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Generic CSM thread

  1. Banned
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    Not to mention the fact that if I'm getting shot at (which necessitates an LSE) at least I can shoot back.

  2. Monalisa Overdrive Mfume's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viribus View Post
    Pretty sure he said:
    Then he'd be wrong because there are about as many counters to turrets.


    Plus ECM counters all suck anyway. Even a drake with a full set of HG Talons, two firewalls and an ECCM has a 44% chance to get jammed by 3 caldari jammers from a falcon. And there's the whole idiotic idea that it's expected to sacrifice slots to fit mods which help your ship in no other way except to counter a single kind of electronic warfare.
    FoFs work, seriously.

    http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=12277508 --- this retard came in as I was playing with the scouts of a RA(?) blob, jammed me, then started eating FoF and Warrior dick and decided he didn't want none of what I had and warped. Then died in a Sabre bubble like a retard 45 seconds later.

    http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=12198220 --- jammed out the Lach originally, then realized HMLs hurt pretty bad and jammed me. I ran out of FoFs (I never carry many) and drones finished him off because I was literally bump-tackling him.

    http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=11925484 --- Got one volley off, swapped to FoFs, then had to weave in between frigs and shit (they had an additional vexor and Thrasher that aren't on the BR) to keep him closest so FoFs could do their thing. It was pretty pr0 and I was pretty smug afterwards.

    How the hell can anyone convince themselves that this is good game design?
    I consider horribly broken and unfun gameplay mechanics an "EVE" thing. You're allowed to make the other guy feel like shit when you beat him.
    Mfume Apocal - Origin. - Black Legion.

  3. Neuromancer Berious's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solinuas
    You know, i just wish mittens was a furry, it would make him so much better, then i wouldnt have to try to find a furry candidate to run for CSM.
    Eve Online

  4. How to Build a Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days Later El Space Mariachi's Avatar
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    A Goon being lauded by a furry, such anathema

    We had a Furry corp apply to our pubbie alliance once. Good times.

  5. Monalisa Overdrive Mfume's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don Peyote View Post
    A Goon being lauded by a furry, such anathema

    We had a Furry corp apply to our pubbie alliance once. Good times.
    I would like to know more.
    Mfume Apocal - Origin. - Black Legion.

  6. How to Build a Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days Later El Space Mariachi's Avatar
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    A few (6-ish?) months after I started out playing, I was a director in a highsec alliance run by some friends, and our recruitment policy was "anything that moves". An 11 man furry corp applied, with the usual "searching for a place in EVE free of bigots" or some touchy feely "ACCEPT US WE'RE DIFFERENT" bullshit in their corp description, and with links to a furry forum in their CEO's bio. We didn't milk the opportunity for trolling, sadly, as we were pubbies not versed in the art of trolling, and pretty much told them they couldn't join because they were weird. They...didn't get the message, and said CEO hung out in our recruitment chat for a very long time, I think actually until after we closed both the alliance and the recruitment channel.

    I've forgotten the corp's name or I'd totally tell everyone so they could hit them up

    Moral : If a furry corp applies to your alliance, take the opportunity to troll them by the horns (no pun intended?)

  7. "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."
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    Mfume, fofs work if u dont have drones on you and if u fly nano drake, tengu or nighthawk. Stop making situational arguments about ecm counters because its pointles. ECM stance is just a point of view, if u fly in small gangs/solo ecm will bother you, and even some people who use ecm in small scale combat acknowledge that its OP. While on the other hand if your place style includes 30+ roaming gangs ecm is not such a issue and it will seem ballanced.

  8. King Dong
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marko Box View Post
    Mfume, fofs work if u dont have drones on you and if u fly nano drake, tengu or nighthawk. Stop making situational arguments about ecm counters because its pointles. ECM stance is just a point of view, if u fly in small gangs/solo ecm will bother you, and even some people who use ecm in small scale combat acknowledge that its OP. While on the other hand if your place style includes 30+ roaming gangs ecm is not such a issue and it will seem ballanced.
    All those mails he linked had fewer than 4 people on them.

  9. Monalisa Overdrive Mfume's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marko Box View Post
    Mfume, fofs work if u dont have drones on you and if u fly nano drake, tengu or nighthawk. Stop making situational arguments about ecm counters because its pointles.
    all i was saying was that FoFs work. people keep claiming they don't, which is silly and makes them wrong as fuck.

    ECM stance is just a point of view, if u fly in small gangs/solo ecm will bother you, and even some people who use ecm in small scale combat acknowledge that its OP. While on the other hand if your place style includes 30+ roaming gangs ecm is not such a issue and it will seem ballanced.
    it bothers me immediately after the loss, insofar as losses actually bother me in eve (which isn't much). i get much more bothered by things than recons, since recons by definition have to be overpowered in the solo context, otherwise they aren't worth bringing over +1 DPS.

    ** except that one time in LXQ2 when dude had a falcon alt for their falcon alt, that shit was just ridiculous

    anyway, im mostly neutral on the whole ECM issue, but ive argued before for a slot 3 jam duration reduction booster, since turrets dont get a "get out of ECM free" card like some missiles do with FoFs. and faction ECCM and a general increase in the strength of sensor strength implants.
    Mfume Apocal - Origin. - Black Legion.

  10. "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."
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    Quote Originally Posted by poaw View Post
    All those mails he linked had fewer than 4 people on them.
    And you have fewer than 4 brain cells

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mfume View Post
    jam duration reduction
    I honestly think this is the fix ECM needs, make sensor strength a factor in jam duration. Keep the %chance mechanics, but on top of that, duration of jam = 20 x (ECM strength / target sensor strength) seconds. This way ECM drones wouldn't jam a target for more than a second or two, just long enough to break a lock and be annoying as fuck but not a game breaker. Falcons against frigates would likely still jam for the full 20 seconds, but it would be severely reduced against BC, BS, and anything with ECCM or implants.

    EDIT: Also, 20 seconds should be the ceiling for jam duration.

  12. Fuck me I'm Famous! Grath's Avatar
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    i kinda like the idea the one guy had where you can't lock any more targets once you're affected by ECM.

    TD's and Damps don't get to have all or nothing anymore, so why should ECM?

  13. Don't try to solve serious matters in the middle of the night Viribus's Avatar
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    Guys let me tell you about how I kill falcons with four ships fit out to kill falcons and this is somehow proof that ecm is balanced.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grath View Post
    i kinda like the idea the one guy had where you can't lock any more targets once you're affected by ECM.

    TD's and Damps don't get to have all or nothing anymore, so why should ECM?
    That was my idea

    I was kicking around some other ideas with tewkz in that thread he linked but no one's going to, they're all pretty bad but at least they wouldn't have the distinction of being one of the most boring mechanics in a game renowned for being boring.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilmar Keller View Post
    I honestly think this is the fix ECM needs, make sensor strength a factor in jam duration. Keep the %chance mechanics, but on top of that, duration of jam = 20 x (ECM strength / target sensor strength) seconds. This way ECM drones wouldn't jam a target for more than a second or two, just long enough to break a lock and be annoying as fuck but not a game breaker. Falcons against frigates would likely still jam for the full 20 seconds, but it would be severely reduced against BC, BS, and anything with ECCM or implants.

    EDIT: Also, 20 seconds should be the ceiling for jam duration.
    This doesn't sound too bad. So a Falcon would jam an ECCM equipped logi for around 8s and something like a BS for about 12s. I could get behind that, tbh.

  15. Monalisa Overdrive Mfume's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viribus View Post
    Guys let me tell you about how I kill falcons with four ships fit out to kill falcons and this is somehow proof that ecm is balanced.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mfume View Post
    all i was saying was that FoFs work. people keep claiming they don't, which is silly and makes them wrong as fuck.
    Mfume Apocal - Origin. - Black Legion.

  16. Piper in the Woods Rokkensuke's Avatar
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    Both reducing jam duration and leaving the chance-based mechanic is just another nerf.
    Effectively you remove ECM ships from the game, that might be the goal, but I dunno.

    How about this:

    - ECM works 100% like every other EW module
    - duration of jam is 20 (ECM / SS) as suggested above
    - after jam cycle ends, the previous targets reappear without a need to lock them again
    (it's a sensor blackout not a reset)

    Permajamming now requires skill and timing but it's still possible (need several evenly spaced module activations for each victim).
    ECM drones make targets blink, useful for making guns and remote reps cycle less often, but nothing game-breaking.
    No more ECM+dampener combo.
    Etc.

    Also, have Sensor Boosters give a minor boost to sensor strength and the option of a sensor strength script. Not as powerful as ECCM modules but still useful and stackable.

    I think that's how it's supposed to work (in a good game).
    [I]I'm stupid. Unfortunate, but there it is. Living in a world of geniuses is so hard![/I]

  17. What Good Is a Glass Dagger? Mizuchi's Avatar
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    Remove ECM
    Buff XL Turret tracking

  18. Becalmed in Hell Matos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rokkensuke View Post
    - ECM works 100% like every other EW module


    On the plus side i would fly around in 1M Griffins all day long.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matos View Post


    On the plus side i would fly around in 1M Griffins all day long.
    Not to mention it would make perma-jamming even easier than it is now and make the Falcon hilarious to use (just load 'er up with multispecs and stagger your jams by 4-5 seconds).

  20. Becalmed in Hell Matos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilmar Keller View Post
    Not to mention it would make perma-jamming even easier than it is now and make the Falcon hilarious to use (just load 'er up with multispecs and stagger your jams by 4-5 seconds).
    ECM-DRONES
    Nothing more to say to that

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    That sounds pretty balanced, continuous use of mods is overrated anyway.

  22. Glimmung jeffraider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilmar Keller View Post
    I honestly think this is the fix ECM needs, make sensor strength a factor in jam duration. Keep the %chance mechanics, but on top of that, duration of jam = 20 x (ECM strength / target sensor strength) seconds. This way ECM drones wouldn't jam a target for more than a second or two, just long enough to break a lock and be annoying as fuck but not a game breaker. Falcons against frigates would likely still jam for the full 20 seconds, but it would be severely reduced against BC, BS, and anything with ECCM or implants.

    EDIT: Also, 20 seconds should be the ceiling for jam duration.
    I really like this. I fucking hate ecm, I fly solo most of the time when I'm not in fleets and I've done the sensor strength implants, eccm, FOFs, everything, and it's fucking annoying as shit to get permajammed by a fucking griffin like nbd. I think your idea is really awesome and I would also like a boost to eccm effectiveness a long with it.

    The "lock any more targets while jammed" thing is cool too. If nothing else it would fuck the cowards who just decloak their falcons when it's clear they're losing the fight and if they're winning they're all LOL I 1V1'D U
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  23. What Good Is a Glass Dagger? Mizuchi's Avatar
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    Maybe give ecm a diminishing return mechanic? ie/ the first jam = 20 sec, then 15 sec, 10 sec, 5 sec, then immune the target is immune to all ecm for 60 sec or something~.

  24. Statler MpozoY's Avatar
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    ECM does have its place along with tackling as one of the very few things a newbie can do to really piss off a experienced character

  25. Promiscuous
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mizuchi View Post
    Maybe give ecm a diminishing return mechanic? ie/ the first jam = 20 sec, then 15 sec, 10 sec, 5 sec, then immune the target is immune to all ecm for 60 sec or something~.
    Too complicated when you have no way of knowing as an ECM pilot how many previous jams are on a target. The sensor-strength-shortens-duration is a transparent mechanic to everyone involved.

  26. Animal Kingdom tgr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mizuchi View Post
    Maybe give ecm a diminishing return mechanic? ie/ the first jam = 20 sec, then 15 sec, 10 sec, 5 sec, then immune the target is immune to all ecm for 60 sec or something~.
    Hm. I've seen this thinking before. The only difference was, it was supposed to be for diminishing returns on shooting the same target. The RP "cause" was supposed to be because so many people were firing at the same target at the same time, their slugs hit eachother.
    Turning pretend colourblind angels from spaceship to madship samurais, one post at a time.

  27. What Good Is a Glass Dagger? Mizuchi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tgr View Post
    Hm. I've seen this thinking before. The only difference was, it was supposed to be for diminishing returns on shooting the same target. The RP "cause" was supposed to be because so many people were firing at the same target at the same time, their slugs hit eachother.
    I prefered the SoaSE mechanic for that sort of thing (Shield mitigation). Doubt it would work really in EvE though because of the shield resistances anyway. Basicly, your ships had a base mitigation of 20-30% which reduced damage by said amount, as you take damage, your mitigation increases up untill a certain cap of somewhere about 70% i think, fun part was it would even reduce damage taken onto your hull(armour) even if you have no shields). Like i said though, wouldnt work in EvE due to the em/therm/exp/kin resists aswell.

  28. The Gripping Hand somedude76's Avatar
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    Somebody give me moderator powers!! Something needs to be done about this thread!

  29. Go fuck yourself Frodo!
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    How about buffing eccm and converting one of the worthless hull platforms to support it

  30. Adjustment Team
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffraider View Post
    I fly solo most of the time when I'm not in fleets
    Don't we all

  31. Glimmung jeffraider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spamB0t View Post
    Don't we all
    instead of small gang you dumb chud

    ps you are as dumb as akatookey now

    lmao
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  32. Monalisa Overdrive Mfume's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilmar Keller View Post
    I honestly think this is the fix ECM needs, make sensor strength a factor in jam duration.
    That wouldn't fix the complaint that countering ECM gimps your fit for all other considerations. Making it into a slot 3 booster means it doesn't compete for module or rig slots and is perfectly tailored for a turret boat (which doesn't need Crash) while also introducing a degree of risk/reward into PvP beyond the initial fight/flight stage. Are you confident you can kill the Falcon before it can get a jam off? Are you confident that you can kill his DPS if you take a booster to nullify the Falcon?

    It also means it'd be illegal in Empire, which supports my fantasy of making highsec PvP so lame that everyone who wants to shoot other players moves to null/low/WH or stops playing EVE entirely.
    Mfume Apocal - Origin. - Black Legion.

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    I made a table and :words: in the other thread, but it pretty accurately shows a few reasons that ECM doesn't fit in the game regardless of it's balance. It moves in on gallente e-war (negatively affecting locking), and is wildly universal instead of situational against different kinds of fleets (like every other kind of e-war). Instead I'd like to see some kind of "missile damp", that'd be neat (and give it the situational properties of other e-war platforms). A drastic change like that is just a ~pipe dream~ for now though. Here's a link to the read, it's short enough I promise.

    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hUCRSgvACVQRipPELq-veGEQdOoW-vJarOyFkutJizo/edit?hl=en_US
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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  34. King Dong penifSMASH's Avatar
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    make a table of the chances of you ever getting laid

    hint it will be empty lmao

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mfume View Post
    That wouldn't fix the complaint that countering ECM gimps your fit for all other considerations.
    No, but if you had ECM strength < 12 or so, you'd be jammed for under 20 seconds and thus have a window in which to lock and thus attack the enemy ECM. This applies to everything above Cruisers, as even a pimp-fit Falcon won't get ECM strength above 12.

  36. Monalisa Overdrive Mfume's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilmar Keller View Post
    No, but if you had ECM strength < 12 or so, you'd be jammed for under 20 seconds and thus have a window in which to lock and thus attack the enemy ECM. This applies to everything above Cruisers, as even a pimp-fit Falcon won't get ECM strength above 12.
    Those numbers would basically neuter ECM entirely. Except against Minmatar.

    Mfume Apocal - Origin. - Black Legion.

  37. Go fuck yourself Frodo!
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    Quote Originally Posted by penifSMASH View Post
    make a table of the chances of you ever getting laid

    hint it will be empty lmao

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    Quote Originally Posted by penifSMASH View Post
    make a table of the chances of you ever getting laid

    hint it will be empty lmao
    Go fix my computer about it browntown
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    [spoiler="Who's that Broooooown?"]Zulu Supremacy[/spoiler]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mfume View Post
    Those numbers would basically neuter ECM entirely. Except against Minmatar.

    Uh, first off, I think you confused Minmatar and Amarr. Maybe. I'm not sure what your point was either way, so I'll leave you to correct that.

    Second, 'neuter' is a pretty subjective term, like saying that forcing supercaps to only use fighters or fighter bombers instead of any kind of drone would 'neuter' them. Sure, it's functionally a nerf. But does it nerf ECM boats to the point of being useless, or in your analogy, to the point of lacking balls? Hardly.

  40. Monalisa Overdrive Mfume's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilmar Keller View Post
    Uh, first off, I think you confused Minmatar and Amarr. Maybe. I'm not sure what your point was either way, so I'll leave you to correct that.
    Minmatar have the lowest sensor strength as a racial characteristic. Right now, it's not really a significant enough difference to be worth mentioning, but it will with your idea.

    But does it nerf ECM boats to the point of being useless, or in your analogy, to the point of lacking balls? Hardly.
    If your sensor strength being greater than the jammer's strength leads to a reduced jam duration, virtually every HAC/BC or higher is going to get that benefit. And anything with ECCM will encounter only a lockbreaker effect. Recons and (untriaged obviously) carriers will be immune right out of the box, without the need for ECCM.

    I'm not sure if you're suggesting a radical rebalance in sensor strength to go along with this. It's an interesting idea anyway.
    Mfume Apocal - Origin. - Black Legion.

  41. Prince Sky Pirate Razzor "Higgins" Toxic Death the Astral Walker Razzor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by penifSMASH View Post
    make a table of the chances of you ever getting laid

    hint it will be empty lmao
    A prearranged marriage is the only way your getting laid nerd

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    Quote Originally Posted by Razzor View Post
    A prearranged marriage is the only way your getting laid nerd
    or :10bux: with your mom!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mfume View Post
    Minmatar have the lowest sensor strength as a racial characteristic. Right now, it's not really a significant enough difference to be worth mentioning, but it will with your idea.



    If your sensor strength being greater than the jammer's strength leads to a reduced jam duration, virtually every HAC/BC or higher is going to get that benefit. And anything with ECCM will encounter only a lockbreaker effect. Recons and (untriaged obviously) carriers will be immune right out of the box, without the need for ECCM.

    I'm not sure if you're suggesting a radical rebalance in sensor strength to go along with this. It's an interesting idea anyway.
    Like somebody else mentioned, maybe in this thread or in the other one, sensor strength of BC or larger ships is counterbalanced by their low scan resolution, so they don't get jammed often or for long, but it takes them a long time to re-lock a target. The lockbreaker effect on HACs/Recons is still significant though, especially if their scan resolution is shitty. I addressed Carriers earlier, they take so long to lock a target that a lockbreaker effect is as good as a full 20-second jam.

  44. Expendable Jafit's Avatar
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    This discussion about ECM in this thread about the CSM is great and everything, but there are other pressing issues in this game that need to be addressed which are being completly glazed over. For example, what are the CSM going to do about the appalling mass issues with Large Group of Exotic Dancers?

    1 Exotic Dancer has a volume of 1m^3 and has a mass of 50kg, a large group of exotic dancers is 400m^3 and has a mass of 400,000kg. This means that every exotic dancer in a large group of exotic dancers would have a mass of one metric ton and yet takes up no extra volume.

    Can any CSM candidates comment on what they would do to steer CCP towards addressing this issue?

  45. Promiscuous
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilmar Keller View Post
    No, but if you had ECM strength < 12 or so, you'd be jammed for under 20 seconds and thus have a window in which to lock and thus attack the enemy ECM. This applies to everything above Cruisers, as even a pimp-fit Falcon won't get ECM strength above 12.
    A Falcon can easily get jam strength to 14+ without any pimp at all, but that just means regular cruisers would have to fit ECCM to see a reduced duration.

    The more I think about it, the better your suggestion sounds. This is simple and a decent enough nerf to ECM while still keeping EC-drones useful as a gtfo-tool or annoyance from the lock-breaking effect.

  46. What Good Is a Glass Dagger? Jm24's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fmercury
    https://goonfleet.com/index.php?/top...re-jammersecm/
    ATTENTION:Fit more jammers/ECM

    posted 10 April 2006 - 02:57 AM

    ECM is extremely powerful shit, and sadly underused round these parts.

    (please note this is mainly in relation to fleet/large group combat)

    Seriously, if you're in a cruiser or above (or an ecm frigate!), and have spare mids and some cpu to burn, fit some goddamn jammers. You don't need to be in a blackbird or scorpion to use them.

    I notice a lot of guys flying around in caracals, which is great. You've got 5 mids to burn, so what to fit? Instead of wasting it on shit like sensor boosters, webs, and scrams, fit some jammers in there, for god's sake.

    Consider this caracal setup:


    HIGH-SLOTS :
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~
    > [ 90 | 30] 'Malkuth' Heavy Missile Launcher I
    > [ 90 | 30] 'Malkuth' Heavy Missile Launcher I
    > [ 90 | 30] 'Malkuth' Heavy Missile Launcher I
    > [ 90 | 30] 'Malkuth' Heavy Missile Launcher I
    > [ 90 | 30] 'Malkuth' Heavy Missile Launcher I


    MED-SLOTS :
    ~~~~~~~~~~~
    > [ 1 | 48] Initiated Multispectral ECM I
    > [ 1 | 48] Initiated Multispectral ECM I
    > [ 150 | 40] Large Shield Extender 1
    > [ 0 | 40] Invulnerability Field I
    > Free slot, Cap recharger, sensor booster, whatever strikes your fancy.


    LOW-SLOTS :
    ~~~~~~~~~~~
    > [ 1 | 35] Ballistic Control System I
    > [ 1 | 35] Ballistic Control System I


    You're doing good damage, and putting out some nice jamming to boot. One lucky cycle and you've put an enemy BS out of action for 20 seconds. Not bad at all, especially if everyone in the fleet is doing it. A little tight on cap, so only turn on the invuln if you're being shot at, as it will suck your cap dry in short order. Jammers will work pretty well out to about 40km before skills.

    Same goes for any ship with a free mid, really. Do you really need that extra scram or web on your rupture/maller with 20 frigs there to do the tackling for you? Of course you don't. Fit a multispec instead.

    Jammers do use a lot of cap, though. If you find yourself short on cap, switch out jammers for tracking disruptors.

    Also, don't forget ECM drones. They're awesome and don't take all that long to train for.

    In conclusion, hail remedial glory to goonfleet aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
    In conclusion


  47. Ask Me About My Flux Capacitor Fix Lag's Avatar
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    who the fuck uses multispectrals on a long-range ship

    shorten that to who the fuck uses multispectrals

  48. God is dead. They found his carcass in 2019.. Malcanis's Avatar
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    Never don't fit amarr & minmatar racials

  49. God is dead. They found his carcass in 2019.. Arrador's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fix Lag View Post
    who the fuck uses multispectrals on a long-range ship

    shorten that to who the fuck uses multispectrals

    Quote Originally Posted by Jm24 View Post
    posted 10 April 2006 - 02:57 AM
    [Arrador] possesses a considerable understanding of ship configurations, strengths and weakness. He gives clear and purposeful instructions, is good at taking advantage of the fleet-composition he's dealt, and never loses sight of the main goal: fun. This, paired with an excellent tolerance for strong drink gives him an almost Churchillian capability to win, despite being completely pissed on booze most of the fleet operation.

  50. Ask Me About My Flux Capacitor Fix Lag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arrador View Post
    posted 10 April 2006 - 02:57 AM
    IDGI

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