CCP Comes Clean

[Hratli Smirks]

I'm still not resubbing hth.

The ultimate problem here is no matter what CCP does or says I don't trust them to communicate their intentions and I don't trust them to fix their game. I came to this conclusion when people were wondering if Mittens was going to tell us to pull up stakes and move to WoT or something when he came back from Iceland and I realized that what was going to happen was the CSM was going to come back and say "its all cool guys its just CCP is bad at talking to human beings they don't intend to add game-affecting MT and they are serious not like when they said they weren't going to add MT last year. CCP has a lot of very smart people running it now despite years of evidence to the contrary don't worry they understand."

This game has been fucked up to various degrees since Dominion, which was roughly 18 months ago. If they haven't been able to solve the problems that players pointed out before they even introduced them into the live game in 18 months, or even look like they understand the problems, then I'm not sure why I should continue to pay them (or rather facilitate someone else paying them on my behalf) on good faith that Some Day they will bring it all together in the fabled fix expansion.

I mean these are the guys who watched a video of 25 titans DDing a carrier and said 'well that is just obviously unacceptably hilariously broken guys dont worry we see it' and their response was to make it so every titan could DD a carrier.

Ultimately me staying in this game just encourages them to keep being useless.

[Malcanis]

Sov (and I guess supers but tbh I dont know enough of that side of the game to tell if they really are broken or it's just whining from the side who has fewer) are fucked up but if you realise that neither of these parts of the game are in any way mandatory then things are actually p. cool and you can have a lot of fun. Lag is a non issue now if you're in the kind of fight were each side only needs one dude with Fleet Commander trained to 4 or 5.

Burn a PLEX, get your shit out of Dek and go to NPC sov or W-space with a half-decent corp, and you'll find that life in EVE is actually quite good fun right now. If CCP would fix Gallante and add 2-3 more large, station-rich NPC regions like Curse and Stain then I'd be pretty much content with it for as long as it takes for them to come up with a not toally horrible sov system (eg: paying Dusties to do it while we sip mojitos, that'd be fine I think)

EDIT: Although obviously there is a "providing they dont shit it up with gold ammo" disclaimer here.

[kyrieee]

How often you can remap is a game design issue. CCP has decided that you can only remap every 12 months and if they want to change that it should be because of game design reasons, not because of monetization reasons. MT should _never_ influence game design.

[Mfume]

You know that feeling you get when you see an advert for something you never knew existed but now you can't live without it?

i do now!

[Iseeyouseemeseeyou]

No, because the number of titans are finite. The limitation on the number of titans isn't SP at this point, it's the number of hulls getting shit out.

And you say I make our alliance look stupid.

[Mfume]

And you say I make our alliance look stupid.

where's your titan bro?

[Iseeyouseemeseeyou]

where's your titan bro?

And you say I am not funny.

[Mfume]

hey man, im just asking since you got skillz for it, where is yours? infinite supply of them, shouldnt be hard to get one v0v

[Iseeyouseemeseeyou]

hey man, im just asking since you got skillz for it, where is yours? infinite supply of them, shouldnt be hard to get one v0v

You have it wrong. The limitation is on the number of sp.

The supply tbh is infinite.

[Razzor]

I'm still not resubbing hth.

The ultimate problem here is no matter what CCP does or says I don't trust them to communicate their intentions and I don't trust them to fix their game. I came to this conclusion when people were wondering if Mittens was going to tell us to pull up stakes and move to WoT or something when he came back from Iceland and I realized that what was going to happen was the CSM was going to come back and say "its all cool guys its just CCP is bad at talking to human beings they don't intend to add game-affecting MT and they are serious not like when they said they weren't going to add MT last year. CCP has a lot of very smart people running it now despite years of evidence to the contrary don't worry they understand."

This game has been fucked up to various degrees since Dominion, which was roughly 18 months ago. If they haven't been able to solve the problems that players pointed out before they even introduced them into the live game in 18 months, or even look like they understand the problems, then I'm not sure why I should continue to pay them (or rather facilitate someone else paying them on my behalf) on good faith that Some Day they will bring it all together in the fabled fix expansion.

I mean these are the guys who watched a video of 25 titans DDing a carrier and said 'well that is just obviously unacceptably hilariously broken guys dont worry we see it' and their response was to make it so every titan could DD a carrier.

Ultimately me staying in this game just encourages them to keep being useless.

This post is literally the reason I stopped subbing before all this drama.

[Faife]

You have it wrong. The limitation is on the number of sp.

The supply tbh is infinite.

you are better than this post.

[Iseeyouseemeseeyou]

you are better than this post.

How is that wrong?

[pinoyzzz]

PL corp in perpetuum is up to 50 dudes now. We are so bad

[Carlton Banks]

Oh cool, a Perpetuum killboard...





with no fittings :/

[Brooks Puuntai]

Oh cool, a Perpetuum killboard...





with no fittings :/

Thats not always a bad thing.

[Hexman]

The CSM helped CCP understand the emotional connection players had with „ship spinning". They vehemently demanded the return of the feature, which CCP committed to introduce in some form at a future date

My faith in Eve has been restored. I totally plan on logging in again (after 3 FULL days of not doing so!)

[Iseeyouseemeseeyou]

Thats not always a bad thing.

Can't see PL's badfits

[Deniera]

I'm still not resubbing hth.The ultimate problem here is no matter what CCP does or says I don't trust them to communicate their intentions and I don't trust them to fix their game. I came to this conclusion when people were wondering if Mittens was going to tell us to pull up stakes and move to WoT or something when he came back from Iceland and I realized that what was going to happen was the CSM was going to come back and say "its all cool guys its just CCP is bad at talking to human beings they don't intend to add game-affecting MT and they are serious not like when they said they weren't going to add MT last year. CCP has a lot of very smart people running it now despite years of evidence to the contrary don't worry they understand."This game has been fucked up to various degrees since Dominion, which was roughly 18 months ago. If they haven't been able to solve the problems that players pointed out before they even introduced them into the live game in 18 months, or even look like they understand the problems, then I'm not sure why I should continue to pay them (or rather facilitate someone else paying them on my behalf) on good faith that Some Day they will bring it all together in the fabled fix expansion. I mean these are the guys who watched a video of 25 titans DDing a carrier and said 'well that is just obviously unacceptably hilariously broken guys dont worry we see it' and their response was to make it so every titan could DD a carrier. Ultimately me staying in this game just encourages them to keep being useless.

Like you didn't already know that Ccp are shit. I continue to play not because of some magical faith in the revs, I play because I find it fun, interesting, dramatic and rewarding. Almost none of which is a credit to CCP, only a credit to the players.

[Combat Scrub]

I'm not one to trust CCP but even I don't think they had malicious intent with the SP distribution tech. Selling SP is just about the most controvesial thing they could ever do and it's more reasonable to assume they implemented the feature with the intent of removing learning skills (which they did).

Pretending that CCP had a long-term plan including the removal of Learning Skills, the Condensation/Removal of Social Skills, and WTF do we do for those people who bought and trained them – a skill distribution tool. Gee, just as we are getting up to speed we need to gain some goodwill for our extended DT on the move. Let's test skill reimbursement publicly!

Also, the fact that CCP won't say something blunt has a lot more to do with what is the line in the sand for MT (for me it is items that are created from nothing and can't ever be destroyed).

(warning, small wall of text)
The simple fact that an item purchased in NeX can then be resold on the standard EVE marketplace means any item will eventually make it into the EVE economy. My position is that anything in the EVE economy should have some component of player interaction in its creation - whether it is raw minerals, PI output, or a manufacturing slot in a station, things that exist in EVE should come from the players in some way. So I don't care if you get an Ishukone Watch Scorpion - as long as you had to provide a standard Scorpion hull in the process (minerals or BPCs bring up too many variations on a theme in my opinion, too much work for CCP to get it right).

I don't care about Aurum for SP, or Aurum for remaps because the difference between buying a character on the Bazaar and buying SP/remaps for Aurum is too gray an area - everything in character training is NPC generated anyway (other than time), so no real impact on the economy.

Those are my opinions, and at least 50% of you disagree. That's why CCP won't simply say no to the game-altering MT. Some of you think of what you would do with a SC or Titan pilot you skilled perfectly with Aurum, and how deadly/useful that might be, others of you realize that it would lead to more comedy Titan/SC ganks. There is no obvious line to be drawn, so CCP will dance along it trying to find exactly what they can and can't get away with. CCP can't say absolutely NO because someone will disagree with the line they have set (or some percentage of players) and another ragefest will ensue.

On a side note, I have discovered this week that it is not cost effective to train an alt for sale in the Bazaar. Going prices on 1-year old PvP focused toons is about 3 billion ISK - and based on the ISK/PLEX conversion that is only 4 months of gametime, so it's more cost effective to buy than sell on the Bazaar (for 1-year old PvP toons).

[Vile rat]

I mean these are the guys who watched a video of 25 titans DDing a carrier and said 'well that is just obviously unacceptably hilariously broken guys dont worry we see it' and their response was to make it so every titan could DD a carrier.

ahhahah I never saw it from this perspective before.

That's it, now I'm totally against titans being in this game.

[Grath]

That's it, now I'm totally against titans being in this game.

I never understood this, there is 0 chance CCP remove them from game, and 0 chance they are nerfed to uselessness, so what exactly are people waiting for.

They are literally the last great personal isk sink in the game, and CCP will never remove them otherwise their vet player base has nothing left to train for.

I'm sorry you guys hate them so much but short of Mynas running around shouting ONE HUNDRED DAYS like some spastic retard there's nothing really ever going to be done to completely remove them, or neuter them to a level goons will find acceptable.

You should really just get with the program and build them yourselves, idgi, you're like TITANS R BAD but theres absolutely NOTHING stopping you from building them yourselves, the 'unskilled noobies' thing kinda wore off years ago, you have been in this game longer than many alliances, why not just fucking build a super fleet and get it over with?

[MtA]

why not just fucking build a super fleet and get it over with?

700 men, Battleship wolfpax.

[Iratus]

isk sink

OH GOD NO!

[pinoyzzz]

0 chance they are nerfed to uselessness

nop

[Faife]

i want to suicide ships into titans for massive damage

for the napkin math nerds, how about EHP * speed in m/s as starting point? how many ships would it take to kill a titan then?

[Mira Z]

i want to suicide ships into titans for massive damage

for the napkin math nerds, how about EHP * speed in m/s as starting point? how many ships would it take to kill a titan then?

Do you really want to usher in an era of suicide machariels?

[Faife]

Do you really want to usher in an era of suicide machariels?

yes.

[Agathor]

A phoon or a geddon with a suicide module...

Racing to a titan, ooooohhhh man I am fucking jizzing my pants now.

[Iratus]

make it so that an "explosives" item is necesary, load the cargohold of them to make it stronger.

And the battlebadgers will scream "allahu akbar!"...

[Zakhodit]

But if you like being fucked in the ass? What then?

Don't ask, Don't tell has been repealed so it's really a non issue. As soon as the U.S. gets over its whole God and Country shit and allows anyone to marry anyone, as a true free society should, then...

Oh, sorry, you're were being Facetious. Well, in that case just keep your sub to EVE.

MT should _never_ influence game design.

Should never, but this is CCP. I don't buy into the whole "CCP's long term plan was too.." conspiracy stuff. Have you read about their company policies and office envrionment? More than likely The SP set up and several other design issues were implemented to serve a purpose, and if they felt like it later, allowed them to introduce Microtransactions. CCP looses sight of what they had planned in EVE every time they break for lunch. Communcation is not existant, they have a bloated underpaid staff and there is less guidance than in most failed in game alliances.

Anytime they work on something they likely add several options "just in case" they want to implement something else. An example from another game: Battlefield 2142 had files for things that never once saw the light of day. Just there in case development went that direction. AND those things were implemented in Bad Company 2 (at least on PC). Point is, if they wanted to go full microtransaction, and forgo the whole monthly subscription deal, they could. That doesn't mean they will or won't, it' just possible.

i want to suicide ships into titans for massive damage

for the napkin math nerds, how about EHP * speed in m/s as starting point? how many ships would it take to kill a titan then?

Japanese attacks on US carriers rarely resulted in a sunk ship, however they did inflict massive amounts of damage, effectivly taking the ship out of the fight until it was fixed. So maybe allow only frigate class ships to Divine Wind supercaps but instead of doing damage to shields or armor, do damage to modules, or knock an entire rack out of action. No jump drive? Woopsie.

[Viribus]

There used to be a BS-sized smartbomb mod that would do something like 5000 explosive damage in a 50km radius but it'd destroy the ship. I think it got removed on release or shortly thereafter, I imagine it was hugely exploitable.

[Malcanis]

Do you really want to usher in an era of suicide machariels?

Why on earth would one not want to?

[Kazanir]

I never understood this, there is 0 chance CCP remove them from game, and 0 chance they are nerfed to uselessness, so what exactly are people waiting for.

They are literally the last great personal isk sink in the game, and CCP will never remove them otherwise their vet player base has nothing left to train for.

I'm sorry you guys hate them so much but short of Mynas running around shouting ONE HUNDRED DAYS like some spastic retard there's nothing really ever going to be done to completely remove them, or neuter them to a level goons will find acceptable.

You should really just get with the program and build them yourselves, idgi, you're like TITANS R BAD but theres absolutely NOTHING stopping you from building them yourselves, the 'unskilled noobies' thing kinda wore off years ago, you have been in this game longer than many alliances, why not just fucking build a super fleet and get it over with?

Not like we haven't been building them, but we still think they are bad for about a bajillion reasons and once we have enough of them we'll still want them to be nerfed into the ground rather than running around with our monster truck and shouting, "OLOLOLOLOLOL MY 30 SUPERS CAN KILL YOUR 900 DUDES, MY NIGGERDICK IS FAIR AND BALANCED," at everyone and their dog.

[Mynas]

Not like we haven't been building them, but we still think they are bad for about a bajillion reasons and once we have enough of them we'll still want them to be nerfed into the ground rather than running around with our monster truck and shouting, "OLOLOLOLOLOL MY 30 SUPERS CAN KILL YOUR 900 DUDES, MY NIGGERDICK IS FAIR AND BALANCED," at everyone and their dog.

Fuck that. I want them buffed so that Titans primary weapons can one shot everything with a jump drive .. including supercarriers and other titans. Wouldn't THAT be awesome fun.

---
99 days and counting down

[Comrade Comrade]

Fuck that. I want them buffed so that Titans primary weapons can one shot everything with a jump drive .. including supercarriers and other titans. Wouldn't THAT be awesome fun.

---
99 days and counting down

Motherships have been one shotted by titans before.

[tgr]

Oh god.

[Comrade Comrade]

A single titan at that ;p

[Atticus]

Time Dilation + Goons train for LG Autocannons for their Maels and add Neuts = Dead supers?

[Comrade Comrade]

Fix dumb logoff mechanics = dead supers

Don't think it'd be that hard either.

"If you're scrambled and you log you do not disappear until timer expires AND you are no longer scrammed."

[GreenDaemon]

some specific suicide module would have to be:

• expensive(50+ mil)
• big (100 m3)
• slows the ship down (-30% ish speed reduc)
• identifiable(on special ship, or special effect)
• can only fire on a ship within 500m
• takes 30 sec - 1min to fire (skill based)
• kills the ships that fits it but
• does immense damage, and even greater bonus damage to supers (15k-20k base, 30k-40k vs supers? takes about 150 to kill a titan)

Makes it based on pilot skill (ability to protect suicide ships & position of warp-in's), still cost-effective (about 6-7b lost to kill a titan), and stressful for both parties involved

also makes still nice for empire ganking

[ocrumsprug]

I see the Corollary to Godwin's Law, where all Eve Online threads eventually become a nerf supercapital thread hasn't been disproved yet.

[Malcanis]

I see the Corollary to Godwin's Law, where all Eve Online threads eventually become a nerf supercapital thread hasn't been disproved yet.

Yeah it's almost like there's some kind of problem there.

[GreenDaemon]

Yeah it's almost like there's some kind of problem there.

Balance issues with supercaps? In my EVE?

[Kazanir]

To reiterate, the core problem of supercaps is that the only true counter to a grip of them is a larger fistful. Nothing else in EVE is like that. If you want a ship class that is a large ISK sink, is bigger than a capital, and can do cooler shit than capitals or be large and badass, then sure. But those things need to have weaknesses. Dreads and carriers are awesome but balanced ships. They have weaknesses defined by triage mode, siege mode, and comparatively low (and thus killable) EHP that supercapitals do not share. Supercaps either need major siege-mode-like weaknesses, major DPS and EHP nerfs, or significant diminishing returns from bringing a fistful of them.

[Vile rat]

They are literally the last great personal isk sink in the game, and CCP will never remove them otherwise their vet player base has nothing left to train for.

I don't see why this is a concern at all. I'm not concerned about it! Isk sinks are easy to create, they just seem to be impossible for past CCP devs to create without fucking over non overly rich vets.

I'm sorry you guys hate them so much but short of Mynas running around shouting ONE HUNDRED DAYS like some spastic retard there's nothing really ever going to be done to completely remove them, or neuter them to a level goons will find acceptable.

Or, you elect people to the CSM who feel they need to be rebalanced and encourage them to lobby like hell.

You should really just get with the program and build them yourselves, idgi, you're like TITANS R BAD but theres absolutely NOTHING stopping you from building them yourselves, the 'unskilled noobies' thing kinda wore off years ago, you have been in this game longer than many alliances, why not just fucking build a super fleet and get it over with?

Because I'd be arguing for their rebalancing even if it was us that were running around with unbeatable low skill smug cannons because they are not good for this game.

[Viribus]

You guys are trolling me with all this talk of "isk sinks". I need to leave this thread.

[Vile rat]

You guys are trolling me with all this talk of "isk sinks". I need to leave this thread.

Probably. You can safely ignore anybody who argues in favor of a suspect feature by claiming isk sink status. That's just a retarded argument.

[Carlton Banks]

Haha suicide modules is the fotp? God, you guys. God.

[Comrade Comrade]

To reiterate, the core problem of supercaps is that the only true counter to a grip of them is a larger fistful.

Totally unproven. Singular supercaps or just a few have been killed many times with just subcaps. And as you mentioned a "grip" has never really been taken on with just supercaps and a few hictors (and won at least :P). It's always had a supcap support fleet. I strongly feel like a large group of dreads could taken on a decent sized of supercaps (hell get enough dreads and you'll alpha supercaps :P).

[Vile rat]

Totally unproven. Singular supercaps or just a few have been killed many times with just subcaps. And as you mentioned a "grip" has never really been taken on with just supercaps and a few hictors (and won at least :P). It's always had a supcap support fleet. I strongly feel like a large group of dreads could taken on a decent sized of supercaps (hell get enough dreads and you'll alpha supercaps :P).

Nope. If you have roughly 50~ supercarriers and 10 titans (average what we've been seeing if not a little low) you'll just have a shitload of dead dreads.