Tell me more about how good they are at small gang stuff...
Helios Black - Origin. - Black Legion.
EVE-Kill BRs get often show an incomplete picture of the odds involved when one side doesn't lose anything.
I say that because I'm familiar enough with one of them that I can safely say that the link to it your provided paints an inaccurate picture of what happened.
Just to use the first fight as an example, there were about 160ish hostiles and 25ish friendlies when we jumped in to save Psychotic Tendencies (local at 190 or so before we jumped), with RnK+UMAD bringing the balance to about 65 vs 160.
Eve-kill link; http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=13091580 - we had two triage not showing, they had (I think) 19 Scimis (4 showing), plus triage carriers repping a POS but never warping in.
Not that any of this is relevant to small gang PvP.
Although it should be said that when they live in WHs with nullsec connections, KEEN do a lot of roaming, often with a Sleipnir/Astarte shield setup with Bassis and some Cynabals/recons mixed in, usually in gangs of 10 or less. I don't think their WH has a nullsec connection atm, so you won't see them in nullsec often atm, but they move systems quite frequently. The nature of WH fights just makes it so they usually have to bring heavy T3 setups, and more often than not the killboard battlereports there will be skewed to unless KEEN loses a ship or two.
I picked a bunch of fights at random off of their killboard, it looks like a picked some bad ones to illustrate my point. Regardless of that, RnK doesn't usually fight outnumbered, and they often use caps to overpower their opponents regardless of whether or not they're needed. The videos are well-edited and look cool, but how much theorycrafting and what good was it to keep refitting an Abaddon for neuts and smartbombs and whatnot? The things they use sound good until you think about it for 30 seconds or so. They'd be better off just leaving their fits as is instead of trying to refit in the middle of battle. How much good did that smartbomb Abaddon that was nowhere near what it needed to be near do in that fight?
"Carriers versus Supercarriers"
And on top of all of that, they released it in late March of 2012, but the fight happened so long ago that Super aggression mechanics hadn't even been changed yet in the video and they don't really fight or kill any supers.
And everything else aside, they don't do small gangs so the whole argument is moot.
Helios Black - Origin. - Black Legion.
Once upon a time there was a lonely corporation living in Serpentis Prime called GK inc. My corp mates loved fighting with them as they were pretty decent at small gang warfare. We would do 1vs1, 3-4vs3-4 or 5vs5, but then 1 day out of the blue we started forming small gangs together and DAMN shit got real. I couldn't even imagine what we could do with 10, 20 or 30 men fleets. Probably the best times i ever had in Eve.
Sadly GK joined evil PL and i'm sad panda ever since.
Helios Black - Origin. - Black Legion.
For the sake of this thread staying on topic let's pretend refitting on carriers is Gypsy magic and RnK doesn't exist. We're not really small gang PvP'ers, and thus not relevant to this thread. Nor are triage tactics.
So to stay on topic; I've allways thought it's difficult to define who's good and who's great when it comes to small gang PvPers. If I was to pick a few favorites I'd say Genos, Rote Kapelle and Outbreak. But I'd do so for a simple reason, those are the ones who either make videos or have lived close to me recently. Most alliances one might think of as small gang PvP'ers are really more medium sized, at least as I see it. I allways figured small was 10 or less, medium 10-30, large 30-60 and gangs larger than that were "American" sized. Gangs ofcourse being roaming gangs, not sluggish Maelstrom fleets or 10 titans on the Ossogur gate.
That, ofcourse, makes it very hard to pick who's the best. It's easy to see who's shit, granted, but the people I think of when I think of small gang pros are generally more in the medium to large gang area, like Darkside or Black Legion. It all depends on what you consider small gang PvP, and if you want to look at the alliance or corporation as a whole or on the abilities of a few select pilots. Even in large "blob warfare" centric alliances like CONDI you'll find groups of at least decent small gang PvP'ers like DelveGoons.
As far as small gang PvP goes, I guess I'd put more value into a groups ability to find entertaining fights than their ability to win those.
Really, all of you guys should go back to the first page and read that Duncan Tanner quote (TL;DR everyone is bad, there are just few leaders/eventmakers that stand out more than others)
Additionally I'm not even sure what would qualify as "pro" in this context.
GENOS/HYDRA obv. comes to mind first, as they have a lot of amazing solo-pvpers.
But even there a lot of non-solo PvP amounts to camping PR-/M-O w/ every force multiplier possible and fighting bads.
Then theres quite a lot of people who are p good at catching ratters w <10 duders and fighting the kitchen sink that comes to save them. If this qualifies as "small-scale pr0s" first bunch of dudes that comes to my mind are Drunk Gang (because they recently joined DS and do that stuff in the south nearly every day) as well as certain people from Stain Empire. I'm sure there are more.
And then there is a lot of smaller entities who like to do organized roaming gangs with >10 people. I guess since R&K was mentioned (no idea why you would btw. its not like slaved faction battleships backed by triage are easy to kill or hard to fly for the average grunt) those are still somewhat relevant to this thread.
The problem in judging the "skill" is - since the probability of these groups to meet each other and fight is somewhat low they mostly fight fleets of inferior shiptype and organization.
But anyway entities that havent been mentioned:
Gypsy Band - they have a lot of bads/retards but also at the very least one very capable small/medscale roaming FC + a lot of good PvPers
Iris Covenant/The Gorgon Empire - they do a lot of pulse Oracle based roams w/ <20 people
Shadow Cartel - dont know much about them, but they kinda dumpstered us once with their all 100mn AB gang, so not terrible. Ah, and its Helicity Bosons corp apparently.
Gyspy band impressed me with their bombing runs in the Drone Wars but I never really was in their tz to know how they were for small gang pvp. Iris Convenant I have seen on several occasions now doing well on various kb's but again, never actually flown against them. They do seem like someone to watch though. Sounds like the same with shadow cartel, especially after they just raped raiden. supers.
Rooks and Kings are not small gang pvpers, and based on my experiences I would not expect much from them. Fighting with almost as much logi as the enemy has ships backed up by triage carriers was the impression I got from them when I lived in Syndicate and I doubt that has changed much. They might have some neat br's of them pubstomping some scrublords, but I think against a decent group they would consistently lose.
When you guys think of small gangs are you referring to size, or size and fleet compositions. I tend to have more respect for people in deceptively effective fleets, like Hydras nano drakes, than for other "elite" groups that fly a small gang of vindicators, backed by logistics and capitals.
I guess what I'm trying to say is good pvpers in a more engagable fleet seem to be better and get more decent fights than the guys who fly the shiny fleet that you wont engage without 2-3x their numbers.
If you kill enough of them they stop fighting - Gen. Curtis Lemay
Fear the KKM
I refit my super(s) countless times.....also during distress...(getting hotdropped by 75man NC gang with 4-5 hics, guardians and 65+bs) with 1 friend at my side, initsially semi cap fit. (inda99/tekapos which was a waffle at that time, turned out to be a true bro. and insted of warping out (enemy totaly neglected him) he burned around(he used the mwd fit) and next to me into my refit range so I could swap to tank fit and thus survive long enough for backup to get orginized and sorted out)
And like 1000 times during combat and fishing. as long as your running a less than 10 man capital gang refitting is totaly valid. Tho its a good chance your outside refit range if you dropping with 2-3 triage(which is more like what RNK does) however they should always aproce eachother unless alignment have priorty.
I dont see the whole problem with refitting, only problem is when you fly in huge blobs/fleet fights and too many peeps are in range of eachother.....:mystery:
I know supers is bit different(you cant web supers ect) tho in theory it isnt that different in terms of alignment/refitting and several other subjects.
"God created the world in seven days, in a smaller, but no less impressive gesture, I destroyed HTA in 5"
Mr Blue / Twisted girl /Stripperella - SNIGG - PL
define "pros" ... whoever has every t3 booster and flies like a fag taking no risks
Rooks and Kings are not small gang. The list of good small gang corporations or alliance is p long. Go do some home work. Many of them are not well known.