Heh ;pOriginally Posted by tgr
True but he's not the one who made the picture and I feel the uncontrollable urge to tell people who use that picture that they are wrong :P
Heh ;p
True but he's not the one who made the picture and I feel the uncontrollable urge to tell people who use that picture that they are wrong :P
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It always did strike me as a bit odd to use that "... you're still retarded" line as ... an argument in an online debate.
I don't know the original origins of the picture but it's a fair chance that it came up as a joke, then retarded people saw it loved it and ran with it.
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oh no you didn't
I did :P
You shoulda quoted everything after the , though :<
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The amount of wealth in the game has little to do with ISK. ISK is merely one resource among many. The real wealth in the game is the non-ISK assets like ships and ammo. They also have just as much effect on inflation as isk does, except in the opposite direction (more non-ISK assets drives down inflation). I'll just call everything that comes from NPCs, moons, asteroids, etc... as "minerals" in the diagram below for simplicity. Wealth, as used below, refers to the things you can fly, shoot at, blow up or otherwise do something with.
Code:More Minerals |Fewer Minerals | | More ISK|Neutral Inflation |Positive Inflation |Greater Wealth |Less Wealth --------+------------------+------------------ |Deflation |Neutral Inflation Less ISK|Greater Wealth |Less Wealth
I'm not expert so my thoughts could be well wrong, but I disagree with this. I think you're confusing value with inflation. Because everything (pretty much) can be bought with ISK an items value is tied to it, but something else (ie minerals) can become devalued but not inpact the value of ISK or anything else.
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You mean they're a massive isk faucet.
If minerals go down in price, each unit of isk can buy more units of minerals thus making isk more valuable. It's all relative.
But what I'm saying is that it will only affect that object, and the ones related to it. IE lower mineral prices won't affect say the prices for plex, or faction hardeners. So the value of isk isn't moving at all, just that item and it's relations.
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A drop added to the ocean will still increase the sea level. Just because you don't notice the interconnections among prices for items doesn't mean they don't exist.
Not everything is interconnected, and even if it that is not affecting the value of isk itself, just it's "purchasing power."
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A currency's value is its purchasing power.
I suppose that does make sense, but I still stand by saying that not everything is connected to everything except for isk.
edit: lawl at my 666th post being something that I took issue with in my 667th post :P
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Wouldn't it then be the case that everything is connected "through ISK"?
On a more theorycrafting level:
As soon as you add the ability to trade into a system, goods gain an immaterial "value" which makes them comparable to all other goods.
If you have chairs but are hungry, and your neighbor has apples but wants to sit down, you can meet and discuss how many apples he wants to give you for a chair. So, you can say "a chair is worth N apples."
If you have chairs but are hungry, your neighbor has apples but wants a table to the chair he got, and the other neighbor has tables but no chairs, you can first trade chairs for a table, and then the table for apples. Again, even though you went via a "middle man" of the table, you can tell how many apples you got for a chair.
This way, because there is trade in the system, you can put every good in relation to every other good. One of the goods in the system will, at some point, establish itself as a "general trade good" to keep the intermediates out - money is born (used to be shells, say). Modern money (such as ISK) exists because everyone trusts that they will get "the money's worth" off it. If people would lose said trust in ISK, something else would establish itself as a money-replacement over time.
So, yeah, in a market, everything is connected to everything simply by the virtue of being able to trade.
Now, the dispute was, I think:
This would only be true if minerals and ISK were all goods on the market. If minerals go down in price, each unit of ISK can buy more units of minerals, but that does not necessarily mean that each unit of ISK can buy more units of, say, Technetium - you'd have to argue that "minerals going down in price means everything else is more valuable" to make that true, but I'm not sure what exactly you would want to argue for with that.
The same applies to your nice quadrant table. More minerals and more ISK (in equal proportion) is only "neutral inflation" if the market would contain nothing but minerals and ISK, which it doesn't. It's a possible simplification of the situation to make a rough point, but I wouldn't push that too far.
Well, as I said before I'm not an economics guy. Everything I'm throwing out is pretty much just the logic I can piece together. I suppose everything is connected by being able to be purchased through isk but just because it has doesn't all mean that it affects the value of the isk itself. I would have wanted to say "directly connected" but a lot of things are connected down through minerals so :S But not every item in eve has it's value based on minerals.
"but that does not necessarily mean that each unit of ISK can buy more units of, say, Technetium - you'd have to argue that "minerals going down in price means everything else is more valuable" to make that true, but I'm not sure what exactly you would want to argue for with that."
This is/was pretty much what I was trying to say, I thought I said pretty much that but I guess it didn't come out like that ><
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All of this really has nothing to do with inflation. Inflation is the product of how much currency is in a given economy. Which is where the sink/faucet discussion comes in. When discussing inflation it's the nominal value of ISK, not the real value that is important. Purchasing power doesn't necessarily change with inflation (monetary neutrality and such).
Oh, I was agreeing with you with that sentence (and disagreeing with darkwing) :-)
That's exactly what changes with inflation.
I don't see how you would distinguish between nominal and real values when talking about currencies.
From a first principles perspective, isk itself is relatively unimportant. It's needed for skillbooks and it's useful for facilitating trade but that's it. The rest of the game would still function if isk were eliminated. From the other extreme, if isk were the only thing in the game, the game would cease to be a game.
There is a general increase in price level because the currency is less valuable, not because of some spontaneous increase in the perceived value of goods in an economy. Monetary neutrality is the idea that inflation rises in the same ratio as price level, thus the real value of ISK doesn't change, only the nominal value of it. By definition the real value excludes inflation in it's calculations. I haven't taken economics in a couple years though so vOv.
I'd like to voice my assent to whomever suggested changing insurance payouts. The Pend Insurance company should really not be losing trillions of ISK every day.
How do we get Pend back in the black? First, like any real insurance company, Pend should do a background check on the capsuleer. Say the person buying insurance is a pirate, has -10 sec status, and has killed 13 ships and lost 20 in the past 3 months. This person is obviously incredibly risky to insure (well actually, non-insurable by RL standards), so they should either be denied insurance or face an almost 1-1 payout rate on the current market value of the ship. NB- The "background" check should only go back 2-3 months, because people should be allowed to reform themselves.
Second, I think insurance terms need to be far shorter. I'm not quite sure what the current length of coverage is, but I will guess one month. It is totally obvious that any capsuleer will probably be blown up more than once in a month. I think the terms should be only 1-3 days. That way, you buy the insurance for when it's useful (fleet fight, roam, etc.). If you want to keep your ship insured 23/7 however, it's gonna cost you.
EDIT: Third, the insurance rate should depend on the type of ship. Flying a freighter? That's not very risky, and you chances of dying are less. Here, we'll give you a good rate. Flying a Dramiel? Do you think we're stupid? That thing is to PvP, and you will die eventually. Your rates are gonna be very high.
So yeah, make insurance far costlier.
That ignores the gameplay point of insurance, which is to give a quick boost so players get a counter to the emotional "oof" of losing a ship, especially newbees who are only flying T1 stuff.
Anyway, I'd love to see a CPI for EVE -- a weighted basket of the average prices of various goods at certain times in EVE history. What would you put in such a basket -- minerals, T1 ship prices, T2 component prices, POS fuel prices -- what else?
It would be cool if they changed the insurance in that direction, but it would require a huge amount of effort with little real addition to gameplay.
One thing that I think would be really cool is the introduction of bond markets into eve. Bonds would be tradable on the open market in different tiers based on your credit rating.
Your corp would start out with a terrible credit rating and would have to pay some 25% for your first issuance. As you meet your payments the rating would slowly go up and you would be moved from junk to investment grade. Of course you could just make a shell company and steal the money, but some big alliances who would want to keep good credit. It would have been awesome to watch RAWR yields spike from 200 bips to 5000 over the last few days.
You could also make a new set of underwriting skills such that if you want to do an issuance you need to find some wealthy player to draft the contracts with a fixed coupon who then in turn sells them on the open market. That way investors would see that Chriba or some other reputable dude had underwritten it so it must be good. There could also be a collateral component, a certain amount of trit held in escrow for each bond (a bit like how courier contracts work), to help people trust that they would be repaid but still make it worth while for industrialists and traders to use it to leverage themselves and make it so scammers can still make a tidy profit as well.
I guess for content I have always wondered why people are always complaining about isk inflation because for as long as I have played eve, which is only about 2 years so not as long as most of the people here, isk has been deflating. You can buy allot more stuff with 100 m isk than you could when I started playing. The real inflation is coming from minerals which are mined, but a good third of which come from mission loot which is melted down and another third imported from drone space. (I'm not sure how up to date those figures are but that is about the breakdown that was given in a QED a while back) And even though minerals are not directly used to make everything you need minerals for just about everything that you do outside of a station. Which is all great in my mind because (unless you trade minerals for isk) it means that you need less time invested in whatever you do to get your isk to be able to get out and do the few things in the game which are fun.
EVE ISK is not deflating, it's deflating and pretty hard. Is some most basic stuff getting cheaper? Yes, because it's getting easier and easier to get. The things that are hard, or harder to get are more expensive, and that's the real measure.
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The players can do this now. We've already seen multiple instances of it with in game banks rising and falling. CCP shouldn't add more layers of complexity just for the hell of it.
Well you can say that the general level of prices is going down, which is true and sounds like we agree upon. As for specific markets look at the price of T3's. Hugely expensive when they were introduced but stabilized at 500 millionish and slowly moving down from there. Titans and supers were crazy expensive years ago but now more or less within reach of the individual player who really wants one. T2 stuff has gone up in the last few months, but look at the price of a command ship 2 years ago vs now. The reason for all of this is more people playing the game. More missions runners doing their thing pulls more minerals and LPs out of the universe and into the market, more droneland bots pushing minerals into the market. Allot of botter probably keep the minerals to themselves, but everyone has a certain marginal propensity to sell their stuff so more people means more goods are available and thus they get cheaper. I guess the main point I was trying to get at is that yes there are isk faucets which create new currency, the mineral and other resource faucets in the game are so much greater that it doesn't matter.
A stock system or bonds has been discussed for years. However like dark said it would only bring way to much complexity for what its worth.
Oh I know that, I just think it would be cool if there were a formal mechanism for it so that you wouldn't have to keep your own spreadsheets of everything. And if CCP tried this they would probably muck it up to the point that keeping your own spreadsheets would still be easier.
ive learned nothing from this thread honestly wtf
OPP Bitch
I've learnt that I cannot stand marketing or industry
Going back to this:
The reality of falling prices just demonstrates that the creation of objects (i.e. the productivity of the rest of EVE) is outpacing the EVE universe's inflation rate. That can mean any of a number of things, but I bet the core reasons are that farmers/bots generate more "stuff" (mining, mission loot/salvage, faction items from LP, drone regions, wormhole mats, etc) than they do ISK (bounties, mission rewards, wormhole blue loot) and that hence we are in a deflationary environment. It's the only explanation.
Titans are selling pretty high atm as well? And EVERY new ship is very expensive when first released and then goes down in price, that's the price for people wanting new shiny stuff. The more expensive/shiny/useful/production difficulty the ship is the longer it takes to drop to a reasonable price. Most prices have stayed largely the same in the last couple of years, the change has been pretty negligible. And also as you say there are more players producing more stuff.
The price of something does not always mean inflation. When pirate faction ships were only able to be purchased through the pirate agent LP store (the crappy one where you didn't get to choose what you got) the price was insane, in the billions. Which was a fortune back then, you could have bought enough plexs to last for years with it.
Or t2 stuff, before invention the price of some t2 guns were at 20m a piece, and rechargers had at 8, and overall it was very high. It had nothing to do with inflation it had everything to do with how "rare" it was. Why were supercaps uber expensive before? Have you tried building one before jump bridges and and jump freighters and rorquals? Have fun with that, the effort involved carried a very high premium. Overall eve has become a lot easier. It's A LOT harder to get caught ratting or really any sort of making isk, it's a lot easier to get minerals en masse (especially high ends, ie merx before t2 modulated and skiffs/hulks the price was great now it's pretty low-isk per hour).
EvE has become far less "hardcore" to invite new players, and now we are paying the price (and it's lower :P).
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How much would the insurance isk faucet generate if default insurance payments were removed?
?"eve's a bad mmo, really bad, it's only saving grace is the people playing it, which i guess doesn't say great things about the people playing other MMOs"
That's probably a good idea TBH :P
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It makes sense when you recall how insurance actually works in reality.
?"eve's a bad mmo, really bad, it's only saving grace is the people playing it, which i guess doesn't say great things about the people playing other MMOs"
Quick everyone, let's discuss what is and isn't a real life money sink!
?"eve's a bad mmo, really bad, it's only saving grace is the people playing it, which i guess doesn't say great things about the people playing other MMOs"
Women.
+
Also EvE :P
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If you're saying women aren't a real-life money sink, then I've got systems for sale in delve.
Only for you evil RMTing russians. :trollface:
Sub fees? :< And if you pay in plex opportunity cost, and almost everyone's paid at least once or twice :< So has the general view shifted now from Russians sell isk to Russians buy isk?
Also I'm not Russian nor am I in the DRF. :P
I am saying they are :< I know they are... I + repped him for that, it was a good answer.
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You're in star trek?
What?
edit: oh the location, it's from this (though yes I know it's originally the star trek line.)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...8631377176763#
2nd edit: and eve is space, the final frontier ;p
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I figured. I've just always wanted to use the "bridge to sell you" line.
I think that we are pretty much in agreement about all of this...things are cheaper because they are easier to produce now (due to rorquals and jump freighters and invention mechanics) than they were back in the day. Also as more people get into the production of new items the price goes down.
I am calling this deflation because the isk that is in your wallet will buy more stuff than it did a year ago. Which is not necessarily true of each thing in particular, but the average of the stuff that most people buy (a basket of goods that reflects the things that the average player uses and loses on a regular basis) has gotten cheaper over any time period that you look at. Why doesn't really matter (as you have correctly pointed out most of these reasons have little to do with isk faucets and sinks themselves (which is the point that I wanted to make at the beginning) but the fact that due to game mechanics and people getting better at wasting time on this silly game we are able to produce more stuff), your isk goes further than it did in the past.
Started out as a trolling thread, and then degenerated?
I'm impressed.
I can't decide where PLEX would fall... They don't seem like a sink or a faucet, just isk moving from one person to another.
living, and dying, basically anything
dont hate me cuz you aint me
I'd say that it's isk neutral for the most part, but it can probably be argued that it can act as an isk faucet if someone decides to reactivate their char with a plex. That's a stretch, though.
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