My point is, the whole way OWN conducted the situation was retarded. It's my opinion that due to the proximity of Test Alliance Please Ignore, that OWN shouldn't provide it anyway. This is what is subject to opinion.
What I do believe is that OWN shouldn't even have let things get to the point of the key being asked, and even when it did, the refusal could have been conducted much better. Even if the end result was the same, exhausting diplomacy without coming off as a retard would have helped to at least create a reasonable doubt, and save some face diplomacy-wise. Not towards you, but towards the rest of the NC. There are a number of reasons to refuse the key, all better than saying 'because we just don't want to'. In the end, nobody likes a retard, and seeking a future away from Goon Swarm would probably prove more fruitful if said reasonable doubt was in place.
I'm not a lawyer, but I am a corporate director IRL, and one can spin numbers in many different ways, it's doing it intelligently, and the way you present them that makes the difference. Again, not to you, but to the public watching the circus, both internally and externally.
As it is, it was just a complete mess.
When your members personal assets are on the line, as a leader the responsible choice would be to comply. Since the OWN leaders felt that they had nothing to hide, then there shouldn't have been a issue with providing an API.
~strategic integral alliance information~ type it like that
Also, in a previous post, I have stated my opinion on how spreadsheets can reflect whatever I want them to.
In fact, I wouldn't dream that anyone with half a brain, would lead an alliance like Goon Swarm and have everything plastered on a public spreadsheet. If you actually believe that, I would say (with no wish no insult you) that you're naive.
TEST shall become an unstoppable juggernaut, destabilizing any who oppose us.
The end result is with a little bit of diplomacy and and willingness to work with the people who own their space OWN leadership and membership would have been set for life. You had more than enough money moons that every PvP pilot could have lost a T2 ship every op and you'd still be in the black. Also OWN was offered free space in cloud ring and more ratting rights in Deklein which their leadership declined even though it would have been a boon for the membership. OWN was ripping its pilots off (through no reimbursements and poor leadership), was ripping Goons off (by wasting space) and was actively hostile about any suggestion they change. Them getting booted from Deklein was inevitable.
And they'll face exactly the same expectations wherever they go in the north and their host their will also boot them if they repeat their current approach.
Of course, all that requires , and it's much easier to just stick your fingers in your ears and go "LALALALALA THAT SPREADSHEET IS POTENTIALLY A LIE".
If my corp had a single tech moon we'd roll in faction errday. Also it's possible some people don't understand what an API lets you do, or rather not do. There is in fact no reason to NOT give an API unless you are market PvPing and its really obvious you are doing something like reselling stuff in NC space, which is not banned but 'frowned upon' by some groups.
Edit: Also I have an idea of how much ISK it takes to hold a developed constellation of sov post dominion and it is quite doable with that many high end moons, excluding all membership input.
Then prepare in advance for wrinkly forehead and permanently raised eyebrows. Train your other half in eyebrow massaging too it gets painful after a while.
1. TEST finds out that OWN only reimburses caps & dictors, despite having 6 tech moons
2. TEST realizes that they reimburse way more types of ships, for way more people, despite having only 2 tech moons
3. Durrhurrdurr gets hella bored one day, and decides to troll CU9 local
4. Goons/TEST notice a distinct lack of OWN pilots in DC fleets (this happens concurrently with 1-3)
5. TEST theorizes that lack of participation might be related to lack of reimbursement. Decides to reimburse OWN fleet losses for a weekend.
6. TESTAID is born, and a mission of mercy is sent to OWN space (this was for lols)
7. Goons try to work everything out peacefully (for once)
8. OWN leadership hurfblurfs horribly
9. TEST performs a rough audit of OWN's finances, finds 150bn isk missing (also done for lols)
10. Goons, concerned, perform more precise audit of OWN's finances, find ~100bn missing
11. OWN hurfblurfs further, refuses to participate in DC fleets, some corps leave for TEST
12. API is demanded
13. OWN turns the hurfblurf up to eleven
14. Mittens drops the hammer.
I assure you, there was little to no forethought going into this. I don't think anyone realized that OWN's leadership would prove to be THIS shitty and corrupt. It just kind of snowballed beyond our wildest dreams. This is one of those cases of truth being better than fiction, there's no way we could've successfully pulled off a troll of this magnitude purely through scheming.
Let me simplify NC policy regarding guests.
If your sponsor wants you to get the fuck out, you get the fuck out.
If RZR decides that they wants us (WTF) gone, we would have to leave. If Mittani wants OWN to get out, they GTFO. If the WIdots tell LAWN or something to leave they'd have to leave.
Sure, there are instances when alliances have problems with other alliance's guests and then they would probably talk with the sponsor alliance and figure out what to do, but ultimately it is on the sponsor to tell them to leave or not.
Please note that the only reason any of this was "destabilizing" is because OWN leadership is populated by mouth-breathing retards. They're the ones who decided to get Goons involved, they're the ones who pledged to not support DC ops until such a time as TEST would stop hurting their feelings, and they're the ones who seemed to have delusions of themselves as guests of the NC and not beholden to Goons.
The goon spreadsheet was linked above so it is a little pointless to try and do an external audit or hire spies
And from it I can see that goon ratting generates almost enough Isk (37.5 bn) to pay their Sov costs which is impressive. I'm not that great at reading eve finance spreadsheets, and to be honest I don't really care but it is still important in giving confidence the leadership isn't just lining their own pockets. That's not something any OWN pilot can say about their own leadership.
I've looked at it, and I look at many spreadsheets, and yes, it is potentially a lie. If you think that a spreadsheet and words like "seems to come" is the final word in an audit, then you don't know what you're saying, sorry. Considering that someone posted earlier in this thread that Goon Swarm has members who are IRL specialists in auditing and finance, makes it doable.Of course, all that requires , and it's much easier to just stick your fingers in your ears and go "LALALALALA THAT SPREADSHEET IS POTENTIALLY A LIE".
Again, this isn't even speculation and in no way am I even hinting at contrivance in that spreadsheet. Hence the words potentially and doable.
AgreedPlease note that the only reason any of this was "destabilizing" is because OWN leadership is populated by mouth-breathing retards. They're the ones who decided to get Goons involved, they're the ones who pledged to not support DC ops until such a time as TEST would stop hurting their feelings, and they're the ones who seemed to have delusions of themselves as guests of the NC and not beholden to Goons.
Maybe so, but it was still destabilizing and undermining. Don't get me wrong though, I personally thought it was hilarious, and give you guys the best of praise for the pictures, videos and I even laughed IRL when I saw the "police cord".I assure you, there was little to no forethought going into this. I don't think anyone realized that OWN's leadership would prove to be THIS shitty and corrupt. It just kind of snowballed beyond our wildest dreams. This is one of those cases of truth being better than fiction, there's no way we could've successfully pulled off a troll of this magnitude purely through scheming.
Think of it this way, lets say OWN was charged with something in court. The prosecution has a piece of evidence which suggests OWN is guilty. OWN claims that the evidence is incorrect. When asked to explain how the evidence is incorrect, OWN proceeds to throw their own feces at the judge while screaming incoherently about Jews. Sounds like a great plan to me.
MtA - give it up man. You will never win and you are coming across as a bit of a dick. Just saying.
I mean, given our recent financial history, lying to our membership about our finances would be a Bad Idea, and the spreadsheet is for our members. Since all our spies doubtless copied it already no harm in advertising it elsewhere.
here about my analysis of the TEST spreadsheet that was roughly what I'd told Mittani.
As for not giving GSF the API key because of TEST, at the end of the day OWN had its territory and moons because Goonswarm let them. And however much TEST was trolling OWN, the fact remains they stumbled on something quite compelling, and while the trolling wasn't our problem, deklein resources being wasted definitely was.
Even if our directorate was bathing in technetium, it wouldn't matter much in the grand scheme of things. What the spreadsheet does is say 'hey, we get about this much, we use it to fund these programs that you like, and there is enough to let us keep sov for X days.'
Whether anyone is skimming money off the top or not, we have confidence that things are going to be ok.
Speaking as a non-director in a shitty GSF pubbie-corp with no power or responsibility, I would take BCA over OWN as a neighbor every day of the week, after what this whole ordeal has shown us. And yet, while BCA was reset and shot at with little warning before they finally calmed the fuck down and moved on with their lives, OWN has been given a 7 day window to GTFO, with permission to finish their own supercapitals to use to whatever purposes they'd like to put them, for the time being.
I think that GSF (not speaking for TEST) has stretched their patience and understanding to levels that anyone would find beyond reasonable and accomodating.
The only thing TEST did that a reasonable person could say "undermined" OWN was when they started aggressively recruiting their corps while OWN's future in Deklein was in question. If TEST started aggressively recruiting TNT corporations the way they did with OWN, TNT would have a very valid complaint and GSF leadership would have probably felt the need to take steps. However, if your alliance's leadership isn't competent enough to make your corporations want to stay, then you don't deserve to keep them. After all, we're talking about OWN. When you take that into consideration, it's clear that TEST was doing God's work.
also i expect months of comedy to flow from following teredrum's continuing adventures in the north, as opposed to numenor who was a boring douchebag who just needed to be headshotted in a more traditional sense
This is really boring FYI
I agree. OWN seem to have realised the only path with any dignity is saying nothing to anyone. I'm not even sure there could be a forum leak given apparently nobody in OWN actually posts on it or dares ask questions.
we need some1 to record OWN vent meetings yo
Thats easily done,but it makes for boring listening when not even the crickets can be bothered turning up to chirp in the silence.Seriously,theres no one in there talking,Im guessing most are in NC comms shooting russian towers.
The forum might get one post a month by the way.
There was an initial twinge of sympathy for OWN who were being held to a standard that many NC alliances wouldn't pass. But they lost most of that with their whining to the NC leadership about their new landlords,
and managed to turn it around completely with their faked logs.Originally Posted by NC dilplomat/FC
Had Goons set them red then, most of the rest of NC would have followed in hours. For now they are being hosted in Vale of the Silent. That gives NC alliances time to plunder their useful membership, before theredrum manages to destroy any remaining relationship with the rest of the NC with his patently deranged behavior and delusions of competence.Originally Posted by NC diplomat/FC
One current debate is whether to relocate them to Kalvela Expanse or further east and leave them there.
When they get to Vale, their smart members won't unpack.
Look.. speaking as someone in TEST with no power (only responsibilities), I don't think there was any malicious intent at all. We were all pretty amazed that there was no real reimbursement for OWN pilots. Dreddit offered free rifters and frigs (and T1 mods) from pretty much day 1 of the corp and were offering reimbursements soon after. This was while we were still in Empire and pretty much destitute when it came to wealth. That OWN, with access to tech moons wouldn't be doing the same was both shocking and offensive to our sensibilities. As OWN was blue, we couldn't very well go on a shooting spree, so a bit of fun and harmless trolling seemed like a wonderful way to show our displeasure with the situation. The goal wasn't to destabilize OWN, or get them kicked from Dek, it was to embaras their leadership and get them to give their pilots reimbursements and to show up on ops!
TEST even went as far as offering reimbursements for OWN in a program that was FAR more inclusive than that offered to our own pilots. There were pretty much no restrictions. We dropped Rifters outside the station, we even blew up our own freighter in an act of solidarity. The trolling was quite humorous and designed to give both TEST and OWN a good laugh. Like the best trolls, it was intended to hold up an mirror to OWN and give them a bit of a chuckle and reason to change their ways. If a friend sees a friend acting like a dick, they don't just sit there, they say "Hey dude.. stop acting like a dick!" that is what friends are for.
The way this went was entirely the fault of OWN leadership. They claimed that they couldn't afford to pay for reimbursements so TEST did a quick and dirty audit simply to show that this was not the case. Had OWN leadership grown a pair, they would have had a laugh with the rest of EVE and started a reimbursement program and encouraging their members to join up on Dek Co. ops.
I am sorry that the OWN member feels such animosity towards TEST.. but I really can't see why they would have any real reason to. TEST was just a catalyst. It is either that or TEST trolled OWN out of Dek simply by being nice to them.
There's nothing to say, trust me. In fact, the last alliance e-mail (yesterday) sounded pretty desperate. I don't think there is any short-term plan for OWN at all, and given the ineptitude of its leadership, I don't think OWN will last long enough to be a long-term one.OWN seem to have realised the only path with any dignity is saying nothing to anyone. I'm not even sure there could be a forum leak given apparently nobody in OWN actually posts on it or dares ask questions.
Vent meetings... heh...we need some1 to record OWN vent meetings yo
I really don't. Not personally. I personally thought the UN campaign was funny as hell. I do believe OWN's leadership (I use this term loosely) have reason to feel animosity towards TEST though.I am sorry that the OWN member feels such animosity towards TEST.. but I really can't see why they would have any real reason to. TEST was just a catalyst. It is either that or TEST trolled OWN out of Dek simply by being nice to them.
From a pilot getting the boot out of Deklein, I felt griefed by TEST at one point. But had I been on the griefing end, I would be having a blast. It's just how it is