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Thread: Dev blog: Ship Balancing Summer Update

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    Default Dev blog: Ship Balancing Summer Update

    http://community.eveonline.com/devbl...log&nbid=72890

    Quote Originally Posted by CCP Ytterbium
    It has been a while since our last Dev Blog about ship balancing: we´ve hosted Fanfest 2012 and released Inferno in the time that's passed. We deployed the first batch of overhauled frigates with Inferno, collected a lot of player feedback and thus gained experience in the process.
    Now that we've had a good glimpse of how the new balancing system works in practice, we want to speed things up and deliver the following for winter.
    Heavy payload delivery

    As part of the effort that started with Inferno, we want to keep working on frigates as a whole; we are fairly satisfied with the iteration work we did on the Tormentor, Punisher, Merlin, Incursus, Rifter and time has come for the other hulls to receive the same amount of love. Here is a brief summary of our current vision:

    • Executioner, Condor, Atron, Slasher: role dedicated to fast interception with weapon systems that support it – in order, energy turrets, missiles, hybrid turrets, projectile turrets.
    • Navitas, Bantam, Burst: long range offensive platforms. The Navitas is being overhauled as a drone boat, a role currently lacking among tech 1 small hulls. The Bantam will replace the Merlin as the long range dedicated Caldari sniper. Finally, the Burst still is bit blurry at the moment – considered roles are mobile artillery platform, drone boat or a mix of both.
    • Inquisitor, Breacher, Kestrel, Tristan: missile based ships – tank, speed, damage will depend on the missile system they use. Two choices on that front, short range with rockets, or long range with light missiles. Race fighting philosophy will most likely dictate engagement range.
    • Magnate, Heron, Imicus, Probe: strengthening current roles as support frigates. Which mainly means scanning and possibly mini-profession operations, like hacking and codebreaking as well.
    • Crucifier, Griffin, Maulus, Vigil: truly refocus their roles as disruption frigates. The Cruficier is being changed to a mini-arbitrator (swapping useless turret capacitor use bonus for drone damage). The Griffin has a fine role already, but like the others, will receive a boost. The Maulus improvement consists of having a look at sensor dampening, which was nerfed too heavily in the past, and possibly making it rely more on drones than turrets. The Vigil could be the most combat oriented of the disruption frigates by improving its target painting bonus and creating synergy by coupling it with missiles.
    • Impairor, Ibis, Velator and Reaper: let’s not forget rookie ships, as they also are lacking at the moment. We want them to be very versatile ships, able to give new players a good taste of what their race ship philosophy is all about, without reaching the efficiency of other tech 1 frigates in any given role.

    Barge in on me

    Changing the mining frigates to have combat roles made us realize that we need something to replace them. Which lead us to realize how outdated mining barges are. That’s something we want to tackle over the course of the summer as well.
    Our goal is simple: each and every single mining barge (and their tech 2 variant) should have an appealing role, and not just be a stepping stone on the way to something better. Players should'nt only aim for the Hulk without considering anything else when doing some hard rock and roll mining. That means playing with the following variables:

    • Mining output: first and most visible balancing factor, plan is to increase all barge mining output to be within an acceptable margin of the Hulk, not miles behind as it is currently.
    • Autonomy: mining barges should have proper cargo holds so they not always have to rely on jet cans (without turning them into industrials however). That means giving them large, specialized ore bays where all the ore will automatically go into when mining.
    • Resilience: another point is to give some of them proper EHP not to be one-shot by anything that even remotely sneezes on them.

    As a result we thus get:

    • New ORE frig: we want this ship to replace current mining frigates as low barrier of entry vessel, but also fulfill high-end gameplay expectations by providing a very mobile platform for mining in hostile space. Lowest mining output, decent ore bay, little to no resilience.
    • Procurer/Skiff: primarily made for self-defense. Better mining rate than the ORE frig, good ore bay, but capable of having battleship-like EHP.
    • Retriever/Mackinaw: made for self-reliance. Has the largest ore bay, similear to the size of a jet can, second best mining output but less EHP than the procurer mining barge.
    • Covetor/hulk: ore bay is identical to its current cargo hold, little to average EHP, but best mining output. Basically made for group operations when players have industrials and protection to back them up.


    http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/62856/1/Ore_Frigate.jpg


    Concept schematics of the new ORE mining frigate - Click picture for full size version
    Before we forget, part of what players now call “tiericide” is to look at skill requirements. We are not pleased with how they work specifically with this ship class, since the Hulk is currently only a few hours away from the Covetor in terms of skill training. That is why, after the change, all tech 1 mining barges will now only require the Mining Barge Skill at level 1.
    We will most likely add the new ORE frigate skill at 4 as a Mining Barge nested prerequisite though, but remember our motto: if you could fly it before, you can fly it now.
    Due to how nested skill requirements work, players who already have the mining barge skill trained WON'T need to train the ORE frigate skill to keep flying their Covetor for example.
    Destroyer of Worlds

    Destroyers are the next ship class on our to-do list. We acknowledge that they were already tinkered with in Crucible, but they still need some love as a whole. We want to make sure they are balanced against each other before moving on, as the Thrasher and Catalyst seem to stand out over the Coercer and Cormorant as things stand.
    We also have another plan with destroyers: just like battlecruisers are used for gang warfare support, we are thinking to provide destroyers with an additional role. Since DUST514 is approaching and we want to forge both games into the same universe, they will receive some advantage for planetary bombardment, which should make them even more popular that they currently are.
    But wait, there is more. More ships that is, as we think the destroyer class currently is a little small with only four hulls. That is why we want to introduce new tech 1 destroyers to fill roles that are not yet covered – as such, Amarr / Gallente would receive additional drone boats, while Caldari / Minmatar would be more missile based.
    They rebelled, they evolved. They have a plan.

    So, when all of this is going out you ask? These changes will be out by the time the winter expansion hit, which will leave us in a very good shape to start overhauling tech 1 cruisers and battlecruisers next year, possibly earlier if things go well.
    As an additional note and a follow-up from our previous balancing Dev Blog, we believe it is good for you to know we will not be changing the Destroyer / Battlecruiser skills for the winter expansion – such changes are to come only after these two ship classes have been properly rebalanced.
    That’s it for now people, as usual, we will post feedback threads in Features & Ideas Discussion sub-forum to gather your input when the time comes, so don’t hesitate to drop by and post (constructive) feedback.


  2. #2
    Crashlander ente's Avatar
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    new destroyerhulls, fuck yeah. i dont know anything about mining so i cant tell if these changes make any sense but im SO looking forward to a dessie with a full flight of drones.

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    The Idiot Bastard Son Richter Belmont's Avatar
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    Mining barges were long overdue for an overhaul.

    I'd also love to play with some new missile-based destroyers too :3

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    Don't try to solve serious matters in the middle of the night Rer's Avatar
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    Good changes are good. :CCP:

    Hell maybe we'll see more 0.0 miners now that they'll actually have eHP that doesn't instantly disappear.
    Spaceship friends don't let other spaceship friends madpost.

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    Buffs, to my cormorant?
    [Arrador] possesses a considerable understanding of ship configurations, strengths and weakness. He gives clear and purposeful instructions, is good at taking advantage of the fleet-composition he's dealt, and never loses sight of the main goal: fun. This, paired with an excellent tolerance for strong drink gives him an almost Churchillian capability to win, despite being completely pissed on booze most of the fleet operation.

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    Don't try to solve serious matters in the middle of the night Rer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arrador View Post
    Buffs, to my cormorant?
    Miracles can happen. :sun:
    Spaceship friends don't let other spaceship friends madpost.

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    God is dead. They found his carcass in 2019.. jimmychrist's Avatar
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    So the entire t1 line will take them two years or so to rebalance at this rate? I'm fucking impressed. Are you impressed? I'm very impressed.

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    Don't try to solve serious matters in the middle of the night Rer's Avatar
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    Better than Incarna, and faster than the US Congress vOv
    Spaceship friends don't let other spaceship friends madpost.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jimmychrist View Post
    So the entire t1 line will take them two years or so to rebalance at this rate? I'm fucking impressed. Are you impressed? I'm very impressed.
    Not [s]killing[/s] pleasing us fast enough

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    Sincerely and lovingly, Securitas's Avatar
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    "The Griffin has a fine role already, but like the others, will receive a boost."

    TASHA is pleased.
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    God is dead. They found his carcass in 2019.. Hilmar Keller's Avatar
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    Sounds pretty good all around, although I lol'd here:
    We want to make sure they are balanced against each other before moving on, as the Thrasher and Catalyst seem to stand out over the Coercer and Cormorant as things stand.
    I'm just guessing that they'll be giving the Coercer a second mid slot and the Corm a second low. Whoop de doo.

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    Sincerely and lovingly, Securitas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilmar Keller View Post
    Sounds pretty good all around, although I lol'd here:
    I'm just guessing that they'll be giving the Coercer a second mid slot and the Corm a second low. Whoop de doo.
    Just because it's not a complex solution doesn't mean it's not the best one. Those slot additions are exactly what the Coercer and Cormorant need to make them competitive.
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    God is dead. They found his carcass in 2019.. Hilmar Keller's Avatar
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    Coercers are fine, though.

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    Sincerely and lovingly, Securitas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilmar Keller View Post
    Coercers are fine, though.
    Any ship that can't fit prop and tackle is definitely not fine. Especially because the Coercer is definitely not a "fleet ship."
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    The Theory and Practice of Time Travel Kitty Vintner's Avatar
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    Advance Romance Elektrea's Avatar
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    I'm glad to see the barge changes, long overdue. Fake edit: I didn't read all the barge changes, holy shit these sound good.
    [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/QmauB.gif[/IMG]

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    God is dead. They found his carcass in 2019.. Quesa's Avatar
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    Picture that was in the dev-blawg. SO makes me want to download Homeworld again. (i miss that game)


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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty Vintner View Post
    Grats on killing that pants-on-head retard. You still need tackle to keep most people with an IQ above 60 from warping off.

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    God is dead. They found his carcass in 2019.. Hilmar Keller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le'Blob View Post
    Grats on killing that pants-on-head retard. You still need tackle to keep most people with an IQ above 60 from warping off.
    You should take a look at the Solo PVP thread and see all the stories of own and dunking with the Coercer, it's an incredibly capable PVP ship despite not having a point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilmar Keller View Post
    Sounds pretty good all around, although I lol'd here:
    I'm just guessing that they'll be giving the Coercer a second mid slot and the Corm a second low. Whoop de doo.
    I'm fine with both of those things.

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    God is dead. They found his carcass in 2019.. Malcanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elektrea View Post
    I'm glad to see the barge changes, long overdue. Fake edit: I didn't read all the barge changes, holy shit these sound good.
    The best thing about the barge changes is that they're leaving the Hulk pretty much as it is. So all the idiots bawwing now about how fragile the Hulk is and OMG CCP this 1.5m ISK catalyst raped my 300M totally untanked mining barge FIX DIS NAOW will continue to do so.

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    Inconstant Moon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilmar Keller View Post
    You should take a look at the Solo PVP thread and see all the stories of own and dunking with the Coercer, it's an incredibly capable PVP ship despite not having a point.
    I've flown the coercer myself and, yes you may kill retards, but you will do that regardless. When you actually fight against someone who has a brain, you will need a point so they don't just warp off. I guess I shouldn't be surprised I would have to explain this but cmon

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    The Mote in God's Eye Prodnovick's Avatar
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    Not being pointed was easy to miss in the overview but with the new ewar status thingie you have to be pretty bad not to notice.

  24. #24
    The Theory and Practice of Time Travel Kitty Vintner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le'Blob View Post
    I've flown the coercer myself and, yes you may kill retards, but you will do that regardless. When you actually fight against someone who has a brain, you will need a point so they don't just warp off. I guess I shouldn't be surprised I would have to explain this but cmon
    You think retards are in short supply or something?

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    King Dong ihaveahelmet's Avatar
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    Well, he was responding to one so I hope not.

    Also ITT Elektrea gets his miner swagger back.

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    Monalisa Overdrive Mfume's Avatar
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    "Vigil could be the most combat oriented of the disruption frigates by improving its target painting bonus and creating synergy by coupling it with missiles."

    Overall I like the changes, but the part I quoted doesn't really make sense, unless they plan on re-working frig rockets to rely on a target painter. As it is, there are precious few situations outside of EFT where you need thesig boost using rockets (or standard missiles, I'm guessing).
    Mfume Apocal - Origin. - Black Legion.

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    King Dong ihaveahelmet's Avatar
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    torp vigil

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    God is dead. They found his carcass in 2019.. Hilmar Keller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ihaveahelmet View Post
    torp vigil
    MAKE IT SO NUMBER ONE

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    God is dead. They found his carcass in 2019.. Malcanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ihaveahelmet View Post
    torp vigil
    Vigil with one unbonused torp launcher and a TP bonus... I want it so much

  30. #30
    Galactic Pot-Healer Dental Floss's Avatar
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    Am I the only one who wishes they would stop worrying about frigs and destroyers and focus on the things that matter (drake rebalance and technetium) and have been making the game stale for years?
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    Monalisa Overdrive Mfume's Avatar
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    Different devs are working on different things. And they've (silently) backed away from a Drake "rebalance."
    Mfume Apocal - Origin. - Black Legion.

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    Advance Romance Elektrea's Avatar
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    I do believe the moon rebalancing is still happening, are they not working on the 'active moon mining' they hinted at a little bit ago? Too many fucking dev blogs
    [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/QmauB.gif[/IMG]

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    Don't try to solve serious matters in the middle of the night StevieTopSiders's Avatar
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    There was a dev forum post found FHC somewhere, in which CCP said they would be holding off on ring-mining in favor of POS rework for the winter expansion. They did claim, however, that they would consider alchemy.

  34. #34
    Galactic Pot-Healer Dental Floss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StevieTopSiders View Post
    There was a dev forum post found FHC somewhere, in which CCP said they would be holding off on ring-mining in favor of POS rework for the winter expansion. They did claim, however, that they would consider alchemy.
    That is exactly the kind of shit I'm talking about. Who the fuck cares about T1 frigs and destroyers when CCP has let an isk faucet stay open for over 2 years now that makes even collective effort toward the construction of titans completely invalidated and apparently doesn't think it's enough of a priority that it's nbd to put it on the back burner for another 6 months. And don't get me started on the drake rebalance -- they've been talking about that since PL, Initiative, CO2, and Dead Terrorists were in Impass and Feythabolis 2 years ago.
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    The Mote in God's Eye Prodnovick's Avatar
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    I'm pretty sure Soundwave mentioned he wants to make ALL moon goo in alchemy, like the r64s. This way they don't have to do a carefull rebalance of the demand and any moons that become good/useless will be working as intended. If they follow the same logic as with the r64s some r4 will be worth 1/5 of tech.

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    Monalisa Overdrive Mfume's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dental Floss View Post
    That is exactly the kind of shit I'm talking about. Who the fuck cares about T1 frigs and destroyers when CCP has let an isk faucet stay open for over 2 years now that makes even collective effort toward the construction of titans completely invalidated and apparently doesn't think it's enough of a priority that it's nbd to put it on the back burner for another 6 months. And don't get me started on the drake rebalance -- they've been talking about that since PL, Initiative, CO2, and Dead Terrorists were in Impass and Feythabolis 2 years ago.
    They've said before that we're not going to have any sort of heads-up on the moongoo rebalancing. And the guys doing ship balancing aren't working on moongoo. I seriously hope the programmers that would be doing the POS rework aren't the same guys doing moon-goo rebalancing. Because that would wind up with 350k p/u Cadmium or some other dumb shit like that. It's a seriousface math problem apparently and doing it right is going to take a whole different skillset.
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    Advance Romance Elektrea's Avatar
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    I know the moongoo and pos rework might be more important, but at least they are giving t1 a look at. At least they are not adding a fucking t4 or more t3's. I think there is a lot more room to expand and revitalize pvp with more t1 hulls or even rebalancing. I'm tired of seeing uniform fleets of a single ship type.
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    A typical nullsec fleet has medium-long range dps ships, logi, recons and tackle. The rebalancing will hopefully mix up the dps core of the fleets a bit. I'm tired of maelstroms and abaddons. PL is succesfully using the rokh now so we really need a gallente battleship with a viable tank/dps ratio.

    Mixed fleets are a thing of the past unless you mean different groups working together, each in their own doctrine. Those fights can be very fun but you need reliable allies that don't run when they are taking losses. Up north CFC usually bring maels and drakes and fights against a mix of abbadons, T3 snipers, evoke drakes and IRC alpha fleet. They get dumpstered a lot but when strategic goals are on the line the close alliance of the CFC usually pulls trough because they all fight till they are all dead and reship.

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    God is dead. They found his carcass in 2019.. Quesa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elektrea View Post
    I know the moongoo and pos rework might be more important, but at least they are giving t1 a look at. At least they are not adding a fucking t4 or more t3's. I think there is a lot more room to expand and revitalize pvp with more t1 hulls or even rebalancing. I'm tired of seeing uniform fleets of a single ship type.
    Highly doubt we'll see a shift from the "single-ship fleet doctrines" unless they aggressively change the way the weapon sizes damage ships according to sig rad. Even then it will be hard to mix things up because there will always be that threshold where single-ship doctrines win out due to min-maxing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prodnovick View Post
    Up north CFC usually bring maels and drakes and fights against a mix of abbadons, T3 snipers, evoke drakes and IRC alpha fleet. They get dumpstered a lot but when strategic goals are on the line the close alliance of the CFC usually pulls trough because they all fight till they are all dead and reship.
    In the end, it's all about numbers.

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    I kind of doubt there'll be any technetium rebalance. If there were, large power blocs would just hop into the next resource bottleneck and things would continue as they were. That's part of the game economy, working as intended, etc.

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    They don't need to nerf tech, providing an additional source through ring mining or alchemy would act as a bleed valve, ring mining would release moon mins onto the market from a source other than moons. If it's done right it won't be a massive volume of goo and would be based on rarity, shifting the focus back on to the better distributed R64 for warfare.

    Likewise, Alchemy would establish a ceiling price for tech - if the price is pushed above what is profitable through alchemy then the market should rebalance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kristoffon View Post
    I kind of doubt there'll be any technetium rebalance. If there were, large power blocs would just hop into the next resource bottleneck and things would continue as they were. That's part of the game economy, working as intended, etc.
    I think the idea is to remove the bottleneck, or at least make the bottleneck dynamic enough that this strategy of hopping from one bottleneck to the next becomes impractical.

    And I don't see it stifling conflict because when your neighbor's grass is greener you're still gonna want that lawn.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quesa View Post
    Even then it will be hard to mix things up because there will always be that threshold where single-ship doctrines win out due to min-maxing.
    Exactly. It's much less a question of game mechanics in this case than it is one of player mentality having evolved. Although if there's one thing I'd like to see revitalized it's the notion of anti-support.

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    CCP's general method of operation has been to progressively remove floors and ceilings in general. Insurance baskets, pax ammaria, NPC suppliers, and lots else have been shifted to make sure there's no real floor or ceiling to items in the market except that which the market sets itself.

    There's nothing theoretically stopping tech getting to 500k a unit, or trading at 100 isk/unit, except market forces.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
    CCP's general method of operation has been to progressively remove floors and ceilings in general. Insurance baskets, pax ammaria, NPC suppliers, and lots else have been shifted to make sure there's no real floor or ceiling to items in the market except that which the market sets itself.

    There's nothing theoretically stopping tech getting to 500k a unit, or trading at 100 isk/unit, except market forces.
    There's also no way to increase the supply beyond a certain point, and it's certainly feasible for the entire supply of Tech to be under the arbitrage of a single entity. Few things (minerals, mods, ships, even exotic dancers) in EVE are like this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihaveahelmet View Post
    Exactly. It's much less a question of game mechanics in this case than it is one of player mentality having evolved. Although if there's one thing I'd like to see revitalized it's the notion of anti-support.
    I really think the only way this will happen is if they change the way weapon sizes do damage to the target sig radii. There was a fantastic post, a couple of years ago, about changing the way the different tiers of weapons, aka. Mega Pulse vs. Dual Heavies etc etc, hit and damage different sizes of ship hulls.

    Essentially, Mega Pulses would be fantastic against BS and larger while being less effective vs BC and almost useless to anything smaller.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quesa View Post
    I really think the only way this will happen is if they change the way weapon sizes do damage to the target sig radii. There was a fantastic post, a couple of years ago, about changing the way the different tiers of weapons, aka. Mega Pulse vs. Dual Heavies etc etc, hit and damage different sizes of ship hulls.

    Essentially, Mega Pulses would be fantastic against BS and larger while being less effective vs BC and almost useless to anything smaller.
    I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the missile damage system is better than the turret system and should be used as a model. I mean, missiles don't give two shits about transversal, but sig radius is important as is velocity. Missiles also benefit from support (target painters) much more than turrets do; I'd like to see this changed such that target painters are almost mandatory for a BS fleet engaging any smaller-class fleet comp.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilmar Keller View Post
    I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the missile damage system is better than the turret system and should be used as a model. I mean, missiles don't give two shits about transversal, but sig radius is important as is velocity. Missiles also benefit from support (target painters) much more than turrets do; I'd like to see this changed such that target painters are almost mandatory for a BS fleet engaging any smaller-class fleet comp.
    Actually, I'm somewhat of the opposite opinion. I think stuff like webs and painters should be even less effective due to DR where only a couple of webs are actually worth dropping onto a target, same with painters. If someone wants to affect the speed of ships to a greater degree, you can use a scrambler.

    Increasing the disparity between signature resolutions of turrets and the signature radii of the different hull sizes would have a far better result than anything else.

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    I'm somewhere halfway between Hilmar and Quesa.

    I do like that the missile system values sig radius as much as velocity. The fact that the turret %-to-hit equation ignores sig radius at low transversal is pretty retarded IMHO. And, on the other side of it, once you're up to a certain minimum speed, sig radius gives a better incremental improvement than more velocity. (This is a wordy way of saying "fuck 100MN AB cruisers, buff Halos".)

    On the other hand, I do like the hit-table mechanic that the gun system uses. Namely, that as your %-to-hit drops, it removes the highest quality hits first, so you lose your ability to alpha, in addition to the expected drop in effective DPS. However, it also gives you a chance to do a good chunk damage with every shot, compared with missiles' "I'll hit you every time, but it barely counts as a tickle." An interceptor can lazily set automatic orbit on a Drake, and get shot by it, and not even come close to peak regen; the same inty has to be really cagey when trying to hold down a Cane, or a Talos or Vaga.

    Sadly, I don't have a good medium between the two.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quesa View Post
    Increasing the disparity between signature resolutions of turrets and the signature radii of the different hull sizes would have a far better result than anything else.
    THIS. So much this.

    (And while we're at it, fix the acceleration/deceleration times for entering and exiting warp. The fact that my inty goes 13AU/sec in warp means fuck all if I never actually reach that speed.)

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