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New Devblog; rebalancing eve, one ship at a time

  1. God is dead. They found his carcass in 2019.. Raketefrau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viribus View Post
    They should just remove caldari from the game and refund all caldari SP
    I can almost see your point, but Falcon.

    And that other one, the ship noone uses, what's it called? Named after a duck or some such crap.

    Oh, yeah, Drake.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raketefrau View Post
    I can almost see your point, but Falcon.

    And that other one, the ship noone uses, what's it called? Named after a duck or some such crap.

    Oh, yeah, Drake.
    Tengu and Crow are pretty neat too.

    Scorpion's not bad either.

  3. The Mote in God's Eye Elenor Pewpew's Avatar
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    Let's not forget the Eagle ahahahhahahhaha . Actually, I might buy a few of them in hope that they get rebalanced. Right guys?

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    Yes definitely do that before they rebalance tech

  5. Inconstant Moon John Caffeine's Avatar
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    So I guess it's time to train BC 5 and all cruisers to 4 so I get all racial BCs to 5?

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Caffeine View Post
    So I guess it's time to train BC 5 and all cruisers to 4 so I get all racial BCs to 5?
    Free SP, good enough for me!
    Mfume Apocal - Origin. - Black Legion.

  7. God is dead. They found his carcass in 2019.. jimmychrist's Avatar
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    Here's to getting bumped up to a new clone bracket just to be able to fly what I already can!

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    Did you notice they slipped in a drake nerf there?

    • Bombardment ships: provide heavy fire support to pin the enemy down with constant barrage of ordnance. Have great damage and range, average defense and mobility. Can be compared to artillery. EVE examples: Raven, Drake, caracal.
    So the drake and raven get 'great damage' and 'average defense.' Let the carebear howling begin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Caffeine View Post
    So I guess it's time to train BC 5 and all cruisers to 4 so I get all racial BCs to 5?

    From what I understand though, they are just going to make sure you can fly the ships, perhaps not be as skilled in them as you were before. I think they were more talking about people that trained T2 BCs and would have to train a Racial BC skill to 5 to be able to get back into a T2 BC. Not sure what they will do for people that have just Cruiser4/BC5 trained. Perhaps they will just give you enough SP for BC 4 for each racial you have BS trained for.

    Will be a mess though.

  10. Don't try to solve serious matters in the middle of the night Viribus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gyncognito View Post
    Did you notice they slipped in a drake nerf there?



    So the drake and raven get 'great damage' and 'average defense.' Let the carebear howling begin.
    They also characterize the ferox, maller, and caracal as having "great damage"

    CCP

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    Quote Originally Posted by Viribus View Post
    caracal as having "great damage"
    Bitches live in fear of the dual web assault launcher caracool.

    However I think the positive thing to take away is that they are continuing their re-balancing effort even though it may not be perfect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Viribus View Post
    They also characterize the ferox, maller, and caracal as having "great damage"

    CCP
    I suppose relative to the Moa, Auguror and Osprey?

  13. "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gyncognito View Post
    Did you notice they slipped in a drake nerf there?

    So the drake and raven get 'great damage' and 'average defense.' Let the carebear howling begin.
    I can get behind the drake change. Fuck the bears, if they are not flying tengus for whatever jewing they are using drake for then they are dumb.
    Ballancing ships by intended roles instead of tiers is also awesome. It will be fun to watch how theyll ballance tier 1-2 bc's compared to tier 3 thou

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    Quote Originally Posted by davetv View Post
    From what I understand though, they are just going to make sure you can fly the ships, perhaps not be as skilled in them as you were before. I think they were more talking about people that trained T2 BCs and would have to train a Racial BC skill to 5 to be able to get back into a T2 BC. Not sure what they will do for people that have just Cruiser4/BC5 trained. Perhaps they will just give you enough SP for BC 4 for each racial you have BS trained for.

    Will be a mess though.
    https://forums.eveonline.com/default...403#post908403
    Quote Originally Posted by CCP Ytterbium
    We may just bluntly give all four variants at V if you had battlecruiser V for example, or maybe require that you also add the relevant Cruiser skill trained at level 3 to be eligible. On the latter case, just don't train the cruiser 3 skill, and you should not receive the new racial battlecruiser at 5. Not sure why one would do that however, it's like skipping free candy or cake while visiting your grandma.
    • Example:
    • If we go for option 1: you will get Amarr, Caldari, Gallente and Minmatar Battlecruiser skills at 5 if you previously had the generic Battlecruiser skill at 5.
    • If we go for option 2: you will get Amarr Battlecruiser skill at 5 only if you previously fulfilled all conditions to fly Amarr Battlecruisers, which means having the generic Battlecruiser skill at 5, PLUS the Amarr Cruiser at 3.
    [I]spherical monkey fears and envies[/I]

  15. God is dead. They found his carcass in 2019.. Arrador's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilmar Keller View Post
    I suppose relative to the Moa, Auguror and Osprey?
    the Bloa actually does more damage then a caracal.
    [Arrador] possesses a considerable understanding of ship configurations, strengths and weakness. He gives clear and purposeful instructions, is good at taking advantage of the fleet-composition he's dealt, and never loses sight of the main goal: fun. This, paired with an excellent tolerance for strong drink gives him an almost Churchillian capability to win, despite being completely pissed on booze most of the fleet operation.

  16. Impostor
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    Maybe instead if reimbursing skill points they could just give everyone a free monocle?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arrador View Post
    the Bloa actually does more damage then a caracal.
    Notice that I compared Moa to Ferox, Auguror to Maller, and Osprey to Caracal.

    Unless the Bloa somehow does more damage than the Ferox, which wouldn't really shock me but kind of would.

  18. How to Build a Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days Later El Space Mariachi's Avatar
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    I'd like to go on the record to say I love the Moa

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    Quote Originally Posted by Don Peyote View Post
    I'd like to go on the record to say I love the Moa
    It's one of the few T1s that can actually take on its T2 counterpart and win.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilmar Keller View Post
    It's one of the few T1s that can actually take on its T2 counterpart and win.
    That's because the Eagle sucks penis. Ironically enough, it'd have serious problems against a buffer or large booster Onyx or not even be able scratch a purger Onyx's paint.
    Mfume Apocal - Origin. - Black Legion.

  21. God is dead. They found his carcass in 2019.. Raketefrau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mfume View Post
    That's because the Eagle sucks penis.
    Welcome to tonight's episode of "explain the joke."

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    Soooo, I guess now's a great time to train BC V?

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    Summer's coming.

  24. God is dead. They found his carcass in 2019.. jimmychrist's Avatar
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    BC5 was always a damn good choice

  25. King Dong Manny's Avatar
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    wts 12 drake bpos maxed me/pe

  26. The Theory and Practice of Teleportation Deniera's Avatar
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    ¨we will begin revamping ship classes one after the other¨ = we will be rebalancing one ship class for the expansion but dont hold your breath after that.

  27. Inconstant Moon
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    Their tier system is stupid. Their new organization system with skills is stupider.

    Turn all the ship piloting skills into generics, then add expensive racial skills that unlock specific ship types.

    So instead of splitting BC into four skills, merge the other skills into stuff like BC.

    Say you want to fly an amarr frigate, you train Amarr Piloting to I and Frigates to like 3 or whatever, now you can pilot a Punisher. You get bored of that and want to fly a Rifter, all you need to train is Minmatar Piloting I.

    Racial Piloting I-V: Frig/Dest/Cruis/BC/BS
    Adv Racial Piloting I: Carrier/Dread/Freighter
    ARP III: Super
    ARP V: Titan


    Oh hey it's like way simpler and less fucking stupid. Of course some people might max out on skills. To which I say: who the fuck cares, so what, they reached max level grats, stop being sperging whiny retards about it they can still progress socially, isk wise and ~spaceempire~ wise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeon221 View Post
    stuff
    I think you missed the whole fucking point of the changes: It's to encourage training up a specific race by giving each ship class useful ships for DPS, support, e-war, etc. I'm actually looking forward to the concept of a 'support' BC.

  29. Inconstant Moon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilmar Keller View Post
    I think you missed the whole fucking point of the changes: It's to encourage training up a specific race by giving each ship class useful ships for DPS, support, e-war, etc. I'm actually looking forward to the concept of a 'support' BC.
    Yes but I hate it and think it does a crappy job at getting to that goal. If they explicitly include a Racial Piloting skill, they can fine tune how long they want it to take to get into a different group of ships. They can also include stuff like Sleeper Technology Usage if they want to skill gate t3s etc. Stuff like weapons aren't shared, stuff like support skills and gunnery/missiles are, it's basically a crapshoot so why not hulls as well?

    Meh. The best thing about the current system is how easily you can get all the stuff you need to train for various racial BCs. The worst part is the grinding up the tree just to get the one thing you want.

  30. "It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane"
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    What aeon is refering to is the skill system in perpetuum where you have racial robot control which unlocks different sizes of robot, and a general robot command skill which improves your robot 's bonus(es). Idk about others but I had no idea which race I wanted to fly starting out, ended up trying all of the racial BCs until I found one I like and skilled from there. It strikes me as epicly retarded to force newbies to train for the intermediate classes like destroyers when at present you don't get a taste of what the race is like until you hit BCs, to say nothing of the present balencing conundrum where the first ship you actually feel effective in as a newbie is your first battlecruiser...

  31. Becalmed in Hell Matos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gershwin View Post
    What aeon is refering to is the skill system in perpetuum where you have racial robot control which unlocks different sizes of robot, and a general robot command skill which improves your robot 's bonus(es). Idk about others but I had no idea which race I wanted to fly starting out, ended up trying all of the racial BCs until I found one I like and skilled from there. It strikes me as epicly retarded to force newbies to train for the intermediate classes like destroyers when at present you don't get a taste of what the race is like until you hit BCs, to say nothing of the present balencing conundrum where the first ship you actually feel effective in as a newbie is your first battlecruiser...
    Unless you happen to fly Minmatar. Then the first effective Ships is a Rifter

    But i can see how a System like this would make more sense. But then its as much about making a useful system as it is to make people train longer I guess.

  32. The Fourth Profession teds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arrador View Post
    the Bloa actually does more damage then a caracal.
    if we ignore cap, range and agility then yes, the bloa does do something

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    if this actually happens then ccp will have to do the unthinkable and rebalance ships

    this means ships like the inquisitor and the breacher might be useful

  34. God is dead. They found his carcass in 2019.. Malcanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gyncognito View Post
    Did you notice they slipped in a drake nerf there?



    So the drake and raven get 'great damage' and 'average defense.' Let the carebear howling begin.
    Ravens do have pretty average tanking ability for battleships. Carebears putting deadspace boosters and 7 cap mods on them is all that gives them that "all tank no gank" rep.

    The "NewDrake" that was proposed (5% RoF, 10% missile velocity) would be a change in this direction, and also it would be superawesome, not a "nerf". Well, a nerf if your idea of fun is sitting there like a damage-sponge, with no damage mods while you plink HMLs. Superawesome if you like actually flying your ship and doing DPS.

  35. "It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane"
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    The HAM Drake will be amazing after that buff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by General Cartman Lee View Post
    The HAM Drake will be amazing after that buff.
    HAMS will still be shit on a Drake because the range is hilaribad even with a 50% range buff.

    The big difference will be in choosing your damage type, but losing 25% resists across the board

  38. "It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilmar Keller View Post
    HAMS will still be shit on a Drake because the range is hilaribad even with a 50% range buff.

    The big difference will be in choosing your damage type, but losing 25% resists across the board
    A PODLA-style nano drake with HAMs will definitely not be shit.

  39. Don't try to solve serious matters in the middle of the night Viribus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by General Cartman Lee View Post
    A PODLA-style nano drake with HAMs will definitely not be shit.
    Actually it will for several reasons:

    1. PODLA drakes are only really good with loki links, where a standard T2 point will outrange even velocity-bonused HAMs. Not only that but being able to shoot out to 65km+ is really important if you're trying to get tackle off a fleetmate on the other side of the gate or otherwise far away from you. Being able to shoot past point range is really important in a nano gang.

    2. HAMs have a shitty explosion radius (125 for HAMs versus 94 for heavies) and wind up doing less damage to tackle, even if it's double-webbed. Furthermore they also do about the same DPS versus fast cruisers, again because of the relationship between explosion radius and explosion velocity; the greater the sig radius compared to the explosion radius, the greater the effective bonus to explosion velocity. This is why HML drakes still do good damage against 2.6km/s vagas and shit. The only real advantage of HAM drakes would be for brawling down battleships and other battlecruisers, which is definitely not what you want to use a PODLA drake for, and would be even less worthwhile if/when the resist bonus gets removed.

    3. Fitting issues. You need shield upgrades V and AWU V AND a 1% grid implant to fit a nano ham drake with a meta 4 LSE, while a HML drake can fit a T2 LSE with like 100 grid left over.

  40. Inconstant Moon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilmar Keller View Post
    I think you missed the whole fucking point of the changes: It's to encourage training up a specific race by giving each ship class useful ships for DPS, support, e-war, etc. I'm actually looking forward to the concept of a 'support' BC.
    Looking at my earlier answer, I don't think I responded correctly to your point so I'll give it another go. I have no problem with them making specific types. I have a problem with them reinforcing the racial split even further.

    If I can drive manual, it doesn't matter if that car is American or British. I will need to get used to doing things in a British car where everything is on the other side, but it'll still be a car and still be manual shift. That's what I'm asking them for. A system where you can specialize in frigates by training into frigates + minmatar, and then take that accrued SP and apply at least some of it to Amarr frigates. You'd still have to train up Amarr Piloting and Amarr Weaponz, but you'd have Frigate Piloting down. It's simpler, it's easier to understand and it's less brutal to newbies because it gives them more ability to cross train for early game trying out of stuff.

    I think it's better to put time sink skills out in the minor elements of the skill tree. +1% damage per level skills that take forever to train and suchlike makes a much better SP repository than basic necessary stuff like piloting ships.

    tl;dr I want to de-emphasize the racial element and promote the class and role element. CCP wants to emphasize the racial element.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeon221 View Post
    Looking at my earlier answer, I don't think I responded correctly to your point so I'll give it another go. I have no problem with them making specific types. I have a problem with them reinforcing the racial split even further.

    If I can drive manual, it doesn't matter if that car is American or British. I will need to get used to doing things in a British car where everything is on the other side, but it'll still be a car and still be manual shift. That's what I'm asking them for. A system where you can specialize in frigates by training into frigates + minmatar, and then take that accrued SP and apply at least some of it to Amarr frigates. You'd still have to train up Amarr Piloting and Amarr Weaponz, but you'd have Frigate Piloting down. It's simpler, it's easier to understand and it's less brutal to newbies because it gives them more ability to cross train for early game trying out of stuff.

    I think it's better to put time sink skills out in the minor elements of the skill tree. +1% damage per level skills that take forever to train and suchlike makes a much better SP repository than basic necessary stuff like piloting ships.

    tl;dr I want to de-emphasize the racial element and promote the class and role element. CCP wants to emphasize the racial element.
    I like this idea best myself, but it seems CCP is leaning the other way. vOv

  42. "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeon221 View Post
    Looking at my earlier answer, I don't think I responded correctly to your point so I'll give it another go. I have no problem with them making specific types. I have a problem with them reinforcing the racial split even further.

    If I can drive manual, it doesn't matter if that car is American or British. I will need to get used to doing things in a British car where everything is on the other side, but it'll still be a car and still be manual shift. That's what I'm asking them for. A system where you can specialize in frigates by training into frigates + minmatar, and then take that accrued SP and apply at least some of it to Amarr frigates. You'd still have to train up Amarr Piloting and Amarr Weaponz, but you'd have Frigate Piloting down. It's simpler, it's easier to understand and it's less brutal to newbies because it gives them more ability to cross train for early game trying out of stuff.

    I think it's better to put time sink skills out in the minor elements of the skill tree. +1% damage per level skills that take forever to train and suchlike makes a much better SP repository than basic necessary stuff like piloting ships.

    tl;dr I want to de-emphasize the racial element and promote the class and role element. CCP wants to emphasize the racial element.
    I'm not sure it matters too much whether you emphasize roles or races, but I'd agree that its important to give new players options. I can still remember starting out in the game, and the feeling that it takes so long to be effective in anything. The general advice is always to specialize in something, but that doesn't always make for fun gameplay. There should be a way for new players to at least have a few options quite early on in the game. It seems the way CCP wants to go is to buff some T1 ships, so when you train Minmatar Frigate for example, you get three useful hulls rather than one. If it works, it might actually be better for new guys than making cross training easier, since you wouldn't have to train multiple weapons systems to get those extra options (Except you would, cos the Breacher uses missiles ). On the other hand, your system would have the advantage of letting players sample the playstyles of the different races more easily.

    So basically theres advantages to both methods, and I don't know which I'd prefer v0v

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    Introducing ship lines

    That is why we want to remove ship tiers altogether, then refocus our balancing philosophy to be based on role. That means finding common themes, or lines that fit ships with the same purpose, then adjusting slot layout, HP and fittings within each class to support this goal.


    Combat ships: designed for direct fights, such vessels are usually found spear heading an attack force, or sniping from long range. Have great damage and defense, but poor mobility. A good representation would be 18th century "ships of the line". EVE examples: Abaddon, Rokh, Hyperion, Maelstrom, Ferox, Maller.

    Attack vessels: Made for hit and run assault, or flanking opportunities. Have great damage and mobility, but average defense. Similar in role with cavalry. EVE examples: Armageddon, Megathron, Tempest, Oracle, Thorax, Hurricane, Dominix, Myrmidon.

    Bombardment ships: provide heavy fire support to pin the enemy down with constant barrage of ordnance. Have great damage and range, average defense and mobility. Can be compared to artillery. EVE examples: Raven, Drake, caracal.

    Support vessels: mainly focused on assisting a friendly force, or disrupting an enemy fleet. Have average damage, poor defense, average mobility. Electronic warfare is the prime illustration of this line. EVE examples: Scorpion, Blackbird, Celestis, Arbitrator.
    I get what they're saying here, but these roles don't map well at all to the actual reality of EVE gameplay. For instance, they mention stuff like flanking and pinning down enemies and suchlike that have no relevance in a game where cover does not exist and direction to target is immaterial.

    I'm not really super up to date on modern fleet comps, but I do know what is and isn't part of the game.

    If it were possible to dynamically generate 'terrain,' some of this stuff could enter the game. This isn't actual terrain; we're not talking trees and rocks here. But it does deform the "landscape" of the grid in ways that could be tactically interesting. The game already has mud in the form of bubbles, and forts in the form of POS. But it's lacking cover, an essential feature for suppression. If people can't be forced to choose between surviving and shooting, they can't be suppressed.

    The firewall stuff people were using for a while (still using?) was pretty nifty. The barrier it created to incoming missile fire gave the game an interesting deformation of terrain in a manner that aided the side receiving fire if they were able to use it properly.

    Imagine a ship can crap out (semi-permeable) shield bubbles and (impermeable but breakable) walls in the same way a hic can crap out bubbles or infinipoint (NB: it could even be a support ship module). The mere existence of such things creates an incentive to attack from multiple directions.

    Or imagine a "mist" that does not hide a group of ships from on grid targeting, but makes them incredibly difficult (impossible?) to scan down. This alone would make sniping almost viable again.


    Obviously I'm just tossing ideas out there. Thing is, when I look at bubbles and how much interesting gameplay they cause I can't help but wonder what other interesting gameplay we'd get out of the ability to greater deform the flat and featureless terrain of space.

  44. Animal Kingdom tgr's Avatar
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    Aeon221: You should really toss that into Stoffer's inbox or something, if you haven't already.
    Turning pretend colourblind angels from spaceship to madship samurais, one post at a time.

  45. Legitimate Rape Baby
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    I'm hoping they follow this through to gunnery. If I'm going to spec in BS, should I really have to become an expert in small guns? Make them level 4 to progress to the next size and level 5 for T-2.

  46. Inconstant Moon
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    Quote Originally Posted by tgr View Post
    Aeon221: You should really toss that into Stoffer's inbox or something, if you haven't already.
    Honestly not a bad idea. If you have some sort of contact info for him I guess I could, or I could make a throw away blog and link him it on twitter (so that he doesn't have to be leik OMG KUGUTSUMEN AVOID AVOID).

    edit: Or someone else could do it, idgaf. I'm just shitting out ideas.

  47. Legitimate Rape Baby
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    Nice ideas Aeon. I'd lofe a terrain change like the cloud in Star Trek II. it would be fun for soloers in splitting up small groups of ships because they'd only be able to see a few dozen KM or so.

  48. Becalmed in Hell Matos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manfred Hideous View Post
    Nice ideas Aeon. I'd lofe a terrain change like the cloud in Star Trek II. it would be fun for soloers in splitting up small groups of ships because they'd only be able to see a few dozen KM or so.
    Then we would finally be at Submarines online. (Its a great idea though, and I would totally train a Proteus for [s]submersion[/s] immersion reasons.)

  49. Animal Kingdom tgr's Avatar
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    Actually, one of the main problems I just thought of wrt the shield thing etc, is that it would add more load to the servers. To be fair, missiles etc do this now, so I'm sure we can live with one LOS hit calculation pr volley, but it's just something to keep in mind regarding the case. I still think it could be worthwhile to look into just because of the tactical possibilities/demands it'd add, etc.
    Turning pretend colourblind angels from spaceship to madship samurais, one post at a time.

  50. God is dead. They found his carcass in 2019.. Raketefrau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manfred Hideous View Post
    Nice ideas Aeon. I'd lofe a terrain change like the cloud in Star Trek II. it would be fun for soloers in splitting up small groups of ships because they'd only be able to see a few dozen KM or so.
    Never saw Star Trek II, but the idea of a deployable cloud is pretty sweet. Some sort of nanotech thing that could provide cover by delaying enemy targeting if you're on the right side of it, or does small amounts of damage if you're in it (eats cap, munches shields, whatever)...

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