GSF, TEST and TNT are the 3 amigos.
Own is the random bum smelling the place up.
GSF, TEST and TNT are the 3 amigos.
Own is the random bum smelling the place up.
From my experience as a FC in OWN, flying with TEST/TNT/DEFY/BCA was always something I voted against. It was like hitting yourself with a sledgehammer everytime. When you went into a fight you only counted OWN pilots because the other pilots would always be dead within a minute fo the fight starting. And there was plenty of fights that ended that way too. Rifters, griffins, ospreys and shit when calling for armortanked 50-100km bs and guardians etc.Originally Posted by Lordo
But I can see how GOONS put all their concentration to fleet participation which OWN never did much for DekCo fleets under Goon leadership. I personally know why my corp avoided them fleets and figure the same might be true for the rest of OWN as well. Goon ops seem extremely disorganized and always chaotic on voicecomms which is quite the contrary from the fleets I've ran for OWN and which in many cases along with similiar NC fleets are the only bigger fleets people have flown in. Some people like playing like the GOONS do, some people don't. And I guess people prefer to fly the way they like (fleets with NC) rather than the ones they don't (Goon-type fleets). Can't do much about that.
This is nothing official from me as I've resigned from all fcing etc and my corp started moving their things out of Deklein over a month ago. The fiscal mismanagement (which it is, they really haven't stolen anything, they're just rather horrible at iskies) is not the reason behind it even if it has been a irritation in the past. Rather the fact that OWN simply isn't a pvp alliance and never really was, not even when fielding large enough fleets to fly as separate parts in NC CTA ops.
After whining a bit, here's a gem:
I like the idea of OWN leadership seeing this post and tearing through all their own mails and chat porn.
Even HD fleets were met with dozens of logoffs and psudo-afks. I'd like to think it was absence of PvP experiance and/or training. But the whole time I was in OWN I had difficulty retaining the cognitive dissonance that was required to believe that the bottom right hand end of Deklein was just to comfy of a spot for ratting. OWN space, with the exclusion of Evoke gangs looking for a piss and and random red ratters on their way to Venal, was an isolated bubble I left to go on NC staged business.
My experience with OWN fleets was like hitting yourself with a sledgehammer. As far as participation goes, All the NC OPs other members of Decimus and I partook in for months were just as short in OWN participation for NC when TCF held Deklein. It sounds to me like nothing has changed with goons living there.
To be completely fair, TCF wasn't really doing a whole lot on NC participation either. From what I understand, They moved out to "Revitalize the Alliance".
Sounds like overheated damage control II to me.
So Goons and TEST are shit at pvp whereas the almighty OWN, who you’ve left since they aren’t really a pvp alliance, has it streamlined running fleets that “in many cases along with similiar NC fleets are the only bigger fleets people have flown in”? Now it may just be me, but I thought it was more or less generally agreed that evoke wasn’t shit. How come they aren’t kicking Goons in the teeth then? Cannot be arsed to constantly targeting a new rifter??
I really have no reason to do damagecontrol. We've been leaving the alliance for over a month, just making sure all our members stuff get out. I hope some of the people in OWN do well, but there are some people who are just.. yeah.
Ev0ke are pretty good. But with the lag that has been, fighting outnumbered 2 to 1 hasn't really been viable in most cases. Whenever numbers have been about the same Ev0ke has won though. Just a observation but feel free to prove me wrong. Its possible that I've missed something as I've only joined a very few goonfleets. And yeah.. Under my leadership in fleets we had pretty streamlined fleets. Mostly because I was pretty rough on people who brought the wrong ships/fits. But there's always that one guy... isn't there?
With all due respect – you are changing your line of argument. Above it was that OWN could bring large harmonized fleets although not being a pvp alliance. Goons on the other hand are disarrayed bunch that’ll bring whatever. Now as to why they aren’t being kicked in the teeth the answer is that Goons fight 2:1 in lag and therefore win. I’d submit that if Ev0ke is the capable bunch we all seem to agree they are they’d be perfectly able to beat a fleet double their size consisting of random “Rifters, griffins, ospreys and shit”.
Two examples;
http://killboard.ev0ke.de/?a=kill_related&kll_id=116529 Ask for a drake army, get a drake army. (Goon side +40).
http://killboard.ev0ke.de/?a=kill_related&kll_id=116537 Goon side outnumbering sure, but I don’t see that many rifters and shit.
I’m not denying that goons use numbers. They have them, they’d be stupid not to. And I’m not denying that Ev0ke would kick them in the teeth in equal numbers. I’m just having a hard time swallowing that OWN should be as good as you portrait them and Goons as bad. (Not good – as bad… They have to be doing something right.)
But hey, as Churchill I have often had to eat my own words, and have found them a wholesome diet.
I don't think I've ever seen an alliance so divorced from reality. if you are living in a house with some room mates much more powerful than you its a good idea to be friendly, laugh at their dumb jokes and make at least a token effort to participate in their parties. Believing yourself to be too "srs bsns" (50-100km armor BS for cripes sake), lines like "When we decided to invite GSF to live in our former big home" (from the alliance leader), refusing to join regional wars in favor of token participation in a fight on the other side of the universe, pocketing huge amounts of funds (100bn is not "being bad at iskies") and declining to explain where the money has gone (either by working it out themselves or providing an API) is just asking for tension. On top of that you just personally managed to suggest that TEST/TNT suck and Goons only win battles because of lag.
If OWN is really the serious business that you portrait them to be they should have no trouble fending of a bunch of rag tag fleets composed of rifters and ospreys right?
Don't think he was saying gewns brought shit,just the other DC crew.Didn't see him say GSF were shit either,just that they were too disorganised and chaotic on comms for him and his corp.
Also,that mail is not from Redrum,its forwarded on by him,originally sent to him from someone in TCF.
As ladel said, I initially found it extremely hard to join a goon fleet, especially when there are other big NC ops going on, many of which OWN has contributed a lot to. Recently, after having sorted out the goons stupid teamspeak registration, I made an effort to try and join some goon fleets. So far they have been:
Small 20 man shieldfleet, disorganised FC so we spent 3 hours getting nothing
Big drakefleet, bashed an ev0ke pos. A few rifters died because there are still TESTies that bring rifters to those ops and don't listen to the FC. No opposition/fight.
"Wormhole Safari" as the fleet name claimed, we had ~50 if I remember right, went to delve, spent a good couple of hours trying to catch "a ratter" then went home, no kills, for a good hour we sat on 1 gate doing nothing.
A few nights ago there was another drakefleet, which had nice numbers in it, then in a rush of what seemed like bad intel our fleet had to bailski from the evoke drakefleet. And of course during this fleet goon comms was full of bitching, whining, annoying goons, constanyly arguing with one another, very poor organisation.
As opposed to the 2 most recent OWN fleets I have been on, both homedef fleets, FCed by ladel, and even though in DEK space (not even OWN space) no DC alliance apart from OWN turned up on these fleets;
http://own.killmail.org/?a=kill_related&kll_id=7772604
An awesome fight where we lost 3 ships to Ev0kes 13, similar numbers at the start although Ev0ke had nastier ships than us, awesome FCing by Ladel and proper shiptypes made sure we won.
Other fleet we chased off a black something alliance roaming gang with a similar sized gang, sustained no losses.
OWN is currently lacking in the 'experienced active pvpers' department imo, I couldn't care less about the reimbursement as it is - reimbursing logis but not HACs etc. encourages people to fly them, nothing wrong with that at all. And if each member of TEST is too poor to buy a replacement ship on their own, thumbs up to them, but theres nothing like a bit of corp ratting once in a while.
Well appearently you dont have a fucking clue what TEST/GSF is about when you see rifters as a problem.
edit: bolded the funny part.
This is just bullshit, Goons are good at PvP and have many experienced pilots, sure they encourage newbies in rifters etc who usually get popped fairly quickly - big deal. Goon FCs get the fleets they want and normally do well. It's strange that you talk about armor tanked fleets because we specialize in shield tanked fleets probably at a 3 or 4-1 ratio. New FCs are encouraged to have a go which leads to a few whelp moments, personally I'm a believer in letting people learn their craft.
You obviously have a deep hatred of goons, were we mean to you in local?
The perfect goon fleet is where everyone has a laugh, gets popped but achieves the strategic objective. The idea of the FC being some sort of god is alien to goon culture
You mistake chaotic voice coms as a sign of incompetence, coms on a goon op are hilarious, however when the FC demands quiet he/she gets it. It's a game, we play to have fun, not have some sanctimonious prick of a FC, suck the joy out of life.
The few OWN pilots I've flown with have been competent but are conspicuous by their lack of numbers. The Dek coalition is supposed to work together for the good of the region, currently OWN are bludging. OWN's reputation obviously inspires terror in the roving reds who seem to gravitate to their systems like a pedo to a pre-school. Hopefully they'll read your post and realize their mistake.
Goons up until recently didn't give a rats arse about OWNs incompetent leadership, but when a pissant alliance in the Dek coalition states they hate Goons and Test and have no interest in working together, well let's put it this way, it's probably just as well you've left OWN; I suspect it's not going to end well.
So, you’ve been on a few ladel fleets? Way I read it you just called him out on stating that he’s “resigned from all fcing etc and my corp started moving their things out of Deklein over a month ago”.
But sod that, ppl are starting to appear in this thread with their first Kugu post to defend OWN. When is someone in TEST going to leak the mail/convo from OWM leadership with the “omg our members have started reading Kugu, and we look like perfect asshats. We must start posting”?
@Neckbeard; you are right as to the what they bring paragraph. I do, however, have a hard time seeing being “extremely disorganized and always chaotic on voicecomms” translate to anything but being shit. (You cannot win extremely disorganized, even 2:1 and in lag.) And the second post of his I have a hard time reading differently.
Goon comms can be chaotic during travel times and such (not to mention it's TS2, wtf?), but last time I saw someone in a Goon fleet shitting up comms during an inappropriate time, the FC killed, podded & kicked the dude from fleet.
And all those Rifters? Those are our newbies. We don't have a recruitment freeze. Ever. We'll take 3 day old characters on strategic ops because fuck yes, why not? Let the kids have fun while they train for our mandatory Titan skills. We in TEST also try to not avoid ops just because we can't fly exactly what's requested. You want armour fleet, and I fly shield? Fuck that I'm bringing a Drake. Deal with it.'
Finally, to end off my first shitpoast on Kugu, how the fuck do you lose ONE HUNDRED BILLION ISK? Did Dr. Evil ransom your space or something? If I don't get answers, I'm sending DurrHurrDurr back to your space.
Quoting my own post from earlier.When Decimus Corp joined our primary concern was getting into good fleets for our members and for those of us who had poured love and work into the corp, taking the corp further then Empire Wardecs. We were not super concerned with owning Titans and moons. OWNs corp recruitment policy was lax (They didn't request any API's and didn't even request that we do the same for our own potential members until halfway through our stay in Deklein) and if they were half as shitty as they turned out to be, we'd at least be getting some 0.0 time under our belt as a corp and could hopefully springboard off of them. Unfortunately, as much as they sucked to be a simple average member, they were excruciating to be a directorate for. It was also sinking in even if having OWN on our resume meant something, it wouldn't by the time we proved ourselves to any other alliance. The two primary admins of the corp became almost completely disenfranchised with EvE as a whole. I just went back to empire to jew with my alts. Amongst ourselves, on our forums separate from OWN's, the general consensus was that we had joined a worthless ISK whoring alliance and mocked the participation of pilots, the communication skills of the fragmented, unreasonably demanding, and arrogant leadership of our OWN alliance.
The end result was a couple of us quitting playing EvE for any amount of time, but most of us just scattered, with a few of us telling OWN that they were the worst alliance we had ever had the misfortune to be a member of on our way out, and one of us singing "The Song That Never Ends" in Local for close to 35 mins.
Any suggestions any of our 0.0 experienced people had were shot down with non-sense, for the only reason I can imagine is that no one but "Leadership" were allowed to have good ideas. My favorite was after a fleet Ladel botched vs. the famous Sniper HAC gang in CU9. He screamed in vent at all members of the fleet for sucking so bad, then in the same breath bitched and moaned about spies knowing who was target caller as he was waylayed first, then the next target caller, then the next. I suggested in vent that it might be a good idea, as long as we know spies are present, that we put a target caller in a cloaky ship out of fleet so we'd have a target caller that can actually focus on calling targets instead of splodin' attempting to whore mails. The response I got was that cloaky target callers only work in small gangs. O.o
The OWN forum I'm still privy to (despite the fact that I haven't been affiliated with OWN or Decimus Corp since August) is inactive as hell. It's been that way since Decimus joined and really the only info on it that would be somewhat interesting to anyone is NC fleet op schedule's that no one in the alliance seems to read. That's unless one finds OWN people bickering about why their fleets suck so bad interesting. The best thing that ever happened in their forums was the link that lead me to this thread.
Bolded parts should hit home. My experiences in your fleets leave the distinct impression that your expertise doesn't leave much room for patience or clear communication. So forgive me if anyone takes your criticism of alliances OWN people have a problem finding their way into. You should forgive Burga (Only member of Decimus to stay with OWN, I believe), I think OWN is his first 0.0 alliance.This is just bullshit, Goons are good at PvP and have many experienced pilots, sure they encourage newbies in rifters etc who usually get popped fairly quickly - big deal. Goon FCs get the fleets they want and normally do well. It's strange that you talk about armor tanked fleets because we specialize in shield tanked fleets probably at a 3 or 4-1 ratio. New FCs are encouraged to have a go which leads to a few whelp moments, personally I'm a believer in letting people learn their craft.
You obviously have a deep hatred of goons, were we mean to you in local?
The perfect goon fleet is where everyone has a laugh, gets popped but achieves the strategic objective. The idea of the FC being some sort of god is alien to goon culture
You mistake chaotic voice coms as a sign of incompetence, coms on a goon op are hilarious, however when the FC demands quiet he/she gets it. It's a game, we play to have fun, not have some sanctimonious prick of a FC, suck the joy out of life.
The few OWN pilots I've flown with have been competent but are conspicuous by their lack of numbers. The Dek coalition is supposed to work together for the good of the region, currently OWN are bludging. OWN's reputation obviously inspires terror in the roving reds who seem to gravitate to their systems like a pedo to a pre-school. Hopefully they'll read your post and realize their mistake.
Goons up until recently didn't give a rats arse about OWNs incompetent leadership, but when a pissant alliance in the Dek coalition states they hate Goons and Test and have no interest in working together, well let's put it this way, it's probably just as well you've left OWN; I suspect it's not going to end well.
\o Burga.
Edit: fucked up quotes (Kugunoob here)
I'm going to start with what should've been a very old meme: You don't get goons.
Let me elucidate. Yes, there's a lot of chatter on goon comms. We're not BoB, where the FC was God, and god forbid the common fleet member spoke "out of turn". I can't even fathom just how fucking boring those kinds of fleets must be. Just because they're "more diciplined" on TS, doesn't automatically mean that you're always going to get kills, or that big strategic ops even necessarily end in a fight, etc etc etc. Eve is a chaotic game, and the "other side" doesn't always do exactly what you want them to. Who knew?
One of the main reasons I go on goon ops (apart from the fact I am a goon to start with, of course) is precisely because of the chaos and hilarity that is a goon op. We'll be a bit late, we'll bicker and banter on TS, play fartjokes or instruments, call eachother faggots for jumping through a red gate (we are, and we do), and just generally try to make an essentially boring game fun, all while travelling to the destination. This is a good thing, and not to be automatically confused with "disorganization". If you'd flown with us, you'd also know that things change when we're actually IN a fight, not just getting TO a fight.
And, ragging on newbies for flying rifters etc? Really? Are you seriously so srs bznz that you can't even go on ops if you're a complete newbie (and possibly help snag a kill by being a hero tackler), or is there a lower cost requiprement to be in fleet and not be called out as useless faggots? Personally, I'd rather they came along and got hooked on PVP instead of sitting on the fence going "aww I wanna play too, this game is boring".
Quick ninjaedit: NC ops weren't that different from goon ops. Slightly less faggotry on the way to/from a destination, certainly, but not by much. "Drink drink, smoke smoke."
Everyone plays this game to have fun.
Some people enjoy flying around, making jokes on TS, laughing a lot, doing their own thing, exploding while at it, and bitching at others about it.
Some people enjoy flying around in a disciplined fleet, being part of an organized group, and trying to be good at internet spaceships.
Both kinds of people think the others are doing it wrong, because they can't understand that anyone would enjoy that kind of crap.
That is a good FC."Drink, Drink, Smoke, Smoke."
-Lucian
I still don't understand the disdain the OWN leadership (and several OWN members, it would seem) has expressed concerning T1 frigates in fleets. Rifter, Merlin, Incursus, and Punisher pilots are absolute heroes. They provide for cheap scouting, hero tackles, can make rolling safes, and are really cute. Properly led, your tackle wing can save the fucking day and snatch some hilarious killmails from the jaws of warping off. Improperly led, they all die hilariously in a fire and the corp loses some completely inconsequential amount of ISK in giving them all more free frigates. Either way, the newbies have fun and don't unsub quite as much. It's really a win-win for everyone.
Oh, and don't even get me started on newbies in Griffins. It is absolutely golden when a newbie in an alpha clone and T1 frigate manages to get a jam off on some faggot veteran in a HAC. It doesn't happen often, but my god is it so worth it.
What's hilarious is they aren't simply refusing to say where the money went, they are insisting that the money never existed at all.
Which, rather than implying malice in stealing the funds, simply implies gross incompetence.
I'm not sure which is worse.
Yeah all true except for all of it.From: TeRedrum
Sent: 2010.10.18 19:42
To: OWN-CEO,
Time for some damage control clarifications.
Initial deal between TCF and BCA/TNT/OWN(further refered as DC).
DC alliances got rights on:
-their systems
-their stations
-their moons
They re actually the owners of their space.
Their duties:
-participating to NC stuff as much as they could
-participating to Deklein join ops and local security
They re asked military support only.
Basically TCF gave them the opportunity to grow and play their role, and thought DC guyz deserve it, and they did.
The idea was having our close friends as neighbours in our big happy house.
So what happened? When we decided to invite GSF to live in our former big home we told them that they ll share it with our friends.
GSF agreed on this but may have misunderstood TCF and DC relashionship, DC s not vassal to TCF nor they should be to GSF.
Actually i see DC people really doing their best and involved in military northern activities both GSF and NC side so i still wonder where the problem is.
I really regret how things went with BCA and don t want to see this happen again.
I hope it ll help to sort it out, thanks for your time.
There are solutions to this kind of culture clash that don't involve threats and non-participation in mutually beneficial operations.
OK.. as a former CEO in OWN (sigh) I'm going to sum it up like this:
The leadership in OWN alliance is extremely dilusional, greedy, unwilling to compromise, and emorages at any little suggestion to place forward in terms of making the alliance better.
The OWN leadership is so bad with isk (they didn't even react most of their tech moons) that its not about stealing isk, its about not figuring out that 2 + 2 = 4; so that 100bil isk is most likely just never been made. I do believe they have reserves of like 30+ bil they will use for making a personal titan for Red.
Ladel was right when he said that OWN once upon a time could field respectable fleet sizes (during IT war over 50+ regularly), but because OWN leadership mistreats their members so badly every respectable corp leaves. The most active pvp corps in OWN ALL leave after they realize they're just tools to OWN HC. OWN HC response to that circumstance: "They sucked anyway". Cough. And i'm not talking about the corps that have 1 guy in NC fleets and get 80 kills in an NC fight and then toot their horn how good their corp is.
Finally, OWN will never amount to anything because their membership is one big revolving door (DefiFOURnt mk 2.. cough terrible). Those Tech moons are never going toward anything but personal benefit.
BTW my favorite lol: every time deagolONE and TeRedrum try to validate their presence in DEK they link the killboard. Investigate that killboard. 99% of kills there are in 150+ man fleets with 1 or 2 own pilots. Padded KBs are solid yo!
Why do you think that the ev0ke/NC. crew have been all quiet about yesterday's fight in which we killed the XZH iHub? Take a look at the numbers in this link from Ev0ke's killboard:
http://killboard.ev0ke.de/?a=kill_related&kll_id=116454
Deliberately or not, the battle report is fucked, but if you check the "related kills" link on any of the individual kills you'll see it showing 72 kills for 52 losses (at the moment, of course). NC. lost four or five ships, Ewoks lost another 17 according to their boards, while the Ev0ke one has synched and has just about all of their kills. Our (Goons') killboard is notoriously fucking awful but it shows 61 kills, I think. So equal sides go in and the Ev0ke side probably loses slightly more according to their own side's killboards. And yes, they had better ships, but that just makes it worse for them because, well, rifters lol.
Of course, we cheated because we didn't warn them Vee was FCing.
My blog: http://endie.net Twitter: EndiePosts
If I forget thee, O Goonfleet dot com, let my right hand forget her typing.
Which is why I limited myself to say that I wouldn't deny. Who is better you are obviously better placed than me to discuss with him. I was just trying to clear off potential discussions that was not to the point I wanted to make; that I couldn't see how OWN was - though not being a pvp alliance - something way superior to the disorganized Goons. With what I'm seeing currently I'd much rather have OWN knocking at my door than Goons. The latter may be more laughs at/in local, but from the point of keeping space I'd prefer OWN. (Also because I bet they can be bribed into going elsewhere.) And with that I'll attempt to shut up for a while and get back to lurking.
I can easily change my statement from "I can't even fathom just how fucking boring those kinds of fleets must be" to "I can't even fathom just how fucking boring I would find those kinds of fleets", because I'm playing minecraft or reading webpages/forums/etc even with goons shitting up TS during travel, just to keep myself occupied. I hate boredom.
I'll agree that it makes fleets more fun. Not everyone's all that enthusiastic about "drink drink smoke smoke", but at least it's something to do/think about during fleet downtimes. Even more so, the cap raffles he held. I never won, but it was still a fun thing to do, for that I <3 Lucian.
To me, a good FC isn't just one who's effective on the field, although there are probably plenty who think that's the only thing an FC has to be good at. To me, a good FC is also one that either makes, or encourages the fleet members to make boring sessions like pos shooting, station camping/shooting, gatecamping or the like fun and interesting, so that you'll be interested in x-ing up the next day, and the next.
No, much of what you said made sense, Dirk. I was just picking on particulars.
My blog: http://endie.net Twitter: EndiePosts
If I forget thee, O Goonfleet dot com, let my right hand forget her typing.
Wait is OWN Directorate really taking the ELITE PVP stance in this argument?
TBH, I really don't view OWN leadership as "stealing" the funds as alliance leaders chose what to do with the resources in their space, and I don't even know if they have been utilizing those moons (if they didn't it certainly counts towards incompetence). Like I said, our corp wasn't concerned with moons and all members flying capitals. I have no doubts from the attitude I witnessed from Leadership that any ISK that would be made off of moons would not "Trickle Down" in any form, be it ship reimbursements or whatnot. We reimbursed our own members ships as long as they were a part of an NC op and didn't lose a particularly expensive ship in a stupid way. We mostly ignored OWN and were ignored in return as our most active members at any given time adjusted to 0.0 life and took part of NC OPs.
Hedge is completely right that no self respecting Corp would last in OWN for very long. Regardless of PvP records, OWN has been plagued with security issues, poor morale, low participation, shite communication, and either fiscal mismanagement or outright deceptive financial practices that can all be traced back to the upper echelons of OWN leadership. In the short time I was a member I had a hard time even determining who was "real" leadership was there was so much bickering. The only indication someone was leadership was you noted the name of the person shit-talking someone in local for doing something seemingly inconsequential, followed by the obligatory, "You obviously don't know who your talking to" when the person stuck up for them self. Of course the person doesn't know who they're talking to, douche-nugget. The OWN leadership is a fragmented mess that sounds like the jabber channel of a goon OP.
A lot of the problems with fragmented leadership in OWN seems like the source of the issue would be its extremely transient corporation membership, wouldn't it?
Haha, this guy thinks we use jabber for Eve.
My favourite part is the bit where he conveniently forgets that he acknowledged the fact that OWN were tenants and promised full OWN support when we first moved in.
Sorry to break this to you OWN but TCF love us goons far more than they ever loved you.
No we didn't lol, thats straight bullshit.
The shite communication is the goons, and the poor morale and security issues is when you lost your dual active rep astarte you brought to a homedef when we had logis....
No von, goons don't use jabber. And I find the best way to deal with leadership is to pretend they don't exist, then BAM, the dirt is gone. Or people could do it your/marts way which is to either emo rage from EVE for a coupla months or go back to carebearing in highsec.
I wasn't lead to this post by any form of OWN comms, got it from ma old corps public channel, and I gotta say that test aid flotilla, although bullshit, was fucking funny. In my personal experience (someone who has never dealt with OWN leadership), OWNs fine, just definitely not a 1337 pvp alliance, which is why I'm sure many corps/me have left/are leaving.
The thing that gets me is the GOOD relationship we've had with other local residence since we've arrived. TNT have become great friends and valuable contributors, WI. have become best buds, FA have proven to be awesome towards us and valued friends as well. You'd think from the noise that we've come in, trashed the living room, slept with everybody's slutty sisters, and ruined what was a great thing. Instead we've worked closely with regional folk, built up a great core of people who enjoy playing together, and generally helped foster a sense of inclusion and direction which benefits everybody. It's been a lot of fun and things are going great!
But mister Vile Rat we turned on people who have lived there for YEARS AND YEARS. Surely the problem is us.
I don't see passing down any kind of power to newer corps for it to be fragmented amongst, my primary criticism is in how they use it. It that light it's not surprising to me that other corps have come and gone the way we did. I hadn't heard about this before he mentioned it.
I know TESTies use jabber, we were never given any comms info for goon business that I recall.
When OWN found out you guys were moving in shit became all paranoid. OWN is terrible at passing down info. Everyone's all, "The GOONS are moving in,.. What's gonna happen? Do we keep our space? Are they gonna eat our babies?" (Your alliances name precedes itself). There was defiantly some prejudice rollin' around about the famous Goonswarm/TEST. I told our corp members they'll likely ignore OWN being around until OWN proves itself useless and/or disruptive. Didn't take most of us that long to determine to pack up our shit...
Meanwhile, as Vonkolroth was on his way to OWXT...
From: Akira Tano
Sent: 2010.08.04 02:48
To: VonKolroth,
VonKolroth > Now that I have all my ducks in a row and having been in OWN for a short time, I can whole heartedly say despite a small handfull of members and FC
gordon rivas > ?
Receg > you appear to have fallen in a hole there good sir
VonKolroth > 's, that OWN is by far the worst alliance I have ever been a part of with any of my toons. Good day sirs.
gordon rivas > lol, bye fag
Deathross > what?
Deathross > ROFL
Receg > [02:24:20] VonKolroth > 's, that OWN is by far the worst alliance I have ever been a part of with any of my toons. Good day sirs.
Receg > so you join dreddit
gordon rivas > just leave queitly and dont cause a scene
Deathross > what constitutes a good alliance
gordon rivas > carebear prolly lol
Deathross > lol
gordon rivas > i just so happen to like living in this place
Deathross > its a good alliance ive been in worse trust me
Deathross > any alliance that puts up with my douchebaggetry is ok in my book :P
DerloxKon > a good alliance... hmm corps helping corps free high sec- 0.0 runs for members people placing orders to be jumped down, i dont know incentive programs hows that for suggestions
gordon rivas > all i herd was ''im on the rag, leave me alone''
Deathross > lol
gordon rivas > u will feel better in a week or so
DerloxKon > gordon rivas who was that directed to ?
gordon rivas > who else
gordon rivas > im not talking to death
DerloxKon > i dont know thats why i asked
Sorsha Black > that guy logged a while ago
gordon rivas > if u dont like the alliance, there is no reason to wine and bitch
gordon rivas > just leave
DerloxKon > now who is this directed to?
gordon rivas > o, i didnt realize vonk logged
Sorsha Black > lol
gordon rivas > danmet
gordon rivas > i got derlox and vonks names mixxed up
Confirming we are the reapers of eve online.
<mass effect reference>
Uh DC members have access to our Jabber you guys just don't get information passed down even though we staple it to your foreheads.
The dual active rep Astarte I didn't reimburse with corp funds after following an FC's command to fly into an evoke sniper hac gang. It's not like I was fleet warped, and I didn't piss and moan about it. I don't recall it being a particular bad idea to fly a resistance based tank around armor logi's either.The shite communication is the goons, and the poor morale and security issues is when you lost your dual active rep astarte you brought to a homedef when we had logis....
Just maybe Martial and few other members of the corp somewhat responsible for others in the corp didn't have the luxury to ignore OWN leadership so you could live in that cushy ratting space, you think of that?No von, goons don't use jabber. And I find the best way to deal with leadership is to pretend they don't exist, then BAM, the dirt is gone. Or people could do it your/marts way which is to either emo rage from EVE for a coupla months or go back to carebearing in highsec.
I didn't accuse you of shit, dude, other then the fact I don't recall you ever dealing with any kind of 0.0 leadership. Here's a little something from another old corp of yours channel...I wasn't lead to this post by any form of OWN comms, got it from ma old corps public channel, and I gotta say that test aid flotilla, although bullshit, was fucking funny. In my personal experience (someone who has never dealt with OWN leadership), OWNs fine, just definitely not a 1337 pvp alliance, which is why I'm sure many corps/me have left/are leaving.
[12:01:30] EVE System > Channel MOTD: <color=0xffffa500><url=http://www.kugutsumen.com/showthread.php?6915-UN-Authorizes-Aid-Flotilla-To-OWN-Territory><u><b>OWN Alliance Lulz</b></u></url></color>
[12:01:44] meatbunkt > hey if you quit eve can i have your stuff lol
[12:02:01] VonKolroth > Hey meat, why'd you block burga from OMG?
[12:02:17] rick taxi > cuz he's a dickhead
[12:02:30] VonKolroth > If your talking to rick... rick, i can put your stuff to much better use.
[12:02:44] VonKolroth > lol
[12:03:00] meatbunkt > cause he was being an ass and wouldnt shut up about how his frig could perma jam a dread
[12:03:04] VonKolroth > Burga and Ladel are posting in the OWN comedy channel now.
[12:03:16] meatbunkt > so i blocked him
[12:03:18] rick taxi > what's that?
[12:03:44] VonKolroth > the thread of OWN digging it's grave at the top of the channel.
[12:04:01] rick taxi > so he can perma jam a dread and is happy about that. it's no different than you being on drunk braggin abou how you can perma clap a hooker
[12:04:23] VonKolroth > I may have to pull out once or twice...
[12:04:33] VonKolroth > I don't want a hooker baby.
[12:04:34] rick taxi > that was @ meat
[12:04:59] VonKolroth > oh, how many times do you have to pull out meat?
[12:05:31] rick taxi > whoever did the art work on that link. it's one of our ships. the test donation ship is crewed by my people lmao
[12:05:46] VonKolroth > lol
[12:06:40] VonKolroth > You should read that thread, it's fucking hilarious, or at least it is if you were in Decimus when Decimus was OWN.
[12:06:56] meatbunkt > he wasnt
[12:07:07] VonKolroth > Fekkin' burga started piping up with Ladel in the thread, they are most likely in the process of being eaten.
[12:07:13] rick taxi > i'm reading it and laughing even tho i wasn't with you guys when you were own
[12:07:33] rick taxi > so we should go gank own?
[12:07:37] VonKolroth > I don't think either of them know how goon forums work.
[12:07:44] rick taxi > where do they hang out?
[12:07:46] VonKolroth > OWN is ganking themselves.
[12:08:00] meatbunkt > and you wonder why i banned burger from this chat
[12:08:00] VonKolroth > <color=0xffffa500><url=showinfo:5//30002896><u><b>cu9</b></u></url></color>
[12:08:29] VonKolroth > I don't wonder, I want to post in the forum why you booted him if he gets snippy. :-)
[12:09:01] rick taxi > ok so my allaince is in venal. you guys want to put something together?
[12:09:05] VonKolroth > Your answer was perfect by the way.
[12:09:34] VonKolroth > I'm not flying to own space, I'm not even in test at the moment.
[12:10:00] VonKolroth > I'm just chatting with testies and goons, pushing things along a little.
[12:10:34] rick taxi > BL is in venal atm you could talk to them and we could have a coalition of forces? it's an idea
[12:11:03] meatbunkt > von did here about me spaming own alliance chat before mart pulled dec-x out
[12:11:50] VonKolroth > OWN is pissing on the two alliances that <i>RUN</i> their region no coalition is needed.
[12:12:28] VonKolroth > OWN has like 5 systems. all goons have to say is move out, and they <i>have</i> to move out.
[12:13:13] rick taxi > how aboutg we not move them out but give them a really stiff nudge?
[12:13:36] rick taxi > off a cliff sounds like a good start
[12:14:07] rick taxi > ok guys i gotta start packin for the wedding and all. i'll not be on much next 2 weeks
[12:14:17] Clara Adelaide > smart bombing cu9 station in some carriers is a great idea
[12:14:26] rick taxi > cap shield set to lvl 5 30 days =)
[12:24:12] Clara Adelaide > own alliance is the reason i started carebearing and it made a lot of good members in dec-x stop playing
[12:26:11] Clara Adelaide > i never thought id like doing missions or mining as much
[12:27:25] Clara Adelaide > im looking foward to the new salvage ship and i might star doing some planet shit too
[12:28:35] VonKolroth > That's why I'm making it one of my major goals that they lose that space. Even if I don't have time to shoot at them, I never liked burga anyway.
[12:29:26] VonKolroth > He's always been a punk who didn't know what the fuck he was talking about.
[12:29:34] Clara Adelaide > if he just stfu he be ok but nooo
[12:30:04] VonKolroth > He wouldn't even have to stfu if he knew what he was talking about.
[12:30:22] Clara Adelaide > thats true too
[12:30:47] VonKolroth > Every conversation I ever finished with him I finished with, "Whatever, dude.".
[12:31:26] VonKolroth > Now he pops up on the forum to defend, of all people, OWN alliance. Fuck that guy.
[12:31:42] Clara Adelaide > yup
[12:32:36] VonKolroth > It's not like Decimus Corp was the only corps copius amount of time & ISK OWN wasted.
[12:34:20] Clara Adelaide > when i was in own alliance i was so broke it was just stupid
[12:34:29] Clara Adelaide > no why
[12:34:34] Clara Adelaide > know
[12:35:13] Clara Adelaide > cause i went on fleets every fing day i logged on
[12:37:07] Clara Adelaide > how many fleets to burger go on
[12:39:17] Clara Adelaide > he bitched at mart cause he couldnt get more then 10 kills in a month durning the peak take over system months
I'd like to counter this with "surely Defi4nt was worse". Well, I hope, anyway, because christ jesus that was a bad bad alliance to be in even 1.5 years ago, I've no idea how awful it was at the end before they got kicked out by TCF.
Not only have you not dealt with OWN leadership, you apparently haven't dealt with Goons either because you don't have a clue what you are talking about.
Every GoonSwarm diplomat has a story to tell of passing on op info to Deagol1 or TeRedrum and being told flat out that they aren't coming, or getting some incredibly ignorant and arrogant runaround in response. Jabber is in almost constant use by Goons and allies like TEST, TNT, WI. and others are having no problems with finding out about our ops and activities and are showing up with strong numbers. The comms problem isn't on our end; OWN leadership has made a decision to keep its membership in the dark and when it does decide to pass things along, their membership gets horribly distorted versions of whatever needs to be relayed. It's like Comical Ali was appointed the leader of an alliance.
I can confirm that DekCo Jabber users are bombarded with operation notices like popups on a porn site.
I was almost tempted to resub to EVE after reading this thread.
So I flew in OWN for about a couple of months before Starcraft II came out and I stopped playing EVE, and yeah... the Alliance CEO is a dick. I don't think anyone could dispute that.
As a newbie I didn't have any idea about the financial situation and frankly I would never of thought about asking about it because the first mention of anything relating to mining or industry in EVE makes my eyes glaze over.
The membership of the alliance was pretty much a revolving door. There was a constant influx of newbies like me replacing disillusioned members. But hey, it was my first time in a 0.0 Alliance and I was going to get what I could out of it. Even if the whole alliance was corrupt as hell and full of spies, well that's just EVE Online, and I wasn't intending to put down deep roots.
So I did some lucrative ratting, joined some ops and had some fun. Mostly I flew in NC ops and OWN HD fleets. Tau Ceti seemed to be absent landlords whom we never heard from. Occasionally a Goon fleet would pop up on Fleet Finder, but Goons used their own comms and didn't invite anyone else to join, so we just stuck to joining NC ops because we could join the MM comms and actually hear what the FC said.
The Tau Ceti suddenly disappeared and we heard Goons would be running Deklein. And we laughed over that, thinking oh boy we are so screwed. Because, you know, Goons - they fuck with people.
Anyway Starcraft II came out, and it was way more fun than EVE so I transferred my major assets to Jita incase I ever returned and then canceled my sub.
(1:15:15 PM) Messoroz: no
(1:15:23 PM) Messoroz: tehredrum is literally a stupid fuck
(1:15:26 PM) Messoroz: he wanted our kb link
(1:15:31 PM) leetcheese: v0v
(1:15:44 PM) Messoroz: and boosted about own kills by linking to a spreadsheet that shows all the nc alliance kills/per member/per month
(1:15:51 PM) Messoroz: somehow own averages 20 kills per member per month
(1:16:32 PM) leetcheese: if that's a metric
(1:16:45 PM) leetcheese: i average ~108 kills per month
(1:16:53 PM) leetcheese: so i am 5.4 own pilots
If everyone can put away the tape measurers and pull their pants back up for a second perhaps people will listen to what is said. Ladel's comment about FCing in goon is the same as the goon comments about IT FCing. People have different play styles, and different agendas when playing this game. Some people enjoy witty banter on comms, others prefer it kept clear for other reasons. That doesn't make one better, or worse, it makes it different and applicable to their playing style. I'm not 15, I don't find fart jokes and people burping into the comms funny or entertaining. That is just my expectations.
The comments concerning bringing "wrong" ships to fleets, if your Goons or TEST you have the raw numbers to allow for people to bring less effective ships to your fleets. Your pool may get you 100 people in gang, which doesn't matter if 10 of them are not in appropiate ships. If your OWN, and you draw on perhaps 30 for a gang, and 10 show up in shield ships when you have armor logis, then it does become an issue. The ship requirements are there so that people can complement each other, if you have half your fleet in gunnery ships and half in missle ships you know your DPS is going to be delayed. If you have people bring rail ships that primarly do kinetic and thermal damage, and you know you will be facing AHAC's which tank that very well you would ask people to bring something that does explosive damage. That is not being elitest, it's knowing how to play the game.
The "lol rifters" is a valid tactic by goons, it allows people who aren't particularly skilled in the game *yet* to get into fleets, see how they are run, and to get over the stigma of dying. Once they aren't afraid of a lossmail, then they are more accepting of PVP and getting into fights. That works for goons, it might not work for smaller groups. I'm not really sure why people pick on rifters anyway since I know many a good rifter pilot that can take down a poor AHAC pilot solo.
All that said, I am a CEO in a corporation that is leaving OWN, and probably should have left OWN months ago. OWN *was* a pretty good PVP group when it was started, having maybe 7ish corporations. The alliance bosses thought it was more important to have 1500 members than standards, and OWN ballooned up into it's current state - a come as your are alliance. The alliance was given space, didn't have to fight for it, and was headed by primarly industrialists who brought a Mostly Harmless attitude to the alliance. Slowly the PVP aspect lost a "P" and gained a "E" to make it a PVE alliance. The people who liked to PVP got bored of the constant CTA's with little to no action, and attendance started to fall and members stopped logging in.
Let me also make a point clear, there is no alliance *leadership*, in fact outside of CEO's to their corporations there is very little leadership in the alliance. The alliance bosses attempt to rule through intimidation, threatening to kick corps who don't agree with obviously stupid policies. There is no discussion, there is being talked to and temper tantrums when you question them. There is no general "plan" for the alliance - other than to exist - or at least none that was ever conveyed. Requests for simple things like AAR forums to rehash engagements to teach lessons where ignored. When MAX2 was kicking off we asked for a alliance ship replacement program (since the message was this was going to be a long fight) and were told you had 3 weeks notice for this you should have stockpiled. You can't stockpile for a 6 month fight in three months, and field 130m logisitic ships and whatnot.
All told, OWN is small, will always be small, but their bosses want to act big, and be treated big.
Don't think that every corp/alliance is like OWN.
I was with ED when they lost Etherium Reach, and it was a downhill fight the whole way. Nothing but shooting dickstar after dickstar for months, Red alliance would just put them back up when during their peak time zone. there was no ISK for reimbursement and ratting for drone pellets was a logistical nightmare in systems with hostiles flying through every thirty minutes. You had to literally haul your ISK to a station and find someone to refine it.
At the same time I had some of the best times in EvE that I ever have. Because the Leadership and the Membership gave a shit about their space and having fun. I listened to really good FC's from allied alliances get emotional over comms when told by coalition leaders to stop supporting us. EvE is a fun game when you fly with the right people. If you really want to know why I feel so strongly about OWN Leadership, it's because they convinced some people I really give a shit about that EvE cannot be a fun game anymore. No ones sense of self importance is that fucking important.
Just like real life, you'll only hear negative shit about most big alliances, because that's what most people find interesting. What will OWN famous for? Most likely this bullshit.
When my 3 mo. son is old enough to not require attention at any given moment, I hope to go right back to TEST and have fun. Carebearing in Empire is compatible with my lifestyle right now. By the time he's older and I have time for 0.0, I'll have a big pile of ISK to burn.
This image summarizes it pretty well.
See it works on multiple levels. First is the obvious. The guy with the little slap at the start is DHD, the guy in the white shirt raging is the OWN leadership, and the guy who gets the big smack is Mittens. Of course, it could also be that the guy with the little slap is DHD, the guy with the white shirt raging is OWN, and the guy who gets the big slap is OWN's membership. It pretty much works on multiple levels.
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