Hybrids are bad because CCP only boosts the weakest weapon type once every 3 years.
The rep bonus could be "fixed" by simply making it apply to reps received also. Abaddons would no longer overshadow every other fleet BS just because of their bonus, the designers could be happy because their would still be a difference between the races. Everybody wins, the only people who "lose" are those who only trained Amarr.
The Gallente ships would probably be even tolerable in small scale engagements if the bonuses were shifted towards shield instead of trying to make armor Gallente viable.Originally Posted by Aeon221
That being said, the only armor gall ship I fly is the domi, everything else being shieldtanked.
I guess it would make more sense to have the speedy races, minmatar and gallente (yeahyeah) be shieldtanking and let caldari armortank instead.
Makes me wonder if a straight Hybrid buff would still cause gallente to be overshadowed; in a world where Rails did acceptable damage and blasters tore everything apart up close, would the general preference for shield RR at the subcap level, and the love for the Abaddon's resist bonus cause people to turn to the other BS with that resist bonus, the Rokh, and cause the Gallente BS's to remain ignored? (especially as the way blasters get buffed could play towards the Rokh's other bonus, range)
From everything I read it will be a 2 or 3 part nerf/buff patch set. Buff Hybrids>Observe effects>Nerf/Buff Hyrbrids and Buff Gallente> Observe effects> Nerf/Buff Hybrids and Nerf/Buff Gallente
I actually like it better with the idea of them being opposed like that:
Fast races: Gallent Minmater (armor shield)
Slow races: Amarr Caldari (armor shield)
A tweak to the guns, and both the overall agility and speed of the ships themselves. The ardrestia (im probably butchering that) handles like a monster, it was awesome to play with, it jumps up to speed and its overall speed while armor tanked is impressive. That should be how ALL gallent ships feel in a fight, and they don't.
Fucking Grath just reached into my mind and stole all the words while I was asleep, I swear.
This is how it should be.
Save Gallente, save the Universe!
The Adrestia is what the Deimos should have been
They had to make the Adrestia nearly as fast (after bonuses) and more agile than a Vagabond in order to get it to handle that way while armor tanked. CCP would have to buff the shit out of both speed and agility for Gallente to make them perform anywhere near that level. Just boosting the agility doesn't seem to do it. The Vigilant is much lighter and more agile than the Deimos (even more agile than the Adrestia), but has similar speed and it feels pretty pokey when plated.
So, could Gallente be fixed just by giving them the base speed and agility similar to some of their Minmatar counterparts? Deimos becomes similar to the Vagabond, the Brutix gets bumped up to Cyclone levels of speed and agility, Megathrons occupy some middle ground between Typhoons and Tempests, etc. I'm not sure that would be enough given the pretty massive penalties to speed and agility that armor plates and armor rigs give.
Edit: I WANT armor-tanked Gallente blaster boats to be that awesome. I just doubt that it's possible given the mechanics of armor tanking.
Yea, really, you DO want them all a version of that agile, so the Mega handles like a Pest, and a Deimos handles like a vaga. The nice thing is that even if you were to nano up a gallent ship and shield tank it, most often times the shield tank ends up being shit anyway. Regardless, you want your dualplated trimarked whatever to jump straight to speed and have that speed be REALLY impressive, so that the large distances can quickly be covered. I mean, if your plated Deimos had a top speed of 2700m/s with plates and trimarks on it coupled with a tengu style align time (4-5 seconds) then you would see people flying those, in addition, this would put the onieros back into roaming gangs, and not just make the scimitar the default roaming logistics.
Really with those little changes MOST gallente ships start to look a LOT more interesting.
Add to that a huge tracking buff for both rails and blasters, so that they are literally the best tracking gun in game by a long stretch, and I think you have a fun race to play again with gallente.
This might sound good,but it will not be enough forsomany reasons.
First one is the fitting:
You can fit a full rack of 425's on caga with T2 extenders and shit with a simple PDU or 3% powergrid implant.
To fit that on a deimos(proper armor tank, rack of the biggest guns and MWD) you are ~390 grid short, so you need 32% more grid.
For a reference, a zealot is 230 grid short, which is something like 15%. And don't forget the zealot has one more low slot. Zealot has 125m sig radius, deimos has 160.
Another thing to be considered while comparing shieldand armor tank is the natural recharge.
Deimos needs to be revised entirely.
The mega should come close to the tempest in terms of agility and speed(less speed, but less mass too, to handle better with armortank), while the hyperion should get it's bonus switched to something like 7.5% armor amount per level. This way even one plate will do wonders.
Astarte suffers the same way as the deimos, it's 30% slower than a sleipnir, it's almost impossible to fit and it has one less slot. It's fair to say the other two commands - NH and absolution are slo pretty broken. Abso can be fit,but has 1 less turret, and NH pretty much needs to be revised entirely.
And in the end in terms of close combat, sleipnir/vaga will hit 30 o+f, while deimos astarte will be lucky to hit 17 or so. Not tomention zealot will hit 40 with pulses. And in the end, shieldtanks will let you fit enhancers, while armortanking you can hardly spare the slot. There is also astarte's sig radius of 300,while the sleipnir sits at 240. 25% more.
Revise comands entirely, revise gallente battleships, eagle, ferox, brutix, myrm, buff blasters a bit(maybe 20%optimal, atleast 20% more tracking), give rails a lot more alpha a bit more DPS with more tracking.
There is so much shit to be done, I doubt CCP will ever get intoit with the whole Dust thing, noble exchange and fixing supercaps, sov warafe and 0.0 in general. You can't just fix one thing.
Ok so they need some fitting work, but I was talking conceptually how the ships should act.
Also I think that if you make Hybrids track so well that you never think about fitting TE's on them then you have solved another problem. I don't like messing with the alpha, its not bad as is, the RoF isn't bad either, they have a HUGE range advantage in the instance of rails, so making them track like a short range weapon system is something that neither of the other gun systems has.
Blasters do SHIT TONS of damage, and according to Mr Rive you can fit medium blasters to lay out damage in the 30+ Km range, something thats REALLY easy to do with large blasters. I think again, going hard core on the tracking buff, like, a HUGE tracking buff, would be something that would make them extremely desirable when coupled with a vagabond like speed and handling, possibly to the point of a slight nano revival in ships that didn't center around cynabals and vagabonds, adding in a diemos that can track at speed delivering blaster damage.
Fitting of course may need to be looked at, but thats something on a ship by ship basis that needs to be addressed.
EDIT: And I do agree that Gal CS bonuses need a complete re write as the ones they have can just be negated almost entirely by a single random EC300 drone. Maybe even something as simple as shifting the command bonuses to be drone oreiented, bandwidth, damage, and hit poits for example. Or speed and tracking for one, Hit points and damage on another, and drone bandwidth on the 3rd.
Suggested revision to Graths master plan/bation. Instead of boosting agility a bunch, which would result in shield tanked gallente nano ships. Give these ships a 20 percent reduction to the negative impact of armor plates and trimarks per level.
Mr Rive is smoking something or talking about the Adrestia.... Not even the Eagle with Null can reach 30km range with blasters. Rack full of Tracking enhancers leaves you 19km optimal and 16km fall-off. Calling very edge of your fall-off (with no DPS to start with) as "laying out damage" is a gross exaggeration.
Edit: just double checked the Vigilant and Adrestria. 3x Tracking enhancers + null = 7.9 + 22. Sure, You'll get a hit on a target 30km away, but I'll reiterate, "Laying out damage to 30km" is quite the exaggeration.
[Arrador] possesses a considerable understanding of ship configurations, strengths and weakness. He gives clear and purposeful instructions, is good at taking advantage of the fleet-composition he's dealt, and never loses sight of the main goal: fun. This, paired with an excellent tolerance for strong drink gives him an almost Churchillian capability to win, despite being completely pissed on booze most of the fleet operation.
Hey you realize that you do damage to 2x falloff right?
I mean, its not much damage at that extreme range, but half of 600dps at the optimal +1x falloff is still 300 dps, and thats not TOO shabby at that range as long as its constantly hitting.
EDIT: As a baseline for the buff, maybe look at all hybrids, and tool them up as if they were under the affects of 3x TE's for all basic stats for blasters, and maybe just tracking for rails, idk i kinda like rails where they are if they'd just be the king of tracking, to the point of even tracking like the next lower set of guns for all other types (large rails track like medium arty/beams, Medium rails track like small arties and beams, Small rails track like OHGODITSGOTSMALLRAILSFIT).
And yea, giving the gallent race that kind of bonus would be cool, I was trying to do it without having to give an entire races ships a latent bonus, I figure slot layout and base sig size means that flying around in a pulse laser heavy game in large shield extended gallent ships still isn't very desirable so I wasn't as concerned with that. I know about shield fitting brutix's and hyperions, but honestly they hold up crap against pulse laser DPS because they lack the minmatars defense to that: 90% em shield resists.
That said ignoring the rig and plate fitting penalties would make them boss too. Get relatively the same effect with a slight overall boost in speeds for the race in general.
I still think you are overestimating the positive effects of massive tracking boost. Arties track for shit,yest they are the dominant LR platform atm.
And when it comes to numbers:
Large guns, considering max skills
Tachyon Beam Laser II:
(Faction Multifreq L) does 52 DPS, 471 alpha strike, 33+25(Optimal+Falloff), 0.0174 tracking.
(Aurora L) - 30 DPS, 273 alpha, 119+25(O+F)
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II:
(RF EMP L) -39 DPS, 1118 alpha, 30+44(O+F), 0.01125
(Tremor L) - 22 DPS, 648 alpha, 108+44(O+F),
425mm Railgun II:
(faction AM L) - 42 DPS, 288 alpha, 36+30(O+F), 0.01202
(Spike L) - 24 DPS, 167 alpha, 130+30(O+F)
If rails are changed with 10% dps, 2x alpha, 425mm railgun II becomes:
46 DPS, 576 alpha with Faction AM L
26 DPS, 334 alpha with Spike L
Currently comparing apoc, mega, tempest and rokh:
Megathron:
(Faction AM L) 605 DPS, 3185 alpha, 36+30(O+F), 0.01653 tracking
(Spike L) 351 DPS, 1847 alpha, 130+30(O+F)
Tempest:
(Faction EMP L) 639 DPS, I would say OVER 9000 alpha, but it's actually 10596, 30+44 (O+F), 0.01125 tracking
(Tremor L) 370 DPS, 6143 alpha, 108+44(O+F)
Apocalypse:
(Faction Multifreq L) 693 DPS, 4766 alpha, 45+25(O+F), 0.0174 tracking
(Aurora L) 401 DPS, 2763 alpha, 163+25(O+F)
Rokh - tbh rokh is somewhere inbeteen tier2 and tier3 battleships, But since it's uses are closer to fleet battleships than to tier3:
(Faction AM L) 553 DPS, 2912 alpha, 54+30(O+F), 0.01202 tracking
(Spike L) 321 DPS, 1688 alpha, 194+30(O+F)
Medium guns - Heavy Beam Lasers don't have so much alpha actually, only 10% higher than rails, but arties still rock:
250mm Railgun II:
(Faction AM M) 31 DPS, 144 alpha, 18+15, 0.02875 tracking
(Spike M) 18 DPS, 83 alpha, 65+15
Heavy Beam Laser II:
(Faction Multifreq M) 36 DPS, 157 alpha, 15+10, 0.04125 tracking
(Aurora M) 21 DPS, 91 alpha, 54+10
720mm Howitzer II:
(Faction EMP M) 29 DPS, 418 alpha, 15+22, 0.0275 tracking
(Tremor M) 17 DPS, 242 alpha, 54+22
10% DPS and 2x alpha might look too much of an improvement for medium rails, but here we should consider what ships actually use them, both zealot and muninn have 1 dmg bonus and 1 RoF bonus, but deimos have 2 dmg bonuses, which in general transfers into less total DPS increase and more alpha increase than the other two.
The other popular long range med guns platform - the battlecruisers, while both amarr and minmatar have their tier 1 and 2 battlecruisers as gunships, gallente and caldari are forced to use tier1, so even before any comparison these two have one less slot and are a lot harder to fit(still cheaper though). Full rack of LR guns on brutix is 5% over it's max powergrid, on ferox it leaves about 5% free powergrid, 8% free PG on harbinger, ~13% on hurricane.
To add some numbers for affected ships:
Zealot:
(Faction Multifreq M) - 501 DPS, 1241 alpha, 23+8.1(O+F) 0.04125 tracking
(Aurora M) - 290 DPS, 719 alpha, 81+8.1
Muninn:
(Faction EMP M) - 399 DPS, 3298 alpha, 23+22(O+F), 0.0371 tracking
(Tremor M) - 232 DPS, 1912 alpha 81+22(O+F)
Deimos:
(Faction AM M) - 405 DPS, 1422 alpha, 18+23(O+F), 0.02875 tracking
(Spike M) - 235 DPS, 824 alpha, 65+23(O+F)
Basicly deimos got 15% more alpha over zealot, about 2% better DPS than muninn, worst tracking, 20% less optimal. Changes will put it at 258 DPS and 1648 alpha(with spike M), still a lot less dps than zealot, worse alpha than muninn and worst tracking. 5% optimal instead of falloff per level will put deimos at 81km optimal with spike M on HAC V, which is exactly the same as muninn and zealot.
On battlecruiser scale:
Ferox has 80% more optimal than Harbinger/ Hurricane
Harbinger has 70% more DPS and alpha than Ferox
Hurricane has 55% more DPS and 3,65x Ferox's alpha
Brutix has 20% more optimal than Harbi and Hurricane
Harbi has about 15% more DPS and about 9% more alpha than Brutix
Hurricane has 5% more DPS than brutix, about 2.5x Brutix's alpha
Rail Brutix will be pretty good compared to the others. Still pretty hard to fit, not that different than the deimos case.
Ferox desperately needs another turret tbh.
I see what you did but it really just kinda makes it not matter really at all what you pick for large guns, or worst case, things stay as is, as you'll get more dps from pulse and more alpha from arties, I still don't see why you'd bother to ever go with a Hybrid ship under those changes, though I will admit that in ADDITION to a huge tracking buff those changes might be ok.Large guns, considering max skills
Tachyon Beam Laser II:
(Faction Multifreq L) does 52 DPS, 471 alpha strike, 33+25(Optimal+Falloff), 0.0174 tracking.
(Aurora L) - 30 DPS, 273 alpha, 119+25(O+F)
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II:
(RF EMP L) -39 DPS, 1118 alpha, 30+44(O+F), 0.01125
(Tremor L) - 22 DPS, 648 alpha, 108+44(O+F),
425mm Railgun II:
(faction AM L) - 42 DPS, 288 alpha, 36+30(O+F), 0.01202
(Spike L) - 24 DPS, 167 alpha, 130+30(O+F)
If rails are changed with 10% dps, 2x alpha, 425mm railgun II becomes:
46 DPS, 576 alpha with Faction AM L
26 DPS, 334 alpha with Spike L
When you move your changes into here its cool, but centering on rails seems silly, I mean, Rails are cool, but much like beams why bother right now? Pulse can be made to hit pretty damn far, and really, for stopping power nothing beats arties, so where would the rails fit in here in todays unified fleet doctrines?Currently comparing apoc, mega, tempest and rokh:
Megathron:
(Faction AM L) 605 DPS, 3185 alpha, 36+30(O+F), 0.01653 tracking
(Spike L) 351 DPS, 1847 alpha, 130+30(O+F)
Tempest:
(Faction EMP L) 639 DPS, I would say OVER 9000 alpha, but it's actually 10596, 30+44 (O+F), 0.01125 tracking
(Tremor L) 370 DPS, 6143 alpha, 108+44(O+F)
Apocalypse:
(Faction Multifreq L) 693 DPS, 4766 alpha, 45+25(O+F), 0.0174 tracking
(Aurora L) 401 DPS, 2763 alpha, 163+25(O+F)
Rokh - tbh rokh is somewhere inbeteen tier2 and tier3 battleships, But since it's uses are closer to fleet battleships than to tier3:
(Faction AM L) 553 DPS, 2912 alpha, 54+30(O+F), 0.01202 tracking
(Spike L) 321 DPS, 1688 alpha, 194+30(O+F)
Here I completely disagree with that large of a boost, it would make beams not worth bothering over anymore at all, as they'd do about 2dps more, but would be crippled in comparison to the alpha of the rail and its range. The tracking of beams is like, twice arties, the tracking of rails should be twice that of beams, and a 50% increase in alpha without touching the DPS much would then give a clear choice between platforms. Arties for punch, beams for DPS, Rails for literally headshotting moving targets like nobodies business.Medium guns - Heavy Beam Lasers don't have so much alpha actually, only 10% higher than rails, but arties still rock:
250mm Railgun II:
(Faction AM M) 31 DPS, 144 alpha, 18+15, 0.02875 tracking
(Spike M) 18 DPS, 83 alpha, 65+15
Heavy Beam Laser II:
(Faction Multifreq M) 36 DPS, 157 alpha, 15+10, 0.04125 tracking
(Aurora M) 21 DPS, 91 alpha, 54+10
720mm Howitzer II:
(Faction EMP M) 29 DPS, 418 alpha, 15+22, 0.0275 tracking
(Tremor M) 17 DPS, 242 alpha, 54+22
10% DPS and 2x alpha might look too much of an improvement for medium rails, but here we should consider what ships actually use them, both zealot and muninn have 1 dmg bonus and 1 RoF bonus, but deimos have 2 dmg bonuses, which in general transfers into less total DPS increase and more alpha increase than the other two.
This is a fitting thing crossed with a combat philosophy problem, the first is symptomatic of the whole field of gallent and caldari ships, the second is a personal issue with you in that you want all gunnery platforms but you're addressing a two races that have fundamental combat practices that have nothing to do with guns.The other popular long range med guns platform - the battlecruisers, while both amarr and minmatar have their tier 1 and 2 battlecruisers as gunships, gallente and caldari are forced to use tier1, so even before any comparison these two have one less slot and are a lot harder to fit(still cheaper though). Full rack of LR guns on brutix is 5% over it's max powergrid, on ferox it leaves about 5% free powergrid, 8% free PG on harbinger, ~13% on hurricane.
As I said about fittings, they'd have to be adjusted on an individual basis, a lot of ships need it.
There you go again making everything the same. There should be a REASON you'd rather pick rails over beams over arties, otherwise why ever bother cross training or any of that as all races are basically the same and all weapons platforms are basically the same ect ect. Again, the tracking should be as far above the beams as the beams are above the rails. If you've already done a slight buff to hybrids overall in that they act as if they're affected by 3x TE's statswise for Optimal and Falloff (do this blanket wide for all hybrids really) then having them simply track like gods gives you a reason to use them over other things, especially in EVE's new signature/tracking driven combat environment.To add some numbers for affected ships:
Zealot:
(Faction Multifreq M) - 501 DPS, 1241 alpha, 23+8.1(O+F) 0.04125 tracking
(Aurora M) - 290 DPS, 719 alpha, 81+8.1
Muninn:
(Faction EMP M) - 399 DPS, 3298 alpha, 23+22(O+F), 0.0371 tracking
(Tremor M) - 232 DPS, 1912 alpha 81+22(O+F)
Deimos:
(Faction AM M) - 405 DPS, 1422 alpha, 18+23(O+F), 0.02875 tracking
(Spike M) - 235 DPS, 824 alpha, 65+23(O+F)
Basicly deimos got 15% more alpha over zealot, about 2% better DPS than muninn, worst tracking, 20% less optimal. Changes will put it at 258 DPS and 1648 alpha(with spike M), still a lot less dps than zealot, worse alpha than muninn and worst tracking. 5% optimal instead of falloff per level will put deimos at 81km optimal with spike M on HAC V, which is exactly the same as muninn and zealot.
And this is all just ship recalibration itself, it will take them forever to get all the galent ships right fitting wise.On battlecruiser scale:
Ferox has 80% more optimal than Harbinger/ Hurricane
Harbinger has 70% more DPS and alpha than Ferox
Hurricane has 55% more DPS and 3,65x Ferox's alpha
Brutix has 20% more optimal than Harbi and Hurricane
Harbi has about 15% more DPS and about 9% more alpha than Brutix
Hurricane has 5% more DPS than brutix, about 2.5x Brutix's alpha
Rail Brutix will be pretty good compared to the others. Still pretty hard to fit, not that different than the deimos case.
Ferox desperately needs another turret tbh.
EDIT: And all this extra tracking is so that the gallente ships can hit at speed, something they desperately lack the ability to do right now, and at the speeds I'm talking about pushing them to they'd need.
Changing the rep bonus on some gallente ships to straight armor HP bonuses seems to be popular for some reason, but I disagree with it.
It would mean, first of all, that only buffer-fit Gallente fits would be viable, which makes the agility problem with blasterboats even worse when you have to fit a plate and 3 trimarks just to make use of the hull bonus. Secondly, the range of blasters makes them difficult to use in large fleets (because you have to burn over to every individual target) and thus they're relegated to solo stuff or very small gangs, where the potentially very hard active tank of rep-bonused gallente ships can make them lower-priority targets than buffer-fit ships, which helps counteract the usual "primary the dps" thing that often makes gallente less survivable.
People seem to think active tanking of any kind is dead, and it is for the most part, largely because fleets are simply larger than they used to be. But blaster/drone boats excel in tiny gangs and always will, and that's where active tanking is better. Even facing 800-900 incoming dps, a dualrep brutix with a 420 dps tank is still preferable to one with a 1600, as it'll survive longer and maybe even long enough to kill whatever's doing the damage.
But yeah I think to make gallente the small gang rapeboats of yore again, they need:
- A huge agility buff
- Larger capacitor or less cap use for blasters
- An increase to blaster tracking so you don't always have to fit a web
I can't think of much else that would make blasterboats more viable while keeping them in their seemingly intended niche of small gang/solo rapemachines. Gimmicky stuff like increased alpha for blasters doesn't strike me as a particularly useful buff, unless you're really concerned about ammo use.
I also had an idea for more expensive (~100k isk a pop) cap booster charges which, when used, would go back into your cargohold, where they would slowly recharge over maybe 15-20 minutes. I thought it would make cap-boosted locally-tanked ships more viable for long roams into hostile sov space (at least without a viator full of 800s following you around), a role almost exclusively occupied by buffer shield tanked ships.
But yeah that idea didn't really get any traction
Damnit all this talk makes me wish they'd hit the gallente first and then do supers later, I mean supers aren't EVER going anywhere at this point and the poor ass gallent ships have been utter shit since 2007-8
I agree, it locks the ships in as buffer tankers which is bad. Maybe resist bonuses or changing the the rep bonus to universal in/out/local/remote boost bonus would be useful, although it has the potential to make things like RR'd Hyperions scary as shit in fleet formations
Beams won't be crippled, they still have a lot more tracking(around 45%) now. And don'tforget the ridiculous bonuses the zealot has. You can have like 50 times more tracking, rails will still suck balls,having no alpha and hilarious DPS. The wholeidea is to make them middleground between the huge alpha and huge DPS. Because currently they are the middleground between having no alpha and no DPS at all. Projectiles have the worst tracking, yet they are the ones dominating the BS playground.
That's a super inelegant solution. The bonuses are the unique features of the ship, not a race wide thing needed to make the ships viable. You could add it as a 3rd bonus to all Gallente hulls but that's never going to happen.
Except you'll have to sacrifice a turret to fit the rep and the 8 guns is the only good thing about the hype. And it will still suck enormously,compared to 200k HP abaddon with ridiculous resists.
This iscomplete bullshit and you know it. Buffer fits are better, because they don't need cap and they can neut you to death. This is why the domi was a the king of 1v1 back in the days when it existed. Active tank is dead/gone/stupid, youmight find a situation where it's good, but there are 99% others,in which it's not. So yes, keep the bonus that is worthless 99% of the time. But yes, the dualrep brutix was a fine eample,respect for it. When was the last time you saw one killing something?It would mean, first of all, that only buffer-fit Gallente fits would be viable, which makes the agility problem with blasterboats even worse when you have to fit a plate and 3 trimarks just to make use of the hull bonus. Secondly, the range of blasters makes them difficult to use in large fleets (because you have to burn over to every individual target) and thus they're relegated to solo stuff or very small gangs, where the potentially very hard active tank of rep-bonused gallente ships can make them lower-priority targets than buffer-fit ships, which helps counteract the usual "primary the dps" thing that often makes gallente less survivable.
People seem to think active tanking of any kind is dead, and it is for the most part, largely because fleets are simply larger than they used to be. But blaster/drone boats excel in tiny gangs and always will, and that's where active tanking is better. Even facing 800-900 incoming dps, a dualrep brutix with a 420 dps tank is still preferable to one with a 1600, as it'll survive longer and maybe even long enough to kill whatever's doing the damage.
You know, a lot of people say this sort of thing; others run around in solo dualrep Ishtars raping small gangs, or jump dualrep Domis into BC/recon gatecamps and kill a whole bunch of things. Active Sleipnirs, brawler Claymores, and Maelstroms aren't that uncommon either. T3 links alts help a lot, but aren't essential.
As for dualrep Brutixes, can't remember the last time I saw one used well. Then again, solo Cyclones are kind of rubbish as well, and Feroxes/Prophecies are downright terrible; all tier 1 battlecruisers are pretty bad. On the other hand, I've seen plenty of dual/triple rep myrms killing shit, and dualrep Astartes as well.
I'm not saying everything's fine and dandy (far from it) but the situation is nowhere near as bad as you and many others make out.
[I]spherical monkey fears and envies[/I]
I think he meant that the Hype would be receiving reps, not necessarily fitting them. Assuming the numerical value of the bonuses stay the same (25% resist v 37.5% reps received) the Hype/Mael would end up with a very slight advantage in effective reps (2074 DPS per Guardian) over the Abaddon (2012 DPS per Guardian). Not something that will shake the foundations of fleet PVP to it's core, but still infinitely better than the current bonus (which is every bit as effective for fleets as the 4th bonus on AFs right now).
HUN73R if all you do is fleet fights, all you're going to see is fleet ships
I dunno if that's the case for you but if you haven't seen some dude in a dualrep myrm/domi/hype/ishtar stomp a gatecamp we're just not playing the same game
(I highlighted the funny part)
You all seem to want to gear gallente toward mid-to-large sized fleets, with RR and everything. I still don't see why anyone would want to do that, but anyway I disagree because:
- It would remove any uniqueness from gallente of being bonused toward solo/small gang pvp, while there are already tons of viable close-range fleet ships
- It would require a huge increase to blaster range, because as it is now, even with giving hyperions an armor HP bonus or an RR bonus or whatever people think will magically make them viable fleet ships, they're still just too close range to make any use of their DPS in a fleet fight. Buffing blaster range, again, would remove anything unique about blasters and make the three turret types even more homogeneous
The perception seems to be that there's something wrong with a race's niche being anything other than the ULTIMATE END-GAME 1000-MAN FLEET FIGHTS. Somehow everyone got the idea that the problem with gallente isn't that they're outclassed by minmatar ships in their intended role of solo/small-gang ships, it's that they can't effectively fight in big fleets.
I'm sorry, but are you both delusional, or are you taking some very strong drugs? Solo/small gang pvp? How much of the actual fights people find themselves into are those? 3%? 5%? You want to dedicate entire race to solo pvp, that hardly exists nowadays? Dualrep ishtars? Rofl, yeah, sure, in which universe? Dualrep domis? Maybe, in 2007. But guess what? Guess what...
There is no uniqueness in gallente. They suck. For everything. Intended of solo/small gank ships? I'm sorry,but are you retarded or something? A race intended for solo-pvp? Yeah, that sounds like EVE. That why minmatar are good on any scale,from 1v1 to 10v10, to 100v100.
basically what you are saying is gallente don'tneed shipsthat are good for fleets, because other races got that covered? If all you do is solo pvpallyou're going to want is solo-pvp ships. Sadly for you, the game is now more large fleet orientated than ever and most people seek a larger variety of tacticts, fleet compositions and different ships to surprise their enemies with and not fight abaddons against maelstroms every day. But fuck those fool, you, 3-5% that are the elite pvp-ers want an entire race for your own needs and CCP should respect that.
Dedicating an entire race to only solo pvp or only fleet fights for that matter, or only one role in general is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Maybe we should dedicate caldari to industry, fuck pvp at all?
Both of these. A hundred times, both of these.
I'm certainly not about making Gallente or active tanking viable in large fleets. I'd like pulse/autos to stop beating blasters at their own game, which currently happens far too much, unless you can force an at 0 setup in the fight. I'd also like them to be more viable in RR scenarios via the local tanking bonus turning into a equivalent resist bonus or amplification of RR received.You all seem to want to gear gallente toward mid-to-large sized fleets, with RR and everything. I still don't see why anyone would want to do that, but anyway I disagree because:
(snip)
The perception seems to be that there's something wrong with a race's niche being anything other than the ULTIMATE END-GAME 1000-MAN FLEET FIGHTS. Somehow everyone got the idea that the problem with gallente isn't that they're outclassed by minmatar ships in their intended role of solo/small-gang ships, it's that they can't effectively fight in big fleets.
Uh... maybe 20-25% of (active pvp'ing) players do solo/small gang stuff regularly and that was true for my alliance even back when I was in the NC. There is nothing :elitepvp: about it either, it's just a difference in preferred playstyle. And yes, I like that there are ships with bonuses and weapons geared for different scales of PvP. There is nothing inherently wrong in that.
Mfume Apocal - Origin. - Black Legion.
20-25% go roaming solo every night, right? Noone says there shouldn't be ships dedicated to small scale pvp. But every race needs it's fleet ships. It's ok to have myrms, domis, astartes, ishtars etc to be good at roaming/solo/small-scale pvp, I've had fun in all of them soloing shit, but where exactly is the problem of having megathron, hyperion, deimos, eos, brutix dedicated to fleet fights? It's what other races do, it works pretty good. What I want(and apparantly other people, believe it or not) is to have every race with a good ship for every possible situation. From solo-pvp to large scale 500 vs 500 battles. But you all seem to be convinced that gallente should be the kings of solo-pvp and suck at everything else.
Um
Bullshit.
If 20-25% of active PVP players went and did small gang or solo shit you wouldn't need to roam for hours solo before finding a fight, that shit would be on tap, on the regular.
Its not.
If 2% of the active PVP'rs in this game do solo or small gang every day I'd be shocked. I mean hell, I faced 200 canes last night and if even 4 of those dudes did small gang or solo pvp with any form of frequency I'd die of a heart attack.
I think you live in a dream world bro.
Not sure why you quoted me there since I didn't say that Gallente should be exclusively for solo or anything of the sort, just that active tanking is still used and that small-scale pvp is nowhere near as dead as a lot of people seem to believe. FWIW, i mentioned dualrep ishtars for a reason:
I think grath is about right with increasing (medium and large) rails' tracking along with giving them a slight DPS buff as a partial solution to Gallente woes. Ideally, they'd track only slightly worse than the corresponding size of blasters with null, giving a credible mid-long range pvp option. No need to touch small rails though - they're amazing for dogfighting (same goes for small hybrids in general, tbh).
edit: Grath, if you want to solo, go where people who like solo and small gang stuff hang out. Curse, Syndicate and the heavily traveled parts of lowsec all do pretty much provide small fights on tap. Same goes (to a lesser extent) for the Great Wildlands.
Might help to use an alt without the PL ticker, mind, because OMGOMGOMG it's PL I'm going to get hotdropped aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
[I]spherical monkey fears and envies[/I]
Among those who are active, and not necessarily solo, but small gangs (under 10 dudes), yes about 20-25%. I was under the impression that this was fairly standard among medium-gang and sov alliances.
Lachesis, tackle Proteus, arguably Oneiros. And if you go to cry, "but I can't do damage!" there are basically only two good non-Amarr fleet BSes, the Maelstrom and the Scorpion and only one of them does "damage." Even then, on paper, equal numbers, etc. Hellcats would straight shit all over any kind of Maelstrom I could theorycraft.What I want(and apparantly other people, believe it or not) is to have every race with a good ship for every possible situation. From solo-pvp to large scale 500 vs 500 battles. But you all seem to be convinced that gallente should be the kings of solo-pvp and suck at everything else.
Mfume Apocal - Origin. - Black Legion.
Let me tell you stories about jumping into a 20 man gate camp, thinking "Well shit there goes that Cynabal" only to watch all 20 dudes go to warp off while i wait out my timer.
I don't know that retarded Drake pilots shooting Kin missiles at an armor tanked Ishtar proves your point.
Grath himself posted a few months back about how PL habitually dropped supers on DarkSide's drake gangs and I think it was Wildside posting about how his idea of small gang was a bait ship and three Nyxes, so I'm not terribly sympathetic to the plight of "bloo bloo bloo, i cant get gudfitez becuz of my ticker!"
Average RAGE USTZ CTA was about 80 dudes, average number of dudes roaming or doing small-gang HD stuff was about 15-20. BL nightly roam is 50 dudes, the before and after fleets generally have 8-12.
People being dumb/bad at small gangs has nothing to do with the frequency of small gang fights. It's still a relevant point of balance, even if dudes who apparently stopped doing it don't think it is.
Mfume Apocal - Origin. - Black Legion.
Yea, your post was rhetorical, but sort through kills like this, and you'll see why. https://www.pandemic-legion.com/kill...=kills&start=0
[Arrador] possesses a considerable understanding of ship configurations, strengths and weakness. He gives clear and purposeful instructions, is good at taking advantage of the fleet-composition he's dealt, and never loses sight of the main goal: fun. This, paired with an excellent tolerance for strong drink gives him an almost Churchillian capability to win, despite being completely pissed on booze most of the fleet operation.
Well, it's not like that was the only fight in there (Ishtar v. Rapier + 2 canes; Ishtar v. drake/cane/harbi/stiletto/bombers; dualrep Domi vs. recons and machariel and nighthawk and stuff). Second, even though those guys in the first fight were retarded, they had enough DPS to break him even with kinetic missiles (8 drakes with OK-ish skills = 3000+ DPS; against pure kinetic, that ishtar only tanks 2k or so). Third, you kind of have to bet on stupid every time you engage a significantly bigger gang. I think it's fairly obvious that if there were a ship that allowed you to simultaneously fight and beat, say, five guys who were as good and well-skilled as you and were flying similar-class ships, that ship would be *hilariously* overpowered. Thankfully, 90+% of eve players are prone to making silly mistakes that you can capitalise on.
Mfume, I wasn't suggesting sympathy would necessarily be warranted or anything, just that as a practical matter it might not be the best ticker to have when soloing.
[I]spherical monkey fears and envies[/I]
I'm sorry, what game are we talking again? Oneiros? Tackle proteus? And the scorpion is a good fleet BS? How about the rokh? how about the tempest? Oh boy, I forgot that. Even the scorpion can be found useful in fleets. And how about the tengu, basilisk, drake, vulture? Where is the gallente counterpart for those? And how about geddon, abaddon, apoc, zealot, guardian, legion might not be that awesome,but atleast it has proper guns. And how about the maelstrom, tempest, hurri, claymore, vaga, muninn, loki, scimmitar, huginn?
And with all that, you say lachesis and tackle proteus? So that's like 1 reason(both are stuckwith only one typeof tank, so basically even remotely useless in only 50% of the time) to fly gallente for like 95% of the people(who rarely would find themselves in a fight smaller than 10v10). I see your point, I was so confused, but your really showed my the way.
EVE Online. Yeah, Oneiros. Yeah, Proteus.
erm...And the scorpion is a good fleet BS?
...
Even the scorpion can be found useful in fleets.
You asked for good Gallente fleet ships v0v. I gave three. I agree that blasters need lower fitting requirements, Gallente and Caldari blaster hulls in general could use a bit more agility, etc. What I don't agree with is "bloo bloo bloo, blasters suck balls in fleets!"And with all that, you say lachesis and tackle proteus? So that's like 1 reason(both are stuckwith only one typeof tank, so basically even remotely useless in only 50% of the time) to fly gallente for like 95% of the people(who rarely would find themselves in a fight smaller than 10v10). I see your point, I was so confused, but your really showed my the way.
No shit, so do autocannons and HAMs. Why try to make them all into pulse mk2?
Mfume Apocal - Origin. - Black Legion.
He was giving examples of Gallente ships you can use in large fleets. He even avoided using the ships that are of a specific utility, or largely mirrored across the races (SBs, CovOps, HICs). Gallente do have ships they can use in most situations. As long as the "situations" are overly specifc, IE "I want to fly a missile BC in a nano gang".
There is a differnce between the reasonable expection that hybrids and Gallente ships get looked at and boosted where need, and the impossible pipe dream of every race, being equally desired in every possible situation. Even if CCP did implement a massive round of buffs to all the unloved ships out there, the players on the cutting edge would still narrow it down to a handful of ships/tactics that are "the best" and set the tone for everyone else. EVE pvp is very much influenced by the FOTM and metagame aspects. A handful of groups/players are the forerunners for the majority in terms of what is "good" and what is "bad".
It's not fair to expect CCP to come up with a way to keep 100(?) some ships balanced on a knife-edge against each other in the face of actively evolving tactics and gameplay mechanics.
This right here is the jist of everything I tried to explain a page back. The only sense of balance would come if that became CCPs goal, which it is not. CCP doesnt want every ship the same, because it is boring. New players are astonished by the dept of eve. The weak are scared away. The rest of us see the challenge and want to respond. If real balance were the priority you would end up with weapons that looked different, but really are not different at all. And then its not as much fun or immersible. As much as some of you might crave perfection, or utopia, most, at least subconsciously want the exact opposite. We want angles that if known only to us might grant us an advantage over our competitor. Not cheats, tactical knowledge ect. If every ship was more alike, then tactics would be less important in a lot of ways. What fun is it if all your FC really needs to know about the enemy is the number, hull class, weapons range, tank.
Besides, your acual race means very little. You can train anything you want, and start on page 0 effectively. Quit bitching and train to fly everything. It only takes a couple of years. :/
It is pretty fair to expect a wholerace to have ships that are atleast as good as their counterparts in atleast few situations. I asked for a good ship and he gave me none. Oneiros sucks, that's why people use guardians. You can fly AFs in fleets, that doesn't change the fact you have to be braindead to do it(or IT). gallente are overshadowed by the other races in every possible situation, to the point where their ships see as much fights as the ORE ones. And that's because some poor fuck can't fly the better ones and is stuck with oneiros,mega or something like that while training for some ships that is not crap.
None of these is good, compared to it's counterparts. And you don't agree that blasters need to be changed, well some people think motherships are fine, others think sov is fine, I guess you are just one of those guys that just like tofeel like special snowflakes.You asked for good Gallente fleet ships v0v. I gave three. I agree that blasters need lower fitting requirements, Gallente and Caldari blaster hulls in general could use a bit more agility, etc. What I don't agree with is "bloo bloo bloo, blasters suck balls in fleets!"
No shit, so do autocannons and HAMs. Why try to make them all into pulse mk2?
Haha, this is ridiculous. So why have 10 ships that people want to fly, or 3 to choose from for a specific situation if u can have just one is what you are sying? There are too many ships in EVE, let's just leave one,make things so much easier. And why would anyone train to fly everything, when half ofit is not worth training? And what about the people that can fly everything for years now and are just bored with flying always the same shit as it has been FOTM for years?
You seem to be quite simple minded Hunter. You are unable to see or grasp the grander scope of things. Take a look around you. The even scale variety you seek just doesn't exist. The best cell phone is simple the best. The fastest car is the fastest. You have no choice in this matter, it simply is what it is.
Galente are not shit, I see them kill people all the time. Learn to fly differently would be my suggestion. Maybe the game changed and you stayed the same and lost touch. I had to learn to fly minis different after the changes. The vagabond piloting that yielded my 98% efficiency with over 100 kills did not work anymore. I eventually quit flying the ship. Others use the ship well, but I never took the time to relearn it. I don't complain, I just don't use it.
Learn to fly the ship you want to fly.
You are a fucking idiot to even try to say that gallente are in any kind of good shape.
Thats about as "is what it is" as it gets.
Fucking retard.
Quit crying and train ammar or minmatar
Rofl. You are an incredibly retarded creature and I'm struggling tou nderstand how you even learned how to operate the internets~
You fail to find the basic differences between a closed-environment internet spaceship game and a highly-competitive technology/automobile market.
I really doubt you posses any understanding of the world beyond your 23"or something monitor, but just to be clear, which is the best smartphone, and which is the fastest car? Please tell me.
Hey be nice to my alliance mate.
The Colorblind Angel of Kugutsumen - Turning Bad Country into Mad Country one post a time
He sounds... vexed.
"It pains me to say it but you are a good poster." - Vonq
I'm assuming he's trolling, because his name is vexer and he's writing frankly retarded shit. No one could be that pants on head tarded accidentally.
Notice the "T" in the middle of my name?
Its typical for those that lack understanding to attack those that try to present it. I'm not offended. I was merely speaking about the game in a broader sense. From an over all aspect if you will.
As for balance. Hybrids need help. But But as a whole, galente are fine as they are. Just help their weapons with a little more falloff. Maybe a small tracking boost.
Too many of you do not remember how over powered the Gallente were before the drone bandwidth nerf.
With that said please think about this statement.
What fun would the game be if every ship of every race was basically the same on a DPS graph when compared to the ships in its class? With every balance a little bit of Eve's diversity is absorbed by normalization. To have a top, you must have a bottom. For one to be great, another has to suffer. Eve is not a utopia.
I don't troll intentionally. I am however misunderstood quite often. My ability to explain what I am thinking in text is limited to say the least.
Nemesis worst bomber, Helios worst Covops, Damps = useless, Information Wf. Links = shit
It's not just Hybrids though they do truly suck. I've fitted Pulses, ACs and Arties on ships with no bonuses to them, but Hybrids... never
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