CCP cutting back on WoD

**Malcanis** · 2011-10-19

The funny thing is that in mid 2009, CCP were actually on course to have over 500k subs by now. If they'd maintained the momentum from Apocrypha, they'd be sitting pretty. But as we all know they bought into their own hype and lost sight of the [invest in EVE -> reap more subscriptions] in favour of [Be :awesome: Icelandic brosefs -> people will give us their money because we're :awesome: Icelandic brosefs]

**jimmychrist** · 2011-10-19

But the fashion designer still has a job, right? RIGHT?!

**Aeon221** · 2011-10-19

Developing an mmo and a shooter while running a third into the ground was a poor idea? SAY IT AIN'T SO!

In the (real) business world, they'd have spun off WoD as an independent subsidiary and sold it to someone else or let it go under and ditch the debt that way. Instead, they're stuck with a giant vampire shaped money sucking turd.

Dust could do all right, but they're gonna need to invest a lot of time and effort into it to keep people playing. And somehow I kinda doubt they'll dedicate teams to regular content pack releases (free and paid). You need that sort of developer activity to sustain activity in an MP shooter -- or a shitload of interested and high quality mod teams taking over -- that's why Valve keeps tossing free shit into TF2. Without it all you get is what people pay in, and without box cost that won't be much.

Originally Posted by jimmychrist

But the fashion designer still has a job, right? RIGHT?!

Well of course, otherwise what would they put in their store? Poorly sketched penises? (would buy one)

**Rer** · 2011-10-19

I miss Fallout already :cry:

**Belloche** · 2011-10-19

Originally Posted by MtA

I guess I'm the only one who would like an MMO based on the World of Darkness universe.

Actually, you are not alone. I played the table top version a long time ago and was part of the group that started the larp in Savannah Georgia back in '93 or '94 (its been while don't remember the exact date). I will check out the mmo once it is done.

**Arrador** · 2011-10-19

FAO: The 20%

Perpetuum is over there --->

**Aeon221** · 2011-10-19

Originally Posted by Arrador

FAO: The 20%

Perpetuum is over there --->

Everyone quit perp too, they still haven't updated it with fun.

**Buddahcjcc** · 2011-10-19

Kinda funny that they killed off the community team when the numer one problem with the game is theyre not listening to the fucking community and Hilmar has his head up his ass.

They should have fired him instead

Originally Posted by MtA

I guess I'm the only one who would like an MMO based on the World of Darkness universe.

I would too just not made by these assclowns
especially with the bits from greed is good about unlocking powers in game then having to buy them with real money to use them.... yeah FUCK THAT

**Tippia** · 2011-10-19

Originally Posted by Buddahcjcc

Originally Posted by MtA

I guess I'm the only one who would like an MMO based on the World of Darkness universe.

I would too just not made by these assclowns
especially with the bits from greed is good about unlocking powers in game then having to buy them with real money to use them.... yeah FUCK THAT

As an old WoD player, I would very much like to see it come to fruition as well, but I'm a bit more split on whether CCP are the right people to do it or not.

On the one hand, I envision WoD to be very similar to EVE in terms of game play, especially when it comes to the scheming and politics and constant backstabbing, and I can't really see anyone else but CCP do it because… well, they're the only ones who know how to do it. On the other hand, that kind of game (and definitely EVE as well) requires a certain measure of stability to allow those kinds of long-term player-made plans to work, and it feels like they've grown far too ADD to do that kind of thing.

Maybe it's a matter of “old CCP” vs. “new CCP”…

**Murr** · 2011-10-19

Am I the only one to think that something went wrong with the WoD deal and all this fuzz just followed? I mean all this :honesty: and redeeming attitude from CCP and for (eve online a bad) game that does seem to have reached its limits to begin with.

**syndic thrass** · 2011-10-19

I live a few hours from Atlanta and a while back I filed a petition and ask if there was anything there a subscriber would like to see in the Atlanta office. The response was literally "there is nothing there anyone should care about" so fuck vampires.

**Malcanis** · 2011-10-19

Originally Posted by Murr

Am I the only one to think that something went wrong with the WoD deal and all this fuzz just followed? I mean all this :honesty: and redeeming attitude from CCP and for (eve online a bad) game that does seem to have reached its limits to begin with.

Yeah no I'm thinking it's more that their venture-capital investers were all WHERE'S THE MONEY, HILMARSKI, GIVE US THE MONEY HILMARSKI

**J'envie Smack** · 2011-10-19

Originally Posted by Malcanis

Yeah no I'm thinking it's more that their venture-capital investers were all WHERE'S THE MONEY, HILMARSKI, GIVE US THE MONEY HILMARSKI

And then they pissed on the rug that was the Community Team. Which sucks, because they really pulled the forums together.

**HeliconOne** · 2011-10-19

Originally Posted by Murr

Am I the only one to think that something went wrong with the WoD deal and all this fuzz just followed?

Releasing Incarna as a demo for the engine and realising that its a broken piece of shit that glitches all over the place and causes your PC to spontaneously combust even when its one avatar in a small room probably didn't help.

**Iratus** · 2011-10-19

This is a sensible move, and even tho' I was somewhat interested in WoD, I'm totally happy with it being moved to the back of the backburner... however, the firing of the community team boggles me. Maybe they are getting part of the blame for the lack of information flow from the players to CCP? I really can't find a proper reason to explain their situation.

**Kireiina** · 2011-10-19

Bowing to the inevitable. That said the right time to realize that CCP was over-reaching was months to years ago.

**Kosssaw** · 2011-10-19

Sad to see job losses. Given that most are in the Atlanta office it's pretty clear the WoD team has been deleted.

Eve Subscriber numbers are only relevant in that they are the source of CCP's income, and the Financial report shows that they have to spend some of that income financing a new loan rather than paying salaries. If DUST succeeds ( and despite the naysayers I think it might ) then income will increase and CCP will have cashflow to resurrect WoD again - hence they are keeping enough staff to have some chance of resurrecting it.

Unfortunately it probably required a botched release of the Incarna engine to get it through to upper management just how far short of release the WoD project was.

**Gossip Whore** · 2011-10-19

CCP paying the price of their stupidity.

**Kosssaw** · 2011-10-19

Unfortunately more like CCP employees paying for CCP management's over extended ambition.

**UnknownPoster** · 2011-10-19

Originally Posted by Gossip Whore

CCP paying the price of their stupidity.

Except CCP isn't the one paying the price. Unfortunately the shit ran down hill as always, and is affecting the employees.
20% is a pretty big number, even for a company as small as CCP, and as posted earlier, there is now a list of jobless/layed off dev's.
On the bright side, it truly seems CCP is pulling their pants up and listening to the memberbase, at first I was scheptical. However at what price?

**Rer** · 2011-10-19

Originally Posted by Gossip Whore

The few cool people in CCP paying the price of their bosses' stupidity.

Fix'd

**Manfred Hideous** · 2011-10-20

Originally Posted by UnknownPoster

Except CCP isn't the one paying the price. Unfortunately the shit ran down hill as always, and is affecting the employees.
20% is a pretty big number, even for a company as small as CCP, and as posted earlier, there is now a list of jobless/layed off dev's.
On the bright side, it truly seems CCP is pulling their pants up and listening to the memberbase, at first I was scheptical. However at what price?

Well, they're always able to join an occupy protest for free food.

**Jean Leaner** · 2011-10-20

Originally Posted by Manfred Hideous

Well, they're always able to join an occupy protest for free food.

Occupy Jita protests perhaps.

**Marivauder** · 2011-10-20

Who cares about WoD, we are all missing where the real problem is, wheres my damn door

**ihaveahelmet** · 2011-10-20

Someone told me the door was gone because all along behind it was ship spinning. I thought it was cool.

**riverini [banned]** · 2011-10-20

Originally Posted by Arrador

FAO: The 20%

Perpetuum is over there --->

Originally Posted by Kosssaw

Sad to see job losses. Given that most are in the Atlanta office it's pretty clear the WoD team has been deleted.

Eve Subscriber numbers are only relevant in that they are the source of CCP's income, and the Financial report shows that they have to spend some of that income financing a new loan rather than paying salaries. If DUST succeeds ( and despite the naysayers I think it might ) then income will increase and CCP will have cashflow to resurrect WoD again - hence they are keeping enough staff to have some chance of resurrecting it.

Unfortunately it probably required a botched release of the Incarna engine to get it through to upper management just how far short of release the WoD project was.

Maybe CCP would do the most sensible thing here and move jobs to india... am told most of the GMs are from Philippines, nothing confirmed though...

Anyhow, i wouldn't be surprised if for services like forums and crap CCP would offer "mod rights" to "serious" player... and no am not joking on this one.

R

**ihaveahelmet** · 2011-10-20

Originally Posted by riverini

Maybe CCP would do the most sensible thing here and move jobs to india... am told most of the GMs are from Philippines, nothing confirmed though...

Maybe you would do the most sensible thing here and kill yourself

**syndic thrass** · 2011-10-20

Originally Posted by riverini

[spoiler]am told most of the GMs are from Philippines, nothing confirmed though...

Originally Posted by riverini

Most of my guys say that GSF most likely made their money already, that's it, got a good chunk of ice and already sold it and the stuff we seeing now is primarily speculators taking over at the market game.

I don't trust your sources...

**Rer** · 2011-10-20

Didn't anyone watch the newest episode of family guy? Riverini is our Meg. Rather than pointing fingers and hating each other, its all centralized on him.

He serves a very important purpose that should not be tested.

**Jovan Geldon** · 2011-10-20

Other than Fallout (who's already posted her goodbye letter) and Hammerhead (who apparently posted on his Facebook about it according to Verone), are there any more confirmed departures? I've heard rumours of people like Zymurgist, Pann, and Wrangler (community team) and Valar (database admin) also being part of the 20%, but until I see something other than

posts on the E-O forums/FHC, I'm remaining skeptical.

**Rer** · 2011-10-20

Zymurgist posted on Twitter that he's out as well.

**riverini [banned]** · 2011-10-20

Originally Posted by Rer

Didn't anyone watch the newest episode of family guy? Riverini is our Meg. Rather than pointing fingers and hating each other, its all centralized on him.

He serves a very important purpose that should not be tested.

says the guy from indiana... :P

**Rer** · 2011-10-20

Game on sir.

**Kevin** · 2011-10-20

This isn't Hilmar reducing the commitment to WOD, and getting rid of some developers to focus on Eve and Dust514, that's all just spin. If you'll believe that then I have a nice bridge with a wonderful view that's just come onto the market.

If it was about 'improving relations' and 'focusing on FiS and Dust' then they wouldn't be firing their community teams and their database lot, unless some of the other guys from the WOD game did that job better and are replacing them. Doubtful. Bottom line is, CCP are hurting financially and are cutting back. Anything about 'hearing our playerbase' (through the community team you just fired) and focusing on expanding the game (via all those content guys you just fired) is a load of rubbish.

Nobody pat themselves on the back about this just yet, a 20% staff cut and shelving of a project they spent years writing all their own engines for aint a good thing for Eve, if anything it indicates that CCP is in a real financial problem, the rest is spin to keep you logging in.

**Brooks Puuntai** · 2011-10-20

Originally Posted by riverini

says the guy from indiana... :P

Hey I resent that.

**Kosssaw** · 2011-10-20

Originally Posted by riverini

Anyhow, i wouldn't be surprised if for services like forums and crap CCP would offer "mod rights" to "serious" player... and no am not joking on this one.

R

Hopefully they will actually be able to speak English properly

**Brooks Puuntai** · 2011-10-20

Originally Posted by Kosssaw

Hopefully they will actually be able to speak English properly

**Sentinel Eeex** · 2011-10-20

Originally Posted by riverini

most sensible thing here and move jobs to india... am told most of the GMs are from Philippines, nothing confirmed though...

How many NDAs were breached in order to obtain that information?

**Buddahcjcc** · 2011-10-20

Originally Posted by J'envie Smack

And then they pissed on the rug that was the Community Team. Which sucks, because they really pulled the forums together.

funny thing?

There are no mods right now...
Yet the EVE-O forums HAVENT blown up into a horrifying cesspool, anymore than it already is lol

This is a sensible move, and even tho' I was somewhat interested in WoD, I'm totally happy with it being moved to the back of the backburner... however, the firing of the community team boggles me. Maybe they are getting part of the blame for the lack of information flow from the players to CCP? I really can't find a proper reason to explain their situation.

and yet the CSM are still around, wasnt that their purpose?

**Jovan Geldon** · 2011-10-20

There are still *some* mods. Navigator, Spitfire, Guard, Phantom, and Shadow (even though he never posts any more) are community guys and I haven't personally heard anything about them being knocked off yet.

**Brooks Puuntai** · 2011-10-20

Originally Posted by Jovan Geldon

There are still *some* mods. Navigator, Spitfire, Guard, Phantom, and Shadow (even though he never posts any more) are community guys and I haven't personally heard anything about them being knocked off yet.

Shadow got relocated to Dust. Guard and Spitfire are still around, and Phantom is new. Nav I'm not sure about haven't seen much.

**July** · 2011-10-20

[spoiler=CCP Reasoning]Guys I think I'm going focus more on college by dropping 20% of my classes.[/spoiler]

**UnknownPoster** · 2011-10-20

Originally Posted by July

[spoiler=CCP Reasoning]Guys I think I'm going focus more on college by dropping 20% of my classes.[/spoiler]

It's more like "I'm going to focus more on Law by dropping American History Class"

Their on the right path but it's unfortunate some dev's had to lose jobs just to keep an internet spaceships game going.

CCP Fallout, your sacrifice will forever be honoured. o7

**Jovan Geldon** · 2011-10-20

Things started going downhill fast(er) the day StevieSG left. If only we had her foresight

**Brooks Puuntai** · 2011-10-20

Originally Posted by Jovan Geldon

Things started going downhill fast(er) the day StevieSG left. If only we had her foresight

I was always curious about that. Did Stevie actually leave CCP or did she get relocated?

**Jovan Geldon** · 2011-10-20

We'll never know (officially). I've seen pictures of her doing promotional work for EA on stuff like The Old Republic, so she might well have been headhunted. Sexy blonde English girl gamers are hard to come by, I should imagine.

**Zakhodit** · 2011-10-20

World of Darknes, the game, is screwed.

In 1998 I worked for a software company called Saffire. They are a small game developer that was contracted by Blizzard to work on Brood Wars. During a break in a development meeting a Blizzard employee talked about "Stalled" projects. (This was sparked by a joke I made about stalled meetings.) He stated that around a third of total cost of developing a game is spent in the first 90 days. If, for some reason, funding is dropped on a game they (Blizzard) put the project on "life support." I.E. they have a small team of devs to continue to refine what they have but they spend as little as possible on the project and nothing new is added.

The reason is the hope to recoup the initial investment by either selling the game rights to another developer or getting another investor to put money in the game. Games are never completely dumped, it's a waste of cash. At the very least the code can be used in other games. (In this case WoD may now be used to set up the rest of Walking In Stations)

The bottom line is that WoD is vaporware.

Granted, it's been 12 years since I actually worked in the game industry and things could be a lot different now but there have been plenty of examples of this happening.

Ever hear of a company called Perpetual Entertainment?

They begain development on a game called Gods & Heros. Then they took on developing a Star Trek MMO. Gods & Heros was delayed and the jokes about Perpetual Enterainment grew. The company went bankrupt. The Star Trek game was sold to Atari and they actually finished it. How much of the code by Perpetual is in the finished product I don't know. I think someone bought Gods & Heros but I don't know what became of it.

It is possible that someone will buy WoD from CCP and finish the game. It's also possible that someone will buy WoD and finish an MMO using it but it won't be WoD. So maybe there will be a WoD game someday, but it won't be made by CCP. (That actually may be a good thing.)

**riverini [banned]** · 2011-10-20

Originally Posted by Zakhodit

World of Darknes, the game, is screwed.

In 1998 I worked for a software company called Saffire. They are a small game developer that was contracted by Blizzard to work on Brood Wars. During a break in a development meeting a Blizzard employee talked about "Stalled" projects. (This was sparked by a joke I made about stalled meetings.) He stated that around a third of total cost of developing a game is spent in the first 90 days. If, for some reason, funding is dropped on a game they (Blizzard) put the project on "life support." I.E. they have a small team of devs to continue to refine what they have but they spend as little as possible on the project and nothing new is added.

The reason is the hope to recoup the initial investment by either selling the game rights to another developer or getting another investor to put money in the game. Games are never completely dumped, it's a waste of cash. At the very least the code can be used in other games. (In this case WoD may now be used to set up the rest of Walking In Stations)

The bottom line is that WoD is vaporware.

Granted, it's been 12 years since I actually worked in the game industry and things could be a lot different now but there have been plenty of examples of this happening.

Ever hear of a company called Perpetual Entertainment?

They begain development on a game called Gods & Heros. Then they took on developing a Star Trek MMO. Gods & Heros was delayed and the jokes about Perpetual Enterainment grew. The company went bankrupt. The Star Trek game was sold to Atari and they actually finished it. How much of the code by Perpetual is in the finished product I don't know. I think someone bought Gods & Heros but I don't know what became of it.

It is possible that someone will buy WoD from CCP and finish the game. It's also possible that someone will buy WoD and finish an MMO using it but it won't be WoD. So maybe there will be a WoD game someday, but it won't be made by CCP. (That actually may be a good thing.)

Very good post.