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Thread: EVE-O-Nomics - wat is isk sink??

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    Default EVE-O-Nomics - wat is isk sink??

    Seems some people are getting more interested in this with the new changes coming and whatnot, and there seems to be some confusion on it and a desire to not litter other threads with this stuff. So here's a breakdown of some of the economics of EvE, in three parts:

    1) Sinks and Faucets
    2) Inflation, Deflation, and Mudflation
    3) Supply and Demand (and why it's not x-flation)
    4) Opportunity Cost

    I'm sure there's more shit to add here, but that's all i feel like writing.

    1) Sinks and Faucets

    Sinks and Faucets are a common terminology when discussing how ISK enters and leaves the game. First, it is important to note that it is NOT how it comes to a player, but how it comes into being (or disappears) from the net holdings of the entire game. Second, it is also very important to note that while the conversation always revolves around ISK, Asset sinks and faucets are equally important in understanding the effect on the economy of EvE. Between ISK and Assets only a single item is not included, PLEX.


    ISK Faucets

    Rat Bounties - By and far the largest ISK faucet in the game. IIRC it comes out as almost 5 times all of the other faucets combined

    NPC Buy Orders - Things like Overseers Effects, or any of the other many items that have a consistent NPC buy order up for them. Through this special Faucet is the route through which wormholes, a place with no bounties, can actually operate as an ISK faucet.

    Ship Insurance - Any time a ship is destroyed Insurance is paid out to the person that lost their ship. While this is coupled to an asset loss it is effectively an ISK faucet. It is, however, a special type as you will see below in the discussion of inflation.

    Mission Rewards - Self explanatory

    Alliance Tournament/One time things - Self explanatory, not that big


    ISK Sinks

    Far more interesting

    Skillbooks - iirc this is the largest ISK sink in EvE.

    Blueprints - Another large ISK sink. This one will go through the fucking roof whenever a new ship type is introduced.

    Loyalty Point Store - This one is non-obvious, but it is actually a significant ISK sink. Any time an item is purchased from the LP store some quantity of ISK is put into it as well.

    NPC Sell Orders (other) - Beyond Skillbooks and Blueprints there are still a number of NPC sell orders out there. Before the introduction of PI this was a major ISK sink, not so much anymore.

    Account bannings - I don't know if numbers have been released for this but I would be surprised if this was not a LARGE amount.

    Taxes & Fees - This covers all sorts of taxes (like sell/buy taxes) and fees (brokers fees, production/station industry fees, alliance fees, or office rentals), and other shit like clones. Surprisingly less significant than you would think.

    Account Deactivation - A bit of a strange one since it may technically be understood as a liability, but there are (obviously) a large % of players that deactivate their accounts that will never come back.



    Asset Faucets

    Rat Loot - All the shit that rats drop all over eve.

    Mining - Ice, rocks, gas, moons. All that shit.

    Planetary Interaction - Click click click click

    NPC Sell Orders - See above

    Salvaging - Hold the fleet while I salvage this shit (I've done this when FCing).

    LP Store/Mission Rewards - See above, the flip side of the coin.

    Microtransactions/Aurum store - Relatively insignificant (thankfully), but worth noting for reasons given below.


    Asset Sinks

    Destruction - This is why EvE is better than any other MMO in existence. Shit goes boom.

    NPC Buy Orders - Really not sure if this one counts (here or above) since really the truth is that items that are bought by NPC's are effectively a currency. Still worth mentioning them since some of them are used in manufacturing.

    Fuel/Charges/Ammo - When you shoot your gun, jump your titan, or fuel your POS something dissapears out of the game forever.

    Account Bans - I am quite sure that this is a significant sink in EvE.

    Abandoned Assets - Kind of a strange one. Look at your asset list. If you have assets in less than 200 systems then you are a better man than I gungadin. I have assets in systems that I will NEVER access. Sometimes this is because there is 1 asset out in the middle of nowhere, sometimes it's because it's in a station I don't have access to. This one may not be appropriate but I'm including it anyways.

    ------------------


    2) Inflation, Deflation, and Mudflation

    Getting an exact definition for inflation or deflation is a great reminder of why Economics is more of a liberal art than a science. I'm not going to sweat too much about these definitions, and you shouldn't either. They're close enough. These terms can be understood in the net flow of ISK and Assets, they are dependent on the ISK and Asset faucets that are listed above.

    Inflation
    (ISK/Asset Increases)

    Reduction in the buying power of a currency. In terms of the faucets, this ISK/Asset flow ratio increasing. If there are 10 domi's on market and we all want one and have 100 million ISK, it will fetch a lower price than if we all had 1 billion ISK. It is important to note that both the RATE of flow, the RATE OF CHANGE of flow, and the current SUPPLY of ISK/Asset is important in determining this. It's basically the same thing as Position vs Velocity vs Acceleration. Who says you would never need calculus?

    Think of this in terms of a change like, say, reducing the flow of drone alloys into the game while also increasing the flow of ISK into the system. This is an inflationary action.

    Another interesting example of this is in Insurance scams. Here you have an act that directly converts Assets to ISK, which takes part of the Asset faucet and turns it into an ISK faucet. This is another inflationary action.


    Deflation
    (ISK/Asset Decreases)

    An increase in the buying power of a currency. In terms of the faucets, the ISK/Asset flow ration is decreasing. This may not seem that common, but it does happen (or certain actions push this way) somewhat often.

    Consider the SP handout from the Incursion patch, or the recent introduction of the Tr3 BCs. In both cases you had a MASSIVE one time push of a reduction of ISK and an increase in Assets. In both cases the market saw a bit of a deflationary shift (although it was a bit insignificant.)

    Also consider Microtransactions. As they stand they are effectively insignificant to the system, but they operate by introducing another flow Assets to the game. If this flow was large enough it would cause deflation.


    Mudflation
    (Isk/Asset flow is Constant, ISK/Asset/Per Capita increases)

    Mudflation is a very special beast, something that doesn't really exist in the real world (except through the progress of civilization), but is very VERY important in MMOs. In a basic sense Mudflation can be understood as a reduciton in "real world value" of BOTH ISK and Assets. Consider this example. Let's say that right now every player had 3 titans and 1 trillion ISK and were able to generate ISK and assets at a rate to replace both of those easily, but the price of Titans was still 80 Billion ISK. This is neither Inflation* or Deflation, it is another beast alltogether.

    Mudflation is caused by an increase in the total SUPPLY of ISK/Assets, without actually changing the ratio. If the flow rate of both ISK and Assets were increased in game in a way that maintained the current ratio you would see Mudflation.

    Now, the question is, how do you determine "real world value"? Consider, if you will, the dominix. 4 years ago a Dominix cost you (more or less) 50 million ISK. Today (before the recent mineral changes) that same Dominix would cost you (more or less) the same 50 million ISK. But would you, as a person, value it the same? Now I want you to think of another item, one we haven't talked about so far. The PLEX. PLEX is a unique item that actually links real world currency to the game. Hopefully you can see where I am going at this point.

    4 years ago a PLEX would net you 100 million ISK (I think). 15$ buys you 2 Domi's. 2 years ago a PLEX will get you 250 million ISK. 15$ buys you 5 Domi's. Now, 1 PLEX will net you 500 million ISK. 15$ buys you 10 Domi's.

    That's mudflation.

    Ironically, even though the real world version of mudflation is essentially the progress of mankind, mudflation has some severely negative effects on EvE, one of them being that the consequence driven nature of the game is threatened by the reduction of value of the items within it. It is also the reason that CCP HAS to balance, not just through increasing rewards, but also by reducing them. Dr. E may (he does) pat himself on the back for how well he has managed inflation and deflation in EvE. But when it comes to Mudflation, arguably the most dangerous of the 3, EvE has not done well at all. That said, it's at least done much better than any other MMO, where Mudflation isn't even in the realm of maneagable.

    -------------------------

    The reason that the Sinks and Faucets of EvE are so VITALLY important to understand is that they directly result in the previous 3 effects. Without understanding the true nature of the faucets and sinks you wouldn't appreciate that doing something like removing all of the macro-miners from EvE may have the exact OPPOSITE effect as something like removing all of the null-sec anom-botters.


    *Before I said that Mudflation is different than Inflation and Deflation. If you want to get super technical (ie Douchebag) you can argue that Mudflation is actually a form of Inflation, or, you can argue that it's a supply/demand thing. In a way it's both to some degree or another. But it doesn't really matter and you're a douchebag for getting hung up on it.


    3) Supply, Demand, and why they aren't x-flation

    I took an Engineering Economics course from one of the dumbest professors I have ever had the displeasure of knowing last year. He admitted that he failed economics twice as an undergrad, and it was blatantly obvious by one of the things he said. He likes to get on his high-horse about politics at the beginning of every class, and during this class he decided to start talking about Oil. According to him, the recent increase in the price of Oil was an obvious indicator of the inflation being caused by the Fed's recent actions.

    This is not just wrong, it's stupid. There is a reason why inflation is monitored by indexes, and not individual items, and this is why. In this case, oil prices have increased due to decreases in supply due to the Arab Spring as well as increases in demand due to the modernization of the 3rd world. It could be the case that some of the change is caused by inflation, but trying to draw a clear correlation between the two is like extrapolating how many times you will be married in your life based on your honeymoon and the week leading up to it (nod to XKCD).

    The reason this matters is that it's important to know that prices in EvE are not always an indicator of inflation/deflation. They are far more often a result of Supply/Demand changes. Take the current, and very large, increase in mineral prices. Is that inflation? No. That's a reduction of supply in the face of a static demand. Was the increase in the price of Tech after the dominion patch inflation? No, that was an increase in demand in the face of a static supply.

    Each of those changes represent major changes in the prices of a small part of the overall market. Inflation/deflation affects the ENTIRE market. That said, I do not disagree that the shift in the drone regions may cause inflation, but it really depends on how much ISK is removed through the overall reduction of bounties.

    Anyways, I'm not going to go into all the nitty gritty of supply/demand, I just wanted to impress that it's important to know that price changes in sectors of the market are often caused by supply/demand, and that inflation/deflation affects the entire market as a whole.

    Note: If you want to get really technical about it Inflation is actually caused by supply/demand in the money supply. But, yet again, it doesn't really matter and you're a douchebag for getting hung up on it.




    4) Opportunity Cost

    Opportunity cost is a non-obvious cost incurred when choosing between two mutually exclusive actions. If you can do either A or B, and you do A, you incur an opportunity cost of B. If you have two investment options, one that earns 6% and another that earns 8%, choosing the 6% option incurs an opportunity cost of 8%, creating a net loss due to opportunity cost of 2%. Seems incredibly obvious, so why the fuck am I mentioning it? Well first off Op Cost needs to be further broken down into two sub-sections, the Op Cost of Money, and the Op Cost of Time.


    Money

    Op Cost has some less obvious implications, in the real world and in EvE. The most commonly talked about example of op cost in EvE is the example of mining. If I mine it, it is free. This is incorrect. This is because you have multiple choices as to what to do with the minerals and those need to be taken into account. Let's say you mine enough minerals to build a Maelstrom. The market will pay you 160 mil ISK for those minerals. This creates an Op Cost that defines the value of your minerals (160 mil). Now, if you were to compare that construction price determined through OP cost to the market price of the Maelstrom (in this case 150 mil ISK), you would see that building your own Maelstrom to use incurs a net loss due to Op Cost of 10 mil ISK (150 - 160). This means that, effectively, you are LOOSING 10 million ISK.

    Here's another, less obvious example. Let's say that you have been purchasing advanced building materials with buy orders for something you wanted to build for a while. These materials (unlike minerals) will move in both the buy and sell orders. Let's say you have pulled in 100 Mil in building materials. The market shows that the item you want to build sells for 120 mil. This is a 20 million ISK profit. However, there is another possibility. What if you sell the building materials back to the market? Based on the buy/sell order margin you can see that the building materials would sell back for 130 million ISK. This means that, while profitable, building the downstream product would actually incur a 10 mil net loss due to Op Cost.


    Time


    Time is as much of a limited resource in EvE as money is, and therefore it is also worth considering for Op Cost. Here are some examples.

    -You can either run a series of missions that earns you 100 mil ISK/hour, but requires some active participation on your part, or you can AFK mine and earn 50 mil/hour and go watch Game of Thrones. The monetary OP cost of choosing the second is 50mil ISK/hour. However the time Op Cost of choosing the first is watching Game of Thrones.

    -You have 300 order slots to update. Your buddy calls and says that they are going out drinking in 10 minutes and they can swing by to pick you up. You can either go to the bar and have "good-times", or you can update all of your orders. Additionally if you do choose to go out to the bar with your buddies, you have 10 minutes. In that 10 minutes you will only be able to update 30 orders. Each order you choose to update incurs an Op Cost of those you did NOT choose.

    -Your Tech moon is coming out of reinforced tonight. An old college flame of yours, who was always down for a good round of the old "in-out" is coming by with her hot ass friend and and they want to drop some tabs and model lingerie to you. WHAT DO YOU DO.


    ------

    An important note on Op cost is that the reality is that there are at any given moment millions of possible actions you could choose between, and technically each of these choices incurs it's own massive set of Op Costs. Therefore it's ultimately impossible to fully evaluate every OP cost given at any point in time. Really, the whole exercise is to simply make you understand that choices have alternatives, and it's important to think of them.
    And in case you were wondering about the last choice, the answer is that you go and bag her and end up with AIDS. But it was still the right choice because Op Cost is determined based only on the information known at the time.

  2. #2
    The Ethics of Madness Iratus's Avatar
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    I'm trying to think of something you didn't cover, so I can make a comment, but I can't.

    Good job, this should be useful to end stupid threads about inflation. Now, if we could do the same thing to titan-nerfing...
    [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/hChYV.png[/IMG]

    "Every rifter counts friend" - VR

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    God is dead. They found his carcass in 2019.. Hilmar Keller's Avatar
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    This is very well done, thank you.

    Does anybody know if insurance payouts inflate with mineral prices or ship prices? Or are they static?

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    God is dead. They found his carcass in 2019.. Some Market Dude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilmar Keller View Post
    Does anybody know if insurance payouts inflate with mineral prices or ship prices? Or are they static?
    It's been based on a mineral basket for...two years now?...at least one.

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    God is dead. They found his carcass in 2019.. Hilmar Keller's Avatar
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    Is it a delayed calculation? Is it based on current market orders or a daily/weekly/monthly sell/buy average? Need deets m8.

    E: Ah fuck it I'll look it up.

    E2:
    Insurance payout values are dynamic (effective since the release of Tyrannis). This means in short that you can choose to insure your ship at a price where the payout will be calculated at the time of the ship loss based on the (then) current market prices and the type of ship you were flying at the time.
    What this means is that after every set insurance period, an index will be created calculating the trimmed average values for all building materials that are used in the building of ships (minerals, T2 and T3 components) and when a ship is destroyed, this index will be used to calculate the full replacement value of that ship based on the materials required to build it. The player will then receive an amount of ISK that is defined by the:
    (value of the ship according to the index) * (percentage of insurance coverage) * (ship type multiplyer)
    The ship type multiplier is used to make some ships more expensive to lose then others. For example; a Tier 1 battleship will have a multiplier of 1, therefore receiving the full benefit of the type of insurance bought, but a Titan may have a multiplier of 0.01, thus only granting a fraction of the insurance value. This change will allow insurance to scale along with changes in the market and is meant (among other things) to minimize the risk of insurance fraud.

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    God is dead. They found his carcass in 2019.. Some Market Dude's Avatar
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    My next to valueless guess is monthly...I seem to remember that being mentioned, but it could easily be fantasy.

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    Don't try to solve serious matters in the middle of the night Viribus's Avatar
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    So this means that if I mine my own minerals, my ships are free?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Viribus View Post
    So this means that if I mine my own minerals, my ships are free?
    That fundamental truth has never and will never change.

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    God is dead. They found his carcass in 2019.. Hilmar Keller's Avatar
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    It also means that if you have enough ISK you could theoretically buy up the mineral market until Trit's selling for 20 apiece, then swing a few dozen unfitted T1 BS into an incursion and make bank on the payout. Of course, if you've got the means to buy up the Jita mineral market like that, you could probably do a lot better than insurance fraud.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Viribus View Post
    So this means that if I mine my own minerals, my ships are free?
    you ships are free, but you are not

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    Inconstant Moon
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    Faucet/Sink should be clarified with Creation/Destruction. Some people don't get that outflows == destruction of isk, and assume that personal expenditure equates to systemic loss. Creation and Destruction of Isk are harder to misinterpret and, bonus, less fucking stupid sounding.

    Things like Overseers Effects, or any of the other many items that have a consistent NPC buy order up for them. [s]Through this special Faucet is the route through which[/s] This is the mechanism by which wormholes, [s]a place with no bounties, can actually[/s], whose rats do not carry bounties, operate as an ISK faucet.

    Tortured phrasing.

    re: Inflation/Deflation section
    Getting an exact definition for inflation or deflation is a great reminder of why Economics is more of a liberal art than a science.
    Irrelevant statement, questionably accurate at best and certainly unnecessary to this thread. Inflation/Deflation definitions require a link to wiki articles so that people can get a better idea what they do. Your definitions are frankly horrifying (and the wiki articles are woefully out of date, whatever, "Economics is at a Crossroads"), but satisfy the "good enough" criteria.

    You should probably note that moderate inflation is a contributing factor to growth, and that deflation is always and everywhere a terrible growth destroying monstrosity from hell. Some people confuse the good moderate inflation with the bad high or hyper inflation, and underweight the nasty effects of deflation. Transmission mechanisms are confusing, so the "why" of it can be left out.

    IMO you are also understating the critical role PLEX play in determining currency valuation -- most visible in CCP's recent decision to "reclaim" PLEX assets from banned accounts and to form a sort of PLEX based central bank (a good thing, if they can manage it professionally and with the interests of the system as a whole in mind) -- but that's neither here nor there. I'd suggest a note at least acknowledging the importance of PLEX in determining the value of ISK.
    Oddly enough you go some way towards satisfying that desire in your mudflation bit.*

    Section three is basically garbage and could be tossed entirely. For example, your italicized bit is factually incorrect, as can be seen from the interaction between the market and the Fed with QE1 & QE2**.

    A quick note that the expected future rate of creation or destruction of assets, isk and PLEX play an integral role in determining the price of a particular good. I realize rule of three, but so what it's garbage.
    That should give you a decent rough and ready thing, although I'll be sure to take a peek in the morning and see if there are any major things that could be improved.


    *PLEX ought to be viewed as functionally similar to government bonds. They involve a present payment in the current period for a future repayment at a user determined date, and can be exchanged in a secondary market. So their value isn't so much the end result of "mudflation" as a critical component in determining the value of money. IOW I think you mostly nailed it, but with the cause and effect mixed up.

    **Markets and inflation expectations shifted immediately in response to policy announcement, policy implementation did not have similar effect. In EVE terms, think of every advance notice of patch changes ever, where markets immediately react. Expectations of the future level of increases in the "money supply" (caveats, caveats, moving on) are the critical factor.

    edit: Hey bro who negged me for this post, not sure how you confused "offering edits to improve the quality" with "shitting up the thread". He made a great start, I'm helping to improve it, if you don't understand that v0v. Mostly this is here because apparently at least one person is A) retarded and B) not willing to sign their negs LIKE A TROO WORRIOR. Goddamn, can you imagine if people took that approach to research papers? :

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    Crashlander T'Renn's Avatar
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    well you have to pay for the bpc to build the ship and it might be cheap but it's still an outlay. Obviously your time has value too but that's not easily quantified in economic terms here so it's best ignored anyway since nerdtime is worthless time anyway.

    To the OP that was really well done. I would drop that engineering econ class. I found in college that econ professors were hit or miss -- the ones that were good where really really good and the bad ones were absolutely terrible. The bad ones were almost universally political in their lectures and that while that might not have been the reason they were terrible, if there's anything that obscures economic understanding it's political opinion.

    EDIT: That first paragraph was directed at viri -- I didn't realize aeon was going to dump a giant shitpost in this thread before I had the chance to hit "post reply."

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    Quote Originally Posted by T'Renn View Post
    well you have to pay for the bpc to build the ship and it might be cheap but it's still an outlay. Obviously your time has value too but that's not easily quantified in economic terms here so it's best ignored anyway since nerdtime is worthless time anyway.

    To the OP that was really well done. I would drop that engineering econ class. I found in college that econ professors were hit or miss -- the ones that were good where really really good and the bad ones were absolutely terrible. The bad ones were almost universally political in their lectures and that while that might not have been the reason they were terrible, if there's anything that obscures economic understanding it's political opinion.
    The time you spend mining neither creates nor destroys isk in the system as a whole. What it does create is a waste of time, and what it destroys is the sanity of those who do it. Neither impacts the money supply.

    It becomes relevant when you consider the value of your time to you personally. Imagine you as a person have two possible options for generating isk. Activity A produces one million isk per hour. Activity B produces ten million isk per hour. If you chose to do A over B, you'd be missing out on nine million isk per hour. This is the opportunity cost to you of your decision to engage in A. You should keep in mind that there are other elements at play. Perhaps you enjoy PVP, and A involves PVP. You might be willing to forgo the additional income from B to engage in A because A involves doing something you enjoy. This is functionally equivalent to trading your "work" time for "leisure" time, and "paying" nine million isk to do so.

    So while mining does not change the total amount of isk in the system, it does cost you personally the opportunity to earn isk in other ways. But if you view it as a leisure activity, or as a supplement to a leisure activity, you might not care.


    hth

    edit: Since I'm going to do it anyway for a bit, I'll just explicitly say that I'm happy to answer econ questions in this thread and this thread alone. So, like, people in general should avoid shitting up other threads with unrelated econ stuff and in return I'll give them lots of werds.

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    Adjustment Team Lord Haur's Avatar
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    All I'd really like to add is that you should include Incursion payouts as a seperate isk faucet. Other than that, excellent post.

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    Crashlander T'Renn's Avatar
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    again bro I said "not easily expressed in economic terms here" because I didn't want to type out that whole bit you just said about time having personal value since I implied it, hence the "here." I didn't need the ECO 110 refresher thanks I went to college already.

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    Quote Originally Posted by T'Renn View Post
    again bro I said "not easily expressed in economic terms here" because I didn't want to type out that whole bit you just said about time having personal value since I implied it, hence the "here." I didn't need the ECO 110 refresher thanks I went to college already.
    You might not, but since the question came up others might. And an answer that fully explains everything is possibly more useful in an FAQ style thread.

    As far as the presumably derogatory econ class reference, not everyone who reads Kugu went to/is finished with college, and most of them probably did not study economics. I did, I earned my degree in economics, and continue to read about economics. It's just a topic I enjoy, and don't mind helping others to better understand*.

    If that makes you unhappy, v0v, but I'm not trying to call you stupid by being clear.

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    The Alien Mind
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    The mistake you're making is the same mistake people make in other parts of EvE, thinking that real world concepts (in this case economic) can directly translate into EvE. The simple existence of Mudflation should be an indiciation of the problem with that mentality, or the fact that we are talking about the "intrinsic value" of what is effectively space pixels. In many ways "value" in EvE is essentially a Fiat currency, only held up by the continued belief by others that there IS value.

    The point is that ultimately a lot of concepts simply don't work here. That's one of the reasons I don't really care about the nitty-gritty definition of inflation in EvE. Even in the real world that definition is not nearly as simple as you seem to make it out to be, and this is mostly because it is intrinsically linked to a definition of "value". And if THAT definition was easy to come to then you wouldn't have the intractible arguments that exist between Marxists purporting a labor-theory of value vs and Mises subjective stances and all the other shit that has ultimately become such a fundamental aspect of the the political spectrum. And as difficult to define as "value" is in the real world, it's even more-so in a world like EvE.

    Which is, more or less, why I didn't want to get hung up on that. It's a remarkably complex issue that really doesn't have to be examined here, and actually, shouldn't as it completely detracts from the main point.

    Otherwise interesting points. I probably should introduce a section on Oppurtunity Cost, since it's such a significant issue w/ EvE.

    Also, I completely forgot about Incursions and to be honest I know fuck all about it. Do they work with like LP or is it more like an anom run by a group?

    Edit: I should add that I DO actually appreciate the critique. And I can also appreciate that the liberal art comment comes across as a little harsh as well.

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    It's more like group missions. Fleet members on grid get x isk per completed site, which varies by fleet size and type of site. In addition, they get LPs added to a pool but the LPs only payout if the mom is killed.

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    In eve, it's doubtful the average player/corp. takes into consideration Inflation/deflation in their future purchases. Most of the time people, are just scrambling to replace the ship they just blown up. So they can blown it up again. There are exceptions, plex i imagine is one.

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    Question, isn't the best way to make money in Eve actually not playing Eve? Working even minimum wage earns ~$8 an hour, meaning roughly 1/2 a PLEX per hour, meaning 250 million ISK/hour. I know it's not really feasible to spend an hour or two of your daily Eve time working a minimum wage job, but in the end, taking on even a few extra hours IRL will save you many more of grinding Eve PvE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StevieTopSiders View Post
    Question, isn't the best way to make money in Eve actually not playing Eve? Working even minimum wage earns ~$8 an hour, meaning roughly 1/2 a PLEX per hour, meaning 250 million ISK/hour. I know it's not really feasible to spend an hour or two of your daily Eve time working a minimum wage job, but in the end, taking on even a few extra hours IRL will save you many more of grinding Eve PvE.
    On a personal level, yes, but that doesn't actually add any ISK to the system, so it's isk neutral.

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    Technically (being a bit douchey myself here) it's actually a *hair* ISK negative to the system since PLEX sales usually imply broker fee's/a tax. But anyways yeah you're right it really doesn't make a lot of sense to grind for ISK unless you either enjoy it, have nothing better to do, or live in a 3rd world country. As a side note most industry (excluding mining of course) and trading fall into the same category of ISK neutral (or a hair negative) since all they do is profit off the shit other people are too lazy to sell for optimal prices (or are unable to make themselves).

    Basically PLEX and trading can be categorized as Zero Sum Games for the most part, wheras other forms (ratting/mining) are not.

    Edit1: But the post isn't about making money in EvE. It's about understanding (or at least giving some of the framework for understanding) what may happen when changes like this upcoming drone region change come in, or what Microtransactions do to the game, or yada yada yada.

    Edit2:

    Quote Originally Posted by Hilmar Keller View Post
    It also means that if you have enough ISK you could theoretically buy up the mineral market until Trit's selling for 20 apiece, then swing a few dozen unfitted T1 BS into an incursion and make bank on the payout. Of course, if you've got the means to buy up the Jita mineral market like that, you could probably do a lot better than insurance fraud.
    There's simply no way you could do this in a way that would be profitable from what I understand.

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    I think he means buying up a ton of ships cheap, forcing the price higher and then waiting for CCP to update insurance payouts, before collecting significantly higher insurance payouts.

    Of course, it all relies on CCP improving insurance payouts, which is unlikely with CCP looking to reduce isk faucets.

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    I mean.....yeah maybe you could do it if you could force the mineral prices up for just a second for the insurance changes to hit and then after they hit you let the mineral prices drop back down and you go on a month long Insurance scam spree. But for one I'm not sure that it only looks at a single day's mineral price, two I'm not sure it's only changed monthly (if it is that's fucking embarrassing), and three I would like to believe that if someone managed that the economics team would catch it and revert it before you could make your money back. That's a lot of if's on my part. The main thing is that influencing the mineral market up enough to give you this, even for a day, would be obscenely expensive (I would think it would run into the trillions of ISK since everyone would dump their stocks).

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    In the closet Fix Lag's Avatar
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    It's late and I'm tired but let me just correct that the notion that insurance is an ISK faucet. It is not. It is a sink, because it expires and then people have to go buy new insurance, and they do this enough that they actually spend more money on insurance over time than they receive when their shit finally goes boom. Not bothering to find the QEN this is listed in, but you could always ask Eyjog or a CCP employee willing to talk to him and verify it.

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    Why did you start a thread to post very basic and simple economic shit. All of that shit is so basic it's literally required to be a functioning human, except for the stupid MMO game stuff about mudflation blah blah blah, and all the common sense shit about what makes money come into the game and what takes it out.

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    I'm not even certain it's been changed since the big rebalance a while back.

    And as I said before, it's probably not getting moved upwards any time soon.

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    Yeah, I was tempted to include that in the insurance thing (ok actually I forgot) but I assumed that the amount paid out went well over the amount that was allowed to expire. I mean, shit maybe I'm just fucking horrible at EvE but I've almost never had an insurance contract that expired. Also sorry for stealing your thunder on this one and pre-emptively post this.

    edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Haur View Post
    I'm not even certain it's been changed since the big rebalance a while back.

    And as I said before, it's probably not getting moved upwards any time soon.
    God damn that is embarrassing. You know a simple PID loop would be easy as fuck to put in there and it could update insurance payouts every day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hellkyte View Post
    Yeah, I was tempted to include that in the insurance thing (ok actually I forgot) but I assumed that the amount paid out went well over the amount that was allowed to expire. I mean, shit maybe I'm just fucking horrible at EvE but I've almost never had an insurance contract that expired. Also sorry for stealing your thunder on this one and pre-emptively post this.
    Correct.

    And that's before we consider that Platinum insurance costs less than you get from losing the same ship when uninsured.

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    Stickying this so it's easy to find when we need to link it in the negrep box next time someone says "but surely mining is an isk sink????"

    I've had insurance expire before, on a mission running battleship that I then managed to get blown up by too many rats (I'm bad at EVE). Seeing my wallet and thinking "Shouldn't I have like 5 times more than this?" before the awful realisation dawned was pretty bad...

    Anyway happy 5000th post to me

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    Quote Originally Posted by progodlegend View Post
    Why did you start a thread to post very basic and simple economic shit. All of that shit is so basic it's literally required to be a functioning human, except for the stupid MMO game stuff about mudflation blah blah blah, and all the common sense shit about what makes money come into the game and what takes it out.
    No need to get snippy.

    Obviously there's a need for basic and simple economic shit because people keep insisting on getting the basics ass backwards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jimmychrist View Post
    No need to get snippy.

    Obviously there's a need for basic and simple economic shit because people keep insisting on getting the basics ass backwards.
    I'm full of hate, for everyone, they are all retarded. Yes everyone.

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    This is a good thread, thanks for making it.

    *goes back to mining veldspar for his ships*
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viribus View Post
    So this means that if I mine my own minerals, my ships are free?
    Time is money. If you can NPC your way to 1B ISK before you can mine your way to 1B ISK worth of minerals, then no, there is no discount. And, don't forget, you've got to build them, have a print.

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    There's a couple guys dancing around the concept of opportunity cost. It's opportunity cost that says you're foolish mining for 20m/hr if you can rat for 40, and (from a viewpoint solely on in-game isk) foolish to do either if you can just stay an extra hour at work IRL. It's essentially the basis for minmaxing.

    Opportunity cost (and the reduction thereof) also acts as an indicator mudflation in game and out. In game the cost of losing a ship (in player hours) drops, thus the opportunity cost of that real life time-to-replace drops, and losing a ship becomes less of a big deal. Real world mudflation means things like acquiring food are far cheaper (again, in time) so the opportunity costs of higher-level activity vs starving to death go down. (Or as some people put it, we have more leisure time.)

    Also to the OP, your teacher was correct that there's a dollar depreciation factor in the price of oil; you're also correct that there's a supply/demand factor. In both cases the speculation effects are probably larger than direct instant effects. There are other speculative concerns as well as inefficiencies relating to a temporary mismatch between the specific types of oil (light, Brent etc) and the refinery locations and capacity for those types. As circular as it may sound, nothing in any non-trivial economic system is ever simple.

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    I think the oil thing was really just an example. Thank you though.

    Inflation is too much money chasing too few goods. Inflation is healthy only to the extent that the population is increasing.

    Deflation is a net increase in buying power and it's positive in the short run. The idea that inflation is fine and deflation is terrible started with the lost decade the Japanese suffered. Here they are the exception not the rule. Won't find many situations where negative interest rates do not stimulate economic activity (see: US circa 2009.) as in the Japanese situation.

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    Adjust the title to add an O, making it Eveonomics, TIA

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fix Lag View Post
    Adjust the title to add an O, making it Eveonomics, TIA
    Done, is this better?

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    Yes. My linguistic urges have been satisfied.

    For now.

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    SOV bills are a HUGE isk sink.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hellkyte View Post
    I mean.....yeah maybe you could do it if you could force the mineral prices up for just a second for the insurance changes to hit and then after they hit you let the mineral prices drop back down and you go on a month long Insurance scam spree. But for one I'm not sure that it only looks at a single day's mineral price, two I'm not sure it's only changed monthly (if it is that's fucking embarrassing), and three I would like to believe that if someone managed that the economics team would catch it and revert it before you could make your money back. That's a lot of if's on my part. The main thing is that influencing the mineral market up enough to give you this, even for a day, would be obscenely expensive (I would think it would run into the trillions of ISK since everyone would dump their stocks).
    Like I said at the end of my post, if you had that much ISK sitting around, I'm sure you could do much more lucrative things than insurance fraud. But it is possible.

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    The idea that deflation is bad comes from way further back than that. It may look great to the short term consumer, but it's only part of the equation. For producers your product now sells for less, any loans you make essentially go up in rate and your effective labor costs rise - people generally quit/get fired before getting pay cuts. So you end up with stuff getting cheaper, but no one buys stuff because they're unemployed. Perhaps the biggest problem comes from liquidity (related to that effective rate increase) - if your fiat currency grows in real value sitting under the proverbial mattress, it becomes unattractive to lend it out. Liquidity crashes are a Big Deal; the Japs have tried (with negative borrowing interest rates) to maintain liquidity, but with few competitive options domestically it just flows overseas.

    Basically you want a low amount of inflation -just enough to remain positive through market shocks - for liquidity purposes. The key word there is LOW - sovereigns printing fiat to pay their bills cause other problems.

    I don't really see parallels in Eve - we don't have a conventional labor market and production is fairly tolerant of deflating effects (see PI)

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    There is a CTA in an hour. Wait the prices are falling, we better wait to get our ships blown up (deflation).
    CTA soon, wait prices are increasing! We cant wait any longer, we better go now...

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    The other thing to consider is that (in general) industry in EVE has a very low barrier to entry. I can get into and make a profit with T1 production pretty easily, and though I won't be making tremendous profit, I could flip a billion into another billion in a matter of days through Jita.

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    It's after 1am so I don't have time to write a full explanation of this but you've made up a version of mudflation which is pretty different from the commonly used one in game design.

    Mudflation is the tendency of persistent gameworlds to render the original equipment, skills etc in the game obsolescent over time due to the introduction of new gear or abilities. In eve, with many patches new ships are introduced, and with the release of bigger and bigger ships the original ones are devalued. Where battleships were once awe-inspiring ships that dominated the field, now they are vulnerable to Titan blapping, while some simpletons call for bigger ships yet.

    This is the parallel to inflation that is referenced in the name. In WoW, the equivalent would be the raising of the level cap, the introduction of new, shinier gear and the addition of additional abilities and spells at higher levels which render the old level 60 ones unimportant where they were originally coveted.

    Mudflation is the result of games companies knowing that a static gameworld is up attractive to existing players, who want new goals to aim for and new pieces of cheese for the skinner box. It is the inflation of ability, not of money.
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    Yeah it's true that it's kind of a goofy definition, but the normal MMO mudflation concept doesn't exactly exist in EvE since shit is destructible and there is no lvl cap. It sort of exists in SP, but any older player appreciates that a new character can do a fuck ton even with out all the SP. The reason I use it is because it's the closest thing that compares, and it seems to be somewhat in line with it, since, in the resource sense, it's about a declining value over time, which is what is occurring here.

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    On the contrary mudflation is a common and crippling dynamic in eve and its occurrence (thanks to Seleene's supercap changes, for instance) and ccp's attempts to combat it are key elements of the current debate over the game. You might think that it should have a different definition from the one everyone else uses but it's misleading not to mention that you're just making that bit up when the preceding definitions are standard.

    The rest is a good post, but that bit is like saying that curves should mean right-angles in non-Euclidean geometry just because you think they look a bit different.
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    Yeah, that's a fair point (that I can't just co-opt the word). But I do think that what I have described is a part of mudflation. The concept itself is new, and I don't think it's been fully fleshed out. A part of the concept (as I have heard it described) is that the resources of the game lose value through the continued operation of it, not just through expansion. The case I have described fits that definition.

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    I might be wrong, but I think you should specify more types of inflation, because you can't just look at the prices of ships going up and say "that's inflation", because there's been a ton of various things going on. We've had monetary inflation (we've seen this through, say, plexes), we've had resource inflation (we see this the best on various resources such as minerals), and we've had asset inflation (titans being the new dreads being the prime example).

    I think that the fact that f.ex trit has been so low for so long, has been more a case of supply severely counteracting the effects of monetary inflation, and it's only lately that the prices have started to increase, i.e. we're finally seeing price inflation. I'm not sure if this is due to f.ex supers being built in such great numbers these days that they're actually outstripping supply, or if it's just people speculating due to the upcoming drone nerf (personally I'm assuming more of the former than the latter, due to the fact that supply is so massive, very few people can actually have any impact on trit/pyerite), but highends are definitely seeing their prices increase due to a removal of various mineral faucets (f.ex pax amarria refined into 6 nocx 2 iso, so whenever the price of nocx exceeded something around 500, people would buy those, refine them and sell the nocx and iso, thus artificially depressing the price.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MpozoY View Post
    There's a couple guys dancing around the concept of opportunity cost. It's opportunity cost that says you're foolish mining for 20m/hr if you can rat for 40, and (from a viewpoint solely on in-game isk) foolish to do either if you can just stay an extra hour at work IRL. It's essentially the basis for minmaxing..
    I think that Opportunity Cost (the way it is being explained to me) is far to variable to be a black or white rule. Once you end your RL income time, and are in your "personal" time - the activities you do in EVE can be impacted by the world around you. Perhaps you have small children and cannot get on vent and in fleet until hour X when they go to bed, but you can AFK ice mine on an alt in hisec during that time. In your strict definitions this is lost opportunity cost, but if you are able to make some isk and have a life, that isn't lost opportunity cost vs. ratting or whatever.

    Point being, it's not an obvious "do X or Y, your cost is Z," because there are mitigating factors in that beyond the simple choices of X or Y (one of which may be do nothing in EVE).

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