DD Nerf on Sisi arrived

[Vile rat]

It was a piss poor real world analogy. But groups like rangers , army delta , seals etc. Your logic suggest that smaller well trained well equipped can't beat a larger homogenized fighting force.

Depends. How much smaller? At some point numbers DO mean something. Yes I think a group of 500 guys in proper fleet fit ships with a good FC should be able to wipe the floor with a vastly smaller supercap blob if they don't have proper support. No I don't think that 100 people should be able to easily beat 500. No I don't think there is any reason why they should be able to either. I think you should be able to be beaten outnumbered if you are better than the opposition, but your ships shouldn't be the biggest deciding factor in this one. Ships give you an advantage against numbers, but you think this should remove the need for numbers to be in the general ballpark of the other side, I don't.

Also groups like special forces weren't meant to go head to head with large enemy groups and win, that's not their role. I'd put their best in game counterpart as small cloaky groups who ruin your home space instead.

A groups force size has never been the sole determining factor. A supercap fleet should be able to go toe to toe with a shit ton of subcaps.

Why? I 100% disagree.

A CFC alpha fleet has a net value of about 250 bil and 500 people. A PL super fleet is in excess of a trillion isk and less than 100 people. Your group deals in warm bodies as its leverage for force the group I belong to leverages a shit ton more isk to compete.

I have more money than you, I should win god dammit!!

Your reaching and trying pretty hard to discredit a point I was making. Do supers need to rebalanced ? Yes. However by risking such a fleet should have some inherit advantages. Its the same as a group that fields 500 when the other guy only fields 100. Should groups that blob be nerfed? I mean that's unfair isn't it?

If the other guy shows up with 500 dudes and you only have 100 then adjust your objectives or figure out a way to break up their coalition. Just cause you want to play with a small group doesn't mean you should have the automatic right to be able to compete at the highest levels against combined fleets of hundreds of dudes. You gotta get all asymetrical on this bitch if you want to win in those circumstances, not rely on fountains of ISK to level the playing field.

[Malcanis]

Actually if AOE Titans were still around today, we'd be in a pretty interesting situation since several alliances now would be ale to clear grid of all non-supers.

In fact with the number of Titans in game these days, things would be starting to look kind of dicey for less well tanked supercarriers

[haukim]

Your reaching and trying pretty hard to discredit a point I was making. Do supers need to rebalanced ? Yes. However by risking such a fleet should have some inherit advantages. Its the same as a group that fields 500 when the other guy only fields 100. Should groups that blob be nerfed? I mean that's unfair isn't it?

When you jump in 50 supers against a subcap only fleet dealing the maximum DPS the server can support from such a fleet (let's assume n ships where 1000<n<2000) how many supers do you risk in 15 minutes? 5? 10? What additional risk is there from jumping in another 50?

[Manny]

Depends. How much smaller? At some point numbers DO mean something. Yes I think a group of 500 guys in proper fleet fit ships with a good FC should be able to wipe the floor with a vastly smaller supercap blob if they don't have proper support. No I don't think that 100 people should be able to easily beat 500. No I don't think there is any reason why they should be able to either. I think you should be able to be beaten outnumbered if you are better than the opposition, but your ships shouldn't be the biggest deciding factor in this one. Ships give you an advantage against numbers, but you think this should remove the need for numbers to be in the general ballpark of the other side, I don't.

Also groups like special forces weren't meant to go head to head with large enemy groups and win, that's not their role. I'd put their best in game counterpart as small cloaky groups who ruin your home space instead.

So the only PVP should be subcap vs subcap and the guy that brings the most will most likely win hey? You know there is other positions besides missionary?

Why? I 100% disagree.

Of course you do.

I have more money than you, I should win god dammit!!

You guys have tons of isk and income you CHOOSE to spend it poorly. You also CHOOSE not to use the supercapitals you do have.

If the other guy shows up with 500 dudes and you only have 100 then adjust your objectives or figure out a way to break up their coalition. Just cause you want to play with a small group doesn't mean you should have the automatic right to be able to compete at the highest levels against combined fleets of hundreds of dudes. You gotta get all asymetrical on this bitch if you want to win in those circumstances, not rely on fountains of ISK to level the playing field.

I think its pretty clear there is alot more going on. Spying , Misdirection , Skill + more expensive ships. You eagerly want to discount the time people spent to train for advanced ships or the effort it took to acquire said ships. Your agenda smells of " Wanting to homogenize everything so that shear numbers and diplomacy always wins".

[tgr]

When you jump in 50 supers against a subcap only fleet dealing the maximum DPS the server can support from such a fleet (let's assume n ships where 1000<n<2000) how many supers do you risk in 15 minutes? 5? 10? What additional risk is there from jumping in another 50?

This would be fixed if CCP had changed the way aggression timers worked, so that if your ship was shootable (regardless of whether or not your character were logged in), if you got aggressed, that timer were reset.

Log off without aggression, and that window is 30 seconds f.ex, but log off with aggression and that window is 15 minutes. If you're aggressed at any time during that timeperiod, the timer is reset to 15 minutes. In other words, get your ass safe before logging off, or go down like the bitch you are.

[tgr]

So the only PVP should be subcap vs subcap and the guy that brings the most will most likely win hey? You know there is other positions besides missionary?

I'm going to ask you again, what sort of role are supercaps supposed to fill? Literally every other ship have their specific role to play in a well-designed fleet, where do supercaps fit into this? Blap everything because they're so expensive?

[Skyly]

Actually, riddle me this: what was the role of a titan supposed to be? And what is it being used for today?

I'll bite.

The original role of the titan was to allow a smaller group of players to use an ISK advantage to fight against massive blobs of Scrubs (i.e. Non supercaps).
Today, titans are being used to allow a smaller group of players to use an ISK advantage to fight against massive blobs of Scrubs (i.e. Non supercaps).

[Manny]

When you jump in 50 supers against a subcap only fleet dealing the maximum DPS the server can support from such a fleet (let's assume n ships where 1000<n<2000) how many supers do you risk in 15 minutes? 5? 10? What additional risk is there from jumping in another 50?

Why don't the subcap fleet then jump there supers in ? Do logging off mechanics need to be fixed HELL YES however that is a universal problem and not specific to supers although I admit that Supers do get a advantage due to there HP's. But punishing players who trained for said ships worked through whatever means to acquire those ships isn't right either. Its the logoff mechanic not the ships. Let me save you the time waiting this upcoming super nerf wont change the fact that there will be groups that will drop your subcaps with large amounts of spacedicks. At some point you will have to learn how to deal with it or quit the game.

[Mfume]

man let me tell you about the time the joint army navy beret seals went head up against saddams entire armored corps in open field battle with no support and came out saying, "duh, winning!"

[Vinata]

Your agenda smells of " Wanting to homogenize everything so that shear numbers and diplomacy always wins".

And yours smells desperately of "My group can't go head-to-head against 5:1 odds for extended periods of time and I want that to change."

A supercap shouldn't be able to take out a battleship fleet for the same reason a battleship shouldn't be able to take out a frigate fleet.

[Manny]

I'm going to ask you again, what sort of role are supercaps supposed to fill? Literally every other ship have their specific role to play in a well-designed fleet, where do supercaps fit into this? Blap everything because they're so expensive?

Biggest baddest motherfucking gun.

BECAUSE LITERALLY EVERY PVP GAME HAS A BFG. The good thing about Eve like everyother game is you too can have a BFG now quit the crying and get a BFG if you cba to put the effort forward to get a BFG don't demand mine take away because you are a scrub.

Sorry is it that hard to understand?

[Vile rat]

Why don't the subcap fleet then jump there supers in ? Do logging off mechanics need to be fixed HELL YES however that is a universal problem and not specific to supers although I admit that Supers do get a advantage due to there HP's. But punishing players who trained for said ships worked through whatever means to acquire those ships isn't right either. Its the logoff mechanic not the ships. Let me save you the time waiting this upcoming super nerf wont change the fact that there will be groups that will drop your subcaps with large amounts of spacedicks. At some point you will have to learn how to deal with it or quit the game.

Sadly supercaps aren't being neutered, just balanced. They should have a role to play just like every other ship, but their role shouldn't counter every other ship. Now supercaps will still be powerful, but they will require you to actually field a subcap fleet in support.

[Vile rat]

Biggest baddest motherfucking gun.

BECAUSE LITERALLY EVERY PVP GAME HAS A BFG. The good thing about Eve like everyother game is you too can have a BFG now quit the crying and get a BFG if you cba to put the effort forward to get a BFG don't demand mine take away because you are a scrub.

Sorry is it that hard to understand?

Ok uh...

[Manny]

Ok uh...

Yeah hard to have a comeback to common sense hey?

[Vinata]

Biggest baddest motherfucking gun.

BECAUSE LITERALLY EVERY PVP GAME HAS A BFG. The good thing about Eve like everyother game is you too can have a BFG now quit the crying and get a BFG if you cba to put the effort forward to get a BFG don't demand mine take away because you are a scrub.

Sorry is it that hard to understand?

That's your reason? "Every other PvP game has one"?

e: It is really hard to devise a comeback to what is basically "Because, that's why!"

[Vinata]

Manny, what's the BFG in Street Fighter 4? What about Marvel vs Capcom 3? Skullgirls? Mortal Kombat Please tell me what the BFGs are in these games which are exclusively PvP.

[Vile rat]

Yeah hard to have a comeback to common sense hey?

Fighting that retarded mentality is why I was elected to the CSM. I hope I've done a good job for my constituents.

[Manny]

That's your reason? "Every other PvP game has one"?

There is always going to be something that is perceived as OP. Ever heard people bitching about being Gustav'd? Its a anti-tank rocket launcher ANTI-TANK yet people use it against dudes. Know what you do , get a Gustav and shoot that fag first.

[Vinata]

Oh also, what's the BFG in the latest Call of Duty? What about the original Battlefield? I don't know much about FPS games (which EVE isn't) but I'm assuming they have to have a BFG of some sort

[haukim]

Why don't the subcap fleet then jump there supers in ? Do logging off mechanics need to be fixed HELL YES however that is a universal problem and not specific to supers although I admit that Supers do get a advantage due to there HP's. But punishing players who trained for said ships worked through whatever means to acquire those ships isn't right either. Its the logoff mechanic not the ships. Let me save you the time waiting this upcoming super nerf wont change the fact that there will be groups that will drop your subcaps with large amounts of spacedicks. At some point you will have to learn how to deal with it or quit the game.

Why should a subcap fleet that's winning against supers ever bother jumping in supers? It is the log off mechanic, I agree, but it's a mechanic that only practically affects one class of ships, and it's a huge reason why there are so many running around (so no they're not fairly acquired, because they're still around when they should be dead). If not for the logoff mechanic, either the NC or the DRF would have lost all their supers in the first few fights, and AAA woulda killed off RA in Tenerifis.

[Vinata]

There is always going to be something that is perceived as OP. Ever heard people bitching about being Gustav'd? Its a anti-tank rocket launcher ANTI-TANK yet people use it against dudes. Know what you do , get a Gustav and shoot that fag first.

So how long does it take to train into a Gustav? How much does it cost to acquire in game? What game are we talking about? How much more effort must you put into acquiring a gustav than another gun?

[Manny]

Manny, what's the BFG in Street Fighter 4? What about Marvel vs Capcom 3? Skullgirls? Mortal Kombat Please tell me what the BFGs are in these games which are exclusively PvP.

Vinata nobodies holding you hostage go play some "not a terrible game without a BFG"


?"eve's a bad mmo, really bad, it's only saving grace is the people playing it, which i guess doesn't say great things about the people playing other MMOs"

[Vinata]

o

Vinata nobodies holding you hostage go play some "not a terrible game without a BFG"

That's not an answer to my question, which regards your argument. What are the BFGs in those PvP games? You claim every other PvP game has a BFG, so surely fighting games do to.

[Malcanis]

So the only PVP should be subcap vs subcap and the guy that brings the most will most likely win hey? You know there is other positions besides missionary?

Leaving aside the blatantstrawman, and your not very subtle attempt to insinuate the fallacy of the excluded middle (either Titans are awesome vs everything or else they're useless!!!)... how would that be worse than "the only PvP should be supercap vs supercap and the guy that brings the most will win?"

Seriously manny, are you happy with the current state of 0.0? Do you think that things are as they should be? Has the massive supercap hegemony made 0.0 more fun or less fun, do you think? Feel free to use the freefalling PCU numbers to prove that supers should remain omnicapable and that it's a good and sensible idea to require any alliance that actually wants to play the sov game to be able to field dozens of titan and many dozens of supercarriers.

As I said earlier, there is currently an inexorable trend for a sov-holding alliance to require it's members to br able to field a supercapital. If you can't bring at least a Nyx, and you're not actively in the process of acquiring one, then you are essentially dead weight. I've asked this question over and over, but none of the anti-nerf brigade seem to be willing to give a straight answer, probably because they know that an honest answer would wreck their argument:

Do you think that being able to field a supercapital is a reasonable minimum requirement for a player to be in a sov-holding alliance?

[Centra]

I think the fundamental issue we all know and understand is that CCP made a stupid game, but we (well some) can't stop playing.

[Vinata]

Manny, just in case you aren't keeping track of your own argument, let me sum up how it appears to others

1.) You think that titans are the BFGs of EVE
2.) You have decided that titans are the BFGs of EVE because they are very powerful, allow a small group to dominate, and take a lot of time, effort, and skill to use.
3.) In doing so you defined BFGs as being powerful things which allow a person/small group of people to dominate and are balanced by their cost/effort to obtain
4.) You then claimed, and I quote, "LITERALLY EVERY PVP GAME HAS A BFG."

So I am asking you now, what the BFGs in these other games are. What are the BFGs in fighting games? They are undeniably PvP games, so according to you they should have BFGs. Can you name some? FPS are also PvP games and the originator of the term "BFG". Surely you can name the BFGs in some of the popular games - keeping in mind that you defined a BFG as being hard to get (through cost, effort or a mix of both) and requiring skill to use.

If you can't tell us what the BFGs are in these games, your argument that EVE should have titans because all PVP games have BFGs falls apart. You'll have to think up a new argument.

[tgr]

Biggest baddest motherfucking gun.

BECAUSE LITERALLY EVERY PVP GAME HAS A BFG.

Ok, I'm seeing that you don't understand the concept of "balance" and "designed roles".

The good thing about Eve like everyother game is you too can have a BFG now quit the crying and get a BFG if you cba to put the effort forward to get a BFG don't demand mine take away because you are a scrub.

I'm not demanding that your "BFG" is taken away, I'm just demanding that it's given a specific role, just like every other ship in the game. What you're seeing now is that CCP seems to be focusing the supercaps even further into being an anti-capital weapon, and away from a "blap everything". In other words, given the correct circumstances they will still change the tide of a battle, they're just not going to be the only answer.

Also, didn't anyone teach you punctuation?

Yeah hard to have a comeback to common sense hey?

Heh. That's a good one. A real knee-slapper. Keep going.

[Manny]

o

That's not an answer to my question, which regards your argument. What are the BFGs in those PvP games? You claim every other PvP game has a BFG, so surely fighting games do to.

You are trying to box me into a question that will support your argument but what you don't take into account is those fighting games afaik are 1v1 and yes there is no BFG. Eve PVP isn't relegated to the confines of 1v1 its dynamic and the more dynamic the better. Should be fights of supers against subs Bombers against BS BS vs Frigs. For every possible setup there is a counter. For instance Goons if they would use there 500 man alpha fleet in conjunction with supercaps they could counter a PL superfleet. However in most every instance you guys never do for one reason or the other. If you aren't willing to nut up then don't be mad when you get beaten handedly by people who will put the gear on the field it takes to win.

[tgr]

If you aren't willing to nut up then don't be mad when you get beaten handedly by people who will put the gear on the field it takes to win.

~bmerc sends his regards~

[Vinata]

You are trying to box me into a question that will support your argument but what you don't take into account is those fighting games afaik are 1v1 and yes there is no BFG.

So according to Manny, Player Vs Player games only count as Player Vs Player games only count when there is more than one player on each side.

For instance Goons if they would use there 500 man alpha fleet in conjunction with supercaps they could counter a PL superfleet. However in most every instance you guys never do for one reason or the other. If you aren't willing to nut up then don't be mad when you get beaten handedly by people who will put the gear on the field it takes to win.

I don't play in 0.0 and I do not have the ability to make any decisions at all (let alone at a tactical level) in Goonswarm. I might as well not even be considered in Goonswarm. Actually, I'm currently not.

e: Still haven't addressed recent FPS games, with regards to overpowered guns that are hard to acquire and require skill to use properly.

[ripper van]

Sell me on this idea. Why should a small alliance be able to effectively counter a huge alliance in sov warfare. Why should the efforts of 100 be able to thwart the efforts of 500? Serious question, why shouldn't the 100 just set their sights to a target more appropriate for their size instead of giving them super pimped out ships to somehow "level the playing field" just because they are rich?

simply, because having the biggest horde of scrubs should not be the priority of the game

[Manny]

Ok, I'm seeing that you don't understand the concept of "balance" and "designed roles".

Supercaps do have a role. Have you flown a titan and see how hard they hit other caps versus what they hit a BS for? Do you realize how they have to be fit in order to hit a BS well? Even after this rebalance we will still be stroking BS for the same damage. The DD change just means we dont have to wait 10 minutes to jump out from blapping a logi the result will be the same. Supers role is they Kill capitals and grind sov/stations more efficiently than anything else. However if fit for the purpose they can do major damage to subcaps.

I'm not demanding that your "BFG" is taken away, I'm just demanding that it's given a specific role, just like every other ship in the game. What you're seeing now is that CCP seems to be focusing the supercaps even further into being an anti-capital weapon, and away from a "blap everything". In other words, given the correct circumstances they will still change the tide of a battle, they're just not going to be the only answer.

"Death to all supercaps" isnt that the goon party line?

Also, didn't anyone teach you punctuation?

Was always a math science guy.

[Forward Thinking]

How did Manfred get into PL...

[Vinata]

Was Manny in MC? I remember back when MC was so strong because of their heavy cap presence and then caps began getting slight nerfs and MC became hysterical for the reasons Manny is currently arguing.

[Malcanis]

simply, because having the biggest horde of scrubs should not be the priority of the game

Yes, having the biggest hoard of ISK is far more ~honoure~ and ~elite~ than the biggest horde of scrubs.

[Vinata]

What if you have the biggest hoard of ISK AND the biggest horde of scrubs?

[Manny]

Was Manny in MC? I remember back when MC was so strong because of their heavy cap presence and then caps began getting slight nerfs and MC became hysterical for the reasons Manny is currently arguing.

No I wasn't . What I see is a coalition called the Clusterfuck who uses shear numbers and diplomacy as a way forward in Eve. When that diplomacy or those shear numbers get outmaneuvered they write blogs get elected to CSM and generally do alot of crying. It seems they want to position things in Eve so diplomacy and shear numbers can rule all. To me that seems pretty boring and not very dynamic. That's my real issue its as if its being presented that the only win in 0.0 warfare is to have a giant coalition and great diplomacy. Not that isn't ok but there should be other ways the more the better. This isn't me trying to shit on goons I generally like most everyone in game because its everyone that makes the game possible.

[Malcanis]

Answer the question, Manny.

Do you think that being able to field a supercapital is a reasonable minimum requirement for a player to be in a sov-holding alliance?

[tgr]

simply, because having the biggest horde of scrubs should not be the priority of the game

No, it's not simply about having the biggest horde of scrubs, just having numbers means nothing if they're not even remotely tempered by skill. Just ask IT Alliance how well that worked out for them.

Oh wait...

Supers role is they Kill capitals and grind sov/stations more efficiently than anything else.

Pray tell, is that what they're mostly used for these days?

"Death to all supercaps" isnt that the goon party line?

Yes, it is. Including our own.

[Malcanis]

No I wasn't . What I see is a coalition called the Clusterfuck who uses shear numbers and diplomacy as a way forward in Eve. When that diplomacy or those shear numbers get outmaneuvered they write blogs get elected to CSM and generally do alot of crying. It seems they want to position things in Eve so diplomacy and shear numbers can rule all. To me that seems pretty boring and not very dynamic. That's my real issue its as if its being presented that the only win in 0.0 warfare is to have a giant coalition and great diplomacy. Not that isn't ok but there should be other ways the more the better. This isn't me trying to shit on goons I generally like most everyone in game because its everyone that makes the game possible.

But right about the time people start claiming that they need a ship with 10^8 EHP and a magic omnipotent instalkill weapon in order to fight against ~numbers~ is the time we're entitled to reply "get some more friends".

[ripper van]

No, it's not simply about having the biggest horde of scrubs, just having numbers means nothing if they're not even remotely tempered by skill. Just ask IT Alliance how well that worked out for them.

he asked, why a 500 man alliance should not win against 200 man alliance, he did not say anything about skill but blatantly played the numbers card, which are padded with scrubs if it comes to pure numbers gameplay, thats fact.
In the contrary, I would ask you the question, why should 200 better skilled dudes (supers, 35m SP minimum), not win against 500 dudes in battleships (10-15m SP minimum)?

[haukim]

Poor Manny's gone straight from drakeblob to supercap legion and knows it can only be one or the other

[Malcanis]

he asked, why a 500 man alliance should not win against 200 man alliance, he did not say anything about skill but blatantly played the numbers card, which are padded with scrubs if it comes to pure numbers gameplay, thats fact.
In the contrary, I would ask you the question, why should 200 dudes with more skill invested (supers, 35m SP minimum), not win against 500 dudes in battleships (10-15m SP minimum)?

But right about the time people start claiming that they need a ship with 10^8 EHP and a magic omnipotent instalkill weapon in order to fight against ~numbers~ is the time we're entitled to reply "get some more friends".

[ihaveahelmet]

That explanation is not winning me over. Try again.

You know, by using actual arguments that make sense.

He's actually right on this one, CCP did confirm (a while ago, I agree) that Titans were intended to be nothing less than giant, pixelated phalluses that came in four fancy colours.

[Vile rat]

Supers role is they Kill capitals and grind sov/stations more efficiently than anything else.

I agree. What is a Battleship's role?

[ripper van]

mh, I dont know what to respond, cant recognize any correlation between those 2 quotes. Why is more friends=better? We had this in the past with the NC and clusterfuck and soulcrashing lag as perfect reference and they died poorly despite of "many friends".

[Manny]

Answer the question, Manny.

No it isn't Im saying there should be a multitude of ways to achieve victory and there is.

Zerg

Diplomacy

Subterfuge

Nukes

The more you can add to this the more dynamic things become. Trying to subtract from this detracts from a dynamic environment. I like bedlam and chaos it creates drama and makes things fun and exciting. Remember DHD's Aid Flotilla that shit owned it was different than a typical approach it made things exciting and different. Thats what supercaps represent just as BS fleets represent using different tools in different ways to achieve a desired endstate. Why not embrace the chaos and just try to do better to one up the other guy versus trying to eliminate something because you aren't able/willing/capable to rise to the challenge.

[Omeega]

Please don't nerf my titan THAT bad, think of all the sanctums
tgr, please!

[Manny]

I agree. What is a Battleship's role?

Deals more dps than cruisers has more HP's. However can grind structures can kill supers can kill frigates. It all depends on fittings and application.

Edit - Holy shit BS need a nerf they shouldn't be able to shoot a pos and kill frigates.

[tgr]

He's actually right on this one, CCP did confirm (a while ago, I agree) that Titans were intended to be nothing less than giant, pixelated phalluses that came in four fancy colours.

Yes, that was back when there were, what? 4? in the game? And it was in response to a guy asking why titans were just sitting in a POS bridging or giving gang bonuses.

Then the AOE DD got nerfed because it proved to be too much of an advantage. vOv