is not and no one wants to do it for really stupid ideological reasons.

    Raise taxes.

    Some nitpicks: Texas is not doing well, and has quietly used Federal money to fill in its budget holes in the past few years.

  50. I'm Only in It for the Money Grim's Avatar
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    Maybe I'm being unrealistic here, but nowhere in the constitution does it say that its the federal governments job to save money for your retirement, pay you if you are unemployed, make you buy health insurance, and any number of other projects that have become common over the last century.

    Its almost impossible to go back now, but I see no reason to complain about a poor social safety net and things like that. The world isn't a nice place, and its not the governments responsibility to hold your hand. They exist to protect your freedoms and provide some basic services like roads and schools.

    I wouldn't be against raising taxes, but it only makes sense to cut expenditures as well.
    If you kill enough of them they stop fighting - Gen. Curtis Lemay
    Fear the KKM

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