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[DevBlog] Incursions tweak and Nerfs to Cobalt Edge

  1. Glimmung jeffraider's Avatar
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    jew JEW jew JEW jew JEW jew JEW jew JEW jew JEW jew JEW jew JEW jew jew JEW jew JEW jew JEW jew JEW jew JEW jew JEW jew JEW jew JEW jew jew JEW jew JEW jew JEW jew JEW jew JEW jew JEW jew JEW jew JEW jew jew JEW jew JEW jew JEW jew JEW jew JEW jew JEW jew JEW jew JEW jew jew JEW jew JEW jew JEW jew JEW jew JEW jew JEW jew JEW jew JEW jew jew JEW jew JEW jew JEW jew JEW jew JEW jew JEW jew JEW jew JEW jew jew JEW jew JEW jew JEW jew JEW jew JEW jew JEW jew JEW jew JEW jew jew JEW jew JEW jew JEW jew JEW jew JEW jew JEW jew JEW jew JEW jew jew JEW jew JEW jew JEW jew JEW jew JEW jew JEW jew JEW jew JEW jew jew JEW jew JEW jew JEW jew JEW jew JEW jew JEW jew JEW jew JEW jew
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  2. King Dong
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    Double Resebo Nightmares shouldn't lock frigs before Legions lock and kill them hth.

    And anecdotal evidence that begins with "Every time I..." is not exactly a valid manner of comparison.

    PS You are all actually arguing about your elite PvE.

  3. Promiscuous
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    Quote Originally Posted by July View Post
    Edit: LOL You edited your post, but it was too late. xD
    Yes I did, because I realised that based on your previous posting you would probably need it spelled out for you. Incursions made considerably more max ISK in a much easier fashion than optimised lvl4 missions. Deal with it.

  4. The Empire never ended July's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucas Quaan View Post
    Yes I did, because I realised that based on your previous posting you would probably need it spelled out for you. Incursions made considerably more max ISK in a much easier fashion than optimised lvl4 missions. Deal with it.
    "Optimized" L4s make 140-160m/hour. There are multiple people that have confirmed this. "Optimized" Incursions make 150-180m/hour, spiking to 200m/hour in very short bursts. Incursions have hard downtimes (when motherships pop) and the downtimes brought upon relying on 9 other nerds to be ready to nonstop poopsock with you whereas running L4s only downtime is your body refusing to shoot red boxes any longer. One road requires you to spreadsheets, the other requires you to organizing a network of poopsocking nerds that aren't going to get your ship killed. It makes me laugh when you act like spreadsheeting LP stores properly (or just stealing a buddy's) is some kind of gargantuan effort when compared to the latter.



    Basically, if you're saying that an organized group of 10 people in X shiney ship shouldn't make 40-60 mill more an hour than the same ship solo in an L4, and instead you'd rather the group of organized 10 ships making LESS than the individual, then maybe you're the one that needs shit spelled out for you.
    [URL="http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=12609601"][ 2012.03.02 08:32:51 ] Kurth Ren > whereas love squad avoids any engagement that is not a onesided curbstomp[/URL]
    [URL="http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=11888507"][ 2012.03.02 08:34:08 ] Kurth Ren > but you are literally arguing with the inventor of broski, you aren't going to win a debate about broski history with me[/URL]
    [URL="http://unidan.net/killboard/?a=kill_related&kll_id=1876"][ 2012.03.02 08:40:48 ] Kurth Ren > it's filled with bitter faggots who would rather be slaves to finns and run at the first sign of a fight then go on ops[/URL]

  5. Animal Kingdom tgr's Avatar
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    Or maybe some L4s need some "adjustments" to be made.
    Turning pretend colourblind angels from spaceship to madship samurais, one post at a time.

  6. The Idiot Bastard Son Kanloch's Avatar
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    Or nerf L4s entirely, make them do L5s in groups like mini incursion sites.

  7. The Empire never ended July's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tgr View Post
    Or maybe some L4s need some "adjustments" to be made.
    I don't want to derail too much into L4 talk, but the way the LP store works would be very difficult to tweak them without completely breaking the LP stores.

    But this goes back to what I said here:
    Quote Originally Posted by July View Post
    I would be happier about the nerf if it meant people would stop crying about people in highsec making money, but all that's going to happen is people are slowly going to find out how much l4 runners make now without the Concord LP conversions flooding markets and people will begin to cry about it.
    People seem to have adopted this idea that the way to "fix" 0.0 (aka bring more people into it) is by making highsec so fucking shit the pubbies will have no choice but to go to 0.0 if they want to make any isk at all outside of margin trading. These people seem to forget that there were people still mining veldspar in highsec when trit prices were ~2 isk/unit. You can't make highsec much shittier than sucking up veldspar for 2 isk/trit, but people to this day continue doing it. You're not going to convince those people to leave highsec by making it shittier. The way I see it the only way to get them to want to move to 0.0 is to make 0.0 better, not make highsec worse.

    Basically, I believe we should be trying to figure out a way to give people an incentive to come to the fabled land of 0.0, not giving people an incentive to flee highsec because it's a pile of shit. There's a difference there and people seem to have trouble seeing it. Never mind that pile of shit would be our doorstep to new players.

    [spoiler=Bad Metaphor]There are 2 houses, House H(ighsec) and House N(ullsec). Most people live in House H and are scared of living in House N. People are presented with a question: How do you get people to move from House H to House N?

    A lot of people are opting to get people to move into House N by taking handfuls of shit and smearing it all over the inside walls, ceiling, and floor of House H. These people are overlooking the possibility of making people want to move to House N by putting better utilities and accommodations in House N. Maybe add a pool or garden.[/spoiler]
    [URL="http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=12609601"][ 2012.03.02 08:32:51 ] Kurth Ren > whereas love squad avoids any engagement that is not a onesided curbstomp[/URL]
    [URL="http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=11888507"][ 2012.03.02 08:34:08 ] Kurth Ren > but you are literally arguing with the inventor of broski, you aren't going to win a debate about broski history with me[/URL]
    [URL="http://unidan.net/killboard/?a=kill_related&kll_id=1876"][ 2012.03.02 08:40:48 ] Kurth Ren > it's filled with bitter faggots who would rather be slaves to finns and run at the first sign of a fight then go on ops[/URL]

  8. Don't stop posting! Grath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by July View Post

    A lot of people are opting to get people to move into House N by taking handfuls of shit and smearing it all over the inside walls, ceiling, and floor of House H. These people are overlooking the possibility of making people want to move to House N by putting better utilities and accommodations in House N. Maybe add a pool or garden.[/spoiler]
    I personally think it'll never happen, EVE is full of the most risk averse faggots I've ever met. If i could somehow get Grath transfered to the chineese EVE server you'd literally never see me again.


    Why?

    Because on CEVE the players just "got" that 0.0 was the natural progression, most of them actually LIVE in 0.0, the games population may be low, but most of the people that do play play out there.

  9. God is dead. They found his carcass in 2019.. Malcanis's Avatar
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    Hi sec and nullsec both need fixing; hi-sec needs more risk, nullsec needs more reward.

    (Vastly oversimplifying my thoughts for the sake of a soundbite here but that's the core of it)

  10. Legitimate Rape Baby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grath View Post
    I personally think it'll never happen, EVE is full of the most risk averse faggots I've ever met. If i could somehow get Grath transfered to the chineese EVE server you'd literally never see me again.


    Why?

    Because on CEVE the players just "got" that 0.0 was the natural progression, most of them actually LIVE in 0.0, the games population may be low, but most of the people that do play play out there.
    And they're Chinese? Let's face it; westerners by and large are much more risk averse than we used to be or should be. Our bubble wrap mentality translates to games, as well.

  11. Inconstant Moon Prodnovick's Avatar
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    I wouldn't say I am risk averse but I dock my 2 bill tengu when a neut pops into local. On the other hand I solo pvp in ships that i can sometimes hardly afford to replace because Zagdul won't pay for solo losses . It's just common sense that you don't want to lose your isk generating assets and it's something that's not going to change.

    Incursions needed a nerf but ccp went too far, I think a nerf to concord response in incursion systems would have been much better and it would definitely create more content. That or just something that makes regular pvp a part of high sec incursions.

  12. Statler MpozoY's Avatar
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    Like I said before the point of highsec incursions wasn't supposed to be increased isk/hr, it was supposed to get solo L4 running NPC corp players to group up for once. The incursion is supposed to swing around and fuck up mission hubs, cutting off L4s as an isk source until the incursion is dealt with; theoretically the mission runners might then stay grouped to run missions (and, theoretically, form their own corp and be wardeccable.) The flaws in this idea are semi-obvious but these tweaks bring implementation much closer to intent.

    I'd like to see Concord response times twiddled with too but I'm not seeing it in the cards at the moment.

  13. I'm Only in It for the Money Grim's Avatar
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    Based on the crimewatch presentation from fanfest concords response might be getting a little quicker by just automatically having your ship explode a short time after you GCC. The short time being based on system security status I guess.
    If you kill enough of them they stop fighting - Gen. Curtis Lemay
    Fear the KKM

  14. Legitimate Rape Baby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prodnovick View Post
    I wouldn't say I am risk averse but I dock my 2 bill tengu when a neut pops into local. On the other hand I solo pvp in ships that i can sometimes hardly afford to replace because Zagdul won't pay for solo losses . It's just common sense that you don't want to lose your isk generating assets and it's something that's not going to change.

    Incursions needed a nerf but ccp went too far, I think a nerf to concord response in incursion systems would have been much better and it would definitely create more content. That or just something that makes regular pvp a part of high sec incursions.
    I'm not big on wanting to lose my isk generators. I'm just more OK with the knowledge it might happen. I'm willing to take a risk, not throwing my ships into a grinder for no reason.

    I'm just saying (to Grath) that culture has something to do with why CEVE players GOT null.

  15. Animal Kingdom tgr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by July View Post
    People seem to have adopted this idea that the way to "fix" 0.0 (aka bring more people into it) is by making highsec so fucking shit the pubbies will have no choice but to go to 0.0 if they want to make any isk at all outside of margin trading. These people seem to forget that there were people still mining veldspar in highsec when trit prices were ~2 isk/unit. You can't make highsec much shittier than sucking up veldspar for 2 isk/trit, but people to this day continue doing it. You're not going to convince those people to leave highsec by making it shittier. The way I see it the only way to get them to want to move to 0.0 is to make 0.0 better, not make highsec worse.
    I'd say the solution is less about "making hisec so fucking shit", and more about CCP needing to figure out what they want to set as a nominal income rate for the individual pilot doing individual piloty things, in each type of zone, and bringing them all in line with that target.

    And then make sure that actually living in nullsec space is better than hisec, and this in particular includes the ability to upgrade stations to be vastly better than they are in hisec. There's also a few things which I can say should definitely not be done, but then someone'll just start whining about how risk averse we are.
    Turning pretend colourblind angels from spaceship to madship samurais, one post at a time.

  16. Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex Holdem's Avatar
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    What about them level 5's, they should be made unblitzable as well. tyvm

  17. Legitimate Rape Baby
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    Quote Originally Posted by tgr View Post
    I'd say the solution is less about "making hisec so fucking shit", and more about CCP needing to figure out what they want to set as a nominal income rate for the individual pilot doing individual piloty things, in each type of zone, and bringing them all in line with that target.

    And then make sure that actually living in nullsec space is better than hisec, and this in particular includes the ability to upgrade stations to be vastly better than they are in hisec. There's also a few things which I can say should definitely not be done, but then someone'll just start whining about how risk averse we are.
    LOL, I haz ideas but I won't share them because I'm criticism averse.

    /satisfied?

  18. I'm Only in It for the Money Grim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manfred Hideous View Post
    LOL, I haz ideas but I won't share them because I'm criticism averse.

    /satisfied?

    A sov upgrade that has concord kill all hostiles who enter your ratting system?
    If you kill enough of them they stop fighting - Gen. Curtis Lemay
    Fear the KKM

  19. Inconstant Moon Prodnovick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grim View Post
    A sov upgrade that has concord kill all hostiles who enter your ratting system?
    You mean like high sec? Because that is basically what a npc corp mission runner has, even after wardeck changes. Before the wardeck changes they could just make a corp with 0% taxes and just drop corp if a wardeck came with 0 risk involved. Not sure how it will be now but they won't be 100% safe all the time I assume.

  20. The Empire never ended July's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tgr View Post
    I'd say the solution is less about "making hisec so fucking shit", and more about CCP needing to figure out what they want to set as a nominal income rate for the individual pilot doing individual piloty things, in each type of zone, and bringing them all in line with that target.

    And then make sure that actually living in nullsec space is better than hisec, and this in particular includes the ability to upgrade stations to be vastly better than they are in hisec. There's also a few things which I can say should definitely not be done, but then someone'll just start whining about how risk averse we are.
    I agree. A good idea would be the addition of new station upgrades. Perhaps ones that make manufacturing slots/research slots in player made sov stations vastly superior than those in highsec. Faster research/faster manufacturing. Hell, you could even add upgrades to your cloning services so that your clones would be cheaper than in NPC stations. (Of course these upgrades would have to somehow be vulnerable to attack.) These are the type of utilities/accomodations that I'm referring to. Add benefits for the individual living in 0.0.

    The main goal should be to make the benefits of living in 0.0 outweigh the benefits on Concord. The issue in regards income is that CCP is at the mercy of the market. Right now inflation is running rampant, so even if they sat down and the researchers said, "Okay, the best way to fix this is to buff ratting income in 0.0" they wouldn't be able to because it would make the inflation problem that much worse. (Which bring me to another thing about incursions I absolutely loved: You had to be at your desk doing them, you couldn't bot them.)
    [URL="http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=12609601"][ 2012.03.02 08:32:51 ] Kurth Ren > whereas love squad avoids any engagement that is not a onesided curbstomp[/URL]
    [URL="http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=11888507"][ 2012.03.02 08:34:08 ] Kurth Ren > but you are literally arguing with the inventor of broski, you aren't going to win a debate about broski history with me[/URL]
    [URL="http://unidan.net/killboard/?a=kill_related&kll_id=1876"][ 2012.03.02 08:40:48 ] Kurth Ren > it's filled with bitter faggots who would rather be slaves to finns and run at the first sign of a fight then go on ops[/URL]

  21. Promiscuous Combat Scrub's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by July View Post
    I agree. A good idea would be the addition of new station upgrades. Perhaps ones that make manufacturing slots/research slots in player made sov stations vastly superior than those in highsec. Faster research/faster manufacturing. Hell, you could even add upgrades to your cloning services so that your clones would be cheaper than in NPC stations. (Of course these upgrades would have to somehow be vulnerable to attack.) These are the type of utilities/accomodations that I'm referring to. Add benefits for the individual living in 0.0.
    Why should nullsec outposts be better than empire stations?

    I think they should be upgradable to equivalent of empire, but why would they be better? Why is your outpost in the middle of nowhere better than a station running inside the busiest trade hub in the game? After all, it is yours, and yours alone. You don't have to share it with hundreds of wannabe manufacturers/researchers/BP owners who tie up all the production lines for their 500,000 rounds of small nuclear sabot.

  22. Legitimate Rape Baby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combat Scrub View Post
    Why should nullsec outposts be better than empire stations?

    I think they should be upgradable to equivalent of empire, but why would they be better? Why is your outpost in the middle of nowhere better than a station running inside the busiest trade hub in the game? After all, it is yours, and yours alone. You don't have to share it with hundreds of wannabe manufacturers/researchers/BP owners who tie up all the production lines for their 500,000 rounds of small nuclear sabot.
    I think the first thing they should consider doing is making them upgradable to have all of the services available at empire equiv. A minnie outpost should have a full on factory as an upgrade, as well as offices and research. Who knows, if this were the case people might drop fewer of the things and upgrade what they have.

    Than again, it would reduce the need for intra-station traffic, decreasing risk.

  23. "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combat Scrub View Post
    Why should nullsec outposts be better than empire stations?

    I think they should be upgradable to equivalent of empire, but why would they be better? Why is your outpost in the middle of nowhere better than a station running inside the busiest trade hub in the game? After all, it is yours, and yours alone. You don't have to share it with hundreds of wannabe manufacturers/researchers/BP owners who tie up all the production lines for their 500,000 rounds of small nuclear sabot.
    Same reason why big companies move their production to third world countries.

    Living in 0.0 is an big effort, especially if u dont hold sov. July is actually right, making industry better in 0.0 will create trade hubs, and trade hubs will atract pvpers cause you can buy and fit your ship in npc or sov space without taking a trip to jita.

  24. Inconstant Moon Prodnovick's Avatar
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    I really hope they buff nullsec manufacturing after they made mining viable again. It would really create a new dynamic for nullsec.

  25. Animal Kingdom tgr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combat Scrub View Post
    Why should nullsec outposts be better than empire stations?
    Simple. Less safety, more reward. In this case, things like quicker build times, more slots, quicker copy/research/invention etc (or higher invention rate), to incentivize local industry further.
    Turning pretend colourblind angels from spaceship to madship samurais, one post at a time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prodnovick View Post
    I really hope they buff nullsec manufacturing after they made mining viable again. It would really create a new dynamic for nullsec.
    It would make Providence valuable again.
    If you kill enough of them they stop fighting - Gen. Curtis Lemay
    Fear the KKM

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    Quote Originally Posted by Combat Scrub View Post
    Why should nullsec outposts be better than empire stations?
    No EPA to bitch about all the toxic waste you're dumping into the environment. </RP>

  28. Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex Wki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marko Box View Post
    Same reason why big companies move their production to third world countries.

    Living in 0.0 is an big effort, especially if u dont hold sov. July is actually right, making industry better in 0.0 will create trade hubs, and trade hubs will atract pvpers cause you can buy and fit your ship in npc or sov space without taking a trip to jita.
    Most sov holder alliances have trade hubs. It would be more beneficial to pvpers to have trade hubs in npc space to reship where they can dock. It really is a chicken/egg problem. Will trade hubs make the region more active? Or will having people in the region make trade hubs? No one is going to set up orders in a place no one visits (or rarely visits).
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  29. The Empire never ended July's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combat Scrub View Post
    Why should nullsec outposts be better than empire stations?

    I think they should be upgradable to equivalent of empire, but why would they be better? Why is your outpost in the middle of nowhere better than a station running inside the busiest trade hub in the game? After all, it is yours, and yours alone. You don't have to share it with hundreds of wannabe manufacturers/researchers/BP owners who tie up all the production lines for their 500,000 rounds of small nuclear sabot.
    More risk, more reward. You move to sov 0.0 for your manufacturing and you get rewarded more than if you just throw down your blueprints a few jumps from Jita. Unless you mean the "roleplaying" aspect of why would technology be better in which case I could generate bullshit about not having to follow enforced ethical practices imposed by Highsec factions/Concord.

    This is just ONE dimension of of it, too. Having upgraded clone bays that are more cost efficient at cloning because they use substances outlawed in highsec (lol roleplayer aspect) would give many old pilots who are paying 40 mill a pod a boner. And I'm sure your far more creative minds could come up with other non-game breaking benefits to putting roots in sov 0.0.

    Let's not stray too far from the main point: Generating benefits to living in 0.0 will get more people out there. There would be more people(renters) trying to come in and take advantage of space for their upgraded manufacturing outposts, and would need to defend said vulnerable upgrades from attackers.



    In regards to the chicken/egg for trade hubs, at this point it doesn't matter. If my proposed changes were magically put in I could already name 2 station systems that would begin putting in said upgrades: VFK and 6VDT. Never mind the countless renter opportunities that would arise. Especially if you could somehow internally manage who had access to the benefits similar to the system used to manage access to chat channels. So you could sell the increased performance services to buyers etc. The ideas are out there, we just have get out of the "nerf highsec" mentality and into the "buff nullsec" one.

    Edit: Another benefit of the upgraded services idea would be that the NPC 0.0 squatters that sov entities hate so much would be put at a tangible disadvantage.
    [URL="http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=12609601"][ 2012.03.02 08:32:51 ] Kurth Ren > whereas love squad avoids any engagement that is not a onesided curbstomp[/URL]
    [URL="http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=11888507"][ 2012.03.02 08:34:08 ] Kurth Ren > but you are literally arguing with the inventor of broski, you aren't going to win a debate about broski history with me[/URL]
    [URL="http://unidan.net/killboard/?a=kill_related&kll_id=1876"][ 2012.03.02 08:40:48 ] Kurth Ren > it's filled with bitter faggots who would rather be slaves to finns and run at the first sign of a fight then go on ops[/URL]

  30. Promiscuous Combat Scrub's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marko Box View Post
    Same reason why big companies move their production to third world countries.

    Living in 0.0 is an big effort, especially if u dont hold sov. July is actually right, making industry better in 0.0 will create trade hubs, and trade hubs will atract pvpers cause you can buy and fit your ship in npc or sov space without taking a trip to jita.
    Um, we aren't talking about NPC null. NPC null stations are WAY better than player outposts already. And with only a little effort NPC null is "safer" than sovereign null, because you will always have docking rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by tgr View Post
    Simple. Less safety, more reward. In this case, things like quicker build times, more slots, quicker copy/research/invention etc (or higher invention rate), to incentivize local industry further.
    How are you less safe in your invulnerable, indestructible, private station?

    Seriously, I believe that player outposts should have the same capabilities as far as number of R&D & Manufacturing lines. I think that the fallout from the Drone and Loot nerfs is going to revitalize the concept of nullsec mining, so the raw materials will be there. Making outpost production equivalent to empire stations is a logical next step, but claiming you need better-than empire capabilities to incentivize local industry? Let's start by asking for equivalent capability. If you get that, and with local industry you still need to import vast quantities of items due to lack of available production lines, you have a good business case to push back at CCP for more.

  31. The Empire never ended July's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combat Scrub View Post
    Um, we aren't talking about NPC null. NPC null stations are WAY better than player outposts already. And with only a little effort NPC null is "safer" than sovereign null, because you will always have docking rights.



    How are you less safe in your invulnerable, indestructible, private station?

    Seriously, I believe that player outposts should have the same capabilities as far as number of R&D & Manufacturing lines. I think that the fallout from the Drone and Loot nerfs is going to revitalize the concept of nullsec mining, so the raw materials will be there. Making outpost production equivalent to empire stations is a logical next step, but claiming you need better-than empire capabilities to incentivize local industry? Let's start by asking for equivalent capability. If you get that, and with local industry you still need to import vast quantities of items due to lack of available production lines, you have a good business case to push back at CCP for more.
    Of course other changes would have to be put in. As I said from my very post on this, the upgraded services would have to be very vulnerable to attack. Disabling "advanced services" could potentially become the small gang targets people have been asking for. The reason I insist the advanced services be better than highsec/npc is because if they're the same there is literally no reason to not just squat in NPC 0.0 where you ALWAYS have docking rights. It goes back to the problem of having the same benefits but with more risk.

    The increased risk of losing access to the station or having the advanced services disabled incessantly by roaming gangs would REQUIRE more reward. Never mind the isk investment needed for installing the advanced services.
    [URL="http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=12609601"][ 2012.03.02 08:32:51 ] Kurth Ren > whereas love squad avoids any engagement that is not a onesided curbstomp[/URL]
    [URL="http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=11888507"][ 2012.03.02 08:34:08 ] Kurth Ren > but you are literally arguing with the inventor of broski, you aren't going to win a debate about broski history with me[/URL]
    [URL="http://unidan.net/killboard/?a=kill_related&kll_id=1876"][ 2012.03.02 08:40:48 ] Kurth Ren > it's filled with bitter faggots who would rather be slaves to finns and run at the first sign of a fight then go on ops[/URL]

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    Lets not go overboard here. Nullsec will never be self sufficient for the simple reason that it would require vast amounts of miners/indy people, and they would get the shit griefed out of them by NPC dwellers. A boost would help, but importing from empire will probably never become secondary unless JFs get nerfed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combat Scrub View Post
    How are you less safe in your invulnerable, indestructible, private station?
    I can't be completely locked out of a station in hisec. You just said this yourself. And sooner or later, we'll probably have destructible outposts, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Combat Scrub View Post
    If you get that, and with local industry you still need to import vast quantities of items due to lack of available production lines, you have a good business case to push back at CCP for more.
    Would this imply multiple stations pr system?
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    Quote Originally Posted by July View Post
    "Optimized" L4s make 140-160m/hour. There are multiple people that have confirmed this. "Optimized" Incursions make 150-180m/hour, spiking to 200m/hour in very short bursts.
    Optimising lvl4 missions means cherry-picking missions, setting up buy orders for tags, calculating LP conversions and possibly dealing with both market and contract PVP. Optimising incursions means taking the fleet warp and shooting the primary. One takes considerably more effort. The other is also a pure ISK faucet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucas Quaan View Post
    Optimising lvl4 missions means cherry-picking missions, setting up buy orders for tags, calculating LP conversions and possibly dealing with both market and contract PVP. Optimising incursions means taking the fleet warp and shooting the primary. One takes considerably more effort. The other is also a pure ISK faucet.
    Again, organizing people into fleets to hit the optimized incursion isk/hour is an orchestrated effort between multiple people that you're trying your damnest to belittle, but then turning around and making spreadsheeting out to be this tremendous feat that deserves the greater isk reward. It comes down to a difference of opinion because I believe getting dozens of nerds organized is more of a headache than spreadsheeting, so let's just agree to disagree.


    P.S. - In regards to the isk faucet/inflation issue I encourage you to read this.
    [URL="http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=12609601"][ 2012.03.02 08:32:51 ] Kurth Ren > whereas love squad avoids any engagement that is not a onesided curbstomp[/URL]
    [URL="http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=11888507"][ 2012.03.02 08:34:08 ] Kurth Ren > but you are literally arguing with the inventor of broski, you aren't going to win a debate about broski history with me[/URL]
    [URL="http://unidan.net/killboard/?a=kill_related&kll_id=1876"][ 2012.03.02 08:40:48 ] Kurth Ren > it's filled with bitter faggots who would rather be slaves to finns and run at the first sign of a fight then go on ops[/URL]

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    Quote Originally Posted by tgr View Post
    I can't be completely locked out of a station in hisec. You just said this yourself. And sooner or later, we'll probably have destructible outposts, too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Combat Scrub
    If you get that, and with local industry you still need to import vast quantities of items due to lack of available production lines, you have a good business case to push back at CCP for more.
    Would this imply multiple stations pr system?
    There are way to many possible ways to implement destructible outposts to claim that feature as a lack of safety.

    Multiple stations are a tough one. I want to say yes, but then you HAVE to separate the station from the system sovereignty grind, to prevent station spam as a sovereignty tactic. Then you have to deal with who can deploy a station where, and it just creates a rathole. Not impossible, but not an easy thing to have multiple stations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Combat Scrub View Post
    There are way to many possible ways to implement destructible outposts to claim that feature as a lack of safety.
    Doesn't negate the fact that getting locked out of a station is a "lack of safety" feature. I would unironically love it if outposts being blown up would mean that it would do exactly that, go kapoof, with no recourse for getting stuff in there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Combat Scrub View Post
    Multiple stations are a tough one. I want to say yes, but then you HAVE to separate the station from the system sovereignty grind, to prevent station spam as a sovereignty tactic. Then you have to deal with who can deploy a station where, and it just creates a rathole. Not impossible, but not an easy thing to have multiple stations.
    I see absolutely no reason why a station should affect sov, instead of sov affect station(s). As to why there should be a huge upgrade compared to today, at the very least, is ... well, just look at how much more convenient hisec is. Perfect refine is easily possible in the same station as you can do manufacturing in, etc. Why is that not easily possible in nullsec? Why is it much easier and cheaper to just import pre-built stuff instead of even importing raw materials and building out in nullsec?
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    Regarding the need for a revamp of nullsec industry and general moneymaking activities, I think the answer lies in the POS revamp CCP is talking about as of late. If POS factories and refineries become a viable and scalable option, local manufacturing would be much easier. IMO, outpost factories/labs/refineries should remain small in exchange for the safety of docking in a nearly invulnerable structure.

    EDIT: Look at it this way: if manufacturer x wants to build stuff, he can either wait for the high-demand outpost lines to clear a slot, or anchor a small POS in a random spot. If POS factories are balanced in a way that the overhead of manteinance doesn't kill the possibllity of profit, this opens manufacturing to anyone willing to anchor a factory somewhere in null/lowsec. Now, make it so that when this factories/labs/refineries blow up you get phatlewt, and you've got yourself the famed farms and fields.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combat Scrub View Post
    Seriously, I believe that player outposts should have the same capabilities as far as number of R&D & Manufacturing lines. I think that the fallout from the Drone and Loot nerfs is going to revitalize the concept of nullsec mining, so the raw materials will be there. Making outpost production equivalent to empire stations is a logical next step, but claiming you need better-than empire capabilities to incentivize local industry? Let's start by asking for equivalent capability. If you get that, and with local industry you still need to import vast quantities of items due to lack of available production lines, you have a good business case to push back at CCP for more.
    There is one catch to this. While null sec mining got a whole lot more interesting, the production in nullsec is still as painful as ever. It is possible to get loads of hi-end ore, but there is no reasonable way of getting enough low-ends. Tritanium, pyerite and mexallon - production of pretty much anything requires metric fucktons of these and right now to get something build fast, you have to buy that from the hisec asteroid huggers.

    So, to achieve nullsec manufacturing independancy, availability of the low-end ore in null would have to increase (a lot).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Setrof View Post
    There is one catch to this. While null sec mining got a whole lot more interesting, the production in nullsec is still as painful as ever. It is possible to get loads of hi-end ore, but there is no reasonable way of getting enough low-ends. Tritanium, pyerite and mexallon - production of pretty much anything requires metric fucktons of these and right now to get something build fast, you have to buy that from the hisec asteroid huggers.

    So, to achieve nullsec manufacturing independancy, availability of the low-end ore in null would have to increase (a lot).
    This. But I'd love to see uneven distribution of lowend minerals across nullsec, so mexallon is available in every area, but some have shitloads more than the others. Conflic driving and all that.

    Now, if we're talking of pipe dreams, why not change refining? I'd change it into a slot-based and timed mechanic, much like factories and labs. That'd force people to set up POS refineries and reinforce my idea posted above, where you can anchor slow but very efficient refineries or fast and inneficient ones, depending on your needs.
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    It's fucking retarded that you have to move minerals to a manufacturing station after refining the ore. It's so much work that people just won't bother. There also need to be way more lines available to make null sec production viable.

    Manufacturing in a pos is eaqually stupid if we are talking about a serious industry and not just making a few things now and then.

    >Mine the minerals
    >haul them to the closest station
    >haul them to a refining station
    >haul them to a production station/pos
    >haul manufactured item to the local hub

    This is the worst case scenario but compare it to high sec, where you can do all it in one well chosen station before shipping to Jita.

  42. God is dead. They found his carcass in 2019.. Malcanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Setrof View Post
    There is one catch to this. While null sec mining got a whole lot more interesting, the production in nullsec is still as painful as ever. It is possible to get loads of hi-end ore, but there is no reasonable way of getting enough low-ends. Tritanium, pyerite and mexallon - production of pretty much anything requires metric fucktons of these and right now to get something build fast, you have to buy that from the hisec asteroid huggers.

    So, to achieve nullsec manufacturing independancy, availability of the low-end ore in null would have to increase (a lot).
    What are you saying? That there aren't scores of moon-sized veldroids in every 0.0 belt?

    It's not that the low ends aren't there, it's that they aren't mined.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iratus View Post
    Regarding the need for a revamp of nullsec industry and general moneymaking activities, I think the answer lies in the POS revamp CCP is talking about as of late. If POS factories and refineries become a viable and scalable option, local manufacturing would be much easier. IMO, outpost factories/labs/refineries should remain small in exchange for the safety of docking in a nearly invulnerable structure.

    EDIT: Look at it this way: if manufacturer x wants to build stuff, he can either wait for the high-demand outpost lines to clear a slot, or anchor a small POS in a random spot. If POS factories are balanced in a way that the overhead of manteinance doesn't kill the possibllity of profit, this opens manufacturing to anyone willing to anchor a factory somewhere in null/lowsec. Now, make it so that when this factories/labs/refineries blow up you get phatlewt, and you've got yourself the famed farms and fields.
    I, too, would like to give POS anchoring roles to everyone who wants to set up their own manufacturing tower(s). Nothing bad could possibly come of that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prodnovick View Post
    It's fucking retarded that you have to move minerals to a manufacturing station after refining the ore. It's so much work that people just won't bother. There also need to be way more lines available to make null sec production viable.

    Manufacturing in a pos is eaqually stupid if we are talking about a serious industry and not just making a few things now and then.

    >Mine the minerals
    >haul them to the closest station
    >haul them to a refining station
    >haul them to a production station/pos
    >haul manufactured item to the local hub

    This is the worst case scenario but compare it to high sec, where you can do all it in one well chosen station before shipping to Jita.
    I may sound like a broken record nobody is paying attention to, but here it goes:

    Why not solve that with POSes, instead of buffing outposts? If a serious manufacturer wants to build stuff, force him to either jump trough hoops to do it safely in stations, or to build his own POS with everything he needs. If he wants to do it all in one place, he can set it up in a mining system, where he hauls the minerals into it, refines them and builds whatever he wants, and then hauls the result to the local hub.

    If it's properly scaled, a small time guy can build a simple factory where he hauls the minerals he bought in a refinery, and poops out ammo. The bigger his opperation becomes, the more stuff he anchors into his POS. Outposts should remain limmited in exchange for the safety they provide.

    Quote Originally Posted by tgr View Post
    I, too, would like to give POS anchoring roles to everyone who wants to set up their own manufacturing tower(s). Nothing bad could possibly come of that.
    That's assuming the current anchoring mechanics remain the same. POSes need more granularity, after all, and CCP said that they want POSes to be something everyone wants to have. If that's going to happen, they'll have to change current mechanics so alliance assets can't be unanchored by everyone.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    What are you saying? That there aren't scores of moon-sized veldroids in every 0.0 belt?

    It's not that the low ends aren't there, it's that they aren't mined.
    Well yes, there are the regular belts with low-end asteroids the size of my nuts.
    The people that mine don't do it because they like it. They do it because they can do it semi-afk. Just jettison the ore every few minutes and be done with it.
    Mining asteroids in regular belts doesn't cut it as they're just too small and too widely spread (and slowboating in a Hulk from asteroid to asteroid is about as desirable as catching syphilis).

    Take for example the 'big' veldspar roids from Moderate asteroid cluster. There's 13 of them and each has 1 260 000 veldspar. A multiboxer flying 5 hulks will make one such asteroid disappear in under 10 minutes, yielding ~3.7m tritanium.

    To get an idea of tritanium consumption, an Abaddon blueprint will take ~13m tritanium a pop along with other minerals.

    Now imagine that asteroids in the regular belts might have like 50k veldspar in them... See where I'm getting at?
    It's not that miners mind mining low end ores, it's just that it isn't present in nullsec in an acceptable form - which would be huge roids that take hours to mine out. Mining itself is a boring job and spending half of that time slowboating and rewarping in the belt is just a big no-no.
    And don't even get me started on wasted strip miner cycles that inevitably come along with mining small asteroids... /cutwrist

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iratus View Post
    That's assuming the current mechanics remain the same. POSes need more granularity, after all.
    Yes, it is assuming exactly that. I'd love to see POSes become more flexible so I could anchor my own POS for whenever I needed to research a BPO and the ONE ME research slot in the station I keep it in is taken for 30 fucking days, so I have to travel 5 jumps to get to the next station with a ME slot. Which is also taken for 30 days.

    And speaking of research, I either have to put it in the POS itself, or put the BPO in a corp hangar and setup the job as a corp job, which means other people can stop the job and steal the BPO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iratus View Post
    I may sound like a broken record nobody is paying attention to, but here it goes:
    This all hinges on POSes not being a managementorial nightmare. I've yet to see CCP give any hint they'd let them be anything other than corp assets, and as such make it unfeasible for individuals to make their own POSes. It'll probably be argued that it should be a corp asset, but if I want to be able to keep my BPOs separate from the rest of the corp because I don't want to risk corp thieves, then I'm fucked, and I don't think I should be.
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  47. Truth. As terrible as death. But harder to find Brooks Puuntai's Avatar
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    Industry in 0.0 will never be able to be compete with high-sec so long as there are blanket corp roles when it comes to POSs and manufacturing. Add to the fact that production lines in outposts really should be infinite or at least increase them 50x and remove the increased mineral requirements on adv POS modules.

    When it comes to low-ends it really has to do with logistics. If logistics was harder to move things back and forth from high to null then people would be forced to mine the lowends. Other wise its stupid to waste time mining lowends, when you can just mine high ends and move what you don't need back to empire and sell it then buy low-end shit and ship it back up. It wouldn't matter a bit if Veld rocks where infinite, its all about maximizing time and profit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iratus View Post
    I may sound like a broken record nobody is paying attention to, but here it goes:

    Why not solve that with POSes, instead of buffing outposts? If a serious manufacturer wants to build stuff, force him to either jump trough hoops to do it safely in stations, or to build his own POS with everything he needs. If he wants to do it all in one place, he can set it up in a mining system, where he hauls the minerals into it, refines them and builds whatever he wants, and then hauls the result to the local hub.

    If it's properly scaled, a small time guy can build a simple factory where he hauls the minerals he bought in a refinery, and poops out ammo. The bigger his opperation becomes, the more stuff he anchors into his POS. Outposts should remain limmited in exchange for the safety they provide.



    That's assuming the current anchoring mechanics remain the same. POSes need more granularity, after all, and CCP said that they want POSes to be something everyone wants to have. If that's going to happen, they'll have to change current mechanics so alliance assets can't be unanchored by everyone.
    If poses remain corp assests you can unanchor a pos when you can put one down. There would be a lot of "where did the jammer go? suddenly titans" problems.

  49. Why Does It Hurt When I Pee? Della Monk's Avatar
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    It makes perfect sense for player outposts to be 'better' than empire stations. In empire, those slots are just what the owning corps will lease out, not what's available as a whole. That's where all those npc ships come from.
    K(awaii)ugu(u)tsumen

  50. I have galactorrhea :( Setrof's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brooks Puuntai View Post
    Industry in 0.0 will never be able to be compete with high-sec so long as there are blanket corp roles when it comes to POSs and manufacturing. Add to the fact that production lines in outposts really should be infinite or at least increase them 50x and remove the increased mineral requirements on adv POS modules.

    When it comes to low-ends it really has to do with logistics. If logistics was harder to move things back and forth from high to null then people would be forced to mine the lowends. Other wise its stupid to waste time mining lowends, when you can just mine high ends and move what you don't need back to empire and sell it then buy low-end shit and ship it back up. It wouldn't matter a bit if Veld rocks where infinite, its all about maximizing time and profit.
    It actually would. Depends on whether you mine just to make your wallet fat or you want to in fact build something.
    Keeping up the industry index involves a lot of mining, cherry picking out just ABCM ores won't do the trick volume wise. So miners are usually left with shooting the super shitty Spodumain anyways. That ore is so shitty, it's actually worth less than Veldspar! If I had to mine low-end ores for as long as I did mine that greenish piece o' crap that is Spodumain, I would probably find it delightful as I could at least use the materials right away.

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