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Titan Rebalance 2012 - "Move the goalposts closer, I can't score"

  1. This is harsh. Evaluate me
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    It would appear the Goon Blob has finally won eve... \o/ Personally I welcome our new Goon overlords and wish them a pleasant stay

    by CCP Greyscale


    Hi everyone,

    We're not happy with the effectiveness of large groups of titans against subcapital ships, so we're making some adjustments to titans and to XL turrets.

    This is a quick, surgical adjustment to solve a specific issue we have identified. It's not a general titan balance pass, and we don't consider titans "done" after this change. Titans will require significant further changes, and probably an overall adjustment in role, before they're in a place where we're really happy with them. This will require a reasonably significant amount of work, which we unfortunately don't have the spare resources for right now. In a similar vein, we're not making more extensive balance changes (or addressing this issue in a more technically complex way) because we're allocating the minimum resources needed to resolve the specific issue (titans performing excessively well against subcaps in certain circumstances) satisfactorily. If you have any further questions about this paragraph, please ask away

    For the immediate future and until such time as we have the resources available to do a comprehensive overhaul, we want to ensure that titans perform decently against other capitals, but do not represent a serious threat to subcaps. We want titans to have clear vulnerabilities, and as much as possible to have them acting in support of the main capital/subcap fleet rather than the other way round. We've already prevented doomsdays from being fired at subcaps, and this adjustment should continue that trend.

    We have talked to the CSM about this, and we're comfortable going forward with these changes in light of that discussion. I'm not going to put words in their mouths, though.


    Specific changes being made:

    XL turret tracking halved, siege module tracking penalty removed

    This should generally make titan performance against small targets significantly worse, without seriously impacting their effectiveness against larger targets, or negatively impacting dreadnaughts in their common use-case (ie, in siege mode).

    Titans reduced to 3 maximum locked targets, and base scan resolution reduced to 5

    This should make trying to engage smaller targets very inefficient, due to long lock-times and an inability to queue many targets at once. This reinforces the titan's MO as a slow-acting but hard-hitting platform (in line with the doomsday's huge damage and 10 minute RoF). The scan res number is balanced around multiple Cormack's sensor boosters, on the assumption that money is not a limiting factor for titan pilots, and therefore that people will shell out for officer SBs if that lets them continue do this kind of thing. Our understanding is that this isn't standard practice right now, but we have to balance for expected behavior after the change, and for worst-case scenarios.

    Expected release schedule for these changes

    These changes should hit TQ some time in April. If there is a sizable release in April then expect them to turn up then; if not then we'll announce deployment dates for these changes closer to the time.




    Changes considered and discarded:

    (I'm expecting at least three people to not read the word "discarded" and make angry posts about something in this section. C'est la vie.)

    Titans can't lock subcaps at all

    Guaranteed effective solution, but we considered it too hacky and restrictive.

    Adding a "minimum sig radius" attribute to turrets, below which damage would fall off regardless of tracking

    Too big a change and more technical work than we actually needed to solve the problem.

    Changing the lock time formula

    As it is, the lock time formula doesn't really scale in a nice way between battleships and capitals (the kink in the curve always happens around cruisers regardless of the scan res and sig radius), but again we decided we could solve the issue without resorting to this sort of technical work.

    Changing XL missiles to match

    While in a strictly regimented world we ought in principle to nerf XL missiles and remove the penalties from the siege module for them too, in practice they're not actually a problem due to the way missile damage scales against small targets. Leaving them unchanged also serves to differentiate missiles further from turrets, which might make them more useful on capitals under certain circumstances.
    [B][U]Propolis[/U][/B] - D00M - Northern Coalition.

  2. Pre-Person
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    Got a link to the source of this?

    nvm, found it: https://forums.eveonline.com/default...=posts&t=80374

  3. What Good Is a Glass Dagger? Ricky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tropic9 View Post
    Got a link to the source of this?
    https://forums.eveonline.com/default...=posts&t=80374

  4. The Idiot Bastard Son Internet Spaceships's Avatar
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    Christ what a shitty title.

  5. Did you ever in your puff see such a perfect perisher? Endie's Avatar
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    In a fortnight of bad OPs this one may actually be the shittiest.

  6. Adjustment Team space4sale's Avatar
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    so What will be new counter to 1000 nap fest fleet? A 2000 fleet nap fest?

  7. God is dead. They found his carcass in 2019.. jimmychrist's Avatar
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    Nuke this thread, keep the serious discussion thread.

  8. This is harsh. Evaluate me
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    Discussing how Goons have won eve cannot be a serious discussion imo!
    [B][U]Propolis[/U][/B] - D00M - Northern Coalition.

  9. King of Space The Mittani's Avatar
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    a bloo bloo bloo

    (get out)
    [twitter]themittani[/twitter]

  10. This is harsh. Evaluate me
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    \o/ the rage is strong

    Shitposting from work is moderately entertaining... 3.5h to go
    [B][U]Propolis[/U][/B] - D00M - Northern Coalition.

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    Coming out of lurking to comment on the bad going on. So much bad.

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    Are all [s]raidendot[/s] ncdot posters this bad/mad?

  13. "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." Yang Wenli's Avatar
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    Titans are the one ship class that CCP has never done right.

    Every incarnation has had such a terrible effect on the game, that I have honestly been praying all along that CCP would just provide a mineral refund to their owners and delete the entire hull-class.

    That said, this dev post gave me a huge amount of hope for the future. Like super-carriers, titans will now fit squarely now in the role of "anti-capital" warfare, instead of being anti-everything.

    I think they are right to say that, down the road, titans need a complete revision and a new role, but for now this will go a long way to addressing the current issues causes by titan blobs in 0.0 warfare.

  14. This is harsh. Evaluate me
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanloch View Post
    Are all [s]raidendot[/s] ncdot posters this bad/mad?
    Mostly just me when I'm at work. When I'm at home I'm a totally different animal!
    [B][U]Propolis[/U][/B] - D00M - Northern Coalition.

  15. King Dong Manny's Avatar
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    When your ahead of the game you are untouchable NBD NBD NBD CCP made a huge error in the change not gonna point it out but the game is afoot gentleman.

  16. Inconstant Moon John Caffeine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yang Wenli View Post
    Titans are the one ship class that CCP has never done right.

    Every incarnation has had such a terrible effect on the game, that I have honestly been praying all along that CCP would just provide a mineral refund to their owners and delete the entire hull-class.

    That said, this dev post gave me a huge amount of hope for the future. Like super-carriers, titans will now fit squarely now in the role of "anti-capital" warfare, instead of being anti-everything.

    I think they are right to say that, down the road, titans need a complete revision and a new role, but for now this will go a long way to addressing the current issues causes by titan blobs in 0.0 warfare.
    They won't be great at killing cap fleets either, appart from the DD every 10 minutes, which is hardly worth risking your 100b isk ship for when a 20b isk supercarrier will do the job better. Titans haven't really been given a role of "anti-capital" warfare, they're worse at that than they used to as well.

    Besides, how often do you see large capital fleets around except to rep tracking titans or rep/rf structures?

  17. Inconstant Moon MartCo's Avatar
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    From the frontlines of CCP-US system, reaction to the titan changes:

    (bigger picture: http://i.imgur.com/Qg93X.jpg)


  18. Super Moderator ihaveahelmet's Avatar
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    Manny won eve.


    Richter_Belmont: under Article 14, section 88, paragraph 420 of the B0Tl0rd Accord, it says "you're gay LOL pwned"

  19. This is harsh. Evaluate me
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    It would appear the EVE-O forums are up and down like hell due to rage overload
    [B][U]Propolis[/U][/B] - D00M - Northern Coalition.

  20. Shoot blues, Tell Vile Rat. Vile rat's Avatar
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    This is a temp. stopgap fix because ccp finally acknowledge that subcaps aren't being blapped because every single one of them mysteriously flies directly at titans as some have claimed, but instead because titans scale really poorly when you have masses of them and the implemented brake for titans shooting small ships (transversal) is thrown out the window when you have to maintain transversal to blobs of the fucking things.

    So for a period of time you won't be able to rely on this one class of ships to take on subcap fleets. I'd adjust your thinking honestly because I doubt they'll nerf titans tracking, limit subcaps for dd's, and take away AOE dd just to put in some mechanism to shoot subcaps again. They will be redesigned with an actual role in mind instead of the patchwork bullshit we've been dealing with for the past few years and that's the right move in my opinion.

  21. Glimmung jeffraider's Avatar
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    so what is the counter to having 1000 duders in maelstroms

    rofl jk n1 mittani
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  22. The Idiot Bastard Son Kanloch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffraider View Post
    so what is the counter to having 1000 duders in maelstroms

    rofl jk n1 mittani

    200 falcons.

  23. "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." Yang Wenli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Caffeine View Post
    They won't be great at killing cap fleets either, appart from the DD every 10 minutes, which is hardly worth risking your 100b isk ship for when a 20b isk supercarrier will do the job better. Titans haven't really been given a role of "anti-capital" warfare, they're worse at that than they used to as well.

    Besides, how often do you see large capital fleets around except to rep tracking titans or rep/rf structures?
    The reason you never see 'cap fleets' anymore is because super-cap fleets made them obsolete post-Dominion.

    Why siege a dread when you can launch bombers that never run out of ammo while staying at full jump-cap?

    It isn't even just about structure killing or anti-capital warfare, supers were also better at handling support. This was especially true when you could DD sub-caps, but tracking-fit titans and sentry-launching super-carriers were also effective when used well.

    Now that supers lack a strong ability to combat sub-caps, it might make sense for the "we want to beat 1000 people with 300 people" types to try and use carriers more often.

    Look at what PL did in C-J, they popped many Tengus doing exactly this.

    After the super nerfs, using carriers to escalate sub-cap fights is really a great way for 0.0 battles to "build up" in my view.

    One side bring sub-caps and starts to win, so the other side uses carriers to counter the incoming dps. This might result in a dread counter-drop, which might in-turn lead to a super-carrier + titan drop, and so forth.

    Doesn't that sound more awesome than one side not even committing sub-caps because they will just die to titans?

  24. God is dead. They found his carcass in 2019.. Opti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vile rat View Post
    This is a temp. stopgap fix because ccp finally acknowledge that subcaps aren't being blapped because every single one of them mysteriously flies directly at titans as some have claimed, but instead because titans scale really poorly when you have masses of them and the implemented brake for titans shooting small ships (transversal) is thrown out the window when you have to maintain transversal to blobs of the fucking things.

    So for a period of time you won't be able to rely on this one class of ships to take on subcap fleets. I'd adjust your thinking honestly because I doubt they'll nerf titans tracking, limit subcaps for dd's, and take away AOE dd just to put in some mechanism to shoot subcaps again. They will be redesigned with an actual role in mine instead of the patchwork bullshit we've been dealing with for the past few years and that's the right move in my opinion.
    this

    someone is always going to blappable over and over and over again

    how is that different that just straight locking up 5 people and killing them 1 by 1

    bad mechanics is not an excuse

  25. God is dead. They found his carcass in 2019.. Some Generally Awesome Dude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yang Wenli View Post
    Doesn't that sound more awesome than one side not even committing sub-caps because they will just die to titans?
    That's how it is intended to play out imo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Propolis View Post
    It would appear the Goon Blob has finally won eve...
    You can put the trophy over there, among the other ones.

  27. Glimmung jeffraider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vile rat View Post
    This is a temp. stopgap fix because ccp finally acknowledge that subcaps aren't being blapped because every single one of them mysteriously flies directly at titans as some have claimed, but instead because titans scale really poorly when you have masses of them and the implemented brake for titans shooting small ships (transversal) is thrown out the window when you have to maintain transversal to blobs of the fucking things.

    So for a period of time you won't be able to rely on this one class of ships to take on subcap fleets. I'd adjust your thinking honestly because I doubt they'll nerf titans tracking, limit subcaps for dd's, and take away AOE dd just to put in some mechanism to shoot subcaps again. They will be redesigned with an actual role in mind instead of the patchwork bullshit we've been dealing with for the past few years and that's the right move in my opinion.
    yeah this seems reasonable only 40 seconds to lock a dread rofl

    TITANS NOW HAVE A ROLE OF SUPER SLOW DOOMSDAY DEVICES THAT COST 100B AND ARE WORSE THAN A MOROS

    ADJUSTING THINKING NOW
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  28. Glimmung jeffraider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Opti View Post
    this

    someone is always going to blappable over and over and over again

    how is that different that just straight locking up 5 people and killing them 1 by 1

    bad mechanics is not an excuse
    you are yet again confirming yourself to be a dumb piece of shit

    lol
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  29. King of Space The Mittani's Avatar
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    are you trying to make me feel guilty with these posts, or just more smug, i'm confused

    fwiw greyscale and i can barely exchange a civil word and this wasn't a ~mittens metagame~ thing but i'm absolutely delighted to take all the credit you guys are giving me
    [twitter]themittani[/twitter]

  30. God is dead. They found his carcass in 2019.. Opti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffraider View Post
    you are yet again confirming yourself to be a dumb piece of shit

    lol
    PL can still hotdrop lone supercaps ratting tho j3ffr41d3r

    Y R U SO MAD ALL THE TIME

    is it because you just got SHIT ALL OVER HOHO



    e: hey jeff SHAME ABOUT THAT AMAKAKE GATE CAMP LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLolololo lolOOOLOLOLololol

  31. Glimmung jeffraider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Mittani View Post
    are you trying to make me feel guilty with these posts, or just more smug, i'm confused

    fwiw greyscale and i can barely exchange a civil word and this wasn't a ~mittens metagame~ thing but i'm absolutely delighted to take all the credit you guys are giving me
    what do you think of these changes?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  32. The Idiot Bastard Son Kanloch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Mittani View Post
    are you trying to make me feel guilty with these posts, or just more smug, i'm confused

    fwiw greyscale and i can barely exchange a civil word and this wasn't a ~mittens metagame~ thing but i'm absolutely delighted to take all the credit you guys are giving me


    That must mean this is just a greyscale publicity stunt

  33. Shoot blues, Tell Vile Rat. Vile rat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffraider View Post
    yeah this seems reasonable only 40 seconds to lock a dread rofl

    TITANS NOW HAVE A ROLE OF SUPER SLOW DOOMSDAY DEVICES THAT COST 100B AND ARE WORSE THAN A MOROS

    ADJUSTING THINKING NOW
    40s lock time vs dreads isn't going to be a big game changer either way. Sorta feels like that wasn't the intent of the change though to be fair.

  34. Glimmung jeffraider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vile rat View Post
    40s lock time vs dreads isn't going to be a big game changer either way. Sorta feels like that wasn't the intent of the change though to be fair.
    haha holy shit m8 reread what you just wrote
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  35. God is dead. They found his carcass in 2019.. Opti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffraider View Post
    haha holy shit m8 reread what you just wrote
    40s until you lose half your dreads

    SUCKS BUT ILL TAKE IT

  36. King of Space The Mittani's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffraider View Post
    what do you think of these changes?
    i think we're going to buy up firesaled titans like madmen and keep pooping them out as fast as we can
    [twitter]themittani[/twitter]

  37. Glimmung jeffraider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Mittani View Post
    i think we're going to buy up firesaled titans like madmen and keep pooping them out as fast as we can
    /o\
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  38. This is harsh. Evaluate me
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    And in the epic battle of CCP webservers vs epic rage...

    Epic Rage WINS!!

    This site is currently undergoing maintenance.We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause.
    [B][U]Propolis[/U][/B] - D00M - Northern Coalition.

  39. God is dead. They found his carcass in 2019.. Opti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Mittani View Post
    i think we're going to buy up firesaled titans like madmen and keep pooping them out as fast as we can
    good choice oh dear leader

    i see that your critical thinking is elevated, these lower scrubs don't know bout dem capital sov warfare thingies

  40. King Dong Manny's Avatar
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    Im not so bothered by the change but I think the lock time needs to be adjusted from the suggested change so they can still fill the role as cap/supercap killers. Titans need to be able to lock dreads/carriers/supercarriers/titans faster than the suggested change other than that I have no arguments.


    Too address the dudes (CFC) that are smashing the F5 key awaiting tears here is my retort:


    Plebs will always be plebs cowards will always be cowards you can't boost nerf that. We will still have our pound of flesh as always just the utensils in which we devour it will change somewhat. For titan owners the change sucks dick but the battlefield has already evolved. CCP Greyscale made a critical error in this change and it will be hilarious when its exploited.

  41. King of Space The Mittani's Avatar
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    well, someone had to write the first puppetmasta post of this bad thread, thanks for taking one for the team manny
    [twitter]themittani[/twitter]

  42. The Idiot Bastard Son Kanloch's Avatar
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    Why don't you tell us about this alleged exploit instead of smugging about it in every thread.

  43. The Theory and Practice of Time Travel Kitty Vintner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evilweasel
    SA crosspost

  44. Glimmung jeffraider's Avatar
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    TITANS ARE THE BEST SHIPS IN THE GAME THAT CAN DOOMSDAY BRO
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  45. King Dong Manny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Mittani View Post
    well, someone had to write the first puppetmasta post of this bad thread, thanks for taking one for the team manny

    You should be happy Mittens you got a nice victory here. Unfortunately however this change is of no real consequence when your alliance has a avg skillpoints of 74m sp.

  46. The Theory and Practice of Time Travel Kitty Vintner's Avatar
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    Keep rollin wit da punches manny B)

  47. King Dong Manny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanloch View Post
    Why don't you tell us about this alleged exploit instead of smugging about it in every thread.
    What would be the fun in that

  48. Glimmung jeffraider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manny View Post
    You should be happy Mittens you got a nice victory here. Unfortunately however this change is of no real consequence when your alliance has a avg skillpoints of 74m sp.
    THAT'S MORE THAN MY MAIN FUCK
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  49. Scammer
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    i kind of get the idea that we're not absolutely awful at this game

  50. Glimmung jeffraider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister McTag View Post
    i kind of get the idea that we're not absolutely awful at this game
    that is an awesome conclusion to draw m8
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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