They still do!Originally Posted by Securitas
They still do!
Which is very hurtful, so I console myself by buying more deadspace-tanked, faction launcher Tengus.
Meaning I doubt anyone whined about them ruining the game (unless they meant for themselves.)
Exactly. It's like CCP doesn't comprehend the possibility that while I'm logged into MartCo, in Imperian's fleet in Fountain, killing ~stuff~, I'm also ratting merrily away on an alt in Venal AT THE SAME TIME. Oh, and a third alt has jump clones and fighting ships in PR-, Curse, Fountain, and Deklein on the off-chance GSF calls for a foreign legion deployment to shit on some dude on the other side of the map.
Removing jump bridges just means Titan production is going to get ramped up again and you are going to have logged Titans at POSs all over the powerbloc.
I've said it before, but CCP just needs to stop trying to influence player behavior via game (particularly sov) mechanics. For one, they're fucking terrible at it. Anyone remember what Dominion sov was SUPPOSED to do? It was supposed to make it easier for small entities to hold space. Instead, it accelerated the rise of bloc-level politics. Note that I don't say that it caused the rise of power blocs. This is because it was already happening as a natural consequence of higher server capacity and increasing levels of organization in 0.0.
You forgot supercaps. There's no way to remove the blobs, and there's no need to. Get a PvE alt in the NC to make isk, and roam NC space with a PvP main for fun. But Jump Bridges are a bit of a "fuck you" to roaming gangs, although that topic has been done to death in another thread already.
Basicly; let nullsec carebears build their empire in nullsec, sov warfare with dominion mechanics is fucking boring anyway. But make it easier for roamers to hit those carebears, make it viable for the casual PvP'er to go out into nullsec and farm carebears. Delay local, remove jumpbridges, put active anoms/signatures on overview; whatever. Let carebears build empires, but make that space dangerous, make it a much more attractive target for pirates; make farmers farmable.
And death to all supercaps.
Stagnation will fix itself through boredom. It takes on average 7 months (something like that) for an empire bear to get bored and quit. Once the only thing players can do in 0.0 is to make large amount of cash, they will soon up and do somehting else (probably in another game). I just would like to think that before that happens they will leave their corp and find one that actually has targets.
I am amazed at the number of people currently posting some version of "If all of 0.0 wants to be blue it should be ok"
More like, "If all of 0.0 wants to be blue, nothing CCP can do will prevent it." Players will do what they want to do.
You know what's best for everyone, right?
Are you suggesting that game mechanics should prevent them from pressing the "Like" button on people they like?
DOOM AND GLOOM THIS GAME IS GOING TO BE SO SHIT! What these people fail to realize, however, is that this game is already shit.
Czech may well be hitting the knacker with a spoon, doesn't mean he's totally wrong.
Staggering levels of boredom will mean that the whole of 0.0 being a complete love-in is unlikely however.
Removing jump bridges is silly. You think it will hurt the large blocs? Sure it will, it'll hurt everyone who actually lives in 0.0 instead of going there in between l4 missions to kill something. Perhaps it will protect your little alliance when the big alliances have to travel farther to kill you? All you're doing is increasing the amount of effort that needs to be invested in an attack. More investment in an attack means less tolerance for a loss. Less tolerance for a loss means more numbers get piled in. More numbers in a fight means bigger blocs are needed. These obstacles don't give the little guy an advantage, they force the big guy to get bigger.
The primary beneficiaries of jump bridges are the little guy. The larger the bloc the more they can rely on titan bridges, convoys, and home defense fleets.
For any change intended to "hurt" the large power blocs, ask yourself if the effect could be diminished by simply throwing more people at it. If the answer is yes, you're only going to make the problem worse.
I am completely not amazed that this post was made by somebody in PL.
we are so rude having lots of allies
Why do people think the game cannot devolve into everyone being blue to each other. Its exactly what happened in the china server, CCP tried to reset server even to fix problem. End game in eve is a big blue list, NC is far too risk averse. If you have a spy in any of those alliances you will no doubt notice that no one ever wants the NC to break. Even goons who hate some russian alliance(stella I think) in the NC are too scared to shoot them because it would break the nc possibly.
tbh if there was no lag there would be nbd about the nc blob with 5 to 1 odds, as far as beating them since their fcing is nowhere near great (DBRB, juniorsvk, countrywv,etc). Except for ~the yaay~ and maybe imperian if he is getting tips from shadoo. Anyways once lag hits tactics to win outnumbered no longer work, tactics are unreliable. I'd say if there was no lag and say you had 50 bs led by fpshacker you could beat 1000 nc dudes+supercaps+titans if you played it right since skill/coordination is actually a factor. Would take a while to kill them all though of course.
That's a myth. China never devolved into everyone being blue, it devolved into where an unexpected game mechanic caused alliances to be completely unable to attack each other. This was fixed once people began being able to fly dreads, and eventually supercaps. The galaxy was set on fire once people could actually attack each other.
?"eve's a bad mmo, really bad, it's only saving grace is the people playing it, which i guess doesn't say great things about the people playing other MMOs"
The China server wasn't blue for long before it collapsed into about 18 warring factions, we even had a thread on here about it
Keep in mind their (eve) economy is heavily stunted and their game mechanics lag ours by 2-3 years
Well its been proven already that indeed it has happened even with lag that victory against the NC with odds against you can still obtain victory of the field, problem is when are we going to see a lag free large-scale battle in 0.0? 2015 if we are lucky... But it is true the lag is probably one if not the one major contributor to all fights against the NC which allows them to obtain victory in a battle. That and well a numerical superior supercap fleet (note not including dreads/carriers that list would be endless) with the ability to appear nearly anywhere in under 20 minutes (not even that) makes almost any cap fight v NC suicide for the opposition 90% of the time.tbh if there was no lag there would be nbd about the nc blob with 5 to 1 odds, as far as beating them since their fcing is nowhere near great (DBRB, juniorsvk, countrywv,etc). Except for ~the yaay~ and maybe imperian if he is getting tips from shadoo. Anyways once lag hits tactics to win outnumbered no longer work, tactics are unreliable. I'd say if there was no lag and say you had 50 bs led by fpshacker you could beat 1000 nc dudes+supercaps+titans if you played it right since skill/coordination is actually a factor. Would take a while to kill them all though of course.
But then again I am a CF/NC Grunt so please call me hypocritical/deluded "insert other" if you wish.
At some point, some part of the NCC will implode. The only stable entities in the Northern Carebear Coalition are MM and Razor, if one (or both) of them were to cascade the whole thing would fall over like a rotten tree.
The further the NC spreads, the less stability those entities can emit, as you will have whole regions depending on the lesser and even more FAILtacular NC members, such as ME, RAGE, WIdot, and yes, Goons/Test. Frankly, I believe they already hold as much space as they can viably keep. If they manage to take Fountain/Delve/Querious/PB they will be seriously overextended, creating at least one or two weak areas they won't be able to hold.
Who has the NC actually beaten? They outblobbed a much smaller entity in EVOKE to take Cloud Ring. They are benefiting from a BOBIT failcascade to take Fountain and the rest of their space. They took Geminate from Ze Russians at a time they were busy swallowing all of Atlas's holdings, then failed to keep a campaign going in the drone regions. All indications are that there is about to be another assault on Geminate, and in the end, will MM/Razor be comfortable committing total resources to taking Delve with a much more powerful force knocking on the door of their home regions? I don't.
Anyone who thinks the NC is suddenly going to succeed at "EVE Conquest" (IE: conquer all of 0.0) or even hang on to what they have now is crazy. They have yet to even sustain ONE campaign over the long term, much less the year(s) long grind that would take.
all others failed so we did not win anything actually? good point.
(not saying that there is not some truth in that)
i do not think that any entity in eve should be as big as NC could be soon or Bob / Goons were once once, for the sake of the game. but that will not happen anyway. although it sounds sweet to screw over a few self proclaimed elite pvpers with pure numbers every once in a while, doesn't it.
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to intex encapor again.
So basically, the NC still won, because all others sucked. Shit, victory is still victory, this is as bad as "you're not killing me fast enough!"
The current situation is a direct result of game mechanics. Game mechanics require people to take the current tactics which result in massive power blocs and no other avenue for advancement in the greater game. This is something that can't be fixed by moaning about too many blues or stagnation, it can only be fixed by changing the way the game is played and introducing new elements that change the required dynamic.
Basically shit be broke on a fundamental level and you shouldn't hate the player, hate the game (literally) and have enough interest in it to want to fix it. There's tangible things that could be done to remove the sole end-game aspect of the game and make the goals more varied and interesting. Nothing is beyond fixing and pretty much everybody wants it to be fixed. I expect this years CSM to focus around these goals and hopefully some good comes out of it instead of people wasting the opportunity fucking around in Iceland and bitching about how to improve assfrigs.
You answered your own question. You can keep moving the goalposts for victory until you end up "Well Vuk didn't do it solo in a Kestral." or you can acknowledge that nothing happens in a complete vacuum. Someone will have some sort of advantage and press that advantage. Otherwise just cut the words down to "NOT CONQUERING ALL OF EVE FAST ENOUGH"
If the NC is so unbeatable why were PL able to kick their ass so badly for so long? (/hint, supercaps and the stupid amounts of Isk in the game that fund them).
I don't see the Goons turning on the NC because people expect them to take responsibility for keeping 0.0 alive. They don't hate the NC, they don't turn on allies (see their response to the NC attack on DRF) and they still have a couple of powers they hate. Besides, fighting the NC would be really boring. More likely if the world turns blue and stagnant they'll just move on.
CCP's response is to divert resources towards their next game. That's why your Eve subscription mostly goes to WoD and Dust. MMO's have a rise and a decline and I don't think the current game is growing, and I'm pretty sure CCP has the numbers telling them that. They'll make a decision between keeping the established audience on the treadmill to fund development of their other games or risk driving them off by massively changing mechanics and trying to attract new growth. And as the game gets older (and the core mechanical issues remain unsolvable) the former becomes more likely. Isn't this really a large part of the story of IT? A numerically massive organisation but in practice with a lot of players inactive such that they collapse when pushed hard (and no doubt a lot of people will consider their fall a good time to find a new game).
That's also why the NC, which welcomes new pilots and fosters new alliances, is much less of an issue to the game than PL (You can't fly a supercap? wtf) or the drone regions (the more real players, the less money per bot) in terms of giving paths into 0.0.
As you can see, a recurring theme about why the NC/DC has "won" is because they don't treat people like shit. From a coalition level all the way down to the individual pilot, people are taken care of and basic player/corp/alliance rights are tried to be preserved. The shit isn't perfect by any means (see R.A.G.E. being batshit retarded and giving Convicted the boot), but it's a damn sight better than any other powerbloc has been able to do. The only non-North entities that have done anything similar is Ev0ke which treats Ewoks as more than just a renter alliance (they try and actually teach those guys to pvp and fleet fight), Initiative with Initiative Mercenaries, and the old Provibloc.
Avoid trying to be an elitist asshole as a way to recoup all those times you were stuffed in a dumpster by the cool kids at school and you might just succeed at something other than an 8 second jerk-off rodeo.
I haven't really been keeping a solid track on that particular story but I heard they were still having participation issues. Troo facks?
Minor side issue though and I agree totally with it. People coming from down south were amazed that they weren't allowed to treat guests like complete garbage. They were also amazed that they actually x'ed up and weren't noticeably more horrible than the main NC alliances.
Everyone goes through natural, cyclical ebbs and swells in participation no matter what they do. The concept of the NC is that they are large enough that individual member groups can (temporarily) collapse from inactivity and the rest of the Coalition can keep their space safe or repopulate it while they get their shit together. The concept behind the Clusterfuck is similar (by striping space instead of giving everyone a contiguous blob you increase the strength of the cross-reinforcement.) Smaller alliances without this group reinforcement get steamrolled by opportunists or simply collapse into cascade when their participation drops below a certain threshold.
The numbers involved are dictated by game mechanics and the number of players you would need to ensure you always have enough supercaps at any one time to hold off the worst possible case invasion. It's not rocket science to see where this leads.
I have a better post here: NC hegemony is basically up there with the Red Scare but with less actual factual backing.
I read that as "Red Dawn" and was totally ready with the obligatory "Wolverines!!!!!"
Fuck that was a good movie. I think I'm going to go watch it right now.
Aw man Hratli I loved the post you edited out about the embarassment of riches
Honestly it's not too late to stop the NC. All it will take is a bit of apathy on the part of NC proper, and DC purging IT FROM THE FACE OF THE EARTH, causing a hellish firestorm of uncertainty and conflict in the south to allow a shift in how they think, do business and organize themselves. No reason the alliances below the equator can't become more NC-like (or that they won't be FORCED to by Darwin). If not a mirror image then at the very least have all the major egos and old guards that prevented progress toppled.
getting it straight, its a nice description of "they bloat the coalition with highest possible amount of noobs, with the sole purpose of strangulating anyone else with pure numbers/stop the server", a lame tactic IMO. Its not because NC is nice to players, the players are just a tool for a specific goal, which worked out well so far.
I think it's this mentality that discouraged the majority of your "meatshields, pets and renters" from actually showing up. And realistically, you have to keep new blood flowing in, as people burn out and go inactive or back to Empire.
At present, the only credible, existential threat to the NC is a lack of external aggression. The problem of 'NC hegemony' will fix itself one way or another.
not really. IRL there are antitrust angencies for this specific reason, when organizations/companies get too powerful, they're split, which makes perfectly sense because when the critical mass is reached at some point noone can do something against it anymore. This is already happened in the norhtern blob. Neither waiting for the things getting sorted out by theirselves is a good idea nor telling people do the same shit, this would just make the situation much worse, if anything.
You dont counter human behavior with tools and rules, you have to take actions in such situations, things unlikely sort out on their own.
Am I too late for a shitty cold war analogy?
yes, approx. 2 years too late. A cold war situation requires 2 equally powerful parties, when bob was alive, there was one. Now, we have a big blue clusterfuck, steamrolling everyone in its way.
First laffo at you for making a comparison to a commercial monopoly and EVE online. Countering this kind of behavior with tools and rules is exactly what you do. You don't "take action" against people playing the game within the framework of the rules. It would be wrong if everyone whoring sensor damps a few years back tried to log in to find themselves banned. If the winning formula for winning the game comes at a net loss of fun for every then you change the game instead of swinging a wild ass banhammer around trying to kill the fly in your china cabinet.
How would you even "take action" against the NC/DC? Permaban Vuk Lau and the mittani? Ban all 40,000 members for varying lengths of time and tell them never to build a super coalition ever again? Just as the most consistent way of winning a foot race is to be faster than everyone else, the empire builders will rise to the top, while the screaming toddlers who try to kick their sandcastles over will soon find themselves without a sandcastle, or even sand to play in. The exact same thing would happen if CCP just removed PL from the game. Eventually someone else would take up the elite pvp mantle by simple process of evolution. Elite pvp with shit pilots, FCs or leadership will die, making room for better pilots, FCs, or leadership to take advantage.
A change in game mechanics is exactly what is needed to accomplish what you want. The fact that it comes as a price of someone else's fun should be a small price to pay if the NC/DC is really KILLING EVE.
I meant the nuclear arms race / supercaps race... nevermind, really.
Not really, what you do is analyzing the situation and breaking up entities which are getting too powerful even if they dont violaty any laws. You cant counter peoples behavior by introducing stupid game mechanics, they will always find a way to circumvent them, this is what I mean.
well, if the rules arent sufficient, they are objective for change, I suppose.
a simple prohibition of cooperation of such clusterfuck coalitions would be fine. When the parties comply to that requirement, all fine, when not -> alliance ban, disband, sov reset, whatever penalties you may imagine. Im not a fan of regulations tbh, but in exceptional situations as we have now, its ok and even mandatory.
I would not go that far
exactly. This would be the first step. I mean its obvious when 40 alliances are pushed from all eve in one system, something going fucking wrong and should be penalized by administrative means.
The guys like presenting this as BFF and shit like that, but its actually all about forming unbeatable coalitions with this only purpose. They arent about good gameplay as they even admit by themselves, its only about holding a vast amount of territory and being invincible. This is where intervention becomes urgent.
As I wrote above, game mechanics dont prevent people from forming monopolies of clusterfucks, they will always find a way if its not sanctioned by the "government" (CCP).
Full freedom isnt working IRL, it isnt working in games as well but even abused, as we see currently. Barriers are required sometimes.
I'm not sure if you're serious. Are you suggesting the NC be punished for playing the game?
for playing the game the way they do now. correct.
Is there anyone in EVE who doesn't cause you to suffer paroxysms of sperging rage or what?
So, a GM on every system where these people pass each other would force them to shoot each other, and prevent them both from shooting the same targets?
How can you prove cooperation beyond a reasonable margin for abuse by GMs?
Taking your Goons / NC example:
Goons claim they don't attack NC systems because the NC is too strong. The NC claims the same about Goon territory.
There's your power block. How is this cooperation? Extrapolate to pretty much everything Goons and NC do together. See where this is going?
"ripper van
Shit Poser"
Grats, you've earned it :=)
Fake arguments are obvious with a little common sense. I mean, the humankind learned to deal with protective statements alredy for a long time actually.
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