Republicans & Democrats: The Glory of the Two Party System

[Fartman]

If I was a little less cultured I would say "LOL U mad bro" and leave it at that. But thats not the kinda person I am.

It is, however, the kind of person I am!

I can't believe you guys are arguing with this moron.

Riots and mob rule are "real democracy" to this guy? lol

[Vinata]

Well technically mob rule is the purest form of democracy, and that's why all modern democracies are basically democratic republics.

[Night]

Mob rule is typically a democratic fig leaf for the charismatic authority of a single person or small group anyways.

[Mira Z]

Let me say that again, America is not perfect. That being said, I am glad I was born here, because from what I see there is no better place to live. Or at the very least no other place signifigantly better.

Norway apparently.

Corporations are also an issue in many countries. Didn't the UK release a terrorist to Libya due to influence of a British company?

I lack the time to explain this properly, but basically, no.

[Walter]

I lack the time to explain this properly, but basically, no.

Oh, alright then.

[Yorda]

If I was a little less cultured I would say "LOL U mad bro" and leave it at that. But thats not the kinda person I am.

America is not perfect. Let me say that again, America is not perfect. That being said, I am glad I was born here, because from what I see there is no better place to live. Or at the very least no other place signifigantly better.

With the voting thing, I did a quick google search and found that the UK on average has 5-10% better turnout than the US, so we are not special in that respect.

And as I have said earlier in this thread, I don't judge the quality of a nation based on how many social programs it has.

Corporations are also an issue in many countries. Didn't the UK release a terrorist to Libya due to influence of a British company?

And I see real democracy as change through elections, which we clearly have :Obama: Democracy isn't people protesting in the street and burning cars every month or 2 like the fucking french do. Thats called a riot bro.

So get off your high horse, maybe come over and see how we live, see what we do, understand our history, and what we have accomplished. I see signs that we are in decline, but I still have hope that we will be able to turn things around. Whine and cry all you want about us sucking, its partially true, but take a minute and wonder what the world would be like if we had never been.

As someone who has lived in the UK, US, and Canada I can say the US is easily the most polarized of the two. While debates about political issues seemed pretty equal to me, most people in the US have a very much "US vs Them" mentality (right vs left) while I find in Canada (and to a lesser extent the UK, my experience there is limited to visiting family there) there is much more ground for compromise and acceptance. The main problem I see in America is the control the media has on information. The amount of shit that goes ignored or is twisted is pretty astounding. I'm not saying it doesn't happen in Canada or the UK, just that it seems to be significantly less of an everyday event.

Most the social programs, tax systems, and political systems I see in Canada feel far superior to American government (only thing I can think of changing is allowing private and public health care but you can always just go to America if you want to pay for it). While America might have been awesome it doesn't mean that you have to sit there and let it decline into ridiculous debt and corpocracy, and even if you think America is the better of all the systems doesn't mean you can't make it better.

What truly astounds me about :Obama: Democracy is that so many people bought the whole ~change~ bullshit. If it wasn't glaringly obvious that the political system is a slow, fractured, multilayer system I'd hope it is now, but most Americans tune into a single, polarized, news source for all their information so I'm sure next election they'll buy the same old "Vote for our candidate for real change" bullshit that accompanies every politician ever.

Note: Not picking on one side of the political system or the other, but rather the whole system as whole.

[Grim]

As a people I don't think we are as divided as it looks. Politicians are certainly divided, as seen by our deeply partisan politics. News services now cater to certain viewpoints, furthering the divide, but the regular people for the most part are not diehard Republicans or Democrats. The main fault in my mind is that party leadership is in the hands of people who are far quite far to the right or left. They drive the agenda and allow little room for compromise. The major issue is the tactics they use. A lot of people say the Republicans are the party of no, and it is partially true. Since the late 80's both parties have found it to be in their own self interest to derail all legislation when out of power. That way they can point to the current president and his allies and talk about how they got nothing accomplished during their term. Of course, this also means that when they are in power they use their majority to push through as much of their agenda as they can without compromise (like the health care bill).

The part that really disgusts me the most is the backgrounds and experience politicans have. One of the senators from my home state of NY, Chuck Schumer has never ever ever had a job outside of politics. He spoke at my college graduation about how as soon as he graduated college he got into politics, meaning he never had a real job. To an extent thats why I don't mind having experts from industry working in government. They have the experience in their fields to do things right, assuming they are not corrupt.

We have a lot of things that are messed up, and it will probably take a major catastrophe like a world war or the government going bankrupt to change anything.

[Night]

As someone who has lived in the UK, US, and Canada I can say the US is easily the most polarized of the two. While debates about political issues seemed pretty equal to me, most people in the US have a very much "US vs Them" mentality (right vs left) while I find in Canada (and to a lesser extent the UK, my experience there is limited to visiting family there) there is much more ground for compromise and acceptance.

The culture war is a sociological myth created by vocal minorities. The truth is that the good folks at Faux News and whatever outlet we're accusing of being left-wing today (honestly none of them come close to Fox in slant, but there are a few with noticeable swings in that direction) are talking shrilly into a niche, not a population. They, and the parties, have deliberately marginalized themselves to create a secure base of power. You cannot depend upon rational people, or even apolitical but irrational people, to vote for you. They will react to things which may not be under your control, or which may otherwise have been long forgotten. Part of the reason that centrists tend to back Democrats in the modern US more often then Republicans is because the Democratic Party has not embraced this pandering to the secure base the same way the Republican Party has.

In essence the American system looks terribly dysfunctional because the people in power are more perceptive than they are in other parts of the world. The UK and Canada have nothing to look forward to; your politicians will catch up eventually.

[Mira Z]

Oh, alright then.

I was leaving for work, here's the full explanation:

The UK government has pretty much no say over Scots law. It's independence is guaranteed by the Act of Union and with a parliament in Edinburgh again most legal things are decided from there.

The decision to release Megrahi was taken by the Scottish justice secretary on compassionate grounds. Partially the pro-indepedence SNP would have wanted to make a distinctively Scottish decision, partially they wanted to stick two fingers up at the then governing in London Labour Party but mostly it was because the guy had terminal cancer.

As an aside, Megrahi dropped his appeal after the decision was made. Since the main prosecution witness is apparently thoroughly discreditted by know, there was a chance it might have succeeded.

[Dwergi]

The madness of the US is that patriotism is so ingrained into every American that most reasonable debates about its glaring flaws essentially devolve into the other party chanting "USA! USA! USA!". It's either that or "America could kick your ass, man!". No other nationality is so convinced of their own superiority, which leads to debates like the ones in this thread, where even metrics proving that the US has lower adult literacy rates, higher poverty, lower life expectancy and lower standards of living than many countries are shouted down.

"They have the experience in their fields to do things right, assuming they are not corrupt."

It's absurd to even consider that possibility given the subsidies that oil companies, car manufacturers, banks and farmers receive - these people should not be allowed anywhere near politics. It's trivially easy to see how much more influential corporations are politically than elsewhere. The problem is that it's institutional and every single incumbent politician is already part of the system of brib... uhh... 'campaign contributions'.

Nothing really needs to be done at this point though - the system will collapse under its own weight soon enough, at which point we might see some actual change.

[Grim]

The madness of the US is that patriotism is so ingrained into every American that most reasonable debates about its glaring flaws essentially devolve into the other party chanting "USA! USA! USA!". It's either that or "America could kick your ass, man!".

We don't even need to say it, its implied that we can kick your ass.

No other nationality is so convinced of their own superiority

Read some history books and the news. There are plenty of other nations that are worse than us. Nazi Germany, WWII Japan, some Islamic countries, even you apparently.

"They have the experience in their fields to do things right, assuming they are not corrupt."

I would rather have someone who has experience in a field like finance, be in charge of our treasury. Just like someone with experience in defense is preferable to head the DOD. Why would you want someone with 0 experience making critical decisions?

Nothing really needs to be done at this point though - the system will collapse under its own weight soon enough, at which point we might see some actual change.

All empires end eventually.

[Yorda]

The culture war is a sociological myth created by vocal minorities. The truth is that the good folks at Faux News and whatever outlet we're accusing of being left-wing today (honestly none of them come close to Fox in slant, but there are a few with noticeable swings in that direction) are talking shrilly into a niche, not a population. They, and the parties, have deliberately marginalized themselves to create a secure base of power. You cannot depend upon rational people, or even apolitical but irrational people, to vote for you. They will react to things which may not be under your control, or which may otherwise have been long forgotten. Part of the reason that centrists tend to back Democrats in the modern US more often then Republicans is because the Democratic Party has not embraced this pandering to the secure base the same way the Republican Party has.

In essence the American system looks terribly dysfunctional because the people in power are more perceptive than they are in other parts of the world. The UK and Canada have nothing to look forward to; your politicians will catch up eventually.

Maybe it was just :Texas: but almost everyone I met was pretty inline with one side or the other and hated the other side. Unlike the US, the UK and Canada have more than two parties so I doubt this will ever happen. (Plus Fox news can't come because we wont overturn a law saying you can't lie on TV).

[Yorda]

We don't even need to say it, its implied that we can kick your ass.

So can any country with nukes kick America's, it doesn't really matter in the current era.

Read some history books and the news. There are plenty of other nations that are worse than us. Nazi Germany, WWII Japan, some Islamic countries, even you apparently.

I think his point was more that most citizens of other modern nations have a realistic understanding of their country's situation, where as most Americans seem ingrained with the idea that they're better than everyone else with no reason why.

I would rather have someone who has experience in a field like finance, be in charge of our treasury. Just like someone with experience in defense is preferable to head the DOD. Why would you want someone with 0 experience making critical decisions?

I agree with you here, either you have people with experience (and inevitably bias) in the fields their governing or you have lifetime politicians. Neither is a particular perfect outcome but it's the inevitable.

All empires end eventually.

All empires end, but not all have to collapse.

[Jed]

So get off your high horse, maybe come over and see how we live, see what we do, understand our history, and what we have accomplished.

I worked in the US for about 6 months on a resources project in Texas. During that time I visited Colorado, California and NYC. I'm also well aware of US history, hence my "the apple has fallen so far from the tree" comment. In recent history (after the 50s) the US has little to be proud of really...

Well technically mob rule is the purest form of democracy, and that's why all modern democracies are basically democratic republics.

This. The closest government to a true functioning democracy would be Switzerland, with their regular referendums and loose federal government. My point is that in the US there doesn't appear to be the collective will of the people to rise up against their government when there are policies that they don't like, or perhaps the government has become too good at manipulating the people? After all the US was born in revolution, Jefferson has a bunch of brilliant quotes to this effect. I think it was he, or one of the other founding fathers that said "revolution is the purest expression of democracy"?

The US has pretty horrible statistics compared to the rest of the western world in quality of life, adult literacy, life expectancy, personal wealth, etc. etc. and yet you're still convinced by the media that everything is going fine.

But hey, the US has the biggest and most expensive war-making machine in the world right, that's gotta count for something?

I would rather have someone who has experience in a field like finance, be in charge of our treasury. Just like someone with experience in defense is preferable to head the DOD. Why would you want someone with 0 experience making critical decisions?

Errr the point of democracy is that the decisions are made by the people, not by someone who has their own interests in the industry to protect. Look at what happens to these politicians when they leave office, they get cushy jobs on the board of directors of these major finance companies as a reward for looking after them (finance industry) while they were in the treasury. I prefer the advisory system, where a politician is representing the people with expert advice from people in industry but the politician has to weigh the advice of the experts against the wellbeing of the people, with healthy transparency and oversight by the people to keep the bastards honest.

I'd pick the guy who wanted to represent their constituents rather than their mates in the industry every time.

The madness of the US is that patriotism is so ingrained into every American that most reasonable debates about its glaring flaws essentially devolve into the other party chanting "USA! USA! USA!". It's either that or "America could kick your ass, man!". No other nationality is so convinced of their own superiority, which leads to debates like the ones in this thread, where even metrics proving that the US has lower adult literacy rates, higher poverty, lower life expectancy and lower standards of living than many countries are shouted down.

Agreed. Having lived in Houston for six months, the Americans that I worked alongside were nice enough people but when you talked about other countries or anything outside America they were perplexed and convinced that they had no need to visit anywhere else because they were in the "best" country. Even in this thread alone you get yanks claiming they're the oldest democracy, or the closest to democracy blah blah blah with no actual founding in reality. Conversations on topics outside of the general US realm revealed a striking lack of education on some of even the most basic topics. Nationalism is so rife in the US, and so incredibly backwards in this day and age of globalisation. I'd go so far as to say that the nationlism on display in the US is almost at the level of a country like North Korea, or Germany before the second world war. In fact I was over there around the time Team America came out and most of the people I talked to didn't even realise that the "America, FUCK YEAH!" song was being sarcastic.

Oh yeah, and don't mention that you're an atheist or that you don't go to church, because you'll be treated like a pariah and talked about behind your back.

[Vinata]

No other nationality is so convinced of their own superiority,

Texas.

I'd go so far as to say that the nationlism on display in the US is almost at the level of a country like North Korea, or Germany before the second world war..

I'd go so far as to say it is worse than Nazi Germany in this aspect. I know many Americans who treat America as their religion. The whole "Ground Zero is sacred ground" argument against building a mosque two blocks away being part of that.

Oh yeah, and don't mention that you're an atheist or that you don't go to church, because you'll be treated like a pariah and talked about behind your back.

This has less to do with America and more to do with the part of it you were in.

[Grim]

I'm an atheist and dont go to church. An angry right wing mob has yet to burn a cross in my yard over it.

[Agathor]

Henry Kissinger once described Iceland as the most arrogant small country he had ever encountered.
http://drezner.foreignpolicy.com/cat...g/small_states

I have been to the USA a few times. They always seem alot nicer then my country men to be honest.
The muslims here have been trying to build a mosque here for decades. They dont even get a permit.
We dont even have the word "please" in our language.

[Fartman]

don't mention that you're an atheist or that you don't go to church, because you'll be treated like a pariah and talked about behind your back.

you're making an assumption that they were responding to you in this way because you're an atheist and you don't go to church.
the reality is they were probably responding to you in this way because you're an asshole.
hope this helps!

[Grim]

I know quite a few people from Texas, and they never let you forget where they are from, and everything is compared to it. Iceland, I had no idea about.

Here is some list of best and worst countries to live in. Iceland beat the UK, but Canada beat the US for #1

http://www.worst-city.com/The-best-a...s-to-avoid.htm

[Fartman]

http://www.worst-city.com/The-best-a...s-to-avoid.htm

japan

[Yorda]

you're making an assumption that they were responding to you in this way because you're an atheist and you don't go to church.
the reality is they were probably responding to you in this way because you're an asshole.
hope this helps!

Agreeing with Fartman, goddamnit. The funny thing about living in Texas was they were some of the nicest people I've ever met (well, aside from Canada). They might look at you funny and think you're dumb for being an atheist but they wont hold it against you.

[Jed]

you're making an assumption that they were responding to you in this way because you're an atheist and you don't go to church.
the reality is they were probably responding to you in this way because you're an asshole.
hope this helps!

The line of causality was quite clear, me and one bloke got along really well when we were working in the field, I had dinner with his family (they were trying to make me feel more at home because I left my family at home) and during dinner they invited me to go to church with them. I said that I didn't follow any religion and that I didn't go to church. The next week he was avoiding me so I confronted him and thanked him for the dinner and asked him why he was now avoiding me (I thought I hadn't been polite enough or something). He calmly said that his congregation did not associate with non-christians... I was utterly astounded. He wasn't the stereotypical dumb redneck either. One of the other guys I worked with said that it was better to say you were christian (even if you weren't) than to admit being atheist (or worse, muslim). I know that not all Americans are like that, but I understand that the portion of people like that isn't exactly insignificant either so I'd recommend travellers just avoid that conversation altogether..

I get your reasoning though, I present an intelligent, reasoned argument coming from my own experiences and logically that makes me an asshole. Tell me, how have you broadened your horizons?

[Fartman]

the funny thing is alot of foreigners - euros mostly - think we're over here just dying to hear them tell us
all about the things they hate about us and our country. they don't realize that we don't really give two
shits what they think (about us, or about anything). the way this guy just swooped in here and started
mashing his keyboard and sperging out about ameriKKKa I can only imagine what he was saying to the
people he talked to in Texas..

If this were to happen to me personally I wouldn't get about it though. If anything i'd be kind of
another satisfied customer! Or if the guy in question was French i'd just be thinking "lol France"

[Fartman]

me and one bloke

pardon me i said asshole i guess i should have said arsehole

[Grim]

So you met some dude who took religion a little too seriously. It must be something in the water. No other part of the world treats their religions as seriously as we do

[Fartman]

i guess this one guy/family he met in a country of ~330m people was a nut. you're allowed to be a nut.
just avoid the nuts v0v

at least you didn't get beheaded!

also u mad ransom?

[Agathor]

He is always mad. Blame me Fartman. We stole all their pretty women 1 k years ago, so now they look like someone drove a belt driven tank over them

[Todd]

FUTURE MINION JED EXHIBITS A TRAIT COMMON TO HUMANITY IN THAT HE BELIEVES SUPERIOR LIFEFORMS TO BE SWAYED BY THE RECOUNTING OF EXPERIENCES UNIQUE TO HIS OWN MEMORY. THE LOCOMOTIVE OF JED'S LOGIC IS STRANDED IN THE TUNNELS OF ANECDOTE WHILE ITS PASSENGERS CHOKE ON CLOUDS OF LEFTIST DEMAGOGUERY AND CANNABIS. JED IS A SLAVE TO EMOTION WHEN HE SHOULD BE A SLAVE TO TODD.

[Fartman]

KNEEL BEFORE TODD

Todd is the best poster on kugutsumen.com right now. Even better than Hratli.

[Jed]

KNEEL BEFORE TODD

Todd is the best poster on kugutsumen.com right now. Even better than Hratli.

Should've known better than to bring religion up in an otherwise serious discussion.

[Grim]

Should've known better than to bring religion up in an otherwise serious discussion.

Dude, you edited your post before I could click that link

[Jed]

I wanted to leave religion alone, because its even more pointless than arguing partisan politics, but it was basically just a poke at intelligent design being taught in US science classrooms showing there's more than just one "religious nut" in the US.

[Grim]

Yeah, but they are not the majority.

[Yorda]

Yeah, but they are not the majority.

63% of Americans support teaching Intelligent Design as an alternative to evolution.

Sixty fucking three percent support teaching utter bullshit based on religion to kids, that's not a minority (82% of republicans too).

[Grim]

63% of Americans support teaching Intelligent Design as an alternative to evolution.

Sixty fucking three percent support teaching utter bullshit based on religion to kids, that's not a minority (82% of republicans too).

Can you link where you saw that. I can see them teaching both just to be open minded about it. The people who piss me off the most are the extremists on both sides, like the whiners who want to take "under god" out of the pledge of allegiance.

[Yorda]

Can you link where you saw that. I can see them teaching both just to be open minded about it. The people who piss me off the most are the extremists on both sides, like the whiners who want to take "under god" out of the pledge of allegiance.

I'm fine with people having religion and believing whatever they want, but evolution is the scientific theory for our origins, there's zero scientific basis for creationism. If you want to be religious that's your choice but you shouldn't barge into science classrooms and demand they teach something that is not science because it doesn't line up with your personal beliefs.

A quick google search leads me to think it's based off this poll and is 62% not 63.

[T7aKubru]

America actually fits in in the middle east and the middle ages.

[Grim]

I am honestly surprised by this. I know some people believe in creationism, but everyone I talked to has favored evolution. I'm gonna go with the reasoning that people in the northeast are less religious and better educated then hicks from Mississippi and Texas.

[Vinata]

Can you link where you saw that. I can see them teaching both just to be open minded about it. The people who piss me off the most are the extremists on both sides, like the whiners who want to take "under god" out of the pledge of allegiance.

That phrase wasn't added until the Cold War, and only as a way to draw another strong distinction between us and those godless Communists. It is also a blatant violation of separation of church and state.

Although really, the whole 'indivisible' thing rankles me more. Last I checked, the United States could easily be divided into 50 states and 4 territories.

edit:

I am honestly surprised by this. I know some people believe in creationism, but everyone I talked to has favored evolution. I'm gonna go with the reasoning that people in the northeast are less religious and better educated then hicks from Mississippi and Texas.

It's not just Mississippi and Texas (which is better than all its neighbors to the East until you hit the ocean). It is pretty much all of the former slave owning states, as well as most of the Midwest. This entire country has a pretty shitty education system, and religion is treated like a sacred sheep which can't be offended, despite the detriments certain extreme forms of it have on society.

edit2: And the 'more educated' populace tends to fall for New Age shit really easily. It is very sad.

[Matos]

I am honestly surprised by this. I know some people believe in creationism, but everyone I talked to has favored evolution. I'm gonna go with the reasoning that people in the northeast are less religious and better educated then hicks from Mississippi and Texas.

Has more to do with the kind of people you hang out with.

[Lysander]

There are plenty of atheist conservatives and republicans, but for the most part both (parties: republicans or conservatives, republiservatives) are at least partially religiously motivated. If they split down the middle they would lose their ability to win votes. So in most cases even the atheists end up supporting religious lobbying, if only indirectly.

Edit: Not that the Democrats are much better. It's pretty sad to live in a country founded on the separation of Church and State where the vast majority of politicians must at least pay lip service to a church in order to be elected.

[Agathor]

Politicians have been mixing the bible with science for along time. The bible says pi is 3. Not that far off really, still not good enuff though.

THE WISDOM OF SOLOMON: NOT WHAT IT'S CRACKED UP TO BE

Dear Cecil:

Your response to the question about attempts to legislate pi suggests not only that your scholarship is weak but that you are a heathen. When King Solomon constructed the Temple of Jerusalem, the Second Book of Chronicles, chapter 4, verses 2 and 5, tells us:

"Then he made the Sea [a big tub] of cast bronze, ten cubits from one brim to the other; it was completely round. Its height was five cubits and a line of thirty cubits measured its circumference. It was a handbreadth thick; and its brim was shaped like the brim of a cup..... It contained three thousand baths."

The ratio of 30 cubits for the circumference to 10 cubits for the diameter "from one brim to the other" of the "completely round" circle gives the value of pi as being exactly 3. Perhaps reliance on the Word of God motivated the Indiana legislators you trashed. You should have checked with the ultimate reference. --H.K.S., Springfield, Virginia

Cecil replies:

Some of the mail I get is unbelievable. As I attempted to point out, the Indiana legislature did not consider making pi equal to 3, but rather to 3.2, 4, or approximately 3.23, depending on which formula you used. Neither the text of the bill nor any of the commentaries regarding it refer to the Bible. Perhaps Tennessee, Oklahoma, Kansas or one of the other states I mentioned was the one that attempted to a legislate a pi of biblical proportions.

Interesting you should bring this up, though. In 150 A.D. a Hebrew rabbi and scholar named Nehemiah attempted to explain away the anomaly in Chronicles by saying that the diameter of the tub was 10 cubits from outer rim to outer rim, whereas the 30 cubit circumference was measured around the inner rim. In other words, the difference between the biblical notion of pi and the actual value may be accounted for by the width of the tub's walls. How's that for tap dancing, eh? Nehemiah lived a long time ago, but I feel he's my spiritual kin.

— Cecil Adams

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/...ng-pi-equals-3

[Grim]

WTF, Indiana tried to change Pi?

Right now I am reading a good book about the historical clash of east and west. Its pretty interesting, since it deals alot with world religions. One of the points it makes is that in the west religion has historically been important, but seperate from civil government. In the East, religion and governement have been one and the same for thousands of years.

[Yorda]

WTF, Indiana tried to change Pi?

Right now I am reading a good book about the historical clash of east and west. Its pretty interesting, since it deals alot with world religions. One of the points it makes is that in the west religion has historically been important, but seperate from civil government. In the East, religion and governement have been one and the same for thousands of years.

Define west/east. Religion has basically always been a key part in ruling in pretty much the whole world, I'm guessing you're talking about asia vs europe, both of which have been dominated by religion up until the renaissance (Not coincidentally also the time technological process started picking back up).

[Grim]

Define west/east. Religion has basically always been a key part in ruling in pretty much the whole world, I'm guessing you're talking about asia vs europe, both of which have been dominated by religion up until the renaissance (Not coincidentally also the time technological process started picking back up).

The author defined the East as the the land from Anatolia to India. The far east, like China was excluded because of the minimal contact Europe had with them for much of history.

The west is Europe, and its later colonies. I have only read up to the fall of the roman empire and the rise of Islam. Much of the book so far has been about Greece vs Persia, and how Rome started out western and gradually became more eastern in practice.

[Yorda]

I'm guessing you mean Rome started out eastern and became more western.

[Grim]

I'm guessing you mean Rome started out eastern and became more western.

When I get home from work I will post the title, but no, the way the author presents it is that Rome started out western, and became more eastern. A republic is a western form of government, where eastern states usually went more towards having an emperor (like the persians) who also claimed to be a god or godlike. While Romans did use slaves, every free man was a citizen, with rights that could not be taken away. So Syrians, Egyptians, and Celts were all Roman citizens if they were born within the borders of the Roman Empire and respected their laws. Eastern countries tended not to be so generous to those they conquered.

Other eastern qualities later embraced by roman rulers was a taste for the extravagant, and becoming slightly feminine, and use of mercenaries. Eastern courts are well known for using eunuchs, a large number or courtiers, extensive use of perfumes, and an unnatural attraction to little boys.

So as Rome became more decadent they became more eastern. Would anyone be interested in a new thread to discuss the roman empire, its legacy, its fall, things not to repeat, etc?

[Yorda]

They don't make it so everyone is a Roman citizen until the emperors are already in power, and that's only to generate money. During the "republic" (Semantics, but the empire was still technically a republic until Diocletian) you had to be born within Rome the city to be a Roman citizen and have rights (also be a land owning male).

It's not until Diocletian do you really see extravagance on the Emperor's part (until him the "emperor" was a "first citizen"), and he's right before Constantine and the Christian conversion (IE after all the Emperors are gods etc.).

Even at its start the Romans required everyone to participate in the state religion (aside from Jews).

[xutech]

WTF, Indiana tried to change Pi?

Right now I am reading a good book about the historical clash of east and west. Its pretty interesting, since it deals alot with world religions. One of the points it makes is that in the west religion has historically been important, but seperate from civil government. In the East, religion and governement have been one and the same for thousands of years.

wow. that is one of the most amazing statements I have heard here in a long time.

[Fartman]

A thread for discussing the US Democratic Party and Democrats in general.

I'll start off with this story

Two former leaders of the (Michigan) Oakland County Democratic Party are facing a total of nine felonies for allegedly forging election paperwork to get fake Tea Party candidates on November's ballot.

"It is not a partisan statement, and we need to make that very clear," said Oakland County Prosecutor Jessica Cooper.

Former Oakland County Democratic Chair Mike McGuinness and former Democratic Operations Director Jason Bauer face up to 14 years in prison if convicted.

http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/dpp/news...ud-20110316-mr

No mention of this story on CNN or the New York Times of course.