Originally Posted by tgr
iirc those sort of structures are vulnerable to attacks by groups of plucky and determined rebels in small bombers
"Mudflation" is a problem that all MMOs have. How do you keep the "awe" in the game over time that gives new players something to shoot for, and old players a reason to keep playing? Older players now remember being in awe of players who had, holy crap, 30 million skill points, and were flying a T2 fitted mega in a BoB fleet. Or, holy crap, Cyvok and the only Titan in the game. When everything in the game is obtainable by the masses, it loses something. I don't know of a fix for that, and nobody else seems to either.
And a few years after that it's nothing but the "rare behemoths", and we'll need a ship that costs a trillion and 12 months to build.
Lol... NC is just full of the types of players and miners that mull over how KeWL they are compared to the rest of eve, while they are sitting in alliance photoshop with streak marks on their underwear. To believe or not believe, that is the question. Welp, the party is over and they have nobody to blame except one huge fucking chasm. A chasm they've been staring through but not into for their whole existence, the one between their idea of themselves and what they are. If I could have an RTS where I had NC size fleet but the exact same interface, it would be the same deal.I refuse to believe the NC died that easy
In other news, I'm not pink texted anymore.
Thanks to all my spacefriends here who participated in the campaign to free me.
I just have to say this:
The problem isn't that a supercap fleet is a counter to a much larger number of Battleships. The problem is that after a certain number, they're a counter to any number of anything you field against them (except more supercaps).
There! That's bad game design, any way you slice it.
In fact, I ~suspect~ CCP is merely incompetent in their game balancing, since the supercap situation is counter productive for new subscriptions, if/when the current player base reaches a point where the vast majority are flying supercaps to counter each other.
Supercaps could get a nerf and maintain their role, or (my personal favorite) be revamped into powerful unique roles that aren't necessarily so involved with 'target X -> F1'
edit:
Or make the owning alliance pay an exponentially-growing upkeep for every supercap.
Cuts the supercap numbers and promotes conflict for more territory, which in turn gets harder and harder to defend since the cost of more supercaps will grow much faster than the wealth new territory generates.
I want to be able to AOE doomsday a belt and instantly mine all the ore.
But seriously, if it's some stupid unique role that doesn't generate tears and killmails, I'm going to be prettyabout having scammed for a month straight to get enough ISK for my Avatar.
They just need to remove supers. Ever since they where added CCP has failed to actually balance them. From remote DDs, number of titans not scaling, fact that titans previously where only used for bridging and drive by DDs. SCs being utter shit to now being semi OP. It will always be a never ending battle that CCP won't get right. Me personally would rather go back to caps online then supercaps online any day.
In before the PL and DRF negrep
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Half a titan.I'm going to be pretty
It actually wasn't really directed at them. I actually have to give them alot of respect for being able to field what they can and have the balls to do so on a consistent basis. However as stated this has been a issue since they've been introduced.
But yea the negrepping has already begun
Was there this much rage and threadnaught when nc super cap blobbed pl?? what did they thing pl (any other enttiy) would do quit eve? no the only anwer is a large blob this has been the way of eve forever.
To be fair people have been bitching about the NC being blobbers for years supers or not, and it has caused EVE to be shit. So doing anything you can NOT to promote blobbing is good for Eve. Same with adding multi million EHP structures/multi timers causes massive blobs so do massive EHP ships.
dont think anyone in PL did threadnaughts on OP supercaps. You might a seen a thread or two on lag(). But whine about supers? Think your mixing us up with triumvirate.
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"God created the world in seven days, in a smaller, but no less impressive gesture, I destroyed HTA in 5"
Grath
Mr Blue / Twisted girl /Stripperella - SNIGG - PL
So the balance problem is that the ones who have supers prefer to fight on same side (DRF, PL, NCDOT, Evoke, Raiden.) against the ones, who don't have supers (goons, NC, avagon). As a result you get 30+ titans vs 3 titans, and it's impossible to counter them. Do you see fault in your logic? There are 440 titans in eve, and another 40 unsubbed. What DRF and friends have is a drop in an ocean. What they field - prolly 80% of all active titans.
Simple question: Why are supers needed?
Edit: For clarification, I mean both supercarriers and titans.
I too would like it to go back to just being carriers and dreads. Just kill off supercarriers in their entirety and only have titans as supercaps, but heh that won't happen now.
fuck carriers and dreads too lets just go back all the way to battleships to shoot TCUs and SBUs.
Technically all eve needs is rifters and punishers
-Sniggerdly-Pandemic Legion-
All Of Eve Demands A Statement From Vuk
Every Good leader has made a public statement after a crushing defeat and the pilots of eve deserve a response from you. Will you go out with a whimper? Quietly fade into eve history the way pilots see you today? Do it for your people.
Kugu awaits your response.
His response is resetting Fatal Ascension.
Delete supers and roll back nullsec mechanics to RMR then watch 0.0 florish
No, really, what do they do now that carriers/dreads couldn't do prior to dominion?
But but, your jump bridges...Delete supers and roll back nullsec mechanics to RMR then watch 0.0 florish
RMR owned. One or two supercaps in the game, no JBs, no retarded hp buff or rigs, and no nerfed wcs. Eve went downhill since RMR.
How much whine is needed to nerf supercaps? And does it require involvement of local CSM representatives?
Dear SupercapNerfWhiners (SNW), you made wrong decisions on strategic level of the game (e.g. -A- selling titans), now deal with it.
Prior to dominion Supers did nothing. After dominion they are the only thing making sov-grinding barely tolerable.
You seem to be pretty uneducated about eves history. NC was notoric for dropping supercaps on every roaming gang running around in tribute.(for years) or on any smaller opponents(alliances ect) Generally in all areas where the FC thought it would be low risk. On the other hand, when they feared their supers was at risk they was very quick to bann all super usage, (besides ratting). WN teached them a lesson up in north, after getting tired of NC always dropping supers everywhere.
All in all NC supers harvested a culture where ratting in supers without ever putting them at risk was the way you should do it.
Loosing a solo/small gang super trying to do your own stuff = loose a lot of respect/moral loss/be laughed at for been stupid. This again leads to supercap pilot that barly know how their ship works outside a sanctum, and makes them of lesser quality when it comes to real combat.
You can theorycraft it all you want, but some player skills is accually needed, like know how to work in lag, not stress out, how to remote ecm burst the enemy but not friendlys and think clear ect ect. Know what drones to use on what, know that if I swap drones now it will take 5min to get new ones out due to lag. Simple mistakes like pulling back drones/not knowing how to make em work in lag renders a supercap more or less useless for the periode its stuck in that state.(imagen 20% of your supercap fleet been unable do do damage to enemy counterhotdrop because they all swapped from fb to sentry drones to whore shoot on battleships).
So just because they cant take it any futher in tactics/their superpilots refusing to log in/join fleet, because they harvest the wrong type of fighter/carebear culture doesnt mean that they didnt have the intetion or resources to do what DRF/Raiden/PL did to them.
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"God created the world in seven days, in a smaller, but no less impressive gesture, I destroyed HTA in 5"
Grath
Mr Blue / Twisted girl /Stripperella - SNIGG - PL
soemoene should open separate thread for all the whiners and write here whats actually happening up in north for us that arent there.
So, if TCUs, IHUBs, SBU, stations etc had their HP reduced, what then?
They need an additional account to use.
Supers would be able to grind through them even faster unless they are nerfed so hard risking them isn't worth it, making people switch to Dreads because Dreads are cheap now.
And how quickly does a nominal SC/titan fleet chew through TCUs, IHUBs, SBUs and stations, now?
Seriously, I don't even own supers but I think they are quite fine as they are.
Of course some kind of rebalancing would be okey.
Like Supercarriers only able to field same ammount of fighters as regular carrier but with added damage bonus instead. Leaving total damage quite near to the current damage output, maybe some reduction.
Maybe some small HP nerf also but that would be all.
And titans could use some buff to their regular weapons but take away doomsdays ability to DD whatever ship it wants, for example make it only able to shoot ships with jumpdrives. And most important thing would be if sc logs out in bubble, it never dissapears until the sc stays in bubble. Wonder how many supercaps have been saved to thanks this mechanic that they dissapear after 15 minutes.
Well that's my ideas. Can't believe I just registered to say that. Seriously supercaps are quite ok as they are, it is possible to kill them with subcaps as demonstrated in some occasions.
But regarding topic, hopefully NC has some fight in them still.
I've seen a sizable fleet chew through a TCU in minutes, i don't remember the count though.
So that a smaller force has a chance against a massive, all-consuming blob. As has been demonstrated for the past 5 months. Supers destroy the purpose of blobs.
That is, unless you manage to supercap blob. It could be game breaking if the DRF+PL+DOTS remain blue to each other after NC is dead - in which case they can safely take over all of 0.0.
That, however, won't happen. There will be a lot of resetting after NC is down. If the supers are more spread out, like they were at the beginning of the war, they are relatively balanced.
Edit: And that's what I think CCP is waiting for. If DRF+pals don't reset each other, supers are sure to be nerfed. If they do, whats the point?
So what if they all had their hp reduced to 5% of what it currently is, together with POSes too?
Then we could scrap everything larger than a cruiser.
Your argument is stupid. I am all up for changing supers to bring them back in line a little, but saying they aren't needed is dumb as they provide something for people to aim at, the excitement of having large assets on the line in epic fights, sense of achievement in killing one or using them effectively etc etc
Saying an alliance without supers or which doesn't use them, should be able to defeat an alliance which does use them without massively blobbing them is another stupid idea that some people seem to have.
If one side brings well fit BS to the fight and you bring t1 cruisers instead, what do you expect to happen.
You telling me this?? I was at every major battle, 6NJ, Uemon, o2o and whatever, I have idea how lags impact battles.
Trying to just nerf the stats on supers isn't the answer, I agree with the guy earlier that its more how they're used that needs to change (instead of just being a 10x better carrier).
~ideas~
Make it so that supercarriers can't launch fighters/fighter bombers without going into a siege mode. Titans are pretty fine (yes DD is annoying, but not super gamebreaking). Increase stealth bomber effectiveness against caps/scaps, not to a massively OP counter level but significantly better than they already are. Perhaps some kind of tech 2 gravity bomb that does more damage depending on the mass of the ship (crappy against subcaps compared to existing bombs, but better against capitals)? This would keep supercarriers effective against structures, but they would still need a switched on subcap force to protect them even if there was 250 of them. It also increases the usefulness of stealth bombers, which currently aren't really used a lot in large engagements.
Would make for a more interesting tactical atmosphere, rather than the existing more-bigger-ships convention that currently exists.
Lag always been and it seems will be the biggest problem in eve tbh.
There are lots of startegies and tactics how to fight outnumbered even against supercap blob, but lag just make them all useless.
NC evac freighters are now jumping into our overpowered supercap gatecamps. http://kb.raidenalliance.net/?a=kill...l&kll_id=18139
Pointless; the UT video of Hitler/MM HC would be a bunker with an empty desk & chairs. Perhaps somebody with uber editing skills could also include a random tumble weed blowing through the door for added effect.
Not bitter, just jaded...
yes a bomber gang should be able to derp an entire sc fleet in a few passes, god damn son you sure you don't work for ccp
[FONT=Comic Sans MS]We shall now take this war to the forums
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So if we're lowering the HP on various SOV-related things, the same supers fleet could chew through them in seconds instead of minutes. Or they could, as you said, bring dreads and probably do the same thing in roughly the same timeframe as they'd be more likely to have more of them. Hell, I think we downed SBUs in somewhere between 5-15 minutes with a largeish (200-400 or so) subcap fleet.
So the main reason supercarriers and titans were buffed in dominion (If we're fair, titans were defanged slightly with the removal of AOE DD because having more than what, 3-4? on grid would decimate even a well-prepared subcaps fleet) were because 1) they were in the game, 2) nobody/very few fielded them because they were too expensive for what they were able to do, and 3) structure HP for SOV was massively increased as well?
Which essentially means that the only reason they were buffed the way they were, was because someone thought more dps was what the game needed, instead of trying to add more strategic depth, and they essentially ended up replacing dreads (at 1-2b isk apiece, and a 1-2 day build time if chained properly, double that otherwise) with supercarriers and titans (with 3 and 8 weeks build time respectively if chained properly, double that otherwise, with the requirement to own SOV and the possibility of coathangering it).
Is this a fair assessment?
I remember the main reasons Seleene pointed out back then was 1:Supercaps are there but useless so let's change this and 2:Eve needs more ISK-sinks.
It'll just be 2-3 years before there are 130 behemoths camping some random capital system.
\o/In other news, I'm not pink texted anymore.
Thanks to all my spacefriends here who participated in the campaign to free me.
I've noticed that there's a pretty big disconnect between the general consensus of kugu and what's actually happening. It seems enough people have said it in this thread that people are taking it as fact.
Dreads do 75% of the DPS supers put out and are actually counterable with ships that are NOT dreads. We would have no problem with grinding dominion sov with dreads.
If only supercapitals in EVE were so well balanced...
We already went over this :| That's a fusion of DBRB and Mittani. The NC doesn't have enough guile and wit to be Jabba the Hutt. No the NC is Salacious B. Crumb (the dumb little alien that laughs at all his jokes but really is useless and his life at the wim of Jabba and doesn't like him).Nope, this is what the NC has become. NC still outblobbed with 900 but couldnt move.
Maybe you just meant motherships cause I remeber titans being pretty damn useful :P
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He probably works for Darth Vader.
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