Q3 Quarterly Economic Newsletter

[Aokisensei]

The Quarterly Economic Newsletter for the third quarter was just released.

It's a good read. Some interesting points:

- The fastest growing shiptype was Supercarriers, which showed 40.08% growth, with their numbers going from 963 to 1349. Titans were the 7th fastest growing, growing 14.56% (364 to 417). Dreads were the 2nd fastest growing (27.32%, 593 to 755)

- 800,000 ships were lost in the last quarter.

- A majority of final kills in nullsec space are made by players with 50m skillpoints, or more. Less than 4% are made with players with less than 10m SP.

- The shiptype that got the most final blows in PvP: Hurricane (29,346), edging out the Drake (24,012) and leaving the Vagabond a distant third (13,296)

- Top ships lost in PvP: Drake (14,057), Rifter (11,724), Hurricane (10,162)

- Top 5 ships in use: Hulk, Drake, Kestrel, Rifter, Bestower, in that order. No surprises there. Electronic Attack Ships are the least popular category. More players fly Titans than Electronic Attack Ships (titans being 2nd least popular)

- Population of wormhole space continues to be the fastest-growing area (6.57%). Nullsec saw modest growth, empire space saw a small loss.

- Population distribution in nullsec changed dramatically: the "east" sector (Scalding Pass, Wicked Creek, Insmother, Detorid, Cache, Curse, GW - former Atlas territories basically), declined 32.58% from the last quarter (from 15,526 to 10,468).

CCP completely forgot Omist when they divided nullsec into sectors, leaving the region out of the report entirely (and nothing of value was lost) Apparantly its numbers are still included in the total for the Southeast sector.

The two fastest growing nullsec sectors were the "south" (Delve, Querious, Period Basis, Stain, Esoteria, Paragon Soul) at 26.94% (9,499 to 12,058) and the "west" (Deklein, Fade, Pure Blind, CR, OR, Syndicate, Fountain) at 19.85% (16,238 to 19,461). This is an actual quote from the article:

The west sector has seen remarkable growth this quarter after the arrival and rapid growth of two new alliances in the Deklein region.

:goons:

- Jita remains the most popular trade hub by a large margin and saw continued growth.

- The average ISK in the wallet of an active player is just under 350 million. There is 226 trillion ISK total in all active players' wallets combined, with an additional 30 trillion in corporation wallets.

- Insurance payouts totaled only 1.5 trillion ISK in September, down from 5.9 trillion in May

- Just under 70 trillion ISK in bounties was paid out, growing over 16% from the last quarter. This accounts for most of the growth in the money supply even given the insurance changes.

- The LP store is the largest ISK sink in the game, taking out over 10 trillion. Clone fees are the 5th largest, sinking 1.5 trillion.

- About 2 trillion in sov fees were paid during the quarter.

- The top 5 ISK sinks in the game (LP store, transaction tax, broker's fee, sov bills, and clone fees) only equaled 31% of the amount of bounty payouts (21 trillion)

- Mineral prices continue to decrease, especially low-end minerals.

- The Consumer Price Index continued to rise, driven by rising POS fuel costs other than ice products. These fuel components are now made through PI since June, which had an incredible effect: their price rose 182% in July, 45% in August, before coming down a little in September.

- 792 Billion ISK worth of Drakes were lost in the quarter. Only 183 Billion worth of Nyxes were lost. 6.9 trillion ISK total worth of ships were lost, not counting modules or POS structures.

- Supercapitals continue to be produced at a breakneck pace, with SCs rather than titans making up most of the production (September: about 170 SCs, 21 titans. see figure 21 for the whole graph.) For comparison, in September 2009 these numbers were about 30 SCs and 35 titans.

- An average of 136 TCUs are destroyed each month. The introduction of TCUs didn't seem to put a significant dent in the amount of POS warfare.


All in all, some pretty interesting information.

[fulis]

- 792 Billion ISK worth of Drakes were lost in the quarter. Only 183 Billion worth of Nyxes were lost. 6.9 trillion ISK total worth of ships were lost, not counting modules or POS structures.

The way I read that was that Nyxes landed final blows on 183 bn ISK worth of ships

[Aokisensei]

The way I read that was that Nyxes landed final blows on 792 bn ISK worth of ships

No. It has nothing to do with what ship landed the final blow. It's simply comparing the value of all the Drakes lost vs the value of all the Nyxes lost.

[fulis]

Ok, simple math for you:
It says 10162 hurricanes were lost, that hurricanes got final blows on ships for a total value of 2.6 times the value of hurricanes destroyed and that hurricanes got final blows on 697 bn worth of ships. So if I'm right then the price of a hurricane hull should be 697,000,000,000 / ( 10162 * 2.6 ) and what's that? 26 mil
Seems like I'm right

Also, I meant that Nyxes got final blow on 183 bn worth of ships I just read the wrong number off the column

[jimmychrist]

Electronic Attack Ships are the least popular category. More players fly Titans than Electronic Attack Ships (titans being 2nd least popular)

This is one of my favorite dead horses to flog. Four quarters in a row. I mean it's just the perfect argument for something being messed up. And it's not being fucking fixed until maybe the next expansion. I fucking despise CCP. DESPISE!

[Malcanis]

Almost twice as many moms as dreads. Heh.

[Mord Fiddle]

This is one of my favorite dead horses to flog. Four quarters in a row. I mean it's just the perfect argument for something being messed up. And it's not being fucking fixed until maybe the next expansion. I fucking despise CCP. DESPISE!

And yet you play their game. Hmmm.

I assume you're talking about electronic attack ships here vs Titans. What is the fix you're looking for?

[Mord Fiddle]

Almost twice as many moms as dreads. Heh.

Aye - the Dread is definitely in eclipse. Not enough utility for the cost and training time.

[Aokisensei]

Aye - the Dread is definitely in eclipse. Not enough utility for the cost and training time.

Yet they're still the 2nd fastest growing shiptype.

[mkd0815]

Almost twice as many moms as dreads. Heh.

what many people do not see is that a MOM pilot is always in his MOM . the same goes for a Titan pilot ...

a DREAD pilot is only in his dread if there is a Fleet OP going ... or at least most will do it that way. the rest of the time they are in another ship or even in a POD to clonejump to the next fight

[teds]

And yet you play their game. Hmmm.

I assume you're talking about electronic attack ships here vs Titans. What is the fix you're looking for?

frigates in particular seem to be a pain to give purpose too - intys and AF's are too close atm (ranis/sader compare to some of the gankier AFs) and the EAFs are just...underwhelming. I'd be in favour of just scrapping the class, and maybe pushing AF's towards the pocket ewar role.

[Kaeydan]

Fucking drakes.

[jimmychrist]

And yet you play their game. Hmmm.

It's a great game, despite it flaws it stands up real well to all the effort CCP have put into destroying what they built in the first place. Also, sometimes they make a good call. Often it takes them longer than should be humanly possible, but it happens.

I assume you're talking about electronic attack ships here vs Titans. What is the fix you're looking for?

What I'm talking about is the fact that there are certain classes of ships seeing less use than the end-game spacedicks. It's not just EAS. Without being arsed to look it up properly, I believe Black Ops are about as common as titans.

I think there's no blanket fix for EAS, but in general the problem is that they die way too easily.

[HandofSatan [banned]]

What is the fix you're looking for?

Give it a bonus to covert ops cloaking and make the EWAR frig cloaky, the mini version of the force recon cruisers.

[jimmychrist]

Give it a bonus to covert ops cloaking and make the EWAR frig cloaky, the mini version of the force recon cruisers.

Fuck no. Not more cloakers.

[Kiko V]

Give it a bonus to covert ops cloaking and make the EWAR frig cloaky, the mini version of the force recon cruisers.

Why not just add more nano-fag ships while you're at it?

[Devil on a Hog]

Why not just add more nano-fag ships while you're at it?

DO THIS!

[tgr]

- The fastest growing shiptype was Supercarriers, which showed 40.08% growth, with their numbers going from 963 to 1349. Titans were the 7th fastest growing, growing 14.56% (364 to 417). Dreads were the 2nd fastest growing (27.32%, 593 to 755)

- A majority of final kills in nullsec space are made by players with 50m skillpoints, or more. Less than 4% are made with players with less than 10m SP.

- The shiptype that got the most final blows in PvP: Hurricane (29,346), edging out the Drake (24,012) and leaving the Vagabond a distant third (13,296)

- Top ships lost in PvP: Drake (14,057), Rifter (11,724), Hurricane (10,162)

- Top 5 ships in use: Hulk, Drake, Kestrel, Rifter, Bestower, in that order.

In other words, nerf supercarriers, nerf dreads, nerv rifters, nerf drakes, nerf hurricanes and nerf hulks. Oh, and nerf high SP.</CCP logic>

[RansomList]

Nerf Drakes.

[Arrador]

Fucking drakes.

How do they work?

[RansomList]

How do they work?

[MpozoY]

I think there's no blanket fix for EAS, but in general the problem is that they die way too easily.

Make their sig radius retardedly small, such that the only thing that can touch them is another frigate. Make sure none of them can do any DPS worth a shit first (pretty sure this is already the case). Ideally you'd even take out the frigate V grind and just give them some other prereqs (elec V, propulsion jamming 4, whatever their bonus is for 4 or 5) that would let someone jump into them with a reasonably casual 3-5 week skillplan. Voila, newbie swarms in unkillable target painting multispec jamming tacklers speedtanking your warrior ii's

[Nicky D]

why can't richard feynman just say he doesn't know how magnets work?

[Comunique]

- Top 5 ships in use: Hulk, Drake, Kestrel, Rifter, Bestower, in that order. No surprises there. Electronic Attack Ships are the least popular category. More players fly Titans than Electronic Attack Ships (titans being 2nd least popular)

Battle Keres rock because no one expects it and Sentinels are good if you know wtf you're doing.

Hyenas and Kitsunes (outside of AT) blow ass.

[Kireiina]

The Assault Frigates need a little bit more to be worth fielding as anything other than a stepping stone (like their fourth bonus). Though I wonder if balancing / nerfing T2 ammo would help that as well. It is the excellent tracking of scorch zealots which helps to contribute to the very short lives of anything frigate sized.

Electronic warfare also has the long term problem of when this game becomes super-caps online they bring no value at all.

I do like MpozoY's idea of having a potent EAF frigate that needs frigates to counter it. Each category of ship fighting the opposition of its own hull class is probably the only stable long-term balance. Well outside of CCP's abilities though.

The document pretty clearly shows a game heading towards mudflation. Mining destroyed as a noobie profession, PvP massively favoring the high-SP players and null-sec warfare becoming more and more about a ship that takes a long time to get into / afford. You'd have to wonder on who could honestly advise a new player now is a good time to start.

[Comunique]

The Assault Frigates need a little bit more to be worth fielding as anything other than a stepping stone (like their fourth bonus). Though I wonder if balancing / nerfing T2 ammo would help that as well. It is the excellent tracking of scorch zealots which helps to contribute to the very short lives of anything frigate sized.

With the rocket patch, Hawks and Vengeances are going to roll and you're going to wish you had not said that.

Wolves and Jaguars are still decent to good. It's all the others that are junk.

[Kaeydan]

I think this publication highlights there is not enough rock/paper/scissors/lizard/spock and that some types of ships are too flexible.

[Kireiina]

Already bought up a bunch of hawks, they're damn cheap atm... being pretty much worthless currently. I should probably buy some more.

They're still not good enough to be a fleet mainstay though I suspect? Give them the speed bonus that was suggested and they'll be mean little ships that are good fun to fly.

[Nicky D]

What about giving EAF's a role bonus of like 50-100% to the optimal range of their respective EWAR types?

[MpozoY]

What about giving EAF's a role bonus of like 50-100% to the optimal range of their respective EWAR types?

None of that matters if you can slap the side of your monitor and all the EAFs on grid explode. Any fix to them starts with "give them the sig radius of a golf ball" and moves forward from there

I really really want to fly a Hyena that doesn't suck balls

[ihaveahelmet]

What about giving EAF's a role bonus of like 50-100% to the optimal range of their respective EWAR types?

Unless i'm mistaken, currently a kitsune can't even lock as far as it can jam.

[RansomList]

Most of the EAF's need faction mods to even attempt what they are supposed to, be it neuts webs

Hyena wants a 5% V bonus, huge sig reduction bonus, web range and strength bonus along with +1 mid and huge increase in CPU. My only foray into flying them ended in nearly getting vaped by every fucker with scorch loaded and not being fast enough to avoid the drone cloud.

Hell, even a heavy missile volley from a Drake hurts them.

[Kaeydan]

The problem is the mods for a frigate class ship are as expensive as the mods for a cruiser or battleship class ship, when you lose a frigate then you still have a very high module cost but the ship costs peanuts. While different sizes of rigs helped to improve their appeal to fly, the fitting cost as a ratio to the value of the ship is too high.

You will have a higher module cost for a larger ship due to more fitting slots in general, but the bigger ships also put out a lot more damage and can take a lot more damage. The mid-class ships are very versatile against both larger and smaller ships.

[jimmychrist]

The slotcost for any given module is generally higher for frigs because the slotcount is lower. Generally speaking, with larger shipclasses you can throw an ewar mod or something on there without gimping either tank or gank or speed too bad.

[RansomList]

Larger hulls usually have some kind of penalty for having that slot freedom though....

CCP's idea of diversity is to excel at nothing, thats why we get sub optimal slot layouts throughout the minmatar lineup for tanking with Lows and Mids frankly a bit of a mess or not ideal for emphasizing the best traits of a ship.

Point in case, Hurricane has too many lows for something that should aim to shield tank and make use of higher base agility and speed than other hulls and Cyclone simply needs more mids to support a shield tank. Especially the kind the ship is bonused for. Similarly the Maelstrom could do with losing a low for a mid so it can have an active tank without dropping tackle or speed mods.

At the lower end of the scale with small ships like Assault frigs and EAF's the problems are magnified.

I'm pretty sure most of these design issues stem from balancing ships for PVE where the competition for slots is far less and that its all just trickled down to the point where something like an EAF that will never be used in PVE thanks to target saturation (hordes of shit NPC's rather than a few dangerous targets) is gimped.

[Hratli Smirks]

I think this publication highlights there is not enough rock/paper/scissors/lizard/spock and that some types of ships are too flexible.

I think that it highlights the fact that a lot of ships are really terrible

[Dastommy]

Eve is dead. No one wants to play grab fanny in whatever alliance i am in atm chat. This is a sure sign of the end of days. Where have all the old guard gone?

[RansomList]

Where have all the old guard gone?

greasy degeneration

But really, EVE has a weird attrition rate compared to other MMO's.

Bitter vets never really stop playing EVE, but they might not login anymore or do so infrequently and probably aren't paying subs. Its like being a member of a decent club and keeping in touch with the crowd that also has residency there but never actually going there; because the foods horrible, the barman has serial killer eyes and its full of :shudder: yuppies talking too loudly and people that say they work in 'media'.

We might be playing WOT or Civ 5 (I'm actually avoiding this game until i'm no longer a student 0.o ) but we are still playing EVE. Or something.

[Kaeydan]

We might be playing WOT or Civ 5 (I'm actually avoiding this game until i'm no longer a student 0.o ) but we are still playing EVE. Or something.

I started to play Civ5 but there is a major design flaw which allows you to spam cities every 2 hexes so you have one of two options, cav rush or city spam. It is just mediocre game play.

[Kaeydan]

I think that it highlights the fact that a lot of ships are really terrible

It is true, I wouldn't really consider flying 2/3rds of the ships in EVE, but thankfully 1/3rd is still a lot of options. Most ships are just ho-hum or do not really bring anything to the table.

[Divus]

drakedrakedrake

[fulis]

Luckily we still have Civ 1 & 2 =)

[MpozoY]

Still trying to reinforce Hoover Dam

Also no one ever shits up alliance chat, you should try your squad channels

[Internet Spaceship Man]

I started to play Civ5 but there is a major design flaw which allows you to spam cities every 2 hexes so you have one of two options, cav rush or city spam. It is just mediocre game play.

Fall from Heaven 2 will blow your fucking mind.

[jimmychrist]

It is true, I wouldn't really consider flying 2/3rds of the ships in EVE, but thankfully 1/3rd is still a lot of options. Most ships are just ho-hum or do not really bring anything to the table.

Yeah, the tier system kinda fucks you over. I mean when was the last time someone flew a cyclone for any other reason than the lulz? Sure, once in a while some eft warrior will "prove that it's viable and you're all schmucks" but the effort involved is always a pain in the ass, and it's much easier to just hop in hurricane.

On the other hand though, there's this:

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/magazin...gcom/daily/mr5
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazin...om/daily/mr11b

Both those articles are interesting when you discuss game designs with "combinatory elements." Not everything translates over to eve, of course, but enough of it does.

[Ackaroth]

Yeah, the tier system kinda fucks you over. I mean when was the last time someone flew a cyclone for any other reason than the lulz? Sure, once in a while some eft warrior will "prove that it's viable and you're all schmucks" but the effort involved is always a pain in the ass, and it's much easier to just hop in hurricane.

On the other hand though, there's this:

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/magazin...gcom/daily/mr5
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazin...om/daily/mr11b

Both those articles are interesting when you discuss game designs with "combinatory elements." Not everything translates over to eve, of course, but enough of it does.

Great reads, glad I took the time. Very applicable indeed.

[Kaeydan]

Fall from Heaven 2 will blow your fucking mind.

Is that mod out yet? I loved it in Civ4.

[Kaeydan]

Yeah, the tier system kinda fucks you over. I mean when was the last time someone flew a cyclone for any other reason than the lulz? Sure, once in a while some eft warrior will "prove that it's viable and you're all schmucks" but the effort involved is always a pain in the ass, and it's much easier to just hop in hurricane.

On the other hand though, there's this:

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/magazin...gcom/daily/mr5
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazin...om/daily/mr11b

Both those articles are interesting when you discuss game designs with "combinatory elements." Not everything translates over to eve, of course, but enough of it does.

Very good articles, and as an ex-player of MtG I disagree with him about the need for shit 'rare' cards. Too many shit cards stopped me collecting, thus stopped me playing, if you don't collect then it was difficult to keep playing. So in my opinion he is wrong because of all the people I knew that played MtG, none continued with it so the strategy can't be that great.

The issue the first writer said is not that WotC made shit cards, but deliberately made shit rare cards, ie, usually the only card of value in a booster. He can bullshit as much as he likes but it is all about milking money, shit rares mean players have to buy more boosters to get the cards they want. You can print shit commons and uncommons until the cows come home and nobody would really care, because they come in such quantities that people used them to stop tables wobbling and windows rattling. But when you open a booster and it has a shit rare it kills you a little bit inside every time until you cop the straw that breaks the camel's back. Those unaffected are sad addicts and WotC could ship a box full of turds and the fan boys would love it.

EVE is different because it is not a collectible game. You have easy access to pretty much anything in the game. My original character can fly everything outside of capitals for every race and a good amount of the caps, all EVE ships are common. Having a shit ship is just a ship that nobody flies, it is not like you paid a month's subscription and you had to fly some piece of shit for that month.

That is why design is important in game like this, because a shit ship design just means one less option for players to fly.

The only reason we get flavor of the month ships is because they change the game mechanics to "balance" shit up, it is why drakes are popular now.

[6pac]

Oh, thanks for compiling it, was a good read.

[Internet Spaceship Man]

Is that mod out yet? I loved it in Civ4.

I don't think they're making it for Civ 5, seeing as the lead designer is trying to take the diseased hulk that is Elemental and make it decent. Before that he was working on a stand-alone FfH game, but that unfortunately ran into financial issues. Maybe someone will pick it up, but the lead designer is a goddamned genius, so I doubt it will be the same.