The Generic Bitch / Boast About CCP Changes Thread

[Grath]

The problem with that is that it takes a while for strategies and fleet compositions to be developed, so rapid incremental tweaks may prove hard to assess - look at how at AHAC or Sentry Domi or Drake fleets looked to be the be all and end all of PvP at various points last year until somebody came along with a valid counter. Until the various theorycrafters finish yelling at each other and come to a consensus, their corp/alliance/coalition leaders accept the case, and the pilots all crosstrain into the necessary hulls and weapons, you're not going to see the results on the battlefield.

If anything, it could serve to stifle fleet evolution, because if balance between ships and modules is constantly shifting everyone would be waiting to see if next week's incremental tweak will nerf their opponent's fleet doctrine or boost their own, rather than accepting that what they have isn't working and fix it.

Yea, this is essentially what they do in WoW, and its fucking terrible and would never translate to EVE right, since what you change today, in almost every possible instance, doesn't trickle down for six months minimum, and more often than not, a full year can pass.

HOWEVER

I'm willing to cut them some fucking slack on Hybrid turrents and Gallente ships.

Knock the fucking ball out of the park, skew them so far into over powered that its fucking retarded (like they did with the cynabal and dram) and then tweak it back a few notches when the obvious spots pop up.

I mean they are REALLY FUCKING BAD GET IT.

[Thrak Tokah]

Yea, this is essentially what they do in WoW, and its fucking terrible and would never translate to EVE right, since what you change today, in almost every possible instance, doesn't trickle down for six months minimum, and more often than not, a full year can pass.

HOWEVER

I'm willing to cut them some fucking slack on Hybrid turrents and Gallente ships.

Knock the fucking ball out of the park, skew them so far into over powered that its fucking retarded (like they did with the cynabal and dram) and then tweak it back a few notches when the obvious spots pop up.

I mean they are REALLY FUCKING BAD GET IT.

CCP can't hear your over the sound of all the fapping they're doing about how awesome their new Vampire MMO is going to be, right after DUST 514 totally crushes the console FPS market.

Considering all the noise we've heard about their snazzy thin client and ability simulate fights, how about just setting a couple of those tests up with a bunch of blaster megas v. whatever to crunch the numbers?

EDIT: I don't know if this was already posted, but apparently cap ships can't use Titan bridges now. Working as intended?

[Grath]

EDIT: I don't know if this was already posted, but apparently cap ships can't use Titan bridges now. Working as intended?

Jump bridges are unusable by ships with jump drives, so I'd say yea.

[Nirgal]

And Titan pilots everywhere breath a sigh of relief, free from their parasitic supercarrier freeloaders.

[tgr]

Jump bridges are unusable by ships with jump drives, so I'd say yea.

Good thing they mentioned that beforehand, eh?

[Quesa]

And Titan pilots everywhere breath a sigh of relief, free from their parasitic supercarrier freeloaders.

Dude, coms was awesome the last time a few carriers jumped through Titan portal.

"DUDE WTF JUST HAPPENED TO MY TOPES?"

[Snake]

wtf lame.

So long bridging a triage carriers into battle they land with full cap.

[fulis]

wtf lame.

So long bridging a triage carriers into battle they land with full cap.

Huh? What'd they change about Titan bridges? I'm not really keeping up

[Quesa]

Huh? What'd they change about Titan bridges? I'm not really keeping up

I think we are all assuming that they follow the same rules that apply to Jump Bridges, which means you can't use the portal if your ship has a Jump Drive, save Black Ops.

[Nirgal]

Used to be that you could bridge capitals through a Titan portal so that they arrived with full cap.

[Malcanis]

Good thing they mentioned that beforehand, eh?

Oh tush, CCP know we love a surprise.

EDIT: And tbh, it does make sense from a consistency point of view.

[Brooks Puuntai]

Think its just a bug tbh. Same way that t3 with the covert ops sub can't use BO bridge post patch. CCP has away of screwing things up horribly.

[Malcanis]

Think its just a bug tbh. Same way that t3 with the covert ops sub can't use BO bridge post patch. CCP has away of screwing things up horribly.

Why is it "terrible"? It seems sensible and consistent to me. Or do you mean that CCP are terrible for not making it explicit in the patch notes?

[Brooks Puuntai]

Why is it "terrible"? It seems sensible and consistent to me. Or do you mean that CCP are terrible for not making it explicit in the patch notes?

I don't think it was actually intended, thats why I mentioned the t3 issue. I'm not really saying the change was horrible but CCP is horrible at trying to change one thing and unintentionally screwing up anything thats related.

[Malcanis]

I don't think it was actually intended, thats why I mentioned the t3 issue. I'm not really saying the change was horrible but CCP is horrible at trying to change one thing and unintentionally screwing up anything thats related.

Ah OK. Well I'm gonna go with saying that they should update the patch notes or whatever and keep that change as is.

[tgr]

T3s as well?

[Snake]

So I had my industry alt logged in last night, and I have to say the BPO/BPC is pretty awesome. I found a bunch of BPO's I didn't even know I had. The only thing that sucks is you cant sort by type and separate the BPO's from BPC's. Looks like I'm going to spend most of my weekend going through 10k blueprints.

[Brooks Puuntai]

T3s as well?

From what I understand Covert Sub T3 can't use BO portal post patch. However I don't have confirmation and I think its a bug.

So I had my industry alt logged in last night, and I have to say the BPO/BPC is pretty awesome. I found a bunch of BPO's I didn't even know I had. The only thing that sucks is you cant sort by type and separate the BPO's from BPC's. Looks like I'm going to spend most of my weekend going through 10k blueprints.

Yeah now with being able to distinguish BPCs from BPOs makes sorting through shit a whole lot easier. Might even start back up my t2 line, maybe even do some t3.

[Malcanis]

T3s as well?

No, I'm blind and I completely blanked the "T3" part of the sentence. Derp. Ofc covert T3s should be able to use black ops portals.

[Gyncognito]

What I'd like to see is the reasoning behind ccp's shift in focus. The reality is that alot of this and the anom nerf are both a 180 on last years stated goals making 0.0 more attractive to new players/small alliances. It's been stated over and over that most of these issues don't seriously affect us bitter vets. The reasons are legion and well documented. The practical result is that many aspect of 0.0 life are becoming harder for the noob...unless they plan to do alot of gate camping.

So, you who lobby for more opportunities to gate camp...seriously? GTFO. I'd rather drink battery acid on fire while running anoms in a t1 fitted drake. You're being placated here. None of this was about small gang pvp. It was about shutting you up in your demands for small gang pvp objectives. So by accepting 'NOW WE CAN GATE CAMP JB TRAINS!' you're selling us all short.

Just remember that when you look at those 2014 goals and don't find what you're seeking.

[Malcanis]

What I'd like to see is the reasoning behind ccp's shift in focus. The reality is that alot of this and the anom nerf are both a 180 on last years stated goals making 0.0 more attractive to new players/small alliances. It's been stated over and over that most of these issues don't seriously affect us bitter vets. The reasons are legion and well documented. The practical result is that many aspect of 0.0 life are becoming harder for the noob...unless they plan to do alot of gate camping.

So, you who lobby for more opportunities to gate camp...seriously? GTFO. I'd rather drink battery acid on fire while running anoms in a t1 fitted drake. You're being placated here. None of this was about small gang pvp. It was about shutting you up in your demands for small gang pvp objectives. So by accepting 'NOW WE CAN GATE CAMP JB TRAINS!' you're selling us all short.

Just remember that when you look at those 2014 goals and don't find what you're seeking.

This again.

Anoms got nerfed because they were a massive uncontrollable ISK-gusher. The "make some space worth more than other space" thing was basically a secondary consideration at best. CCP have finally decided to start acting on the fact that the EVE economy is borked. As I posted in the Rubicon thread, anom upgrades were a terrible, lazy way to upgrade space that were massively exploited by terrible lazy people. CCP responded to the concern that the economic carrying capacity of 0.0 is far too low (which was good) but the did it in a typically half-finished, half-assed Team :AWESOME: way (which was bad). If CCP had done the good, sensible way of upgrading nullsec by doing stuff like buffing outposts, allowing multiple outposts per system, nerfing hi-sec industry & refining a little, fixing the POS interface so that people would rather use a POS than feed their nuts to wild dogs, increasing plex density, and maybe even adding something like anoms but which weren't so blatantly mindless and exploitable, then everybody would be happy. But no, they did a shitty job and now they're going to have to do it all over again, plus they have to deal with 30,000 sanctum-junkies going cold turkey.

Incidentally, it's worth remembering that there are still a god damb lot of systems which are just as good as they were before, and some are even better. People are acting like CCP has made making ISK in 0.0 worse than it has ever been, when actually it's still far better than it ever was before Dominion. In a word, they got spoiled. They got hooked on easy Sanctum ISK, whoring away hour after hour in the ratting Nyxes, fountaining ever more fantastic amounts of ISK. Now they're like junkies whining for their ISK fix "oh boo hoo a bloo hoo hoo, it's LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE to survive in 0.0 unless you can make 2 bill a week". Yeah, no, sorry, not buying it.

Speaking of terrible lazy people, they're also the ones crying about the JB change, crying like an orphan who just saw the puppy that was his only friend get run over by an 18-wheeler truck. These people are trying to seriously advance the idea that having to make 2 warps between each bridge instead of one will kill 0.0 and drive out 90% of the population. Because yeah 9 session changes to cross a region instead of 6 is just too god damb many, OK?

If you're not getting a mental image of a teenager with a ring through his lip calling his mother a fascist because she's made him take the garbage out twice this week, then I'm not properly communicating my feelings about these guys. Seriously, even after the change, JBs will be an incredible advantage to the sov holder, and the people who are trying to pretend that they're going to be useless white elephants are frankly lying.

[jimmychrist]

The level fours are also pouring isk into the economy, but they got buffed. Imagine that.

Also, I think the jump bridge changes are largely dumb and stupid. Not because they will kill nullsec (they won't) but because they will not result in more non-consensual pvp as CCP intends.

[Malcanis]

The level fours are also pouring isk into the economy, but they got buffed. Imagine that.

Also, I think the jump bridge changes are largely dumb and stupid. Not because they will kill nullsec (they won't) but because they will not result in more non-consensual pvp as CCP intends.

Le sigh. OK level 4s. Yes, they're a horrible stain on the game. But they do at least have the merit of being a wealth fountain more than an ISK fountain. The LP store soaks up a massive proportion of the ISK generated, so about half the reward from missioning (maybe more depending on how smart you are at converting LP to ISK) is actually items, not raw ISK. The point being that with the anoms, CCP actually managed to make a form of PvE that was more mindless and more economically damaging than hi-sec level 4s. Quite an achievement if you think about it.

And oddly enough, the recent mission change added a bit more risk - the new mission hubs will be in 0.5s. Figure it out.

But that's besides the point. What you're trying to say is "they shouldn't fix a problem in 0.0 because hi-sec is also broken". Well I don't buy that. I also dont think that CCP are going to leave missions in their current state, and neither should you.

Read the comments in the QEN. Look at the hints in the CSM summit minutes. CCP think that there's too much ISK in the game and too much wealth as well. All income sources are going to get a nerf, I reckon. It's just that they reined back 0.0 first.

[Malcanis]

Ironically, the effect of this on my personal gameplay is that I'm urgently abusing all these overpowered ISK/wealth sources, before they get nerfed so hard they have to go through puberty again. Gotta build up a buffer, you know.

[jimmychrist]

But that's besides the point. What you're trying to say is "they shouldn't fix a problem in 0.0 because hi-sec is also broken". Well I don't buy that. I also dont think that CCP are going to leave missions in their current state, and neither should you.

Read the comments in the QEN. Look at the hints in the CSM summit minutes. CCP think that there's too much ISK in the game and too much wealth as well. All income sources are going to get a nerf, I reckon. It's just that they reined back 0.0 first.

I'm trying to say that the left hand don't know shit about what the right hand is doing. And as for me putting faith in CCP coming through on the rest of the economic rebalancing, you're directly contradicting yourself from 24 minutes ago, a simpler time and place in which

CCP responded to the concern that the economic carrying capacity of 0.0 is far too low (which was good) but the did it in a typically half-finished, half-assed Team :AWESOME: way (which was bad).

[Malcanis]

I'm trying to say that the left hand don't know shit about what the right hand is doing. And as for me putting faith in CCP coming through on the rest of the economic rebalancing, you're directly contradicting yourself from 24 minutes ago, a simpler time and place in which

One might hope that CCP have learned a few lessons since December 2009.

It's also more evident than ever that CCP are not a unified, homogenous organisation.

[Combat Scrub]

Le sigh. OK level 4s. Yes, they're a horrible stain on the game.
...
And oddly enough, the recent mission change added a bit more risk - the new mission hubs will be in 0.5s. Figure it out.
...
Read the comments in the QEN. Look at the hints in the CSM summit minutes. CCP think that there's too much ISK in the game and too much wealth as well. All income sources are going to get a nerf, I reckon. It's just that they reined back 0.0 first.

On a side note, as I'm not able to log in for more than 30-45 minutes at a time, it seems that the average ISK payout is actually lower on (at least courier) missions. Anyone else pay attention to the actual rewards and notice if there has been a reduction? I didn't have the social skills so it wasn't a skills nerf for me - just a literal about 15-20% reduction in raw ISK rewards. Just my bad memory, or has the ISK reward been scaled down so you have to be in 0.5 systems to get the L4 Q20 value from before?

[Nirgal]

Did you retrain your connections skills?

[Dr Cheeto]

There is really not much point in spending time and money acquiring, holding, and upgrading 0.0, is there? Between this and then anomaly nerf, we'd probably make more money and have more fun just living in NPC Delve.

[Scotch]

I'm curious to see if the attempts to balance result in greater imbalance in the end. I suppose only time will tell.

[tgr]

This again.

Anoms got nerfed because they were a massive uncontrollable ISK-gusher.

So they were essentially replaced with incursions which are also gushing isk.

What they could've done to limit the isk inflasion (if they absolutely must make people rat (fuck ratting forever)) is make the isk bounties into some sort of module that must be sold to players. Not that I personally care, because fuck ratting forever.

And again, as to the JB, if they'd waited with the change until they had something positive to add along with the beating, and it would probably have gone down a lot better. I don't use JBs much and I'm still going "seriously, CCP, what the fuck".

[Malcanis]

So they were essentially replaced with incursions which are also gushing isk.

What they could've done to limit the isk inflasion (if they absolutely must make people rat (fuck ratting forever)) is make the isk bounties into some sort of module that must be sold to players. Not that I personally care, because fuck ratting forever.

And again, as to the JB, if they'd waited with the change until they had something positive to add along with the beating, and it would probably have gone down a lot better. I don't use JBs much and I'm still going "seriously, CCP, what the fuck".

At least Incursions have an LP component, and a significant one at that. Seriously, Incursions are great, but they're just not the same as sanctums and you know it.

This is called CCP learning their lesson.


Yeah I know. baby steps.

[Malcanis]

On a side note, as I'm not able to log in for more than 30-45 minutes at a time, it seems that the average ISK payout is actually lower on (at least courier) missions. Anyone else pay attention to the actual rewards and notice if there has been a reduction? I didn't have the social skills so it wasn't a skills nerf for me - just a literal about 15-20% reduction in raw ISK rewards. Just my bad memory, or has the ISK reward been scaled down so you have to be in 0.5 systems to get the L4 Q20 value from before?

My mission alt is in a 0.6 and he's getting about a 1/8th increase in rewards.

[Snake]

Are there any corps that are dedicated to running incursions like WH corps? I want to try them with my alt but I haven't seen any organized groups dedicated to them.

[tgr]

At least Incursions have an LP component, and a significant one at that. Seriously, Incursions are great, but they're just not the same as sanctums and you know it.

For one, they're not as easily bottable?

This is called CCP learning their lesson.

Yeah I know. baby steps.

I wouldn't complain if that baby was ginormous so we'd get there quicker. Not for my sake, but for the scrubs who are still trying to grind up cash.

[Combat Scrub]

Did you retrain your connections skills?

I didn't have the social skills so it wasn't a skills nerf for me?

[tgr]

Jesus christ on a stick how difficult can it possibly be to make the damn standings survive a jump/titan bridge?

[Brooks Puuntai]

Jesus christ on a stick how difficult can it possibly be to make the damn standings survive a jump/titan bridge?

??? What are you venting about?

edit: Also the Covert T3 issue was confirmed a CCP fuckup.

That's not a QA issue, it's a design issue - I forgot about covops subsystems when I was speccing out the changes, and the "exhaustive" list I gave our testers didn't include them. There's a boring technical reason why I didn't catch it in review but essentially this is entirely my fault. I've just fixed it internally, but I can't guarantee when exactly it will hit TQ, sorry.

[tgr]

Don't tell me you've never had blues turn up neutral after a JB or TB.

[Brooks Puuntai]

Don't tell me you've never had blues turn up neutral after a JB or TB.

Ah yeah.. Thought you might be talking about something that got changed/fucked up with the patch.

[tgr]

No, it's something I fume about every fucking time I go on ops.

[Kireiina]

There is really not much point in spending time and money acquiring, holding, and upgrading 0.0, is there? Between this and then anomaly nerf, we'd probably make more money and have more fun just living in NPC Delve.

Money moons and super-caps. Leading to the probable situation where we have a relatively small number of alliances, with a very large number of super-caps, feuding over null-sec while alliances who can't compete at that level bail.

I think CCP are just stirring the pot. They know there's a lot of work to do in Eve but they also need to get WoD/Dust released so they stop sucking the company dry. So small and quick changes that make it look like they're focused on Eve and sledgehammer something they can see as a definite problem.

[Sansa Comfrey]

One quick way to making Sov more desirable would be to limit placing posses to systems you have sov in (not including lowsec or npc 0.0). Much of sov 0.0 only works if sov is something you want to have, and want to have more of.

[Xallen]

What they could've done to limit the isk inflasion (if they absolutely must make people rat (fuck ratting forever)) is make the isk bounties into some sort of module that must be sold to players. Not that I personally care, because fuck ratting forever.

Not for my sake, but for the scrubs who are still trying to grind up cash.

Proof schizophrenia is a real and growing problem in our society. Poor scrubs, let them grind up isk! Just not on rats, or something, or..wait, whut?

[tgr]

Proof schizophrenia is a real and growing problem in our society. Poor scrubs, let them grind up isk! Just not on rats, or something, or..wait, whut?

Which part of those posts were inconsistent?

[Mynt]

I seriously dislike what CCP did to the broadcast history. Seriously, what the fuck? I can't even begin to fathom where the improvements are supposed to be vis-á-vis the old one. I can't wait for that one time when some spy begins broadcasting random targets en masse and we're left sitting there spinning our dicks.

[Brooks Puuntai]

Proof schizophrenia is a real and growing problem in our society. Poor scrubs, let them grind up isk! Just not on rats, or something, or..wait, whut?

Think what tgr is trying to say is that CCP does need to find other good ways for players to generate isk and possibly a decent amount of it. Especially in null. However they need to do so in away that actually requires some :: on the players part, as well as make it less mind numbing then shooting the same rats 10k times and just milking bounties.

[Nooodz]

One quick way to making Sov more desirable would be to limit placing posses to systems you have sov in (not including lowsec or npc 0.0). Much of sov 0.0 only works if sov is something you want to have, and want to have more of.

That would be an awful mechanic, ever heard of staging towers?


Also how would anybody get fights, you need to take sov to put a tower on a tech moon, The NC would just let people destroy towers and then put a new one up as the invaders couldn't put their own up.

[Malcanis]

Which part of those posts were inconsistent?

Because the only way people can make ISK is to smoosh an endless, predictable, massively accessible supply of red crosses, you see.

[tgr]

Because the only way people can make ISK is to smoosh an endless, predictable, massively accessible supply of red crosses, you see.

notsureifserious.jpg

Think what tgr is trying to say is that CCP does need to find other good ways for players to generate isk and possibly a decent amount of it. Especially in null. However they need to do so in away that actually requires some :: on the players part, as well as make it less mind numbing then shooting the same rats 10k times and just milking bounties.

Not really what I was getting at, but not far off. It is true that players (especially in null) need to generate isk, but I'm just thinking that it would make much more sense from an RP POV (for those it might concern) that isk doesn't just magically pop out of thin air when you shoot rats in null, it's a module they actually have to haul somewhere and sell. It would also remove some of the isk faucets by making the isk the null dwellers receive something which is provided by other players. If anything they could make it so the better truesec, the rarer the modules dropped, and let the markets balance the prices/rewards.

Personally I'm doing PI on 6 planets and some moon reacting. I'm not ratting. Fuck ratting forever.

Now, I'm still waiting for Xallen's explanation where I said that people should get isk anywhere other than ratting. I'm suspecting he's over-focused on the "fuck ratting forever" part of my post, which is my personal opinion on how :awesome: and :fun: ratting is, and not in any way, shape or form a "CCP, please remove ratting forever" request.