I've already stated my preference if something must be done:Originally Posted by Sansa Comfrey
I've already stated my preference if something must be done:
Hey that hacking idea is a really good one, should make all pos modules outside the shields hackable. Or at the very least the cyno beacons/jammers/jb's
I've been trying to figure that out. Slaying the JB dragon as a panacea makes no sense to me.
I'm aware that people will drop their own bridges. The fact remains that it will require Alliance A to go through a bridge to alliance B's space. That requires a gate. When you have a coalition of 10 alliances, that means splitting their fleets into little pieces if they really want to get somewhere by gates. Those ten mini fleets are potentially... Small gangs.
I wonder how many alliances want to share their space with a half dozen others just to get a few bridges built. I suspect the density will decrease in most places where they are overused now.
Frankly, I doubt any change will make a patchwork of small alliances the way everyone wants. The larger ones will still show up and crush or domesticate them and those who aren't crushed will find safety in numbers anyway.
If you can't come up with a solution to your problem short of removing bridges, I can't see you getting what you want when they are removed. If CCP needs to cater to your gameplay, are you sure you wouldn't be better served by shooting rats in highsec? They don't have to be hunted so much.
There are many things that can be done to improve overall gameplay, *including nerfing or removing JB nets*. It's the chainsaw to cut bread approach that I find shortsighted.
I have literally camped a gate once: The tama slaughter where we killed 2000 ships in about 48 hours (flying a dual faction point assault frigate, it took me 3 years to purge 'vengance' as my favorite ship).
I'm more of a "camp your entire constellation" kinda guy, kill everything that moves. I'd also like to see how many kills you could generate in 24 hours all by yourself, since 20 seems like such an arbitrary number to you. I'm betting you'd fall far short.
'Hacking' the JB to disable it is a really good idea for allowing localized isolation of areas (and therefore adds strategical options AND spreads fleets around a bit, two things CCP wants) and IMO should be on the agenda for suggestions to CCP in the future; I said I loved that idea when you first posted it.
Of course, it's CCP - they'd implement it by requiring two dozen codebreaker-fit supercarriers ten minutes or a 100 man codebreaker-fit subcap fleet two hours to actually disable it.
And it would only disable for 5 minutes.
Better hurry and get some kills!
Camping gates isn't something people usually do because the act of camping is fun - it's just the most effective way of getting kills. Hunter-killer mode is all well and good in certain specific situations but the vast majority of the time you are reported in intel well before you arrive anywhere interesting and those opponents who want to fight will fit out to counter what you have as well as bring superior numbers, not a very fun combination.
Serious Internet Spaceship Game in small group 0.0 is a lot like submarine combat. The ones running around making noise don't last very long. The silent ones hiding where they are not expected or seen are the ones that get the kills. And that's really what most the anti-JB people want - smaller fights that are fun. That game is really stagnant in 0.0 and JBs are a part of that, that's why they want it changed. No one wants to make logistics duller, and the best suggestions so far keep jumpbridges around for that very reason - but there has to be ways to reward that playstyle for those who like it. Lowsec is dead, FW never lived, R&B is a sideshow.
These are the important, and contradictory, parts.
I pointed this out more than a few times upthread but nobody's ever actually explained why it's wrong; part of the reason the small gang no longer works is that people wised up, they scouted, they got intel channels, they posted cloaky alts to watch the entrances to their pockets. That's not going to go away if you take down the the JB's. Lowsec, as you say, is dead, but it was the better martialing of the metagame that killed it (I was there getting killed to prove the point more than I care to remember) and no one has yet presented a reason why this will change or why 0.0 is somehow exempt.
Attacking the JB is, even being generous, a partial solution to the problem. If you're really trying to get back the days when you could do the sort of thing people are asking for, you need to nerf local or give every player of the game a ration of stupid pills on login.
You can already attack the stupid or the desperate in transit, and the number of stupid and desperate isn't going to magically go up without JBs.
Whenever I see a PL person talk about how they want the return of small gang PvP I just assume they mean "small gang of super-capitals". In which case I can fully understand why they don't want JB's to exist, they don't need them and it would slow gathering any force that would threaten them.
Removing JB's would make the game more tedious, and it's dull enough as it is. Any attempt to improve how 0.0 works sounds like a good idea, but it should be done as an integrated process in which all aspects are considered. For example if you wanted to nerf JB's then all jump capable ships need to be re-considered, because otherwise this would be a boost to them and they don't need one atm.
That said having super-carriers and titans actually have to move through systems in slow-ass convoy would probably solve the problem of super-cap domination
Please nerf local. I'll live in Hounds for the rest of my Eve career hotdropping people.
Srs post.
I think we have pretty much mined out every topic of JB related discussion here by now. At this point we need to kidnap a Dev. and make them read the entire thread. Anti-psychotics may be advisable.
Arguments seem to be going in circles, there are two clear camps. One has vested interests, the other wants to play god and considers the collateral damage acceptable; whether it would actually BE a disaster remains to be seen, EVE is a complex system and players are ingenious buggers.
For my part, I've been swayed towards a nerfing of JB's or re purposing, not complete removal, as it could achieve my desired goal without too much collateral damage. That said, the problem of defence gangs being able to drop blobs on roaming small gangs and move faster than they ever could by abusing JB's remains as a problem and the knockon effects are 0.0 being effectively no less secure than Empire in some systems.
If local was put into delayed mode and the function of JB's nerfed/changed that would appear to be the perfect combination at this point.
You may disagree.
Not Dead, Just Sleeping
Local is the real enemy.
Also, more regions would be helpful.
There's just many more players in null-sec, and in the game in general, compared to the supposedly golden era of small-gang PvP.
Also bring back mines.
I've proposed the idea before that ihub upgrades - not the directly sov tied stuff like JBs, beacons, jammers (for painfully obvious reasons) but the ratting/mining/wormhole upgrades should have an on/off switch that anybody within 2500m of the hub can hit. Small gang or solo ganker wants to distract ratting? Hit the off button. Ratter shows up and wants to rat? He has to mosey up to the hub and turn it back on. Ganker been gone for four hours? Go flip the switch back on. No reps, no reinforcement, no retarded million ehp to work up or push down. Any small gang can completely shut down non-belt moneymaking for as long as the holding area refuses to chase them off, and you know -somebody- has to come on grid with the hub (no POS guns) to undo it. This way small gangs can ~make a difference~ and force PvP if they really want to without introducing yet another painful, stupid grind aspect to the game.
This would also have the side effect of fixing the CCP mistake of spawning veld in your 0.0 mining anom that you have to mine through so it'll respawn - just mine the good stuff, go to hub, toggle the switch.
Nerfing local and jump bridges is simply an attempt to solve the effect, not the cause, of the current problems that 0.0 faces.
If CCP goes in that direction while ignoring the structural problems which truly inhibit 0.0 dynamics, it just screams of playing to the crowd that can shout loudest and not facing the actual problem.
Instantaneous local is probably the worst enemy to PVP in EVE barring the Empire situation with NPC corps and wardecs being crap ( and docking games and loggofski...)
There's just many more players in null-sec, and in the game in general, compared to the supposedly golden era of small-gang PvP.
Not Dead, Just Sleeping
You honestly dont think they are a significant part of the problem?
Even divorced from the grand malaise of 0.0 local is a pretty fucked up situation- its an instant, all knowing all seeing intel tool with no counter than precludes and entire style of gameplay.
Not Dead, Just Sleeping
Right. We should have no instantaneous local so you can have your "pvp" ganks.
Right.
Right.
Or BE ganked.
Want to rat/grind anoms/mine? Defend yourself and your friends then. Expect to fight off blood hungry griefers for the privilege of access to anoms/rats etc... that make you more than Empire living in complete safety would.
Level playing field. No more CCP holding their hand. Actual confrontational gameplay with other players with actual consequences. Not being in complete control. The idea terrifies the carebear.
Not Dead, Just Sleeping
This is pretty off-topic, but I'd like to see what would happen if everyone got reset to 10k isk, 800k (or whatever) skillpoints, and a noobship, and 0.0 got reset to no outposts, no upgrades, no sov, no nothing. Certainly a lot of people would quit, but it would certainly be interesting.
Caeleste naves interretis gravissimas sunt
I would love delayed local. Maybe not exactly the way a WH works but a 30 to 60 second delay. I think null needs a whole body approach to fixing.
1. I'd like to see JB networks nerfed. There have been several good ideas on this. Cap jump drives really need to be looked at at the same time.
2. Delayed local
3. End the 15 minute timer. Go supercap balls in or go home.
4. Perhaps make anoms show up in Dscan and make them warpable. That or make the system scan delay shorter.
You need not be. Wormhole dwellers manage without local.
If people wanted to live like that they'd be in wormholes where the conditions you describe already exist.
And a fundamental flaw of your argument (and game mechanics) is that most people aren't making more in 0.0 than they would in empire. CCP's own economist estimated L4 income AFTER the loot nerf, including bounty, rewards and LP, at 40 million an hour (down from 70m/hr pre-nerf.) Very few people who aren't running plex or botting are coming near that. So essentially you're already paying for the privilege of living in 0.0 in the first place; the only accoutrement is that you don't have to podjump to your PvP staging point. When you start talking industrial stuff that starts getting even more skewed (mining is shit everywhere, PI is better in 0.0 but is millions/week instead of millions/hour and is the lazy man's gambit anyway.)
Go start your own Eve server, then. I'm sure people will love the idea.This is pretty off-topic, but I'd like to see what would happen if everyone got reset to 10k isk, 800k (or whatever) skillpoints, and a noobship, and 0.0 got reset to no outposts, no upgrades, no sov, no nothing. Certainly a lot of people would quit, but it would certainly be interesting.
e: added quote because holy fuck this thread sometimes moves fast.
spamming scan every 5 seconds or setting up a macro to do it for you isn't a good mechanic.
You're right. And they live in a place where covert cynos work as well, right?
He wants to be able to sit at a gate and gank people not paying attention. He's been told several ways he can mess with carebears in 0.0 and he's admitted that he killed 20 people just recently. I guess whatever he's doing now is just too much effort and he wants to park at a gate and pick people off one by one.
He still hasn't explained how deleting jump bridges will make that happen. There are multiple ways that people in 0.0 have of avoiding getting ganked and you'd have to remove all of those as well to make him happy. No more intel channels, no more local, no more warp-to-zero, no more directional scanner, etc.
People play the game differently now than when they did when there were no jump bridges. Removing jump bridges isn't going to provide anybody with an endless supply of people to gank. Deal wiz it.
Those numbers are wrong wrong wrong. Was this in a QEN?
EDIT: 627 posts in this thread, started 1 week ago, remarkably little shit posting (people are too busy arguing guess)
Not Dead, Just Sleeping
Like I said, a delay rather than an outright no local unless someone types. You might get popped by someone good with their scanner but you might get away by paying attention.
Rat aligned. Mine with protection.
Rat aligned, get caught by an arazu, get hotdropped.
I FINALLY GET IT!!
You can't be helped, mate. Move to empire.
I think you missed the part where I want this to happen so I can help hotdrop fucks that still live in 0.0
I did miss that. Sorry.
Still doesn't change the fact your arazu would have to get in, find me, and lock me (after your delay expired) all within a short delay. If you can do it, then you've worked for it and deserve the kill. The ratter would have had plenty of time to get away if he was aligned. Esp if he is paying attention and is aligned when you decloak.
You call going into a belt and pointing somebody "work"?
What the fuck.
Should we start guessing where he lives?
I say in the South, just to be different.
Making 0.0 a horrible place to live will certainly encourage more people to live out here!
P.S. As far as consequences go, this is just a game. The only "actual" consequences come from spending time playing it (or treating it like a job) instead of doing something useful.
P.P.S. People want to mine?
You realize any cov ops working with a Sabre or even possibly an inty is going to catch the ratter 100% of the time? (tackle just stays out of scan range/ stays cloaked, on other side of gate etc. whoopee.)
Jumping into a system, and finding someone within 30 seconds, getting within point range, and tackling him before he warps out is something the average joe cannot do without fail 100% of the time. It requires being good on Dscanner for catching guys in belts, and being lucky with finding him in a sanctum/haven.
I still find myself ratting like I'm in WSPACE. My dscan is open and I even run the scan out of habit sometimes. Bomber with a point is my biggest fear. I still lost a couple of ships in the hole. Them's the breaks, you know?
The fact is without awoxing, the hunter has close to zero chance to catch me (I'll surely be killed the next time I rat now) today unless I'm napping or reading Kugu. That's not the case with a lot of people but I hear plenty of bellyaching about ratters having it too easy. I agree that the anoms and hidden belts have made it damned easy for PVE pilots to avoid risk almost altogether.
Anoms being visible and warpable to on the overview without scanning might change that. The ten seconds or so minimum it takes someone to drop probes to get quick anom results after coming into a system (that's pretty much the absolute maximum amount of quickness it could be done, I think, most people take several seconds more) is enough time for anyone in system to be ready for them, unless they're doing it in a cap.
The idea that you make it too dangerous to make money in 0.0 just drives people back to L4s has merit, though. IMO, any increase in danger in 0.0 (it's pretty much as safe as empire in backwater NC regions right now, my plexrunning Tengu has never even been locked by a red) truly HAS to be offset with an increase in reward.
Leme try again, just for little ol you:
I don't camp gates (i said that already) at all, not even when extremely bored.
It has been explained to you at least 12 times in this thread, your choosing to only address certain arguments, and you ignore the rest.
Local is broken as hell, but other than that, the rest of your list you just assumed I'd want gone, thanks for making my mind up for me (actually fuck you).
The last part? Well they can go back to playing it the way they were before (thats half the point, thank you for actually defending my stance on the subject, remove jump bridges, things can go back to normal, see, wasn't that hard after all).
Its amazing, you all want to be able to rat and PVE totally care free and without a worry in the world, and you scold any body who wants to hunt you as being "lazy" and "needing to do a little work", but when the onus is placed back on YOU to do the work, you're completely adverse to any form of compromise at all, and the idea that you should have to work even 2% as hard as the guy hunting you is ridiculous.
Basically, fuck you too buddy.
EDIT: being neg repped by a bunch of carebears who are mad about losing jump bridges is amazingly fun, and mainly consists of reasons like "no"
That's not what he meant, jackass.
He means people altogether play differently, not just because of jump bridges.
Kindly get the fuck out.
You might want to go back and reread my post. You didn't do it right the first time.
Edit: I just realized you bolded the point in my post that you completely missed.
Boy, the carebears come out in force when you suggest they... *gasp*... use stargates. Or cynos.
NOOOO NOT STARGATES WHAT WOULD I DOOOOOOOOO.
And people like you get all up in arms when we tell you exactly how to camp jump bridges
Yes, please, instruct me on how to camp a jump bridge
This will be amusing.
If he does so, and you completely ignore it or focus on a single small flaw instead of addressing the overall idea, I am turdhousing this thread.Yes, please, instruct me on how to camp a jump bridge
This will be amusing.
?"eve's a bad mmo, really bad, it's only saving grace is the people playing it, which i guess doesn't say great things about the people playing other MMOs"
Certainly. I'd love to see any legit suggestions. Other than using drag bubbles or trying to use cloaky alpha (which both are crap compared to just cutting a region in half by traditional camping of gates), there's not a lot of great options unless you know a titan pilot that likes to do drive-bys deep in hostile space
No you see, Camping a gate is boring, but camping a bubble, NOW THATS WHERE ITS AT BABY.
Also, you literally said "people play different now" meaning, that before jump bridges, we played a different way. Well, CCP has decided the way you play now is bullshit, so they intend to fix it.
And your elected CSM officials are backing them up.
To be fair it sounds like it was not backed by Goons and Vuk wasn't there, and while I don't presume to know his mind I suspect he would not have supported it either.
It's true almost everyone else did, though (or more accurately didn't raise any objection to the idea of readjustment, not necessarily taking them away).
I'm going to try to explain this to you as simply as I can. People in nullsec, when engaged in PvE activity, behave differently now than they did during the time when there were no jump bridges. Alliances have extensive intel channels, people keep an eye on local to see who is in the system with them, They keep an eye on the directional scanner looking for probes. If jump bridges are removed people will continue to do those things and very few people are going to blindly jump into your silly little gate camp. My point was that to accomplish what you are looking for would require not only removing jump bridges but also removing local chat, alliance/coalition intel channels, the directional scanner and all of the other tricks people have learned to avoid getting ganked. This is not rocket science but you seem to be so mad about jump bridges you're not able to put two and two together and get four.
My advice would be to calm down and enjoy some internet spaceships.
People did all that before jump bridges.
Are you honestly trying to sit there and tell me that jump bridges popped up and all the sudden people had intel channels and found a directional scanner? That shit was all there before, but now the jump bridges protect the sloppy and unwary, where as before, they were actually prey (as they should be).
People are the same, they were just given tools to allow the weak and stupid to survive. Take those tools away, and the same people that don't pay attention to intel channels now, won't pay attention when they are gone, they just won't have the shelter of a death star pos with a jump bridge to protect them.
EDIT: To be crystal clear- I've played since well before jump bridges, and literally the first thing I learned was 1) open local up wide so you have a clear view of your god mode intel 2) keep your intel open (for the longest time it was GF allies or something like it) 3) Learn to work your scanner. That shit is as old as the game itself, and has nothing to do with jump bridges.
All they allow is for a greater range of laziness.
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