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Titan Changes

  1. Naturally I finished my set Stronke's Avatar
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    Manny had sex??
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  2. Don't stop posting! Grath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fpshacker View Post
    PL was good back when it had good men like viper shizzie. I mean how can you deny PL doesn't just want risk free pvp and super cap ganks. If PL didn't want risk free pvp, then the whole alliance wouldn't be sitting in amamake right now smartbombing noob ships and shuttle with titans. Maybe im wrong, I guess thats how 1337 pvp works right?
    Yea man, that Solar campaign sure was easy mode.

    The funny bit is, you say we're shit, but we kicked you out, so you're not even good enough to hang out with shit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vile rat View Post
    I know you want to do this, but why should you be able to do this? Do you think that isk spent should = success in combat?
    This is a loaded question, because if somebody asks you why they shouldn't be able to do it, you have no factual reason as to why that should be, even though thats all Titans have ever done, thats exactly what they were designed to do from the day of release.

    I mean, they're getting nerfed, but lets keep the bullshit somewhere in perspective here.

    Titans aren't keeping new players out of the game, nerfing titans will have 0 effect on new player retention, most newbies won't see them for years.

    Endie makes it out like Goons are the only newbie friendly in game, even though PL has had a newbie training corp with virtually no limit on skill points where we take our own newbies and even old guys and remake them in the way we want.

    And then theres Mittani, posting up a storm about how we should all be ashamed since this is our fault. HAHA, we're in a war game, and we were left with a weapon, that we used. Now you're all trying to take some gay ass high ground like you didn't build titans because they were bad for the game, as if the health of the game ever crosses your minds when making a choice. You're not green energy hippies here, you were fools for not taking advantage of every asset the game had to offer your military, and to fix what you fucked up 2 years ago, your answer was to simply bitch until it was made into a non issue.

    Now you're all smugged up because the words 'titan nerf' saw print, only, everybody who's not an over emotional little girl who's reviewed the proposed change realizes that this changes almost nothing about how titans will be used, it just means that Centra won't be nuking drams and elise is probably going to kill far fewer bombers (though somehow I expect he'll still land kills)

    You achieved something with this nerf, you proved that you can lie outright to the game company and they'll swallow every word whole, but lets keep the scope of the change and the truth of the matter in perspective.

  3. Sigs are too damn expensive. Elo's Avatar
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    whoever thinks titans are nerfed is gonna lose their shit when they still die to titans after this ~nerf~

  4. Don't stop posting! Grath's Avatar
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    Yea pretty much exactly what my wall of words has in it

  5. Monalisa Overdrive Mfume's Avatar
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    i dont know, there are a lot of "nerfs" that really dont mean shit but make people feel better about the game. if it encourages dudes to get like 300 tempests and 120 dreads to just push some random dipshit 90B pwnboat's shit in thats cool w/ me.
    Mfume Apocal - Origin. - Black Legion.

  6. The Theory and Practice of Time Travel Kitty Vintner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grath View Post
    Titans aren't keeping new players out of the game, nerfing titans will have 0 effect on new player retention, most newbies won't see them for years.
    Hi, speaking as someone who joined in 2011 you're full of shit and maybe need to remember that it isn't 2005 anymore.

  7. Promiscuous
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinoyzzz View Post
    I dont play eve, but he's probably right even if he's half-trolling v0v

    I heard from a crippled friend that there's too many Fintrolls in PL right now.
    Rive hasn't been playing much (at all) this year either, so his opinion is also based on a side-line view. Not saying he's entirely wrong, but there's a perspective to it.

    On the topic of the changes, they look sort of reasonable. The scan res/locked targets is a bit over the top, but at most it will mean that you can run away safely now. No more dropping Titans on the other side of the gate to cut off a retreat, although there are other options for that too.

  8. Promiscuous
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty Vintner View Post
    Hi, speaking as someone who joined in 2011 you're full of shit and maybe need to remember that it isn't 2005 anymore.
    The population stats still show most EVE-players in empire space, so you are in no way representative of the 2011 crowd. As much as I think you do a great job at introducing new players to this terrible game, even an 8k member alliance is not the deciding factor in over-all player retention.

  9. Don't stop posting! Grath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty Vintner View Post
    Hi, speaking as someone who joined in 2011 you're full of shit and maybe need to remember that it isn't 2005 anymore.
    So you're saying that new players start the game, then inside 30 days get titan blapped and rage quit over it huh? Potential new players randomly open up Kugu and read our bitch threads before deciding to play eve, see what we're talking about and instantly go "Fuck that noise im out".



    I mean thats what your post is insinuating, so while being full of shit I want to make sure that you realize thats what you're saying. Unless you were somehow taling about the end of the sentence and seeing a titan for years. New players are considered those under 6 months. Thats the wall where most new guys throw in the towel, if they make it past the first wall, which is the 30 day mark. As somebody else points out, Goons and TEST are probably responsible for a very small fraction of the people that pick up EVE and play it.

    The larger portion of the new subscibers are always, and will always be empire dwellers. To think your insignificant gaming group has any weight brought to bear against the statistics of the larger game is pretty much the height of hubris, as Titans do not have much to do at all with new player retention, maybe new Goon player retention, or new Reddit player retention, but the over all retention of new players, the majority of new players, has absolutely nothing to do with titans. It was just something people stuck on the end of the argument that got used as a point until it somehow gained popular belief. Of course the popular belief was rooted in the same people who started the rumor but whatever.

  10. Animal Kingdom tgr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grath View Post
    This is a loaded question, because if somebody asks you why they shouldn't be able to do it, you have no factual reason as to why that should be, even though thats all Titans have ever done, thats exactly what they were designed to do from the day of release.
    If you have two huge fleets of subcaps and a few normal caps (let's say, 1000 on each side, total) crash together in a system, and let's assume 75% of both fleets (evenly spread across shiptypes, for simplicity) got popped. How many times do you think they'll reship? How many times do you think they'll x up for that, even if they got popped one or more times?

    If you have two "huge" supercap-heavy fleets with a few carriers and a small subcap support fleet (let's say, 100 supers total each, with 200-300 subcaps for support), and let's assume 75% of the both fleets (evenly spread across ship types, for simplicity) got popped. How many times do you think they'll reship? How many times do you think they'll x up for that, even if they got popped one or more times?

    Which one of these situations do you think makes for a more sustainable mode of warfare?
    Turning pretend colourblind angels from spaceship to madship samurais, one post at a time.

  11. Monalisa Overdrive Mfume's Avatar
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    grath, you're seriously over-estimating the time it takes for a new player to get to 0.0. ofc you're going to see the highest concentration on newbies in highsec: thats where they start off. but i was in 0.0 inside of 3 months of starting eve, with no kind of goon/test influence whatsoever and it's not an uncommon story at all.
    Mfume Apocal - Origin. - Black Legion.

  12. Monalisa Overdrive Mfume's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tgr View Post
    Which one of these situations do you think makes for a more sustainable mode of warfare?
    yo, 150 supercaps dying in one battle, that shit would own.
    Mfume Apocal - Origin. - Black Legion.

  13. Don't stop posting! Grath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tgr View Post
    If you have two huge fleets of subcaps and a few normal caps (let's say, 1000 on each side, total) crash together in a system, and let's assume 75% of both fleets (evenly spread across shiptypes, for simplicity) got popped. How many times do you think they'll reship? How many times do you think they'll x up for that, even if they got popped one or more times?
    Well if the recent fights are anything to judge from, Team Tech will not reship at all, we'll just all die once and fuck off, Goons on the other hand will reship all day. Too bad nobody else who fights them does that, except their own friends.

    Its an odd sort of mirror to our own problems and failings. You can do something nobody else can and it makes the game awesome for you, unfortunately the only other people who do what you can do are your friends, so nobody fights you for very long.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mfume View Post
    grath, you're seriously over-estimating the time it takes for a new player to get to 0.0. ofc you're going to see the highest concentration on newbies in highsec: thats where they start off. but i was in 0.0 inside of 3 months of starting eve, with no kind of goon/test influence whatsoever and it's not an uncommon story at all.
    Look I started in January and was out in 0.0 killing by the 2nd week of march after pretty much ditching my initial account and rebuilding with Grath.


    But even if you take all the players who start up and go straight out to 0.0, they are such a miniscule fraction of the overall 'new' player base that saying that "Titans keep new players out" is laughable. The way that the people in the game are split up, most people are in empire, and stay in empire, forever. Most new players, will of course fall into that group, empire dwellers, as statistically there are just shit tons more empire people than there are 0.0 people.


    If 10 people start, only 2 will ever decide to go to 0.0. If both of those quit, because of titans, they would be drowned out by the legion of players who quit for the other things wrong with the game.

  14. Animal Kingdom tgr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grath View Post
    Well if the recent fights are anything to judge from, Team Tech will not reship at all, we'll just all die once and fuck off, Goons on the other hand will reship all day. Too bad nobody else who fights them does that, except their own friends.

    Its an odd sort of mirror to our own problems and failings. You can do something nobody else can and it makes the game awesome for you, unfortunately the only other people who do what you can do are your friends, so nobody fights you for very long.
    Wait, are you saying we're the only ones, in eve, who reships? That's funny, there's been tons of fights we've had against f.ex ev0ke, where we didn't reship with the same ferocity they did, and as such they held the field. Then we all did it all over again the next day.

    I'm pretty certain that if that'd happen, but with supers, there'd be no reshipping of anything other than subcaps as they desperately tried to clear the field of dictors so they could GTFO, and there's a pretty high likelihood they'd just go "meh, fuck this, I'd rather go back to doing L4s than lose another 80b ship".
    Turning pretend colourblind angels from spaceship to madship samurais, one post at a time.

  15. What Good Is a Glass Dagger?
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    New players want to see Titans, if you've just come to a game as big as eve and the prospect of seeing the biggest baddest motherfucknig ship is available to you no amount of vet 'analysis' is going to keep you out. I mean hearing about those big fights on places like EN24 is going to pull a fair amount in even with talk of lag/titan.

  16. The Theory and Practice of Time Travel Kitty Vintner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grath View Post
    The larger portion of the new subscibers are always, and will always be empire dwellers. To think your insignificant gaming group has any weight brought to bear against the statistics of the larger game is pretty much the height of hubris,
    If half the titan pilots quit tomorrow and half of our latest crop of newbees end up quitting then eve would still have more subscribers than before. That's not even counting the reddit newbies. I guess my argument boils down to "No you!" then but whatever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goblin View Post
    New players want to see Titans, if you've just come to a game as big as eve and the prospect of seeing the biggest baddest motherfucknig ship is available to you no amount of vet 'analysis' is going to keep you out. I mean hearing about those big fights on places like EN24 is going to pull a fair amount in even with talk of lag/titan.
    1800 man fights get way more press because to be impressed by titans you have to know stuff about the game.

  17. Monalisa Overdrive Mfume's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grath View Post
    But even if you take all the players who start up and go straight out to 0.0, they are such a miniscule fraction of the overall 'new' player base that saying that "Titans keep new players out" is laughable. The way that the people in the game are split up, most people are in empire, and stay in empire, forever. Most new players, will of course fall into that group, empire dwellers, as statistically there are just shit tons more empire people than there are 0.0 people.
    im really not trolling at all when i say that the majority of new players arent like that at all. they are in alliances like n3m3sis, WTF, etc. most low-SP chars are in highsec, but that's because they're people's freighter, market and datacore alts. nobody i was new with stayed in highsec longer than 6 months.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty Vintner View Post
    1800 man fights get way more press because to be impressed by titans you have to know stuff about the game.
    not really.
    Mfume Apocal - Origin. - Black Legion.

  18. Animal Kingdom tgr's Avatar
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    The novelty of seeing titans or supercarriers quickly wears off after you've seen 5+ in one spot. I still find 1800 man fights to have a sense of awe about it, because it involves at least 1000 people (if we're assuming almost half of the people in system are dualboxing).
    Turning pretend colourblind angels from spaceship to madship samurais, one post at a time.

  19. Don't stop posting! Grath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mfume View Post
    nobody i was new with stayed in highsec longer than 6 months.
    Yea I totally know dudes, a whole corp who to this day has never left high sec.


    I knew a second group who when they tried to move out to nullsec, half its members quit and literally never turned the game back on.



    I'm pretty sure most 0.0 dwellers have a very imperfect understanding of how small a percentage of the games population they make up.

  20. The Gripping Hand Sezja's Avatar
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    All I know is that I quit and restarted eve so many times when I tried to play in hisec, it wasn't until I got into an engaging 0.0 group that I ever stayed subbed for more then 2 months.

  21. Prominent Author dabigredboat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elektrea View Post
    Supers = titans. I didn't alter you're words but you obviously missed the point so here it goes again.

    Why should 500 tengus be able to kill a pack of supers? You want tengus to dominate subcaps and capitals? Here we go around in circles again because this comes to the same point.

    Someone failed to alter their shiptype and they couldn't kill supers.

    And its our fault!!!
    And Ill say it again. Since you seem to be missing the point. No game, any game, since games have been out has 50 broken ships or units or anything been designed to beat 500 ships or units or anything. I would understand 50 titans beating 500 frigates, sure, frigates should not kill a titan without enough damage. But in its current form, 50 titans beats 500 bs, 500 tengus, 500 ahacs. Any of those combinations are broken.

    Like any child to his parents. If the child abuses the toys he is given, after a while, the parent will take those toys away from the child. In this case, ccp was/is/will be parents and the abusers of titans the children. After so many ccp fleets and countless "innocent empire frigates" dying over and over, and the abuse seeing no end, the parent "ccp" decided enough was enough and took away the toys. If for say, the child, had taken the time and spread out the abuse of said toys, maybe ccp would have been nicer and let you play with them longer. Try not to blame the poor goon newbie in his rifter, he didn't abuse his toy.

  22. Prominent Author dabigredboat's Avatar
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    If we look at the ccp trend in the game. They want 2000+ man fights to be happening daily, every hour if they could. CCP makes videos showing massive fights, they improve the game to handle massive fights, they change the game to handle massive fights. I do not see this titan nerf being the only thing they change to allow for massive fights to happen. Hell, if CCP sees blackops bs making it so that 50 of them can take away from a big fight, I could see them nerfing those too in the future.

    This is what ccp wants, by flaunting things that prevent this change in gameplay or by showing ccp things that are broken and prevent this style of play, ccp will just change it again and again till its fixed how they want it. Hint: its ccps game, we pay them to play it.

  23. What Good Is a Glass Dagger? Ricky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dabigredboat View Post
    And Ill say it again. Since you seem to be missing the point. No game, any game, since games have been out has 50 broken ships or units or anything been designed to beat 500 ships or units or anything. I would understand 50 titans beating 500 frigates, sure, frigates should not kill a titan without enough damage. But in its current form, 50 titans beats 500 bs, 500 tengus, 500 ahacs. Any of those combinations are broken.

    Like any child to his parents. If the child abuses the toys he is given, after a while, the parent will take those toys away from the child. In this case, ccp was/is/will be parents and the abusers of titans the children. After so many ccp fleets and countless "innocent empire frigates" dying over and over, and the abuse seeing no end, the parent "ccp" decided enough was enough and took away the toys. If for say, the child, had taken the time and spread out the abuse of said toys, maybe ccp would have been nicer and let you play with them longer. Try not to blame the poor goon newbie in his rifter, he didn't abuse his toy.
    if you got 500 dudes and cant kill 50, well then your bringing the wrong shit to the table aren't you??

    and lots of game out there got similar stuff, if i bring 500 dudes who can only shoot the ground units, the 1 dude in the air is gonna pwn me unless i adapt right?? so much time have passed and yet you never adapted to titans instead you went on a crusade against them, it paid out this time, and time will tell how much of a difference its gonna do

  24. Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex
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    Quote Originally Posted by tgr View Post
    If you have two huge fleets of subcaps and a few normal caps (let's say, 1000 on each side, total) crash together in a system, and let's assume 75% of both fleets (evenly spread across shiptypes, for simplicity) got popped. How many times do you think they'll reship? How many times do you think they'll x up for that, even if they got popped one or more times?

    If you have two "huge" supercap-heavy fleets with a few carriers and a small subcap support fleet (let's say, 100 supers total each, with 200-300 subcaps for support), and let's assume 75% of the both fleets (evenly spread across ship types, for simplicity) got popped. How many times do you think they'll reship? How many times do you think they'll x up for that, even if they got popped one or more times?

    Which one of these situations do you think makes for a more sustainable mode of warfare?
    I dont know if you were around during delve mark 2 but the tri-weekly 1000 on 1000 subcap brawls basically caused goonswarm to stop playing eve. It nearly killed PL as well.

    If we hadn't gritted our teeth, begged the NC to come back, and drug you kicking and screaming BOB would have re-captured all of delve.

    that whole conflict exhausted both our alliances and made eve the most unfun and miserable serious business BS it has ever been.

    EDIT: eve was he who brings the most to a system first wins, its what you are asking for now and it was horrible.

  25. Whoremonger fpshacker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grath View Post

    You achieved something with this nerf, you proved that you can lie outright to the game company and they'll swallow every word whole, but lets keep the scope of the change and the truth of the matter in perspective.
    damn goons, stop manipulating poor gullible ccp.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dabigredboat View Post
    If we look at the ccp trend in the game. They want 2000+ man fights to be happening daily, every hour if they could. CCP makes videos showing massive fights, they improve the game to handle massive fights, they change the game to handle massive fights. I do not see this titan nerf being the only thing they change to allow for massive fights to happen. Hell, if CCP sees blackops bs making it so that 50 of them can take away from a big fight, I could see them nerfing those too in the future.

    This is what ccp wants, by flaunting things that prevent this change in gameplay or by showing ccp things that are broken and prevent this style of play, ccp will just change it again and again till its fixed how they want it. Hint: its ccps game, we pay them to play it.
    edit: this fucking serious forum

    HINT WE PAY CCP

    TO DELIVER A GAME

    FOR US

    TO PLAY
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  27. "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."
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    Quote Originally Posted by fpshacker View Post
    damn goons, stop manipulating poor gullible ccp.
    It's even more hilarious because PL have two CSMs as well.

  28. Don't stop posting! Grath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by courthouse View Post
    It's even more hilarious because PL have two CSMs as well.
    Idk if you bothered reading mittani's posts but he's admitted that our CSMs openly opposed this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dabigredboat View Post
    50 titans beats 500 bs
    Unless you got some kind of shitty LR maelstroms (why fight titans in LR maels that's just silly) i can assure you that 500 properly fit BS are certainly gonna own a few titans of that fleet before dying

    And once you do that they are not coming back next time


    But sure just bring maels instead... Be sure not to pay any attention to the direction your burning the fleet, you wouldn't want to keep any transversal on your larger then a carrier sig ships!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vile rat View Post
    No really, make this point. I'm saying you can't just spend your way to victory and your counter is "well we spend our way to victory but we at least use them!" ????

    Tell this to the USSR m8 m8 m8 USA USA USA

  31. The Gripping Hand Sezja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manny View Post
    Tell this to the USSR m8 m8 m8 USA USA USA
    So what you're really trying to say is that if Titans get nerfed then eve will die in a nuclear war?

    CCP's long term track record is quite shady, but if the current trend holds, whats to say that Titans may get this bandaid and be ~iterated~ on properly in a couple months?

  32. The Theory and Practice of Teleportation Kevin's Avatar
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    I have to agree with Grath here, titans blobs don't keep newbies out of 0.0.

    What keeps newbies out of 0.0 is that they form friendships and corps in hisec and then realise that nullsec is an impenetrable wall of coalitions and they gotta either scrap their corps or pay 2 bil a month for some shit-ass system in the middle of nowhere. Whether or not thats a bad thing, i don't know.

    As for the super blob, its effect is this - its the same people fighting over nullsec forever. I'm no Eve history scholar but since 2005, has there been any genuine newcomers besides Test Alliance and Nulli (?) that have made it in 0.0 that aren't just people recycled from other older alliances? That hold sov and live in nullsec and whatnot? I've been in null since about 2-3 months after i joined back at the end of 2010 and I can telll you, its a fucking hard scrape if you don't join an established bloc. Possible BL.?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
    I have to agree with Grath here, titans blobs don't keep newbies out of 0.0.

    What keeps newbies out of 0.0 is that they form friendships and corps in hisec and then realise that nullsec is an impenetrable wall of coalitions and they gotta either scrap their corps or pay 2 bil a month for some shit-ass system in the middle of nowhere. Whether or not thats a bad thing, i don't know.

    As for the super blob, its effect is this - its the same people fighting over nullsec forever. I'm no Eve history scholar but since 2005, has there been any genuine newcomers besides Test Alliance and Nulli (?) that have made it in 0.0 that aren't just people recycled from other older alliances? That hold sov and live in nullsec and whatnot? I've been in null since about 2-3 months after i joined back at the end of 2010 and I can telll you, its a fucking hard scrape if you don't join an established bloc. Possible BL.?

    This a million times. Not everyone wants to go to a dicksucking contest in madison to have some nice space.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
    As for the super blob, its effect is this - its the same people fighting over nullsec forever. I'm no Eve history scholar but since 2005, has there been any genuine newcomers besides Test Alliance and Nulli (?) that have made it in 0.0 that aren't just people recycled from other older alliances? That hold sov and live in nullsec and whatnot? I've been in null since about 2-3 months after i joined back at the end of 2010 and I can telll you, its a fucking hard scrape if you don't join an established bloc. Possible BL.?
    Outpost proliferation is partly to blame for this issue, since sov revolves around them. Back in 2006, there were only a handful of player built outposts, built by individual alliances claiming in empty regions or constellations and the sov system was based around POS. Now every region has several outposts, all controlled by current 0.0 powerblocks, with game mechanics that view outposts as central to sov. A new alliance form empire can't simply put down an outpost somewhere empty and claim it. There is not only no such space anymore, bu they get comparable rewards in terms of ISK/hour by staying in empire/lowsec.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tobruk View Post
    I dont know if you were around during delve mark 2 but the tri-weekly 1000 on 1000 subcap brawls basically caused goonswarm to stop playing eve. It nearly killed PL as well.

    If we hadn't gritted our teeth, begged the NC to come back, and drug you kicking and screaming BOB would have re-captured all of delve.

    that whole conflict exhausted both our alliances and made eve the most unfun and miserable serious business BS it has ever been.

    EDIT: eve was he who brings the most to a system first wins, its what you are asking for now and it was horrible.
    That's funny, the few times we've had fights over a system where there's been 1000+ in local is often the fights which leaves everyone going "THAT WAS AWESOME", and chomping at the bits to get another one going.

    I'm still waiting for a proper answer to my question, and I see that neither you nor Grath seems to want to answer that question, and I think I know why: you know I'm right. You know such an engagement, where the majority of both sides' supers, both SCs and titans, got wiped out, would have a dramatic effect on both sides' enthusiasm to keep fighting in its entirety. You also know that this whole "whoever brings the most to a system first wins" is a fallacy, there have been a lot of fights after tidi came where we've been out-resupplied from a system, and thus "lost" the fight, and yet everyone wants more, because it was awesome.
    Turning pretend colourblind angels from spaceship to madship samurais, one post at a time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elektrea View Post
    Isk spent should = a higher chance to succeed in combat. And its funny because this how it is right now.
    World of difference between "higher chance to succeed in combat" and "isk just won the combat". T2 gives you a higher chance to succeed in combat over T1 but it's hardly deciding the fight for you by just being there.

    Titans have that isk spent but the CFCs own tactics makes titans seemingly invincible. Our success is due to the likes of you, failing to adapt. We shouldn't, but we do.
    Interesting new tactic, attempting to say it's tactics that make titans an invincible blob of subcap death dealing fleets. I guess that bitch had it coming for wearing that miniskirt?

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    I wish they would adjust supers and capitals so that instead of just trying to cripple the massive investments that people have made there was incentive for real capital vs capital fleet warfare. I don't really enjoy massive subcap fights, but I'll be honest, reading about and participating in the giant capital fleet brawls between RUSS and NC was some of the most exciting (and bone crushingly laggy as fuck) times in EVE. Even though these changes were discussed and it appears as though many people feel there needs to be a re-balance, the changes come across as like a knee jerk reaction which I think riles everyone up.

    As for this "certain people abused the game mechanic" what about it? It goes all the way back to The Art of War
    "Ultimate excellence lies not in winning every battle, but in defeating the enemy without ever fighting." - Sun Tzu
    EVE is all about dirty tricks, underhanded moves, spying, the meta game, it's a nasty universe. You're a fool if you don't bring/use every available assets you have at your disposal. Hell people scam in eve all the time. Doesn't that abuse other players trust? Shame on those players for abusing a game mechanic!

    I would rabble on more but I'm pretty buzzed and I don't think I can take much more of this microsoft word putting a red squiggle under every fucking word anymore.

    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by Vile rat View Post
    World of difference between "higher chance to succeed in combat" and "isk just won the combat". T2 gives you a higher chance to succeed in combat over T1 but it's hardly deciding the fight for you by just being there.
    So the enemy won the industrial/isk arms race. EVE combat can be decided long before two forces meet on a grid, be it by tactics, fleet doctrine, intel wallet size. One player had more isk and decided he wanted a higher advantage so he got a titan. The other could only afford a T2 whatever ship so he only got that much.

  38. Shoot blues, Tell Vile Rat. Vile rat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grath View Post
    This is a loaded question, because if somebody asks you why they shouldn't be able to do it, you have no factual reason as to why that should be, even though thats all Titans have ever done, thats exactly what they were designed to do from the day of release.
    No, I've stated the reasoning behind it and even quoted the game designers own words where they said that this was not their intent. Every single nerf that has been implemented has moved us AWAY from combat vs subcaps. So it's not a loaded question, you're the one trying to make the case that the game devs are wrong and your vision of titans are correct. Make the case already.

    I mean, they're getting nerfed, but lets keep the bullshit somewhere in perspective here.

    Titans aren't keeping new players out of the game, nerfing titans will have 0 effect on new player retention, most newbies won't see them for years.

    Endie makes it out like Goons are the only newbie friendly in game, even though PL has had a newbie training corp with virtually no limit on skill points where we take our own newbies and even old guys and remake them in the way we want.

    And then theres Mittani, posting up a storm about how we should all be ashamed since this is our fault. HAHA, we're in a war game, and we were left with a weapon, that we used. Now you're all trying to take some gay ass high ground like you didn't build titans because they were bad for the game, as if the health of the game ever crosses your minds when making a choice. You're not green energy hippies here, you were fools for not taking advantage of every asset the game had to offer your military, and to fix what you fucked up 2 years ago, your answer was to simply bitch until it was made into a non issue.

    Now you're all smugged up because the words 'titan nerf' saw print, only, everybody who's not an over emotional little girl who's reviewed the proposed change realizes that this changes almost nothing about how titans will be used, it just means that Centra won't be nuking drams and elise is probably going to kill far fewer bombers (though somehow I expect he'll still land kills)

    You achieved something with this nerf, you proved that you can lie outright to the game company and they'll swallow every word whole, but lets keep the scope of the change and the truth of the matter in perspective.

    When Mittani says it's your fault he's not saying it because you used titans to gain an in game advantage and take/hold space. Pretty much everybody is in agreement that to blame somebody for using a ship is silly, cause it's not our place to police our own usage of perfectly legitimate in game items. But there is blame to go around for those who so flagrantly flaunt how utterly broken these things are in ways that cause their brokenness to be noticed. Some pilots enjoy shooting very small ships with their titan guns and think there won't ever be a rebalance because of it. They actually think that a titan shooting a dictor is a perfectly acceptable use of a mega weapon and doesn't destroy the whole scale of spaceship fights. Even others thought it would be cute to drop a titan fleet on a CCP dev fun fleet and expect that not to force CCP into action. Well it forced them into action. You made them see how broken the shit is and while you can't be blamed for doing it (it being perfectly legal), you can be blamed for bringing the proper attention to the problem so it gets fixed. Much like the AOE dd'ing a carrier thing ended up being the watershed moment in AOE titan usage, all those silly in your face smug moments had a cost.

    So in a way, thanks. Appreciate the solid you did for us.

  39. "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grath View Post
    Idk if you bothered reading mittani's posts but he's admitted that our CSMs openly opposed this.
    I knew about their positions on this issue months ago. What's hilarious is that even with CSM Iusedtobeadev arguing against it this still happened and it's still 10x harder than we asked for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vile rat View Post
    No, I've stated the reasoning behind it and even quoted the game designers own words where they said that this was not their intent.
    The odd part is, that this is literally the most unbelievable bit.

    The game designers say that wasn't their intent, that titans weren't meant to be the scourge of sub caps.


    And yet, at no time in their entire design history where they were in player hands have they been anything BUT devastating to sub caps. Player complaints, specifically Goonswarm complaints have followed titans around constantly in game. Most of the rest of us just toughed it out and fought the titans, and to an extent, you guys did too, but it was always coupled with a cacophony of cries about how unfair the titan made life in EVE.

    Did they weaken it over time, sure, but did it always somehow manage to retain one particular concept? Sure did.

    Saying you didn't mean it to turn out that way when everything you've ever done speaks to the exact opposite just doesn't quite convince me that they didn't intend for that 'thing' to happen.


    The comical aspect is that you suggest (and continue even in this post) that this is somehow the burden of the players who were simply playing the game having fun. Thats not the way it works, the players were given a toolset, they played, end of discussion. If anything its you who are guilty of throwing your toys from the crib because the other kids played smarter with their toys.


    Whats worse, is that you have CCP's ear, but are literally such complete and utter failures when it comes to capital combat in EVE, that you can't even guide them through the nerfing process without letting them absolutely mouth fuck the dreads in the process.

    But hey, I'm sure they'll drop this patch in April, focus on the summer bits, and get right back to Titans, I mean, this is CCP we're talking about, iteration is their middle name.

    Quote Originally Posted by courthouse View Post
    this still happened and it's still 10x harder than we asked for.
    This post insinuates that you think this upcoming 'Titan Nerf' somehow hurts the titans, is that right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Zuckerkorn View Post
    I wish they would adjust supers and capitals so that instead of just trying to cripple the massive investments that people have made there was incentive for real capital vs capital fleet warfare. I don't really enjoy massive subcap fights, but I'll be honest, reading about and participating in the giant capital fleet brawls between RUSS and NC was some of the most exciting (and bone crushingly laggy as fuck) times in EVE. Even though these changes were discussed and it appears as though many people feel there needs to be a re-balance, the changes come across as like a knee jerk reaction which I think riles everyone up.

    As for this "certain people abused the game mechanic" what about it? It goes all the way back to The Art of War


    EVE is all about dirty tricks, underhanded moves, spying, the meta game, it's a nasty universe. You're a fool if you don't bring/use every available assets you have at your disposal. Hell people scam in eve all the time. Doesn't that abuse other players trust? Shame on those players for abusing a game mechanic!

    I would rabble on more but I'm pretty buzzed and I don't think I can take much more of this microsoft word putting a red squiggle under every fucking word anymore.

    EDIT:

    So the enemy won the industrial/isk arms race. EVE combat can be decided long before two forces meet on a grid, be it by tactics, fleet doctrine, intel wallet size. One player had more isk and decided he wanted a higher advantage so he got a titan. The other could only afford a T2 whatever ship so he only got that much.

    cap fleet fights have a lot to do with leadership/fcs mentality in the different collitions. Prob more to do with that then the accually currently metagame in titan vs sc vs dread vs carrier.
    Not calling anyone out as I really only got my side of the current supergame, but both russians and NC (of the old) didnt see supers as something that "couldnt" be lost as long as the enemy lost more(hopefullly) and as a weapons to be used. At that time both sides pretty much had the majority of the supers in eve and could replace said supers fairly easy. There was also prob few/non "unknown" superfleets that could possibly join the party in from the outside. CFC seems to think(for me) that every super lost is irreplaceable, as they alrdy are so far behind in the supercap "armsrace" that they cant afford to loose a supercap engangment even if it means they will barly break even in terms of isk lost vs won. this turns into a negative spiral where most of their superpilots feel prob more insecure about their ability to fight the enemy superblob than the ones that uses their supers regulary. They also usually have been relying on their allies(specially NC of the old) to take the lead when it comes down to supers/heavy capital commitment.

    Also you can never force members to commit their supers,(they can simply log off and claim that they gotto do stuff in RL) any FC gotto have a certain amouth of trust to accually get members to log in their " shiney" toys. CFC rather high casualtie/whelp game style added in fairly low activity of said supers prob doesnt provide their supercap pilots with much more trust in comming out of it alive. Even with full reimburstment Im pretty sure most superpilots rather have their super alive as any reimburstment is likerly delayed/not fully and its pretty annoying logistically. Specially if you use the super in any pve role aswell(you loose your income)

    They will prob say the same the other way around(PL/RAIDEN/NC. been risk averse and "blobbing up" ) tho so VOV.

    Anyways....this sound all whiney and such, but you can clearly see why CFC would really prefer more casual gameplay with as few supers on the field as possible.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grath View Post
    The comical aspect is that you suggest (and continue even in this post) that this is somehow the burden of the players who were simply playing the game having fun. Thats not the way it works, the players were given a toolset, they played, end of discussion. If anything its you who are guilty of throwing your toys from the crib because the other kids played smarter with their toys.
    Are you saying that you think you guys dragging your titan nuts across CCP's face when they took their fleets out, wasn't akin to the video of 22 titans DDing a carrier to death in being a deciding factor for implementing yet another titan nerf?
    Turning pretend colourblind angels from spaceship to madship samurais, one post at a time.

  43. Naturally I finished my set Stronke's Avatar
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    The sad truth is, CCP would of never nerfed Titans if they didn't kept being raped by them when they go out on a event roam. They know that every roam they will do will cause people like PL to drop a shit load of supercaps on them and kill the event before it even really started.

    CCP likes roaming in there OP customized subcap ships, and they know that unless they "fix" titans and perhaps motherships they will never have any fun unless they stick to empire roams or switch to supercaps them selfs but then they severely limit the amount of people who could participate with said event and they don't want that.

    They also don't want the same 3 or 4 groups to enjoy the event, as they hold them for every player in EvE.

    But I could be wrong.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
    As for the super blob, its effect is this - its the same people fighting over nullsec forever. I'm no Eve history scholar but since 2005, has there been any genuine newcomers besides Test Alliance and Nulli (?) that have made it in 0.0 that aren't just people recycled from other older alliances? That hold sov and live in nullsec and whatnot? I've been in null since about 2-3 months after i joined back at the end of 2010 and I can telll you, its a fucking hard scrape if you don't join an established bloc. Possible BL.?
    New alliances in 0.0 don't make it for much the same reason a vet in a Taranis can beat down a new player in a Tempest. EVE doesn't come with a manual, especially not at the leadership level and damned sure not with FCing. I play a fucking lot of spaceships and I still have months of learning ahead of me to get on the level of even a casual 06/07 player in terms of skill and game knowledge.

    edit: this isn't a snipe at titans by the way, the I-Win ship could be a HAC and veteran players would still find a way to make zealots look unstoppable to new players.
    Mfume Apocal - Origin. - Black Legion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grath View Post
    And then theres Mittani, posting up a storm about how we should all be ashamed since this is our fault. HAHA, we're in a war game, and we were left with a weapon, that we used. Now you're all trying to take some gay ass high ground like you didn't build titans because they were bad for the game, as if the health of the game ever crosses your minds when making a choice. You're not green energy hippies here, you were fools for not taking advantage of every asset the game had to offer your military, and to fix what you fucked up 2 years ago, your answer was to simply bitch until it was made into a non issue.
    Propaganda is a weapon, too; I don't actually expect Titan pilots to feel ashamed, but it masterfully counters the 'poor me/victim' frame 95% of them were trying to get traction with in the Bad Thread.

    One might argue that you guys were fools to not take advantage of propaganda as well as we did; you could describe it as a weapon left on the table, etc.

    Anyway, I have no idea what's going on in the last six pages of this thread, but I'm sure that PL will adapt and move on just fine. RDNdot or NCdot, perhaps not. Their identities were based around supercaps, full stop, where the long-standing PL identity, predating Supercaps Online, is to be the best k/d harvesters in EVE.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grath View Post
    I'm pretty sure most 0.0 dwellers have a very imperfect understanding of how small a percentage of the games population they make up.
    You are greatly underestimating 0.0 population. This is official CCP data as of Feb 29 2012:

    "Locations of active chars with more than 5m SP just after midnight: High Sec 66.00%, Low sec 7.37%, Null sec 20.73%, Wormhole Space 5.89%."

    I wouldn't call 21% exactly "small percentage", also taking into account that large portion of Hi-sec chars are alts of 0.0 dudes.


    Another interesting statistic: "Supers being flown as of midnight: 880 titans, 3413 supercarriers." (743 and 2600 respectively in active accounts)

    3 full fleets of titans? Geez, no wonder CCP desperately wants to decrease number of them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tgr View Post
    Are you saying that you think you guys dragging your titan nuts across CCP's face when they took their fleets out, wasn't akin to the video of 22 titans DDing a carrier to death in being a deciding factor for implementing yet another titan nerf?
    If it was it says a lot about what the Devs know about EVE, since their BS fleet sat perfectly still 80km off a Titan fleet.


    It says that titan fleets can prowl the game because CCP can't motivate the players to field the counters that are built to fight them, Cap Ships, and instead they cater to players who have no desire to play above battleships, and think everything in game should die fairly easily to said battleships.


    I mean whats next, I'm sure you've ran the numbers through and can see that you won't be able to alpha the Slowcat carriers because they have a fuckoff hit point brick that not even a Titan can stagger.

    They have a pretty huge alpha, thats coordination makes the best run Mael fleet look like some kind of special olympian, and its got a pretty massive rep chain. I figure i can give you a heads up now so you guys can get the complaint list fired up for the next thing that won't die to maelstroms.


    Basically, there is a failure by a large portion of this game to have and field the counters to the titans in a reliable fashion, and that failure, is in CCP's ability to motivate the players to use those ships.

    So instead of a huge awesome fleet fight with all the different ship classes popping off we'll get subcaps online, and the cap ships will all be completely fucked over. Thats fine by me too, I have a pretty decent isk blanket that Im making bigger and bigger, so that I can spend my time squeezing every bit of power i can out of ships using the most retarded impants and mods i can get.

    Literally, the titans aren't whats wrong with the game right now, the CFC's attitude for years about capitals in general is whats wrong.


    EDIT: As much as i tried to word that so it wasn't directly taking a shot at the CFC, I don't think I really got it right.

    What I'm trying to say is that you never put emphasis on cap ships, because CCP never motivated you to make that choice by making the baseline caps more attractive, moving the goal posts a bit closer to the BS hulls maybe.

    Revelation was the only sensible dread to ever really train for, the Moros had huge drone requirements to meet its damage potential, Caldari dreads had torps, and i mean, the damage is nice, if you don't die of old age waiting to apply it, the Nag is fucking wretched, its the most absurd skill train ever, with the 2 worst capital weapons systems to boot, AND the shittiest tank, that for years suffered from jump in tank, where you were missing part of your shields.

    These ships were what was supposed to curtail the titans, and CCP failed to make them worth a fuck in any way shape or form until the problem was beyond their relative checks and balances.

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    So basically because Dreads are so difficult to get into (relative to flying Battleships), the most effective counter to Titans largely goes unused given the hoops necessary for players to jump through.

    Thus, we see Titans being brought more into line with subcaps. That makes sense, so (assuming you believe changing such a thing would help game balance) how would you go about changing the requirements for Dreads/Capitals so that they could be used more frequently?

    Which, in your words, would also assist in bringing Titans into line.

  49. The Theory and Practice of Teleportation Wildside's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rer View Post
    So basically because Dreads are so difficult to get into (relative to flying Battleships), the most effective counter to Titans largely goes unused given the hoops necessary for players to jump through.

    Thus, we see Titans being brought more into line with subcaps. That makes sense, so (assuming you believe changing such a thing would help game balance) how would you go about changing the requirements for Dreads/Capitals so that they could be used more frequently?

    Which, in your words, would also assist in bringing Titans into line.
    if people stop bringing titans/supers, why would you bring dreads? dreads is a pure anti capital weapon, prob more so than any other ship type in eve(both sc and titan work agains sub caps to a certain/or more depending on view point) agains support aswell.
    Stop bringing supers to the front= no use for dreads besides for structure grinding ops.

    Unless you make dreads the "new titan" why would you bring it up now? you wont see any more dreads fleets, prob just fewer, and prob more BS fleets in various shapes and form.The titan fleets will still be there,(sitting inside poses in reserve/to scare enemy from committing caps, but prob more rarly used) but I guess the focus on building them will slow down.
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    Perhaps I mis-worded my question. This is under the assumption that Supers/Titans will continue to be in use the same way they are today, post-patch/change. Which from reading this thread, appears to be the case.

    Since the current stance is "If you guys used Dreads more, we'd see significantly more dead Titans" combined with "admittedly Dreads are much harder to push for relative to Battleships", I'm curious as to whether anyone from Team Titan © has any thoughts on making Dreads easier to get into. Which by doing so, would (if the theory that they are a capital counter is correct) give the "have-nots" a more accessible weapon to combat Titan fleets.

    Edit: Without forcing continued nerfs of Titans, given they would have a counter that could kill them, and be used realistically. (And I use realistically in a relative sense but hopefully you understand my point) Regardless thanks for entertaining my 5 AM blatherings.

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