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Dumb ideas to fix supercaps here

  1. This is harsh. Evaluate me Tappits's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sansa Comfrey View Post

    1. Reduce supercap ehp drastically. 80% reduction minimum. This is necessary to allow them to die when pinned by subcaps (but see below) even if they logoffski. This is also necessary to allow them to become vulnerable to dreadfleets without the dreads needing to be on field so long the entire fleet dies or every hictor/dictor on the field is cleaned off in the process of killing two or three.
    Only prob is log off timers so just change them from 15mins to 30mins and you will not have a prob killing them with sub caps.

  2. Whoremonger Sansa Comfrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grath View Post
    So what you want is one battle where we beat up supercaps with something, and while we've had a few super cap on supercap brawls, your over arching problem is that this is what you are hung up on. You want evidence.
    Actually, not really. Since I have so much evidence now for my side (not to mention CCP agreement), it doesn't really matter if one or two lone exceptions do pop up somewhere. However, the fact none has is rather revealing.
    We fought AAA, who have a HUGE number of titans and supers.
    So you killed a bunch of them massed together without deploying your own?
    We fought IT, who also had a huge super cap fleet.
    So you killed a bunch of them massed together without deploying your own?
    We engage NC, and until the Y- welp we had so completely stripped them of their manhood, despite them having such a huge super cap advantage, that we were beating their ass.
    So you killed a bunch of them massed together without deploying your own?
    Then we went down to re kill Altas and they again had AAA super cap back up, but that seemed to not matter at all in any of our planning.
    And these, too, died to your subcaps when they massed them? Wow, with all of those fights where your subcaps slaughtered the mass supercapitals, it's amazing how you've managed to keep it secret so long! Better inform CCP, maybe they'll change their minds on the nerfs you're so huffed up about.
    When we came back north the effect of our arrival was immediate, the great battles of 020 immediately were done, the fight was over.
    Yes yes PL is the greatest thing ever, thanks for the propaganda insertion I can't imagine how your manhood was feeling making a post without epeeninig like a WoW uberguilder showing off the size of his shoulderpads.
    So just because you are stuck with this dumb shit where strategy and planning are completely beyond your feeble fucking brain do not try to use that as some grand problem with supercaps.
    Newp, not worrying about that at all. My problem with them is both easily supported with evidence AND agreed with by CCP. Really, I just like watching the lengths apologists and protectionists go to pretend otherwise. I mean, seriously, if you posted the crap you post here anywhere that wasn't dripping with PL dicklicking you'd have been laughed off the forum as the biggest nerdraging whiner in history by now. It's no surprise you hide it here. Hell, not even for the content of it, just your inability to behave like an adult would be enough. They'd be wondering if you'll be like the kid in that youtube video who started slugging his monitor after losing Starcraft when the nerf finally hits...
    We fight them, we sometimes die to them, but there is an effective strategy that can be employed to remove them from the equation of a fight, its just that it doesn't fit into the "Bring x amount of x ship" so your too fucking stupid to get what it is.
    I was wondering when the spinning would start shifting to "eliminating them from the equation" rather than actually destroying them.
    I don't care if you don't like the evidence, much like your raging homosexuality it is as plain as the nose on your face.
    Seriously? Five minutes after whining that this was "the serious discussion forum" while complaining about the content of an on-topic post, you come back and call me gay? Self awareness. Learn it.

  3. Animal Kingdom tgr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tappits View Post
    Only prob is log off timers so just change them from 15mins to 30mins and you will not have a prob killing them with sub caps.
    You mean from 15 minutes to 15 minutes after aggression has stopped, regardless of whether or not you've logged out.

  4. Honey, Don't You Want a Man Like Me Elektrea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sansa Comfrey View Post
    Well the events of last night certainly proved one thing (besides that tgf, durrhurrdurr, and others are completely right and Grath, Dave T and other supercap protectionists continue to be wrong), and that is regardless of how you see the balance of supercaps (though if you seriously still can't tell that there's a problem there you're just plain too stupid to live at this point), the current incarnation of them is simply bad for the game, period.

    Sure, some people may claim that this is some kind of "eve is dying oh noes" post just like all the others in the past, but no. Sometimes a problem comes up that is really that bad. Just because someone foolishly shouted 'fire' in the theater in the past for kicks does not mean it is impossible for the theater to catch on fire. Eve is an eight year old game and it simply can't afford the kind of damage that the current supercap problem is causing. There has never, in Eve's history, been an element so out of whack it can only be countered by more of itself, not blobs not nanos not anything. When the only counter to a blob of supercaps is more supercaps you have entered a death spiral with no way out.

    Complicating things is the current sov system requiring supercap level of dps unless you want to be stupidly bored for many hours at a time.

    The best fix would be to eliminate all supercaps utterly and fix the sov system accordingly, but that isn't going to happen. So, the most realistic fix would be fourfold:

    1. Reduce supercap ehp drastically. 80% reduction minimum. This is necessary to allow them to die when pinned by subcaps (but see below) even if they logoffski. This is also necessary to allow them to become vulnerable to dreadfleets without the dreads needing to be on field so long the entire fleet dies or every hictor/dictor on the field is cleaned off in the process of killing two or three.

    2. Reduce mothership logistical ability. How this is accomplished is totally up to debate but the ability of a supercap fleet to become self sustaining needs to be eliminated. In fact I see no reason for a mothership to be able to remote rep at all unless dedicated to that ability to the expense of everything else, much like a subcap logistics ship.

    3. Completely eliminate the ability of both motherships and titans to target subcaps, and reduce effectiveness of fighter bombers against them, and correspondingly improve the balance of dreads vs supercaps. Ideally, a force will want to drop supercaps to kill sov structures and alliance level assets, regular caps to kill the supercaps, and subcaps to kill regular caps and tackle support.

    4. Improve supercap abilities against sov structures and alliance level assets, presumably through an overhaul of the sov system.

    This is going to become necessary if 0.0 is to be salvaged at some point. CCP is taking too long to fix things, as usual.
    These have to be the worst ideas for fixing supers I have seen yet.

  5. Whoremonger Sansa Comfrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tappits View Post
    Only prob is log off timers so just change them from 15mins to 30mins and you will not have a prob killing them with sub caps.
    You might get one or two more at a time, but no real significant difference. A better idea would simply be to not be able to logoffski anything bubbled.

  6. Fuck me I'm Famous! Grath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sansa Comfrey View Post
    I was wondering when the spinning would start shifting to "eliminating them from the equation" rather than actually destroying them.
    First, i didn't call you gay, i called you a faggot, i wouldn't insult gays like that.

    Second, you are a fucking retard, because if your enemy won't field supers, you have effectively beaten their supercap fleet.

    Strategy seems to be completely beyond you though so fuck it really, your just and angry faggot who probably got removed from their home by PL sometime in the past year.

  7. Animal Kingdom tgr's Avatar
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    You guys are productive.

  8. Honey, Don't You Want a Man Like Me Elektrea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sansa Comfrey View Post
    My problem with them is both easily supported with evidence AND agreed with by CCP. Really, I just like watching the lengths apologists and protectionists go to pretend otherwise. I mean, seriously, if you posted the crap you post here anywhere that wasn't dripping with PL dicklicking you'd have been laughed off the forum as the biggest nerdraging whiner in history by now. It's no surprise you hide it here. Hell, not even for the content of it, just your inability to behave like an adult would be enough. They'd be wondering if you'll be like the kid in that youtube video who started slugging his monitor after losing Starcraft when the nerf finally hits...
    Except he was the one who was never going to get a super, but caved when people keep bugging him about it. If ANY supercap nerf comes, I really doubt Grath, of everyone in PL, is gonna turn a fucking hair over it. Its like your making all this up in your own little eve universe where 700 subcaps can't be countered by anything else.

    Here I'll type it out in bold.

    :GASP: MAELSTROMS CAN'T COUNTER EVERYTHING IN EVE, LOOK FOR OTHER SHIPTYPES AND STOP CRYING ON THE FORUMS. ?

  9. Fuck me I'm Famous! Grath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tgr View Post
    You guys are productive.
    Its hard to be productive when somebody refuses to consider using strategy as a counter over numbers and fleet doctrines.


    He wants a hard counter he can quantify with ships and numbers, and fortunately for eve, there are methods that can be employed that don't rely only on that. That he refuses to see them as valid is beyond my ability to help.

  10. Whoremonger Sansa Comfrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grath View Post
    First, i didn't call you gay, i called you a faggot, i wouldn't insult gays like that. Second, you are a fucking retard, because if your enemy won't field supers, you have effectively beaten their supercap fleet. Strategy seems to be completely beyond you though so fuck it really, your just and angry faggot who probably got removed from their home by PL sometime in the past year.
    Technically, more like sometime in the past week since you're squatting in my home system right now (almost literally, since I saw you personally there yesterday). I haven't left yet though. But upset? No, two years in Cloud Ring, Fade, and most recently Pure Blind is more than enough for anyone. Heck, thank you for finally motivating me to get those cynos into position and put the ships in the carrier hangar. Your 'secondly' is much more interesting. I have a question for you, Grath, and I want you to answer it honestly without silly questions about alliance's manhoods or other baloney no one, probably not even you, actually believes. Why do you think these enemies won't field supers against your coalition? I mean I was on the other side of the equation once too, and I know why BOB didn't field supers against us - because they knew we'd field more if they did. I am just trying to figure out why you are incapable of believing that is still the case when it comes to you.

  11. Whoremonger Sansa Comfrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elektrea View Post
    Except he was the one who was never going to get a super, but caved when people keep bugging him about it. If ANY supercap nerf comes, I really doubt Grath, of everyone in PL, is gonna turn a fucking hair over it. Its like your making all this up in your own little eve universe where 700 subcaps can't be countered by anything else.
    Doesn't that apply more to you than to me? Your own Propagandas just recently said supercaps were dropped because Maelstroms in that weight of fleet can alpha anything subcap PL and coalition brings and you don't want to take that kind of hit when you don't need to.
    Here I'll type it out in bold. :GASP: MAELSTROMS CAN'T COUNTER EVERYTHING IN EVE, LOOK FOR OTHER SHIPTYPES AND STOP CRYING ON THE FORUMS. ?
    Indeed. Other shiptypes being Leviathans, Ragnaroks, Erebuses, and Avatars...

  12. Fuck me I'm Famous! Grath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sansa Comfrey View Post
    I have a question for you, Grath, and I want you to answer it honestly without silly questions about alliance's manhoods or other baloney no one, probably not even you, actually believes. Why do you think these enemies won't field supers against your coalition?

    Ok, serious post:

    If I tell you its effectively giving you the answer on how to beat us. I know you are all like "SURE SURE ASSHOLE" and tgr will be like "PLEASE FIGHT OUR SUPERS" but if you look at the campaigns we've fought, there is a very visible constant in all of them, that literally NOBODY else seems to do. Its an effective strategy to counter a group who you know has a higher super count than you are.

    I don't have to guess about it either, I can read it on enemy forums near constantly in print in one form or another, so we kinda know it works well.

    I honestly believe the strategies we use against enemies are the single biggest thing that separates our ability to win from other people. We're smaller, we're financially more constrained than most, we're extremely vulnerable in certain areas, and yet 9/10 times people are terrified of us because we effectively employ "space boogey man" tactics.

    Thats probably as close to the answer as I'm going to give, I HOPE you can puzzle through it from there, as I just think the answer is basic and people just know.

  13. Animal Kingdom tgr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grath View Post
    tgr will be like "PLEASE FIGHT OUR SUPERS"
    Yup. My arguments are 2D and never change.

  14. Fuck me I'm Famous! Grath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tgr View Post
    Yup. My arguments are 2D and never change.
    Between this and the kermit avatar I am literally ready to have sex with you.

  15. Galactic Pot-Healer Mira Z's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grath View Post
    I'm sorry you don't get it, can't get it, or just have no clue what the fuck is going on in large scale warfare but I'm not going to spell out "How to stop PL's Supercap Fleet".

    I'm a fucking carpenter by trade, a nail banger in real life. How is it possible that I'm able to think laterally and most of you chucklefucks can't muster the ability to think past ship types and numbers?
    I am thinking laterally. My lateral solution is mock you enough for being delusional that you sperg out the solution to prove a point.

    Is it working yet?

  16. Fuck me I'm Famous! Grath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mira Z View Post
    I am thinking laterally. My lateral solution is mock you enough for being delusional that you sperg out the solution to prove a point.

    Is it working yet?
    No

  17. Galactic Pot-Healer Mira Z's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grath View Post
    No
    Really? I'm just asking because it feels like I'm having to clean flecks of your spittle of my monitor just reading your posts.

    On an entirely unrelated note, how many times did you have to say "I know how to kill big supercap fleets and I'm not telling you" before you started to believe it yourself?

  18. Fuck me I'm Famous! Grath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mira Z View Post
    how many times did you have to say "I know how to kill big supercap fleets and I'm not telling you"
    can you quote me saying that? and I mean exactly that?

  19. Animal Kingdom tgr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grath View Post
    can you quote me saying that? and I mean exactly that?
    Making actual quotes sounds like , but haven't you (and a few others, I don't really give enough fucks to read this abortion of a thread again) basically said exactly that the past few pages?

  20. Whoremonger Sansa Comfrey's Avatar
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    SURE SURE ASSHOLE

    Before you have sex with tgf can you tell me why suddenly no line breaks are working in my posts it is very annoying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grath View Post
    Ok, serious post: If I tell you its effectively giving you the answer on how to beat us. I know you are all like "SURE SURE ASSHOLE" and tgr will be like "PLEASE FIGHT OUR SUPERS" but if you look at the campaigns we've fought, there is a very visible constant in all of them, that literally NOBODY else seems to do. Its an effective strategy to counter a group who you know has a higher super count than you are. I don't have to guess about it either, I can read it on enemy forums near constantly in print in one form or another, so we kinda know it works well. I honestly believe the strategies we use against enemies are the single biggest thing that separates our ability to win from other people. We're smaller, we're financially more constrained than most, we're extremely vulnerable in certain areas, and yet 9/10 times people are terrified of us because we effectively employ "space boogey man" tactics. Thats probably as close to the answer as I'm going to give, I HOPE you can puzzle through it from there, as I just think the answer is basic and people just know.
    The counter is Sphere?

    Okay but seriously there seems to be a disconnect here and maybe its why you think I am mad about alliances I am not a part of being defeated. You seem to be referring to ways an alliance can win a war against a supercap-superior enemy. I haven't gotten into that myself because I don't think that is particularly a problem - it might be a short term one, and while it is happening its not good for the game, but I suspect that part of things will eventually work itself out (though I do believe it will cause stagnation), or if it doesn't then CCP has failed at 0.0. I've only ever been concerned with the balance of the supercap blob when it NEEDS to be fought - balance at the battle level not the war level. I suspect you will counter that an alliance 'looking forward, using their heads' would never need to be in that situation but IMO supercap proliferation makes that less and less likely.

    I don't think it has escaped anyone's notice that while your coalition is this big (in supercaps) the One Big Fight will work in your favor just like the One Big Fight worked in NC's favor in H-W (eventually) and therefore trying to subcap blob isn't going to work. I LIKE the goons and think they and TEST are good for the game (arguably SA and Reddit getting interested in EVE was the best thing that ever happened to 0.0, yes seriously) but I am not going to try to fight for game mechanics just to save their skins if there are ways for them to win the war without committing to a supercap showdown; that's up to their leadership to figure out, if it is possible under the context of who they have available to fly for them, and if they don't believe they can I am not arrogant enough to think I know better. However I don't think the alternatives available to alliances right now properly address the spiraling supercap issue and while it is going on it allows one side to have the choice of where it wants to automatically win when it wants to do it, assuming there's no jammer or it can be destroyed. Basically, in other words, supercaps need to start DYING in these fights, not just lose the occasional war.

  21. Fuck me I'm Famous! Grath's Avatar
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    I've been saying counter, not kill, killing is something different entirely but countering them is easy enough, and once a super cap fleets will is broken it becomes a non issue in fighting the entity that controls it, for example after Y- our supercap fleets will was broken, it took 3 months to get it back in working order where our titans weren't terrified Shamis (quite possibly the single biggest threat to supers in EVE) would log on and welp them all.

    If you've been playing EVE this long you end up knowing that killing something isnt the only way to beat it, dozens of failed alliances are all the proof I need on my side.


    EDIT: Holy wall of words batman, i have no idea what happened to your line breaks

  22. This is harsh. Evaluate me Sa'Shena's Avatar
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    I've always said my goal was to make Supercapitals more vulnerable so they die more often. We've seen how in a year the number of supercapitals can explode, and assuming the nerf coming down the pipe in the Winter expansion is severe enough we might see a curtailing of that trend. We've all seen how this 'a routed foe is a defeated one' has turned out, too. People don't fly their Supercapitals if they can't win regardless of alliance, and they just run to the nearest NPC/Lowsec Constellation and squat there for a few months until they show up again with the exact same ships they left with. I'd rather see the ships destroyed than horded in increasingly dense balls of rape that stifle the sandbox atmosphere of 0.0. I don't exactly expect small independent alliances to be able to hold their own against Nullsec giants, but I despise the idea that even claiming a single system is beyond madness because even if your alliance is able to rally large Subcapital fleets regularly for ~goodfites~ it won't even be able to dent a Supercapital force even a fraction of the size you're seeing these days.

  23. Animal Kingdom tgr's Avatar
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    Odd how much that sounds like my "the thing I hate the most about supers is how they turn a war into a 1-3 fight war + structure grind".

    vOv

  24. This is harsh. Evaluate me Tappits's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sansa Comfrey View Post
    You might get one or two more at a time, but no real significant difference. A better idea would simply be to not be able to logoffski anything bubbled.
    IF some one logs there Supers off to save them and your in a subcap fleet and you don't then bring your own supers in at that time then you do not deserve to be able to kill them.

  25. Animal Kingdom tgr's Avatar
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    Logging off is a faggoty, gayassed, stupid mechanic which should die in a fucking fire. hth.

  26. This is harsh. Evaluate me Tappits's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sansa Comfrey View Post
    Other shiptypes being Leviathans
    This just shows how little you know about combat in eve.... go away.

  27. Fuck me I'm Famous! Grath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sa'Shena View Post
    I've always said my goal was to make Supercapitals more vulnerable so they die more often.

    We've seen how in a year the number of supercapitals can explode, and assuming the nerf coming down the pipe in the Winter expansion is severe enough we might see a curtailing of that trend. We've all seen how this 'a routed foe is a defeated one' has turned out, too. People don't fly their Supercapitals if they can't win regardless of alliance, and they just run to the nearest NPC/Lowsec Constellation and squat there for a few months until they show up again with the exact same ships they left with.

    I'd rather see the ships destroyed than horded in increasingly dense balls of rape that stifle the sandbox atmosphere of 0.0. I don't exactly expect small independent alliances to be able to hold their own against Nullsec giants, but I despise the idea that even claiming a single system is beyond madness because even if your alliance is able to rally large Subcapital fleets regularly for ~goodfites~ it won't even be able to dent a Supercapital force even a fraction of the size you're seeing these days.
    Ok, first I fixed that up I think into something not broken

    Second I think if people manage to find out how to counter, not kill a supercap fleet, they can have the room to breathe so that their own can grow.

    There were similar discussions about dreads if I remember correctly (it was before my time, but im surrounded by bitter old women who were there when the game was turned on) and all that was really needed to fully balance dreads was that everybody got them.

    Then the fights with them really started in earnest.

    I think supers are going to end up the same way eventually. Eventually every alliance will have shit tons of them, its inevitable and completely unstoppable as its the last goal ship for any long term player. Its that last big thing you can really sink a ton of personal wealth into, so they are always going to proliferate no matter what you do.

    The key to survival is learning counters until your own super cap fleet has time to grow, and then using it effectively, and making sure the pilots know what the fuck they are doing, so it doesn't suffer from the disease that killed the NC.

  28. Honey, Don't You Want a Man Like Me Elektrea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sansa Comfrey View Post
    Doesn't that apply more to you than to me? Your own Propagandas just recently said supercaps were dropped because Maelstroms in that weight of fleet can alpha anything subcap PL and coalition brings and you don't want to take that kind of hit when you don't need to.
    Say what now? Do you wanna try that again. Your bitching because you can't kill supers with 700 dudes in the wrong shiptype and you want supers nerfed because of that. They do need nerfed, but not in anyway your talking about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sansa Comfrey View Post
    Indeed. Other shiptypes being Leviathans, Ragnaroks, Erebuses, and Avatars...
    No, no, no, and more no. PS it involves in a different ship than a maelstrom and not fighting them head on.

  29. Leader of the Scandinavy Securitas's Avatar
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    One one hand, supercaps are a bit too powerful.

    On the other, people seem to have this bizarre expectation that they should be able to just waltz up with several hundred of whatever and just win. If someone's invested 15b isk minimum x 100 ships, you shouldn't be able to just go in and wreck it with 500 guys in much, much cheaper ships. However, I'm not saying you should need 15B of maelstroms per super, not at all.

    I think that a large subcap fleet shouldn't be able to beat a large super fleet (so 1000v200 shouldn't be a win) but neither should the supercaps completely rape the subcaps like they do now. IMO a simple fix would just be to nerf titan tracking a bit and force supercarriers to choose between fighters and FBs.

    I do think though, that those complaining need to try some more things before whining. Honestly, Goons/Former NC never tried ANYTHING other than Maelstroms/Abaddons(and the latter was like 1-2 times) against the Super blob. Maelstroms are not a counter to everything, and if you try literally nothing else you will keep dying horribly. Your expectation that you can bring 800-1000 Maels to fight 200 Supers is like me trying to defeat a 200-Man Hellcat(PL hellcats at that ) blob with the same number(800) of Drakes, over and over, and complaining when I didn't win. In fact, what you guys want is even less realistic considering the price difference between Hellcats->Drakes and Supers-Maels.

    Try some new stuff and see if it works. In the meanwhile I think that supers could use a slight nerf as stated above.

    Lastly, I'm not a PL fanboy (not entirely anyway), but you can look to PL as an example. While everyone else said Drakes were impossible to beat in huge numbers and refused to engage, PL actually did a bit of theory and beat them in not 1 but 2 different fleet compositions; Tengus and Abaddonsw/Firewall. They took an old tactic, improved on it, and if you watch their videos you can tell that they knew what they were doing. They deserved to win. Simply picking something that counters on paper and flying it does not mean you should win every time, which I think given the prevalence of decent fittings and knowledge in EVE is something people take for granted. There's a sort of rock/paper/scissors mentality and if you pick the right comp, you should always trash some other comp. What I'm getting at here is that you can fly Abaddons poorly and lose to Drakes, or you can fly Drakes well and win against Abaddons, despite one in theory "countering" the other. The theory says that there is a counter to supers; it of course does require superior numbers, but now we just need someone to step forward and do it. Bringing the wrong rock/paper/scissors (Maelstroms) again and again, against well-flown supers, will inevitably lose.

    And why shouldn't they? You're flying battleships that have the sig radius of a small moon, low-DPS and high-alpha guns with meh EHP. Tell me, why why why does that deserve to win? That's not thinking about your opponent at all, it's just bringing the same thing and expecting different results and then giving up entirely. Instead of tinfoiling and accusing PL of trying to trick you into fighting (oh no, not a fight!!!) why don't you try something with small sig, high-dps, and decent EHP and fly it well. This means you might lose a fleet or 2 before you get the hang of it, but it can be done. Even if it can't, you'll at least know for sure that supers need a nerf.

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    PL is the big bad boogiemonster and even if they have 10 supers in fleet they obviously always have 200 on login screen

    waaaaaaaa CCP nerf them for me so i don't have to do anything even slightly risky ever ingame

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aurora148 View Post
    waaaaaaaa CCP nerf them
    They already said that Supercapitals are going to be looked at in the next expansion, its a matter of how ham-fisted CCP is with the fix. I think there are worse ideas in this thread than I've suggested, and since CCP never does the reasonable thing I shudder to imagine the future of Supercapitals.

    Also Grath gets mah Rep because I did in fact fail to format that paragraph into easier to read chunks.

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    So I was thinking about one of the changes CCP did for dominion, the SOV system. While all the talk of treaties etc is fine and dandy, the one thing I think they really shouldn't've done is rip it all out and replace it with a new system with just as much needless grind after the enemy's failcascaded and gone back to empire anyways.

    What I'm increasingly thinking they probably should've done is replace the POSes with some special SOV-claiming structure which could be setup in the max 5 pr day system of olde (or something similar), has sufficiently limited HP that a reasonable sized dread fleet (for example) could smugcycle it, needs to be manually timed and can be kited. However, to circumvent the horrible grind after the NC died, there could maybe be some sort of structure that controls all of them and, of there's absolutely nobody to defend them, can be ground down quickly. The details around how this structure would work I've no idea of, yet, but I'm thinking it should also be reinforceable, but unlike the claiming structures, this should be resettable/manipulable after the fact to signal "Hi, I'm here, please don't welp our sov quite yet".

    This could've retained the tug of war effect along with the effect where you grind down the opponent's logistics team, yet get rid of the two main problems with the old SOV system, dickstars and systems full of dickstars.

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    Trying to balance making timers work so that no time zone is disadvantaged without making it so it's too easy to defend while having ehp at high enough levels that some fifteen man roving gang can't bring down sov without making it so you need the massed supercaps of your entire coalition as well as the next one over just to grind it down without going insane from boredom has clearly been too much for CCP to handle, given the evidence of two tries at it.

    How about instead - no sov. Leave stations as conquerable, of course, so it's not just NPC space everywhere (they should be destroyable too, by their owners). Things that currently require sov, like jump bridges, anyone can put in any system - but they'll need to be able to defend it if they want to keep/use it. A couple others might need some small adjusting (jammers). Industry bonuses should be 0.0 wide of course, not tied to sov, to encourage more industry to be there anyways.

    End result: every alliance in the game gets exactly what it is capable of defending.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aurora148 View Post
    PL is the big bad boogiemonster and even if they have 10 supers in fleet they obviously always have 200 on login screen

    waaaaaaaa CCP nerf them for me so i don't have to do anything even slightly risky ever ingame
    Behind every PL ship, there are 10 supers on stanby, waiting to drop you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Securitas
    IMO a simple fix would just be to nerf titan tracking a bit and force supercarriers to choose between fighters and FBs.
    Just to clarify that - mothership using fighter deal 2x the DPS of a standard carrier. And the carriers' primary role is not fighting subcaps, or fighting in general. And fighters in general are only effective against battleships(ok, AND drakes, but fuck drakes). Supers usually have trouble clearing the 1-2 hics tackling them, what about actually fighting a proper subcap fleet. And carriers have their advantages, triage, generally higher scan res, longer jumprange. Motherships are focused on fighting and it's not like they are very effective against subs, or like someone is useng them at all against subs. I think it's about time CCP changes the amount of topes different caps require tho. Moving a motherhip or titan shouldn't cost as much as little as a standard carrier.(Welp, I'm probably getting purged for this idea).

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    Quote Originally Posted by tgr View Post
    Logging off is a faggoty, gayassed, stupid mechanic which should die in a fucking fire. hth.
    Logoff escapes: The only way to win is not to play

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sansa Comfrey View Post
    How about instead - no sov. Leave stations as conquerable, of course, so it's not just NPC space everywhere (they should be destroyable too, by their owners). Things that currently require sov, like jump bridges, anyone can put in any system - but they'll need to be able to defend it if they want to keep/use it. A couple others might need some small adjusting (jammers). Industry bonuses should be 0.0 wide of course, not tied to sov, to encourage more industry to be there anyways.

    End result: every alliance in the game gets exactly what it is capable of defending.
    Hey, let's remove from the game everything some idiot like you doesn't like. Remove tengus, they are not fair. Remove abaddons, they are not fun. Remove poses, they are no good for the fights. remove supercaps. Remove caps. hell, remove t2 ships, not fair for people to have those. Remove everything, we'll be flying in ibises ashooting civilian guns(cuz velator is obviously infair and should be removed too).

    can't decide if you really are that stupid or just a brilliant troll and I'm falling for it so easy.

  37. Animal Kingdom tgr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HUN73R View Post
    Hey, let's remove from the game everything some idiot like you doesn't like. Remove tengus, they are not fair. Remove abaddons, they are not fun. Remove poses, they are no good for the fights. remove supercaps. Remove caps. hell, remove t2 ships, not fair for people to have those. Remove everything, we'll be flying in ibises ashooting civilian guns(cuz velator is obviously infair and should be removed too).

    can't decide if you really are that stupid or just a brilliant troll and I'm falling for it so easy.
    I'm going to go for the "you just trolled yourself" behind door #3.

    The idea does have some merit to it if what you want is to reduce the blobs and give people multiple objectives to hit at any given time. Basically just make SOV descriptive rather than prescriptive, and AFK empires would just ... well, vanish. The possible problem could be some entity just running around and razing everything to the ground and moving on, but eh, at this point I'm inclined to say fuck it, bring on the fun.

    Come to think of it, things like SOV and JB limits are rather unsandboxy, it would've been fun to see how things were to turn out now if they'd just completely ripped out SOV as a prescriptive mechanic and make it so JBs, jammers, CSAAs, whateverthefuck, was legal regardless, as long as the system was 0.0. Would probably make 0.0 even less populated since there'd be even less incentive for carebears to go there, but still a bit of a fun train of thought. vOv

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    Quote Originally Posted by tgr View Post
    Would probably make 0.0 even less populated since there'd be even less incentive for carebears to go there, but still a bit of a fun train of thought. vOv
    there isn't even really a reason for carebears to live their now, the 2nd most lucrative isk-making activity in the game can be done in hisec, with a minimal sp investment. maybe hardcore industry guys need sov to build supercaps, but what happens when the nerfbat swings and supercapital production takes a nosedive in profitability?
    Mfume Apocal - Origin. - Black Legion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mfume View Post
    there isn't even really a reason for carebears to live their now, the 2nd most lucrative isk-making activity in the game can be done in hisec, with a minimal sp investment. maybe hardcore industry guys need sov to build supercaps, but what happens when the nerfbat swings and supercapital production takes a nosedive in profitability?
    Supers will still be wanted regardless of nerf. The term "Super" seems to increase certain peoples epeens.

    Supercap prices are not based on their usefulness.

  40. The Gripping Hand HUN73R's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tgr View Post
    I'm going to go for the "you just trolled yourself" behind door #3.

    The idea does have some merit to it if what you want is to reduce the blobs and give people multiple objectives to hit at any given time. Basically just make SOV descriptive rather than prescriptive, and AFK empires would just ... well, vanish. The possible problem could be some entity just running around and razing everything to the ground and moving on, but eh, at this point I'm inclined to say fuck it, bring on the fun.
    I kinda expected u tosay that, considering your alliance has never conquered much or put much effort into defending the space given to you by the NC. Or even the NC when they were dying. You probably don't understand sov holding very well, but some people have put a lot of effort resources and planning into conquering and upgrading those few systems so they have a place to live happy and carebear, to call "home". And I liket heir tears when I take that space. Waited 1 month so u can cynojam your system and make it a carebear heaven and evil people come and take it in 4 days. Fuck not having sov. What's the point of taking anything then, when carebears can just hide and rebuild their AFK empire in a day after ur gone? Current sov system is actually a lot better than the previous one, the ehp of the structures is what's broken.

    And where are those AFK empires you speak of? Is it IT,NC, Atlas, the atlaspetwagon(ohman, was that the example of AFK empire or what?). The AFK empire is gazillion nabs running incursions and missions in highsec. Changing sov is gonna hurt them a lot you know. Well, obviously you don't know, but...

    And in the end how is nothaving sov gonna change the current state of supercaps in any way? More hurfblurf.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HUN73R View Post
    Current sov system is actually a lot better than the previous one, the ehp of the structures is what's broken.
    AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaahhahahaahahahahahahahahahaha.

    No.

    Quote Originally Posted by HUN73R View Post
    And in the end how is nothaving sov gonna change the current state of supercaps in any way? More hurfblurf.
    I dunno, you brought it up, why don't you tell me, o wise one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tgr View Post
    AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaahhahahaahahahahahahahahahaha.

    No.
    Sigh, fine. We've been over this a bajillion times, but fine, I'll elucidate once more. The new SOV system is not better than the previous one, because

    1) There's no dynamicity to it, no tug of war. You either smash through 4 timers, or you're reset to 0. This means a huge fuckoff attackfleet, and a huge fuckoff defense fleet.
    2) There's no way to grind down the defenders' logistics to make them time shit wrong.
    3) There's no kiting, so you can't try to outwit the opponent by not reinforcing the POS as soon as you can.
    4) There's no anti-kiting mechanism to anticipate the opponent pulling a kiting move.
    5) There's no way to anti-anti-kite things
    6) There's no way to save on costs by spending the absolute minimum amount of SOV claiming structures when a system is not under attack.
    7) There's no way to harden a system against invasion (save plopping down ihubs, tcus and a station)
    8) There's no way to attempt to blindside the opponent by ninjaonlining sov claiming structures in a system
    9) The defending alliance doesn't even really have to DO anything except keep ISK in the wallet to keep SOV, as long as no-one musters up the energy to grind through the multi-million ehp structures. With the old system, keeping SOV was at least something which required some effort, and if you did nothing for 30 days in a row, welp, say buh bye to your SOV.

    So no, the new system is not better. It sucks in literally every way compared to the old system and it solves only 1 problem, the act of hauling fuel for all the towers. That's it.

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    7 day claim sov on POS will not be missed.

  44. The Gripping Hand HUN73R's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tgr View Post
    I dunno, you brought it up, why don't you tell me, o wise one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sansa Comfrey View Post

    How about instead - no sov. Leave stations as conquerable, of course, so it's not just NPC space everywhere (they should be destroyable too, by their owners). Things that currently require sov, like jump bridges, anyone can put in any system - but they'll need to be able to defend it if they want to keep/use it. A couple others might need some small adjusting (jammers). Industry bonuses should be 0.0 wide of course, not tied to sov, to encourage more industry to be there anyways.
    No I didn't. Are you high?

    And shooting 1 ihub and 1 station is 1000 times better than shooting 40-50 dickstars. 40-50 timers. Say it's not. Ultimately you'd like a sov system that defends itself, why not try to go with the idea to CCP and give it a try?
    Quote Originally Posted by tgr
    Sigh, fine. We've been over this a bajillion times, but fine, I'll elucidate once more. The new SOV system is not better than the previous one, because
    Why don't you stick to self-education for now? Seems you have pretty large gaps on how how the old system worked.

    Quote Originally Posted by tgr
    5) There's no way to anti-anti-kite things
    In your own words:
    AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaahhahahaahahahahahahahahahaha.

    No.

    And thank god for this. It's this way because noone liked the kiting game and CCP took notice. Obviously you didn't. Just a few quick tips:

    1) There was no dinamicity to reinforcing 50 towers to take 1 system.
    2) There is a way and it's more effective than before. You'd have to find it yourself tho, I'll play Grath's get-out-of-explaining-why-stupid-claim-is-wrong-free card here.
    3) Explained it already. It was CCP's intention , so no timezone has an advantage. Kiting was bonus stupid grind in a system that's based on stupid grind.
    4) See 3
    5) See 4
    6) You are saving on costs by not having 50 poses.
    7) How about making the system invulnerable for 6 months so your alliancemates can finish school too?
    8) Have you been playing forthe last year an a half? Ohboy there is and it's hilarious. Ask Grath about that HTA(I think) Ihub that went up like 10mins before ours.
    9) You don't do anothing for 5 days and you are done(ask Primary, HTA, Atlas, UK), it's a pretty big improvement from 30 days. Took us 30 days to clear Delve(not completely) with IT completely AFK and 100 dreadsshooting stations 23/7 for one month. You talk abouteducations,solet mepoint you to a nice article that might help you - http://www.kugutsumen.com/content.ph...-Call-to-Glory You can grind the same amount of sov in 30 game hours with 20 supercaps now. And you can do it with your alts,whilehaving fight for the same sov you are grinding on your mains. No more "every character shouldfly a dread".

    So the new system is better. It's better in every way possible and doesn'tsolve only one problem - the people that were wildly inlove with shooting thousands of posses, literally. Wait! Noone liked that.

  45. The Theory and Practice of Teleportation Wildside's Avatar
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    got the feeling tgr didnt even play this game during delve 1/delve 2...........
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    Quote Originally Posted by tgr View Post
    Sigh, fine. We've been over this a bajillion times, but fine, I'll elucidate once more.
    Looks like a case of "everyone says it's shit so I'll just bandwagon that idea without a clue!" Unless that was a trollpost, you really have no idea what you're talking about.


    Richter_Belmont: under Article 14, section 88, paragraph 420 of the B0Tl0rd Accord, it says "you're gay LOL pwned"

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    Quote Originally Posted by HUN73R View Post
    1) There was no dinamicity to reinforcing 50 towers to take 1 system.
    So there was no way to intercept their POS fuellers, no back and forth tug of war over a system, no gambling on timers, no stront fuckups? It was literally all about grinding through 50 towers twice, every time, every system. Right?

    Quote Originally Posted by HUN73R View Post
    3) Explained it already. It was CCP's intention , so no timezone has an advantage. Kiting was bonus stupid grind in a system that's based on stupid grind.
    Yeah, that's why IT kept timing their shit to DT during the fountain conflict, because there's no such thing as a TZ advantage in the new system.

    Quote Originally Posted by HUN73R View Post
    8) Have you been playing forthe last year an a half? Ohboy there is and it's hilarious. Ask Grath about that HTA(I think) Ihub that went up like 10mins before ours.
    In an unclaimed system, sure. I was talking about a system which was already claimed.

    Quote Originally Posted by HUN73R View Post
    And shooting 1 ihub and 1 station is 1000 times better than shooting 40-50 dickstars. 40-50 timers. Say it's not.
    Quote Originally Posted by HUN73R View Post
    Took us 30 days to clear Delve(not completely) with IT completely AFK and 100 dreadsshooting stations 23/7 for one month.
    I'm noticing that you're focusing wholly on steamrolling, and absolutely nothing on what it's like if there's an actual defense which doesn't suck. I find that interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by ihaveahelmet View Post
    Looks like a case of "everyone says it's shit so I'll just bandwagon that idea without a clue!" Unless that was a trollpost, you really have no idea what you're talking about.
    Last I looked, the old SOV system was based around POSes which were set to claim sovereignty, the entity with the majority of moons with the biggest POSes (in essence normally just larges) were the ones to hold sov in that system. You could hold SOV with 1 small POS if the system wasn't contested, or cover all the moons if you knew it was going to be contested to have a buffer. To contest a system you would erect up to 5 POSes pr day and try to RF/down as many of the other guy's as you could. If the system isn't defended, it can be taken down in 2 days (or 1 day if the opponent forgot to stront them).

    The new SOV system has timers for the IHUB and the station, all of which must be ground through regardless of whether or not someone's defending them, and all progress can be reset as late as at the last timer.

    So which details am I getting wrong here so far then?

  48. The Theory and Practice of Teleportation Wildside's Avatar
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    it was the number of poses last I checked:P(someone double check that for me tho) biggest reason jet why people would use small was to block moons and then RF themself (ofteen with its own pos guns) to make sure that they all was timed to come out in your favoured tz without the enemy having a singel chance to kite towers and whatnot. also running towers on stront in a perma RF state is much cheaper than running them on normal fuel.

    Shooting poses without anything but dreads when your looking to shoot 16-20 hardneners pr large pos was retarded. so you would end up with 300 man dread fleets(we usually split those up in 2-3, so we didnt have to waste time sitting in seige after tower was rf/killed) , spending days shooting towers even without resistance. The whole tactic to IT during delve 2 after the first weeks was to try to "burn out the enemy" by spamming towers nonstop.

    How can you claim that the old system is bether than the new? The new is like heaven compared to the old, even if its not perfect its atleast possible to use close range ammo/drones and whatnot on this new system, and your not forced to use dreads only. anything doing lots of damage works.

    Most conflicts in eve start with small scale skirmises(usually its here where you catch the stupid ratting supers/carriers, and both sides run around with gangs of decent size ducing it out)untill someone decides that they want/think they got a chance to take another alliances space(if they get their nose blooded up they usually leave for greener grounds),and usually after a week or two, the war escalate as 1 or both sides start batphoning, and after another 2-3 weeks most conflicts usually enters the "steamroll" process where the back/moral of the other alliance(s) is broken, and its more about killing sov structure than its really a fight. atleast thats my experince. Glamour battle over sov for gf`s on even terms rarly happen, besides a few "just for fun" sparring wars agains cva when I was in cruel intetions/tri(mk2) Ive jet to see any sov wars for Gfs only. Even if you made a sov system which encouraged such GF`s on even terms, it would still become a quick and 1 sided conflict as soon as the "feeling out eachother" periode is over. Its simply human nature/cowards jumping ship/not want to risk their personal asset for a lost cause.

    in "modern" eve (after super changes) supers act more as airsuport, and usually 1 side quickly eliminate/forces the other alliance "airsupport" to stay grounded, but much like in RL (I know this is bit pucky to use RL references) you still need boots on the ground to win a war, no war is won by airsuport(supers) only.
    You can make a living hell/demorilise the enemy/nucke the shit out of their infrastructe with it tho.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildside View Post
    How can you claim that the old system is bether than the new? The new is like heaven compared to the old, even if its not perfect its atleast possible to use close range ammo/drones and whatnot on this new system, and your not forced to use dreads only. anything doing lots of damage works.
    I can claim that because the old system had the tug of war going, it had the fuelling of of the structure (or just burning stront vOv) which was interdictable, the setting up of structures was interdictable, the timers were circumventable, the circumvention was circumventable etc etc etc. It was just alltogether a much more dynamic system than the current system.

    If the old system had been tweaked to use f.ex a special kind of POS which couldn't contain any modules f.ex, so the sov claiming structure had a reasonable amount of HP so you still had to control the battlefield to get more than 1 down at a time, yet sufficient that the defenders could try to ninjasave some of them, that could possibly help fix the grind problem. As for undefended systems, it'd still be around 2 engagements pr system, still better than the 5 days you have now, and it wouldn't have the "oh dear the defenders won the final fight, back to square one" penalty the current one has.

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    tell that to the poor logistic dudes that gotto setup and arm 20-50 poses for each system(thats if your simply steamrolling, if a fight going on you prob looking at twice that number) with 50 ew/guns/hardneners on each. good way of making your whole logistic crew burn out and quit the game. unless you accually have experince first hand running a logistic/large scale sovwarfare during the old system I dont rly think you grasp the amouth of work it takes.

    Start with setuping 20 poses this week. talk to me when you`ve done that.
    ------------------------------------
    "God created the world in seven days, in a smaller, but no less impressive gesture, I destroyed HTA in 5"
    Grath

    Mr Blue / Twisted girl /Stripperella - SNIGG - PL

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