Among the ruins - speculations regarding the future of the North and its population

[KWyz]

So I'm gonna start this by dropping a nice little memento before asking the questions: What do you think will happen when and if the Northern Coalition dies in any number of ways (spectacular failcascades included)?
What is your opinion on the possible division of space in the North after the war, and what do you think the mass of players that constitutes the Coalition now will do after such an event?

Personally, I believe that after conquering the North up to Branch and Deklein, the DRF forces will pick the best areas for themselves, and keep the Drone regions strictly as renter/supercap production areas. I believe that alliances such as Raiden and Evoke will also be receiving their fair slice of the pie. Some people hope that such a division of space will not end with the enormous NAPfest that so many dreaded about the NC, and that people will instead settle for a mutually fun NIP, ending in plenty of good fights and fun.

In the end, time will tell, but since I'm a relatively new player, older capsuleers will be able to shed quite an interesting light upon possible future developments with the help of their experience with the politics of the game.

Note: I'm sure a lot of posters here on Kugu believe the NC to be completely finished, done, kaput, dead and/or rotting or any of the above combos.However, the nature of the SD portion of the forums forces me to put every potential outcome on the table, so please, no making fun of me on this side of the table, I'm aware just how things are going. If it's not done yet, don't take it out of the oven. Be patient, good things come to those who wait. Meanwhile, let's peek in the oven and speculate on what will come of it. Mmm, cookies.

[spoiler=My personal stake in this]I've been a carebear in the NC ever since I joined, and by the time I actually trained for truly useful ships and fits RL had kicked in and forced me to sit on the side while other people had fun. Whether I can come back to playing before this war is over or be left standing among the smoldering ruins, either way this ends, after the grand finale I plan on moving to NPC space (hopefully join Securitas if he'll have a scrub like me) and finally sharing in some of the fun I never really could/wanted to enjoy as a beginner.

While the disappearance of a large swath of space that favored *mildly* safe carebearing will certainly annoy and/or force some players to unsub, I believe the bulk of carebears such as me will be perfectly capable of relocating themselves in some other cozy nullsec, especially since, unlike me, a lot of my buddies are actively involved (with at least a couple of alts) in mining, shipwright and research, activities which I think will gain them easy entrance into a lot of sovholding alliances.
[/spoiler]

[Pripyat]

The first Incarnation of the NC was under D2 and died horribly. The surviving Pets reformed and build a new Powerblock in the north. If and when the current NC dies, the survivors will again reform, probably with Goons at it's top and stretching over Fountain, Cloud Ring, Pure Blind, Fade and Deklein.

If and when the DRF manages to force it's way through Tribute, and so far nothing really happened, they will probably want to keep control over as much of the east as possible while grabbing Tenal, Branch, Venal and Geminate and probably also a sizable chunk of Tribute.

Keeping NCDOT, Ev0ke, Raiden, 404, HRR, andy every other alliance that can pull it's weight on it's borders would probably be good idea. On the other hand convincing them to keep the DRF blue would be kinda hard.

[HandofSatan [banned]]

Various types of people play EVE, but there's a basic dividing line between builders and destroyers. People, for the most part, in the Northern Coalition are more of the builder variety. It's fine to speculate that they'll just run to Goons and friends, but the maturity level amongst Goons/TEST isn't really welcoming to a lot of the NC. I actually think a large number will migrate to CVA held areas of Providence, just as so many went to the NC when Providence collapsed to -A-'s invasion. There aren't many other "builder" entities that hold sov, entities that would accept people who aren't balls-out, hardcore PvP'ers are few and far between.

[Kireiina]

NC doesn't have the energy or enthusiasm to survive in any meaningful form. Nor do I believe they're willing to join up with a group they consider beneath them (goons,DC) or holding shit space (pretty much everyone given they're used to a tech torrent). I fully expect them to break up, the rank and file either become renters, mission runners or unsub. The hardcore PvP (heh) and supers will probably end up taking a break then trying to join someone blue to the DRF (worked for Raiden).

The most interesting question will be whether the DRF actually has a point at which they want to stop. If the NC fail-cascades there is little stopping them continuing the war by pacifying Goons/-A- before stopping to carve up the spoils. I also expect PL to go back to holding land in Delve.

[Grath]

I also expect PL to go back to holding land in Delve.

Not unless somebody paid us.

Delve was a land grab, so that we could later sell it off, there's no rule that says a merc group has to be on contract to look for ways to make money, and what better way than to sell off chunks of some of the most famous space in EVE (We sold a good bit actually).

[Grarr Dexx]

What's going to become of the northern moons is my big question. The amount of space the moons stretch over seem far too much for PL to landlord, as they did with Fountain. A deal with the russians?

[Sansa Comfrey]

It's really hard to speculate without having some hint of how far DRF wants to go. They can break the NC simply by taking Tribute as Razor will not show remotely the same level of interest in cooperating with the western NC as MM did, leaving NC. and Evoke to rain hell on Pure Blind and Fade like they have so many times in the past. Or they could sweep every region up to the border of Deklein and Cloud Ring without anyone stopping them.

[Dengen Krastinov]

It's too early to speculate land/resource divisions meight.

[Madrak]

Well, esitmates vary, but if some 20k pilots get displaced from the North it could destabilize other areas with basically "barbarian incursions" - and some alliances may see some of their numbers swell.

Provi theory I think is wrong - the NC culture is deeply NBSI (and among some, very despising of NRDS) and the history of wealth, the better true sec, etc.. will not mix in Provi (they're spoiled). As a recently displaced NC member myself, I recall going on far trips to Provi to roam and laugh at its residents; I couldn't ever possibly think of becoming one.

The Goons had the "karttoon" incident happen and basically were up a creek without a paddle. If the rumors in Kug uncensored are true, they are supposedly going to reset NC in repayment. How nice and Goony of them. If anyone will cozy up to goons, its got to be MM because honestly I don't think the rest of the NC feels much for Goons.

So if this leaves a horde of provi-disdaining, Goon hating, DRF hating corps then the lucky winner is.... -A-?

I'm betting a lot would be willing to go to -A-, assuming -A- will take them.

Of course I'm just speculating, but that's what Kug is for

p.s. Provi people don't take it personal. I'm not saying your way of playing Eve is better or worse; it just clashes with NC way of Eve.

[Kireiina]

Not unless somebody paid us.

Delve was a land grab, so that we could later sell it off, there's no rule that says a merc group has to be on contract to look for ways to make money, and what better way than to sell off chunks of some of the most famous space in EVE (We sold a good bit actually).

I based it on several PL members threatening that as soon as the northern contract was done they'd be back to punish uppity southerners (Atlas. I assume) which pretty much has to mean blowing up Sov shit to force fights.

I'm not entirely sure who remains as potential PL hirers in a post NC future. Pretty much everyone left either can't afford it or doesn't need it barring the DRF coalition partners turning on the DRF, which seems unlikely.

The NC is bleeding enough people it should be possible to get some idea where they are heading now. I suspect a lot of their number on paper are largely inactive and it will require too much for them to find another home. I mean they certainly don't seem to be in a hurry to log in for defense fleets.

[Grath]

I'm not entirely sure who remains as potential PL hirers in a post NC future. Pretty much everyone left either can't afford it or doesn't need it barring the DRF coalition partners turning on the DRF, which seems unlikely.

Well, tbh, with smaller coalitions left in EVE, you may find us able to take on more than one contract at once, by allowing a smaller force to deploy in an area (1/2 our supers, standard fleet members with either JC's or just outright split the fleets).

You'd also be shocked at how many people are interested in hiring us. I think if the price for our services comes down (due to not moving the WHOLE damn force in) you may find more of those people paying for us.

[Burnizz]

Probably not on the same scale as the DRF hires you though. Bringing firepower to kill a moon or 2 maybe. Hired as surprise extra muscle in a fight your employers anticipate being outnumbered by supers. I'm not convinced anyone can afford/needs to hire you for entire campaigns like you have been now, but Eve can change a lot before invasion season begins again next fall.

[KWyz]

I think the best of it will be that people WILL want to and be able to hire PL. Let's face it, the fact that mercenaries can thrive in this game is a testament to EVE online's awesomeness.

Think how awesome it would be for Raiden and Evoke and the others to also go the way of the mercenary.

[Gyncognito]

Useless carebear rambings

...is the NC's real problem and always has been.

[Habitual Line Stepper]

Moving over to the DC, as corps as we can, or as individuals where we can't.

[KWyz]

I think it's common knowledge that the North (or more specifically, its players) posses a numerous fleet of supercapitals, despite it shrinking at a rate of one (or five) a day. Do you think we can expect the high-capital density corporations to move, along with their hardware, to Goons or other promising players?(a la Raiden)

[Sansa Comfrey]

I think the best of it will be that people WILL want to and be able to hire PL. Let's face it, the fact that mercenaries can thrive in this game is a testament to EVE online's awesomeness.

Think how awesome it would be for Raiden and Evoke and the others to also go the way of the mercenary.

I think too many groups deciding they don't even need sov is not a healthy situation for EVE.

Sov needs to be something people want.

[tgr]

Agreed. Having mercenary corps/alliances is one thing and is fine, but with the way things are going right now, sov is looking less and less worth it apart from supercap production and epeen "look ma, that's mine", and that's just not enough to entice way too many of the empire dwellers out of empire and into 0.0 so they can get blown up.

[Grath]

I think you'll find what other non sov holding groups are finding, and what we and Raiden.(When they first formed there was a leak in Foreplay where they were trying to figure out how not to go broke) already know:

Its pretty fucking hard to fund an alliance without Sov, and being nomadic sounds cool and all, but it can be rough at times on your members wallets.



You'll see a few guys try it out, and I expect huge number drops in those alliances as they get lean from people not being able to cope with that, and cap fuel is only going up in price.

[HeliconOne]

Agreed. Having mercenary corps/alliances is one thing and is fine, but with the way things are going right now, sov is looking less and less worth it apart from supercap production and epeen "look ma, that's mine", and that's just not enough to entice way too many of the empire dwellers out of empire and into 0.0 so they can get blown up.

Supercap production isn't exactly looking like a smart proposition long term either.

[KWyz]

Helicone is right. The devs have hinted that they are aware of the status of supercapitals. These and technetium might be on the short list of things to nerf.



Or not. Not like CCP was ever in a hurry to fix things, they usually are in a hurry to make things less fun.

[Praesus Lecti]

You'll see all the NC alliances lose a good number of their members but I expect nearly all of them will try to get into either Goons or Test/Gents/Bdeal so they can "remain NC". Fully expect to see Majesta and RAGE cascade into oblivion followed shortly by Stellar Polaris and Gypsy Band. Any NC B-F Team that haven't sworn fealty to Goons will probably find themselves facing TEST roaming gangs flooding their space.

I foresee IRC sliding over into Tenal from Cobalt Edge, White Noise will take most of Tribute with Solar Fleet and Red Alliance solid in Geminate and Raiden covering most of Vale.

[Kireiina]

I don't know that Test or Goons are going to be in a huge rush to absorb the massive number of largely inactive pilots that make up the NC alliances. The cultural incompatibility really does exist on both sides of the fence and I'm not sure goons / Test really want the massive but inactive bulk that makes up most of the NC numbers.

[Wusti]

I don't know that Test or Goons are going to be in a huge rush to absorb the massive number of largely inactive pilots that make up the NC alliances. The cultural incompatibility really does exist on both sides of the fence and I'm not sure goons / Test really want the massive but inactive bulk that makes up most of the NC numbers.

Funny you should say that, I was discussing this situation with someone else only yesterday. Who wants people who won't fight when the chips are down is an appropriate tl:dr.

[Sa'Shena]

Funny you should say that, I was discussing this situation with someone else only yesterday. Who wants people who won't fight when the chips are down is an appropriate tl:dr.

More than likely the NC Corps that ARE active would just reform into a smaller group, probably bringing active Supercapital pilots together. Good old Barbarian invasion follows.

[Atticus]

I expect the same as I expect from every fail cascade in Eve. It happens so often in this game that the speculation tends to follow similar avenues.

The decent corps are smart enough to see the tsunami coming and make contacts with other alliances with contingency plans. Smart pilots do the same thing. Decent exec corps tend to try and reform alliances by squatting or going to npc null.

Shitty alliances will go to high sec to "reform" and fail even further. Shitty corps will stick by sinking ships even after the rats have jumped off. Shitty players stick by their shitty corps and don't have the intelligence to move on to something better and make the game more fun for themselves.

Eve is primarily a people game. If you're part of the NC right now, you need to assess your leadership. Are they talking out their ass or do they have an actual practical plan to fix what are clearly issues in your alliance?

[R0ze]

IThe decent corps are smart enough to see the tsunami coming and make contacts with other alliances

Offtopic, but since when the decent corps are called the ones first to jump the ship?

[Mira Z]

More than likely the NC Corps that ARE active would just reform into a smaller group, probably bringing active Supercapital pilots together. Good old Barbarian invasion follows.

If only there was a super capital light, comically inept sov holding entity that had just given the active and competent fraction of the NC a good reason to be first target for the barbarian invasion.

[Atticus]

Offtopic, but since when the decent corps are called the ones first to jump the ship?

Well, decent corps should have contingency plans in the event their alliance fails and standing offers to join other alliances. If you're losing time and time again, with no direction or effort towards improvement, then things are sliding down hill. I suppose its up to opinion when is the right time to jump ship but getting assets safe should be the primary concern in the fail cascading scenario. I can remember hounding every single corp member who came online/emailing/reminding on ts to get their crap into corp hanger and then staying up all night having to move crap to npc space when a final timer in a staging system was coming.

[Praesus Lecti]

Offtopic, but since when the decent corps are called the ones first to jump the ship?

Well, decent corps should have contingency plans in the event their alliance fails and standing offers to join other alliances. If you're losing time and time again, with no direction or effort towards improvement, then things are sliding down hill. I suppose its up to opinion when is the right time to jump ship but getting assets safe should be the primary concern in the fail cascading scenario. I can remember hounding every single corp member who came online/emailing/reminding on ts to get their crap into corp hanger and then staying up all night having to move crap to npc space when a final timer in a staging system was coming.

Not to mention the decent corps have a far better feel for how an alliance is performing. They easily see who is active in defense, active in attack and who does nothing. It's the carebear, the 'I'm just here for me' and the 'that's someone else's responsibility' group who are oblivious to the health and welfare of an alliance. They deserve to drown when the ship sinks.

[Tyrael]

Welp. Back to Providence.

Anyone got a cyno in Venal?

[ihateblobs]

Welp. Back to Providence.

Anyone got a cyno in Venal?

6nj is ok?>

[Zod]

If only there was a super capital light, comically inept sov holding entity that had just given the active and competent fraction of the NC a good reason to be first target for the barbarian invasion.

hmm Atlas. would be something fitting that description.

[Gyncognito]

The only wild I see here is that MM/Rzr have owned the north since north's were able to be owned. It's an identity thing. As long as those names exist there's going to be some aspiring skymarshal wanting to go on a holy crusade to take back the homeland. They need only wait for the momentum to die off.

If you're expecting IRC to hold tenal or even CE against anything short of an ibis swarm...you're mistaken. 100% of any usefulness they've managed in this campaign has been at knife point from PL and their DRF overlords. What ever entities take tribute will quickly find themselves with IRC as the MH of their new coalition, yet without any historical ties and being the friend of little more the convenience.

If the miracle of H-w doesn't rematerialized then I just don't see those entities giving up and going away. They'll be shadows of their former selves to be sure, but I think you'll see the Rzr/MM version of TRI MK (whatever) for awhile. They'll be a crew of bitter vets that'll harrass the crap outta the north until they quit for WoTs or coalesce into a NC(.) style invader force.

Honestly, when was the last time razor lived in ANY of the space it owned? MM at least lives in tribute. Tenal is a gd ghost town and has been for years. They should have rented the place out and at least then they'd have a speed bump to stop the IRC juggernaught...

Renter vs Renter. Two scrubs enter. One scrub leaves. THUNDERDOME!

[Atticus]

Ecclesiastes 1:4 "Men go and come, but [Venal] abides."

[DeathGrip]

I think you'll find what other non sov holding groups are finding, and what we and Raiden.(When they first formed there was a leak in Foreplay where they were trying to figure out how not to go broke) already know:

Its pretty fucking hard to fund an alliance without Sov, and being nomadic sounds cool and all, but it can be rough at times on your members wallets.



You'll see a few guys try it out, and I expect huge number drops in those alliances as they get lean from people not being able to cope with that, and cap fuel is only going up in price.

Showing my age some, when -A- booted Axiom Empire from Impass we tried this and succeeded and had great fun doing so, but as you mentioned over time members start to go broke, or if not broke its hard pressed to grow in strength. We brought more members in because of what we were doing, but over all you need more power, and power then and even now is what you can fly into the fights, lose and be back in again tomarrow. Axiom never figured this out, and is actually why I left them after having a fight with the CEO (Steel) about how the alliance can grow in terms of wealth. He wanted members to pay, I felt any member pvp'ing shouldnt have to pay. In the end I left, few months later Axiom / Dirty Deeds pretty much closed up. Was sad, had a lot of friends, but sadly as you mentioned isk becomes an issue with these types of alliances.

[KWyz]

How were wars fought in those days? I don't mean the mind-wrecking POS-spam, but the subcap fights.

I can imagine how game-breaking titans were then, wasn't it a favourite move of super-owning alliances to double-DD fleets? How did people fight that?

[Atticus]

How were wars fought in those days? I don't mean the mind-wrecking POS-spam, but the subcap fights.

I can imagine how game-breaking titans were then, wasn't it a favourite move of super-owning alliances to double-DD fleets? How did people fight that?

Jump in, see titan, welp doomsday, 200 man fleet in pods.

In all seriousness, 100km Fleet BS (that could tank multiple doomsdays) slug matchs occurred. Think WW1 naval battles, line of battleships aligned towards something just slugging against another line of battleships. During Tri Mk. 2 (?)'s campaign in Pure Blind during Spring 2009 (I think?), it being a big deal when six NC titans landed on field and proceeded to doomsday each fleet that came at them.

[KWyz]

There is a general, prevalent impression today that it is almost impossible to fight someone who has a supercap fleet. Did people manage to do that(fight supercap powers) without a force of their own? Dreads and carriers were a big deal back then, weren't they? did they seem as OP as supercaps now? History lessons are awesome, but that rep whore Phreeze won't write more blogs. Wich is a DAMN SHAME!

[HeliconOne]

There used to be a tipping point where if a carrier fleet was big enough subcaps really struggled to break through the remote rep circlejerk before a zillion fighters raped everyone, but that was mostly a consequence of horrific lag and a relative lack of high DPS T2 battleship pilots, rather than game balance.

[Atticus]

Before they got buffed, super carriers were few and far between. The reward vs. time it took to build them was way off. Caps weren't produced as much as they are now. There's been a big increase in amount of people in null sec than the early days. As well, before the introduction of the drone regions and/or pacification of the north, you really didn't have the large scale industry going on as you do now. Fleet sizes have only become bigger and bigger over time in Eve. Super caps remain as the tool they were meant to be - a multiplier. Back in the day, with 6 titans (6 real ppl), you could effectively prevent 400 ppl from achieving their objective. AoE doomsdays would level the playing field and prevent blobs from being successful. Today, you destroy 50k power blocks with 250 super cap pilots. Its the same story. People have/will always complain about whatever defeats them. The smart simply improve and figure out counters. 100km BS are now laughed at because ahacs ripped them a new one. Drake fleets were designed as counters to ahacs. Hellcats were designed to be counters to drake fleets. And so on, and so on.

Keep in mind, I only got into 0.0 at the tail end of 2008 so I don't know how things worked really prior to that.

[Sa'Shena]

The old North and the new North are going to be strikingly similar. Big conglomerations of blues that sit on colossal piles of Technetium producing Supercapitals first for themselves and then for everybody who is willing to pay for them. The Bots will get swapped into the new alliances to happily work the day away while the new residents consolidate their positions. The DRF bot, the NC bot, and now whoever moves into the North will bot. The place isn't meant to be warred over, its mean to be stripmined for technetium and bounties, and that's exactly what is going to happen.

The fact is the North has a pair of endemic effects that ruin alliances. It makes them ludicrously spacerich which means that eventually, someone in authority is going to get greedy and either horde stuff for personal use or RMT it away, and it's going to make them intensely soft since they'll have whole flocks of people trying to sign up with you. People will get bored, shit will be AWOX'ed, blues will be assigned to people who don't deserve it, and the alliances will get bloated up with spies. The cycle of the North will abide.

[HeliconOne]

The NC is literally Lucius the Eternal.

[Gyncognito]

I've seen this NC thing from both sides. They have this huge coalition of people and theoretically could match supers at least in the amount being deployed now. However, we're talking about some of the richest alliance in the game. RZR/MM have been sitting in that space since dotlan started keeping records. What is the rest of eve supposed to do?

We hear barrier of entry referenced to eve quite often as an argument against new players joining. My counter to that is that there was always a place in fleet for everyone. Even a newbie interceptor has a role. Does it now? With the sheer volume of supers being tossed around here...who's going to be able to counter that with anything other then MORE supers? That's the only counter I've seen anyone able to muster.

You could say the NC's supers won't go away. That's true. However, they will soon become diluted. These people have never lost their space. Never slummed in npc space. Most of them think fail cascade is a word that applies to someone else. They have no concept. I expect significant supers to go the bitter vet route. They'll fade away or leave for greener (richer) pastures.

Now that they have the NEW NC aka DRF's massive NAP. Who's the counter to that super blob? I think for at least the next 6-8 months you going to see a drf that can and will do pretty much wtf every it wants with literally no counter. Hell it maybe to late to counter them at all. They may end up like NC such that only time can welp them.

When I was a little noob rifter pilot, I remember seeing 3 alliance gang up on 2 and grind out a war over 2 months. Fleets never really got over 250 on either side. I remember goons coming in and just destroying everything and thinking wow how can anyone counter 200 t2 fit battleships? The battles were fought and lost, butthere were wrecks on both sides.

It's not 200 t1 vs 200 t2 fit bs anymore. It's pellet guns vs 155mm artillery. Against the DRF 50-100 supers, well nobody up there is fighting anymore because they know all the wrecks will be white. They are the most mobile/destructive platform in the game and they are coming to a system near you.

[Don Peyote]

Tribute
Attachment 970

I've posted this three times now for maximum rep farming


I think that we'll see a lot of different moves, from merging (As some of Ragesta have with FountainCo peeps), and reforming to taking some crappy space somewhere (Maybe Detorid to fight the good fight alongside their newfound friends in Stainwagon). Of course, many will cling to their past relevancy and fight a guerrilla campaign from Venal for a while to come and many many more will quit

Only time will tell

[poaw]

The more I think about it, the more I think it's just a personal bias against supercaps. While they ruin my game, it's just that, MY game. Is it so wrong that one side plays right and wins, and by extension someone/everyone else plays wrong and loses?

[MrFish]

Tribute
Attachment 970

I've posted this three times now for maximum rep farming


I think that we'll see a lot of different moves, from merging (As some of Ragesta have with FountainCo peeps), and reforming to taking some crappy space somewhere (Maybe Detorid to fight the good fight alongside their newfound friends in Stainwagon). Of course, many will cling to their past relevancy and fight a guerrilla campaign from Venal for a while to come and many many more will quit

Only time will tell

You missed Merciless out you fat cunt...

[Wusti]

You missed Merciless out you fat cunt...

That was on purpose rofl

[Dwergi]

Just a correction: Merciless isn't taking sov, nor has it ever wanted to (as far as I've been informed).

Majesta has been moving to N5Y all day - Merciless bridged on a Chimera at a midpoint whose pilot ejected, it's currently being hawked on our forums. Gypsy Band have been living in N5Y for months now and have made no signs of wanting to leave any time soon. Realistically, they have nowhere to go, and have contributed 0 pilots to NC CTAs since they got evicted from Geminate. We've heard rumblings that RAGE will be joining Gypsy Band and Majesta in N5Y, but nothing concrete has been seen yet. Brick Squad was sniffing around for a while as well, but Merciless absorbed two of their corps (FKRUN and HVC), and IE-EX and hangers-on seem to have moved back to HED-GP.

As for the DRF side: NCdot will probably be taking a constellation or two in Vale along with Raiden, RA and White Noise. I'm fully expecting White Noise to relocate completely to Tribute and surroundings, though I couldn't back this up with anything except a gut feeling.

Of the remaining NC alliances, I think MM and RAZOR will shed their few active corps to other alliances, then I have no idea. Crashing on the Venal couch seems beneath them, but their identity is so tied into the North that I can't see them going anywhere but NPC PB or Venal. Whether or not ME, RAGE, Majesta, MM and RZR try to form NC Mk. II in Venal remains to be seen. It would definitely make things awkward for Merciless without regular NCdot support, which would probably not be particularly forthcoming if they properly relocate to Vale. Mostly Harmless, Get Off My Lawn and other Pure Blind residents will probably sidle up with Goons and become members of the Deklein Coalition; UFA will scatter to the four winds, joining whichever renter alliance gives them the most favourable terms. FCON and Cold Steel would probably move back to Providence now that CVA is taking control.

Personally, I've never been more excited in EVE, and certainly not since I moved to Venal - I never thought the day would come that the north wouldn't be NC. If we end up with 10,000 former NC living next door, I'd still be glad we helped burn the north. It's been a while since Merciless wasn't the big fish in a little pond and I would welcome the adversity.

[Fkin]

I am pretty indifferent to 0.0 these days but I would love to see a big monolithic Russian/Russian allied block owning the north and east. I have no idea where 0.0 could even go from there.