Titan Changes

[JimFromIT]

Is the loss of titans more sustainable than the loss of dreads?

I don't know masses about cap vs supercap production, what is the build time of 50+ dreads vs 1x titan? Even assuming the component builds stack up to the same number of slots required (they don't since you need more capital mods for the dreads), you need 50x slots to build the actual dreads whereas only 1 for a titan. Expand that to 2-3 engagements you are looking for 150 more slots.

I know I'm repeating a mantra - yes I am a dumb faggot, just explain if I'm wrong and why and I'll accept it.

[jeffraider]

I assume this is also the case if they cyno in too? I can see that this would make it harder to get reps on the titan - but if you consider the 20+ titans frequently seen at a time, this wouldn't dramatically reduce the super-fleets ability to plough through hostiles at a massive rate. Surely the answer to this is to cyno in triage/supercarriers after bringing in the titans since you can bring them to wherever there is a titan in trouble?

As stated earlier I'm pretty dumb so it's not a troll , just me being stupid and asking.

It sure is. So you've got 20+ ships of which one is guaranteed to bounce, on your side you have 500+ dudes whenever you want. Are they really unkillable?

[Ymir]

This is great.

Death to Supercaps

[lothos]

I don't know masses about cap vs supercap production, what is the build time of 50+ dreads vs 1x titan? Even assuming the component builds stack up to the same number of slots required (they don't since you need more capital mods for the dreads), you need 50x slots to build the actual dreads whereas only 1 for a titan. Expand that to 2-3 engagements you are looking for 150 more slots.

I know I'm repeating a mantra - yes I am a dumb faggot, just explain if I'm wrong and why and I'll accept it.

Compare build time, compare were one can be build and the risks it has, and you will get to a conclusion i'am sure.

Lol at vile saying to raiden/nc/pl to adapt, goon broos could dropped 250 dreads on top off that fags in titans

[Pielemieni]

This is great.

Death to Supercaps

Only that it is not. You can't kill supercaps when they're not fielded, can you?

[jeffraider]

This is great.

Death to Supercaps

YEAH NOT LIKE YOUR GAYSHIT ALLIANCE HAS THE BALLS TO USE EM ANYWAYS

LMAO

[Tsubutai]

I don't know masses about cap vs supercap production, what is the build time of 50+ dreads vs 1x titan? Even assuming the component builds stack up to the same number of slots required (they don't since you need more capital mods for the dreads), you need 50x slots to build the actual dreads whereas only 1 for a titan. Expand that to 2-3 engagements you are looking for 150 more slots.

I know I'm repeating a mantra - yes I am a dumb faggot, just explain if I'm wrong and why and I'll accept it.

To build titans, you need a CSAA (one build slot, only anchorable on a POS in sov space). To build dreads, you need a conveniently located lowsec system that has at least one factory station (50 build slots), and your production facilities are completely immune to hostile action. While you need more production characters to replenish a dread fleet than you do to build a single titan, you can use low-SP alts - iirc they need about 4m total. Building a dread in a station takes a bit under two weeks; Eve-MEEP tells me that building a titan takes 6 weeks or so.

[JimFromIT]

To build titans, you need a CSAA (one build slot, only anchorable on a POS in sov space). To build dreads, you need a conveniently located lowsec system that has at least one factory station (50 build slots), and your production facilities are completely immune to hostile action. While you need more production characters to replenish a dread fleet than you do to build a single titan, you can use low-SP alts - iirc they need about 4m total. Building a dread in a station takes a bit under two weeks; Eve-MEEP tells me that building a titan takes 6 weeks or so.

Ok - ignoring the number of capital mods that also need to be built for a 50x dread fleet, it's still another 15 or so chars building full tilt in a third of the time it take to build the titan. Add in the extra 47 guns ( a day a piece), 50x Seige Mods (a day a piece) not to mention repair mods ect you are starting to exceed the build time for a titan. I take your point about the CSAA's but if it was that hard we would not see the massive proliferation of supers that we already have so I can't see that being a bottle-neck.

[Opti]

um alot of people here are missing the fact that if somehow dreads became all lols and shit that it would be the most amazing thing ever

it is a shame that you cant have dread fights anymore without getting half your shit DDed in how ever many seconds titans got nerfed too LOLS or fighter bombed in face

dreads having to actually commit was most baller thing ever

[Matos]

Ok - ignoring the number of capital mods that also need to be built for a 50x dread fleet, it's still another 15 or so chars building full tilt in a third of the time it take to build the titan. Add in the extra 47 guns ( a day a piece), 50x Seige Mods (a day a piece) not to mention repair mods ect you are starting to exceed the build time for a titan. I take your point about the CSAA's but if it was that hard we would not see the massive proliferation of supers that we already have so I can't see that being a bottle-neck.

Given the difference in Profit margin between Dreads and Supers/Titans I would say its still a bottleneck

[Internet Spaceships]

dreads having to actually commit was most baller thing ever

I wish I had been around for that, by the time I started in 0.0 things were different :\

[fugazii]

A couple of alliances relied heavily on one hull and they no longer have that crutch. Titans have been broken for some time, some alliances made a SHITLOAD of money off tech being able to hoard these assets because they abused this broken hull type so heavily. They can't do this anymore, I suppose they'll have to adapt.

A couple of alliances relied heavily on numbers and they no longer have that crutch. Numbers have been broken for some time, some alliances made a SHITLOAD of money off tech being able to hoard these assets because they abused this broken hull type so heavily. They can't do this anymore, I suppose they'll have to adapt.

In time.

[Propagandas]

A couple of alliances relied heavily on numbers and they no longer have that crutch. Numbers have been broken for some time, some alliances made a SHITLOAD of money off tech being able to hoard these assets because they abused this broken hull type so heavily. They can't do this anymore, I suppose they'll have to adapt.

In time.

Are you talking about MM, RZR, WI and MH?

[fugazii]

Though huge as fuck dread fleets are gonna be cool

[Opti]

Are you talking about MM, RZR, WI and MH?

oh no you just dint

[Mfume]

Retard Online,

all you need is numbers is back in april

Edit, But hey looking forward to a ton of dread kills

you are an idiot.

[fugazii]

Are you talking about MM, RZR, WI and MH?

I'm saying the same argument Viles using for nerfing scaps will/can be used in the future to nerf numbers

These changes don't fix a problem but rather just switch favor to a side by nerfing the other.

[Propagandas]

oh no you just dint

Well they did hold the tech for years, cant remember when #1 swapped from dypsro to tech but it was ages ago now.
The tech bros havent even had them for a year yet.

And seing how WI, MH, RAZOR and MM are now all in your team with a litle bit in AAA I guess he is talking of his own coalition?

[Ymir]

YEAH NOT LIKE YOUR GAYSHIT ALLIANCE HAS THE BALLS TO USE EM ANYWAYS

LMAO

It´s enormously satisfying to see your tears Jeff, cry more.

On a serious note, CCP should turn their attention towards what is and has been the problem with this game as long as anyone can remember... removing the blob and the tendency to form ever bigger powerblocks.

[Grath]

On a serious note, CCP should turn their attention towards what is and has been the problem with this game as long as anyone can remember... removing the blob and the tendency to form ever bigger powerblocks.

Thats actually the exact opposite of what they're doing with this patch but OK, CCP have firmly stated that the only thing that should ever win in EVE is more numbers, anything that ever gives the smaller force in EVE an advantage has systematically and categorically been nerfed into the ground.

A couple of alliances relied heavily on one hull and they no longer have that crutch. Titans have been broken for some time, some alliances made a SHITLOAD of money off tech being able to hoard these assets because they abused this broken hull type so heavily. They can't do this anymore, I suppose they'll have to adapt.

This is Vile rat making a hypocritical nigger post, his group couldn't adapt to Titans, never have been able to, so for years they've just been crying about them, the crying getting louder and louder until finally, one of the Goons got a job at CCP, and ever since then patches just keep going their way.

Wasn't cool when BoB did that though.


The best part, is in the end, getting their tracking cut in half basically means that we can't hit frigs anymore, but BC's and BS are still fully trackable, even if they take an hour to lock, so that all this work that you've put in to making the game only work from your perspective didn't actually do shit but slow down the time it takes for you to be murdered by a titan because you won't adapt to the way of fighting it takes to kill them.

[Mfume]

i dunno if this is "goons controlling my game!". yttirbbium (sp) mentioned that the first supercap nerf was just an initial balancing pass and how titan tracking was going to be looked at over the next few months for a second balancing pass. probably wasn't the smartest move in the world to continue blapping subcap fleets, including CCP's, with that in the air.

just sayin

[Grath]

i dunno if this is "goons controlling my game!". yttirbbium (sp) mentioned that the first supercap nerf was just an initial balancing pass and how titan tracking was going to be looked at over the next few months for a second balancing pass. probably wasn't the smartest move in the world to continue blapping subcap fleets, including CCP's, with that in the air.

Whatever the balance pass was meant to be, taking 15 seconds to lock your own hull class is literally dumb.


They're going to lose a lot of accounts over it from rage quitters that don't really understand that even with this change titans can still track maels with little to no problem.




I'm not going to address the goons controlling our game, I'll happily wear my tinfoil hat in private about Soundwave, and his gross resemblance to T20 in this situation. Goons want something, magically it comes around eventually in a patch. I mean, having the lead guy be an ex goon doesn't look even remotely fishy when both patches over the past year have pretty much been "Gooncentric".

[fugazii]

Well they did hold the tech for years, cant remember when #1 swapped from dypsro to tech but it was ages ago now.
The tech bros havent even had them for a year yet.

And seing how WI, MH, RAZOR and MM are now all in your team with a litle bit in AAA I guess he is talking of his own coalition?

My party lines are not dictated by his majesty in VFK. I have always been vocal about my opinions.

[Opti]

titans are broken

ofcrouse if it makes you feel better you can spin it into something only goons could care about but youd be mistaken

[Stronke]

his group couldn't adapt to Titans, never have been able to

Grath, friend, tell me, a ultra newb, how to adapt to titans other then making sure you have more titans/motherships then the other side deploys. (ie making it a number game again)

I understand why a lot of people are displeased by this change, you invested a lot of time and in game assets to acquire this ship. But no matter how bitter you are I know deep down inside you know the terribleness that is the titan and that the game would of been much better off if they would of never been released.

CCP gave them a price tag of 100bill thinking that that would be a lot of isk and that alliances would only be able to gather a limited amount of them. However, as is clearly proven by the drastic increased number of titans reported/used that it is not really that hard to get one and that they are actually rather cheap for the power they provide.

I have said this multiple times over the years but in my opinion titans should be a movable station with a fuckaton of hp and about three times the fire power of a dread (only against other caps of course). But /shrug, what does this newb know.

I actually think this may be a good change for PL. Over last several months PL absorbed more and more supercapital pilots to wield the biggest supercap fleet. Before this PL was already out deploying about every other zero zero alliance Titan wise and would this trend continue the only supercapital pilots in the end would be in PL (with the exeption of Russian/German players who will stick with their current alliance because of the langues/culture). Simply because all the other alliances refuse to deploy theirs for the fear of being faceraped by PL, so said alliance members know the only way to use a titan is to join PL.

Ever since you guys went ballsdeep in the tech and started to use supercapitals 24/7, I rarely if at all see any innovating things from you lot.

Ever since Pandemic Legion was created I had feelings towards you guys. You were good at fighting outnumbered, could easily adept and were able to destroy fleets with ship types and set ups no one thought of before. For many years you guys were trend setters when it came to fleet compositions but the imbalances of titans destroyed this.

I hope that with this upcoming change you lot will adept again and remind me why I fell in love with you guys so many years ago and why PL will always be the best organisation peeveepee wise.




/o\

[Doddy]

Its getting to the point they should remove supers and give all the super pilots their isk/sp back, cos i do not see any way they are ever going to balance them. Life would be so much better if sov wars were fought with dreads instead of tracking titans vs alblative bs blobs.

[Grath]

Grath, friend, tell me, a ultra newb, how to adapt to titans other then making sure you have more titans/motherships then the other side deploys.

This is dumb and has been gone over 1000 times before, to the point that goons actually tried the counter and it worked.


Everything else you've said is dumb, as every walking fleet doctrine thats in use this year outside of Maelstroms and Nulli's gay ass Navy Geddon fleet is largely some adaptation of what we put on the ground.

Last, people don't join us because we have supercaps and they don't want to get faceraped, people join us because we use our supercaps and nobody else does.

[fugazii]

Grath, friend, tell me, a ultra newb, how to adapt to titans other then making sure you have more titans/motherships then the other side deploys. (ie making it a number game again)

I understand why a lot of people are displeased by this change, you invested a lot of time and in game assets to acquire this ship. But no matter how bitter you are I know deep down inside you know the terribleness that is the titan and that the game would of been much better off if they would of never been released.

CCP gave them a price tag of 100bill thinking that that would be a lot of isk and that alliances would only be able to gather a limited amount of them. However, as is clearly proven by the drastic increased number of titans reported/used that it is not really that hard to get one and that they are actually rather cheap for the power they provide.

I have said this multiple times over the years but in my opinion titans should be a movable station with a fuckaton of hp and about three times the fire power of a dread (only against other caps of course). But /shrug, what does this newb know.

I actually think this may be a good change for PL. Over last several months PL absorbed more and more supercapital pilots to wield the biggest supercap fleet. Before this PL was already out deploying about every other zero zero alliance Titan wise and would this trend continue the only supercapital pilots in the end would be in PL (with the exeption of Russian/German players who will stick with their current alliance because of the langues/culture). Simply because all the other alliances refuse to deploy theirs for the fear of being faceraped by PL, so said alliance members know the only way to use a titan is to join PL.

Ever since you guys went ballsdeep in the tech and started to use supercapitals 24/7, I rarely if at all see any innovating things from you lot.

Every since Pandamic Legion was created I had feelings towards you guys. You were good at fighting outnumbered, could easily adept and were able to destroy fleets with ship types and set ups no one thought of before. For many years you guys were trend setters when it comes to fleet compositions but the imbalances of titans destroyed this.

I hope that with this upcoming change you lot will adept again and remind me why I felt in love with you guys so many years ago and why PL will always be the best organisation peeveepee wise.




/o\

>Invest tons of money to combat huge numbers
>Investment gets nerfed once investment works as intended
>Is told to adapt to combat huge number
>

[jimmychrist]

>Invest tons of money to combat huge numbers
>Investment gets nerfed once investment works as intended
>Is told to adapt to combat huge number
>

This is a fair point.

[Stronke]

This is dumb and has been gone over 1000 times before, to the point that goons actually tried the counter and it worked.

Grath remember I only play EvE online the forum game. What was it then, because honestly my doped out mind can't remember

Everything else you've said is dumb, as every walking fleet doctrine thats in use this year outside of Maelstroms and Nulli's gay ass Navy Geddon fleet is largely some adaptation of what we put on the ground.

I was not saying how other people were innovating, but you, PL, so yeah I agree with you. This year has been quite dull.

Last, people don't join us because we have supercaps and they don't want to get faceraped, people join us because we use our supercaps and nobody else does.

I actually think this may be a good change for PL. Over last several months PL absorbed more and more supercapital pilots to wield the biggest supercap fleet. Before this PL was already out deploying about every other zero zero alliance Titan wise and would this trend continue the only supercapital pilots in the end would be in PL (with the exeption of Russian/German players who will stick with their current alliance because of the langues/culture). Simply because all the other alliances refuse to deploy theirs for the fear of being faceraped by PL, so said alliance members know the only way to use a titan is to join PL.

[Stronke]

My engrish is bad Grath I know, but as long as you reply to me like you do now, ill continue to do my best explaining what I ment.

[fugazii]

Simply because all the other alliances refuse to deploy theirs for the fear of being faceraped by PL, so said alliance members know the only way to use a titan is to join PL.

This however, is not a flaw in design, but rather a shortcoming in skill and resource allocation. Redesigning the game to accompany players who refuse to play a certain way is not fundamentally within the boundaries of a sandbox. Which is what EVE is.

[Grath]

This is a fair point.

This happens over and over though, this is like the 4th or 5th nerf to people who fight larger groups like Goons on the regular.


CCP tells us to innovate, we do, and then the stomp the shit out of it.



Maybe we'll just mass up all the titans and go helicopter dick Deklien so that when the nerf comes everybody starts in relatively the same position, you know, short of one side having 50k members more than anybody else.

[Tobruk]

2007 PL perfects LRHAC doctrine by using max speed to avoid tracking, enabling small groups to engage outnumbered

CCP Nerfs Speed and Buffs tracking

2009 PL acquires large numbers of titans with prom money and uses the AOE doomsday to dominate much larger numbers of pilots

CCP nerfs Prom and AOE doomsday

2012 PL uses super carriers and titans in large quantities to fight outnumbered

CCP Nerfs Super carriers, CCP Nerfs titans


Does anyone think we won't find the next thing that makes us able to fight outnumbered? Does anyone doubt CCP will simply follow us around nerfing whatever the people we are pubstomping cry about?

We got the message CCP more numbers = win , but we are smarter than you and we're smarter than GSF.

[Grath]

What was it then.

It was dreads, Goons honestly never would have had a problem with titans if they hadn't completely ignored an entire class of ship. To a Goon, the game ends at battleships, and this was their own self imposed technological limit that was causing the problem. The very first time they broke out the dreads, a titan died, and from their own admission, had they done the drop differently, they would have killed more than just the one titan.


But hey, lets focus on what Goons and CCP want: numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers

[fugazii]

2007 PL perfects LRHAC doctrine by using max speed to avoid tracking, enabling small groups to engage outnumbered

CCP Nerfs Speed and Buffs tracking

2009 PL acquires large numbers of titans with prom money and uses the AOE doomsday to dominate much larger numbers of pilots

CCP nerfs Prom and AOE doomsday

2012 PL uses super carriers and titans in large quantities to fight outnumbered

CCP Nerfs Super carriers, CCP Nerfs titans


Does anyone think we won't find the next thing that makes us able to fight outnumbered? Does anyone doubt CCP will simply follow us around nerfing whatever the people we are pubstomping cry about?

We got the message CCP more numbers = win , but we are smarter than you and we're smarter than GSF.

It goes back longer than that though. This is an issue dating from the BoB vrs Goon days. You just happen to be on the other side now.

[Rer]

Is Elise around? Given he was on the CSM I'm rather curious of his thoughts on this patch.

[HeliconOne]

one of the Goons got a job at CCP, and ever since then patches just keep going their way.

Isn't Greyscale (the dev who made this latest announcement) ex-BoB?

[HeliconOne]

If dreadnoughts were tweaked to be able to blap subcaps in the way that titans currently do, we'd have a nice little stone-paper-scissors mechanic in place: Dreads kill subcaps > subcaps kill Titans > Titans kill Dreads. The only issue I see with this change is that there's still not enough incentive to use the dreads and carriers which Titans will now be primarily used against.

Make siege mode give a tracking bonus and reduce the locktime penalty and we'd be living in interesting times.

[Stronke]

I'm sorry my Pandemic Legion friends, I guess that the creation of titans left such a bitterness inside of me that I am unable to find any sympathy for you cause. And for this I apologise.

This however, is not a flaw in design, but rather a shortcoming in skill and resource allocation. Redesigning the game to accompany players who refuse to play a certain way is not fundamentally within the boundaries of a sandbox. Which is what EVE is.

I guess I am just bitter >:/

I'll shall leave this thread and leave the debate up to the people actually playing EvE Online.

But I never liked titans and I never will, and hope they get deleted.

[tgr]

It was dreads, Goons honestly never would have had a problem with titans if they hadn't completely ignored an entire class of ship. To a Goon, the game ends at battleships, and this was their own self imposed technological limit that was causing the problem. The very first time they broke out the dreads, a titan died, and from their own admission, had they done the drop differently, they would have killed more than just the one titan.


But hey, lets focus on what Goons and CCP want: numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers

Titans aren't a strict numbers counter. You know this.

[bobbechk]

I do actually agree that titans should not be a anti subcap ship, it is and should be a anti capital ship primarily!

The problem however is that in eve today and the past years have not had regular capitals taking part in any meaningful combat at a regular basis, because they suck at everything except repping and shooting structures

What we really need is for dreads to become some kind of meaningful part of the battlefield (carriers are ~ok~ i guess). If dreads were useful for say killing BS then the titans could be used to kill the dreads, but since the dreads are nowhere to be seen titans cant really fill their role...

What we really need is a dread rebalancing or maby even some kind of new t2 capitals that could actually fill the role of anti battleship (that is now empty)


p.s. Naglfar should be the best dread

[Opti]

i just listened to grath on this shit on kugu shit and at the mere mention of titan tracking nerf he spergs out

i can only imagine him now

[Checkbox Poll]

numbers == more subs

[Grath]

numbers == more subs

Yes, because making titans take 15 seconds to lock other titans will somehow magically result in more subs.



Hint: Nothing will ever make people want to play eve more, its a bad game that has addictive qualities that appeal to a very small sub set of people, it will always be that way, and adding or taking anything away wont change that. The time based progression kills peoples interest in the game more than anything else.

[tgr]

Oh come on, grath. You've known this day was coming for years.

[pinoyzzz]

I'm not going to address the goons controlling our game, I'll happily wear my tinfoil hat in private about Soundwave, and his gross resemblance to T20 in this situation. Goons want something, magically it comes around eventually in a patch. I mean, having the lead guy be an ex goon doesn't look even remotely fishy when both patches over the past year have pretty much been "Gooncentric".

If you think this is somehow a ~goon conspiracy~ or anything like T20 was, you're retarded. hth

[Grath]

Oh come on, grath. You've known this day was coming for years.

No, I really haven't, I actually expected CCP to go "Hey, babies, see all those ships over there you aren't using? They're called caps, and they are the counter to what you're bitching about, the game doesn't end at battleships"


Only, I guess I was wrong, you can indeed ignore a whole class of ship and by pretending they don't exist get the game developer to change the game in your favor.




I'm still curious as to how this is supposed to help new player retention.

[tgr]

You think new players join up and actually think "oh boy oh boy I'm going to bot me a titan and blap bitches it'll own"?

[Grath]

You think new players join up and actually think "oh boy oh boy I'm going to bot me a titan and blap bitches it'll own"?

I'm pretty sure they don't go "OH MAN I CAN'T WAIT TO BE A FACE IN THE CROWD' when they join.


Or being told that training past battleships is largely a waste of time now, learn to fly a Maelstrom and its pretty much the end of the game.