Opti comes out of the closet, Goonswarm Declares Victory

**Mfume** · 2012-04-03

sniper tornadoes are fucking awful and you have to be pretty downs to fly them as a comp

**Yang Wenli** · 2012-04-03

They are maelstroms that move 1.5x as fast and align in much less time. Sure they don't tank well, but with coordinated alpha nothing really does.

What is not to like?

I assume they use them when they are too scared to use T3 ships or something, which is a great symbol for how this war will go as a whole, but the idea seems rational enough.

Edit - I know :muninns: and everything, but do you seriously think they are a better ship against large gangs? 8 large artys hit much harder, and the overall agility is very close.

**Elo** · 2012-04-03

let me tell you about killing tackle with a tornado

**Mfume** · 2012-04-03

Originally Posted by Yang Wenli

They are maelstroms that move 1.5x as fast and align in much less time. Sure they don't tank well, but with coordinated alpha nothing really does.

What is not to like?

the tracking. the tank. the fact that half of the people in any tornado gang are too fucking stupid to align and feel the need to demonstrate how "skillful" they are at "kiting" and either wind up at 140km firing EMP like a retard or dead the instant they get anywhere near optimal of anything.

and the current meta is either abaddons (good luck winning a volley contest with those!), maelstroms (gl hf having half your gang volleyed A-Z) or tengus (lol, you aren't winning that fight, period.)

**Slycat** · 2012-04-03

Tornado's work very well as a mid-largish fleet comp. Yes, hitting frigs is tricky, but the frigs actually have to get to you first and dumb frig pilots get popped. Note my experience is from large gang (40-50) skirmishes, not full on massive fleet combat.

Best pro: Dumb (not aligning) pilots die first. What's not to like!
Biggest con: People in shiny T3 gangs wont engage you. If you engage a tornado fleet you _are_ going to loose shit, even if you win, its gonna cost you.

**Elo** · 2012-04-03

I mean im sure black legion could beat people with tornados but thats cause we own right guys

**Mfume** · 2012-04-03

Originally Posted by Slycat

Biggest con: People in shiny T3 gangs wont engage you. If you engage a tornado fleet you _are_ going to loose shit, even if you win, its gonna cost you.

yeah, maybe a dictor lmbo

edit: im sure if you're fighting people who are bad at eve, you can rack up an incredibly lopsided kill count, but you could do the same with tengus or pretty much any comp. arties have horribad tracking and you're either committing your huginns/rapiers closer than the tornadoes (where they are still subject to all the DPS your tornadoes are range-tanking, oops!) or you dont have the range (with high dmg ammo) and/or tracking (with tremor) to reliably apply any sort of reasonable volley. the worst part of it is, you can totally commit those minmatar recons and your tracking still sucks.

ofc, you can throw the numbers argument in, but everything works if you pack enough dudes into fleet.

**Slycat** · 2012-04-03

Originally Posted by Mfume

yeah, maybe a dictor lmbo
edit: im sure if you're fighting people who are bad at eve,

Darkside are bad at eve?

http://kb.g00dfellas.com/?a=kill_related&kll_id=3840

Note most of the 'nado losses happend after the fight with the DS t3 gang cause we turned dumb and gave gypsies bombing practice

We have several fights like this. Even one where we killed a dozen frigs with no losses (ok it was a RA pet pots and pans frig gang.. but still..)

**Ron Mexxico** · 2012-04-03

Originally Posted by Slycat

Darkside are bad at eve?

http://kb.g00dfellas.com/?a=kill_related&kll_id=3840

Note most of the 'nado losses happend after the fight with the DS t3 gang cause we turned dumb and gave gypsies bombing practice

We have several fights like this. Even one where we killed a dozen frigs with no losses (ok it was a RA pet pots and pans frig gang.. but still..)

rofl we don't even lose that many muninns to nados. yes they are bad @ that comp obv

Originally Posted by Prodnovick

The only thing they are doing is making the structure grind less annoying.

Originally Posted by Prodnovick

We reinforce a pos in drakes and they show up in tornados, kill our fc and keep jumping and alphaing a couple ships. We catch a couple of theirs that are too slow to align untill they get bombed to fuck and they run away.

Now compare this to we shot a pos in drakes and went home and guess wich one we like better.

also; lol u ref structures in drakes is basically the beginning and end of this story

**Dental Floss** · 2012-04-03

Why would you guys tell them tornadoes are bad when they all like to fly them, wtf

**Dental Floss** · 2012-04-03

Guys, don't listen to Black Legion, they're a bunch of fucking scrubs. Look at them these days flying nothing but drakes, it's cause they don't have the skills to fly anything but caldari BCs and muninns. that's why the transition to nulli secunda was so easy for them -- they all have caldari skills already from carebearing and could fly nagas.

Tornadoes are fucking awesome. What you should try is putting sebos in the mids so you can burn tackle quicker. You lose some tank, sure, but it doesn't matter since you're range tanking and you'll die if you get caught anyway.

**Prodnovick** · 2012-04-03

Originally Posted by Ron Mexxico

also; lol u ref structures in drakes is basically the beginning and end of this story

I agree, I hate drakes but they work pretty well and give the less experienced fc's something to work with.

**Cryo** · 2012-04-03

While I love the Muninn I have down in NPC delve to bits it's not that great

**Dental Floss** · 2012-04-03

Originally Posted by Cryo

While I love the Muninn I have down in NPC delve to bits it's not that great

i agree, i'd like to see them try muninns vs tornadoes, they'd get fucking 0wnzoned, l0l

**Yang Wenli** · 2012-04-03

I used to root for BL in every battle-report I read, but you guys have become egomaniacs with no sense of humor.

Let us know when you can beat a CFC fleet that actually sets out to fight you rather than clearing an objective. Killing the light support for a drake fleet doesn't impress anyone.

**n0th** · 2012-04-03

Originally Posted by Slycat

Darkside are bad at eve?

http://kb.g00dfellas.com/?a=kill_related&kll_id=3840

M8, we're pretty terrible
also Modano does have his moments like losing 4 bil Machs/lolpvp Vargurs to random scrubgangs
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=12933263
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=12932177

In that related you linked he jumped into Tornados @ optimals in AB Lokis because of (i assume) boredom.
The following will probably come off as damage control, but anyway: covering 80j+ without any engagement does make people sleepy/distracted browsing forums. Which resulted in retards being blapped despite being virtually immune to large Arties (let me tell you about tanking 80 RA Arty Abaddons fine)

**Grim** · 2012-04-03

Tornados work against people too dumb to fight back. We bring kiting nados to test space all the time, and rarely lose them because they dont know what to do when their targets are more than 10k away. If they actually tried something besides solo bombers against them they would have much more success.

**tgr** · 2012-04-03

Nerf tornados.

**Doddy** · 2012-04-03

Originally Posted by Mfume

the tracking. the tank. the fact that half of the people in any tornado gang are too fucking stupid to align and feel the need to demonstrate how "skillful" they are at "kiting" and either wind up at 140km firing EMP like a retard or dead the instant they get anywhere near optimal of anything.

and the current meta is either abaddons (good luck winning a volley contest with those!), maelstroms (gl hf having half your gang volleyed A-Z) or tengus (lol, you aren't winning that fight, period.)

Drakes do go up like its bonfire night though, which is very satisfying.

**Malcanis** · 2012-04-03

Originally Posted by tgr

Nerf tornados.

Don't. Even. Joke.

(Until Jita has burned)

**n0th** · 2012-04-03

Originally Posted by Mfume

and the current meta is either abaddons (good luck winning a volley contest with those!), maelstroms (gl hf having half your gang volleyed A-Z) or tengus (lol, you aren't winning that fight, period.)

The reason why i am buttmad about Tornados is that they obviously wont fight any of those.

All this "gang" can do is
1.warpin @ 100
2. blap something juicy
3. smugpoast in local from tactical

and even if you manage to get some bads who werent aligned etc. - who cares, they're in fucking BCs.

**poaw** · 2012-04-03

Originally Posted by Yang Wenli

I used to root for BL in every battle-report I read

Just for the record, that was before they moved to Venal, right?

Originally Posted by n0th

The reason why i am buttmad about Tornados is that they obviously wont fight any of those.

All this "gang" can do is
1.warpin @ 100
2. blap something juicy
3. smugpoast in local from tactical

and even if you manage to get some bads who werent aligned etc. - who cares, they're in fucking BCs.

The Large turret drops from ti3 BCs actually makes solo pvp somewhat sustainable for me as long as I stick to fighting those and faction frigs. Kinda makes me wish more the value of a fitted ship as in the modules instead of the hull.

**aryndel vyst** · 2012-04-03

Tornados don't suck. It's usually the people that try to fly them that do.

**Slycat** · 2012-04-03

Originally Posted by n0th

M8, we're pretty terrible
also Modano does have his moments like losing 4 bil Machs/lolpvp Vargurs to random scrubgangs
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=12933263
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=12932177

In that related you linked he jumped into Tornados @ optimals in AB Lokis because of (i assume) boredom.
The following will probably come off as damage control, but anyway: covering 80j+ without any engagement does make people sleepy/distracted browsing forums. Which resulted in retards being blapped despite being virtually immune to large Arties (let me tell you about tanking 80 RA Arty Abaddons fine)

So what I'm hearing next time we run into a DS. t3 gang you'll jump into us nps (being all immune to large arties and all) ?

Nados can be very effective so long as you don't actually have to sit on the field for any reason or you need actual dps as opposed to volley. Its very fun flying with a 40 man blap machine for roams tho. It's gotten the point where we have to check people arnt fitting 3 sebos to actually get on the mails.

Personally I think alpha gameplay is broken and boring as hell. Hoping the target breaking mod they are talking about forces more advanced fleet tactics than 3..2..1..BLAP. (And no having 2-3 gun groups is not super advanced game play).

**Max** · 2012-04-03

Originally Posted by n0th

The reason why i am buttmad about Tornados is that they obviously wont fight any of those.

All this "gang" can do is
1.warpin @ 100
2. blap something juicy
3. smugpoast in local from tactical

and even if you manage to get some bads who werent aligned etc. - who cares, they're in fucking BCs.

AHACs.

The large guns do shitall to you, and with good probing, a ping point, and a decent warpin tornados melt FAST.

**Dental Floss** · 2012-04-03

Originally Posted by Yang Wenli

I used to root for BL in every battle-report I read, but you guys have become egomaniacs with no sense of humor.

Let us know when you can beat a CFC fleet that actually sets out to fight you rather than clearing an objective. Killing the light support for a drake fleet doesn't impress anyone.

We've actually done exactly that several times. Check Zarks's loss history and take note of all the vultures he's lost.

Also, we're actually not egomaniacs besides Elo, we're just really bad at posting except for me, of course, who is the best poster in Black Legion.

**nightlord** · 2012-04-03

Originally Posted by Max

AHACs.

The large guns do shitall to you, and with good probing, a ping point, and a decent warpin tornados melt FAST.

also drugs take drugs its funny when you get a bubble on nados and everyone free fires and they get one shoted by pulse zealots

**Opti** · 2012-04-03

Originally Posted by Dental Floss

i agree, i'd like to see them try muninns vs tornadoes, they'd get fucking 0wnzoned, l0l

munnins cant hit past 150k therefore no tornados would die

nice jokes

muninnmuninnmuninnmuninnmuninnmuninnmuninnmuninnmu ninnmuninnmuninnmuninn

**tgr** · 2012-04-03

Originally Posted by Slycat

Personally I think alpha gameplay is broken and boring as hell. Hoping the target breaking mod they are talking about forces more advanced fleet tactics than 3..2..1..BLAP. (And no having 2-3 gun groups is not super advanced game play).

That's because logistics make it more or less mandatory. If you can't take out a ship before reps land, you're not breaking him.

**Letters** · 2012-04-03

What keeps a gang from just warping off when they see a Nado fleet? Pretty much nothing, they are pretty horrible at forcing fights, and gets you blueballed easily.

**Slycat** · 2012-04-03

Originally Posted by tgr

That's because logistics make it more or less mandatory. If you can't take out a ship before reps land, you're not breaking him.

Totally agree, alpha can't be addressed in isolation.
AFIK the new proposed target breaker mod will be more effective the more people are targeting you. It stands to reason that this mechanism could be used to reduce stacking of logis also.

Big eve fights are a LOT of fun but the waiting/pew ration is grim. Getting alphaed 10 sec after landing on grid makes that ratio worse. Here's hoping the target breaker mod is a step in the right direction to mix things up and force micro tactical objectives beyond 'alpha primary'

**tgr** · 2012-04-03

You should take a look at f.ex http://www.kugutsumen.com/showthread...l=1#post386446

Things like that, and making the SOV system have more numerous targets, would mean you up the number of targets you could hit at any given time, which would hopefully make both the strategic and tactical part of warfare more exciting. And with Unifex' statement that they are wholly focused on spaceships now, I'm cautiously optimistic they'll get to this point eventually.

**Gyncognito** · 2012-04-03

First station in Tenal flipped? Not that anyone cares.

**Vile rat** · 2012-04-03

Originally Posted by Gyncognito

First station in Tenal flipped? Not that anyone cares.

They'll all flip over the next 3 days. Raiden. said a while ago they had no real intention of defending aside from fun fights where they could get it, this is all expected.

**thatsthejoke** · 2012-04-03

Originally Posted by Atticus

waiting for Leafs to win the Stanley Cup

Are the Leafs still around?

**Player of no importance** · 2012-04-03

Originally Posted by thatsthejoke

Are the Leafs still around?

Hockey is still around?

**Ricky** · 2012-04-03

http://kb.raidenalliance.net/?a=kill...l&kll_id=67597

the kill is nothing special. he was sitting decloaked at a safe. the funny part is hes Clone was set to PF-QHK so now hes getting moster trolled by all the ppl killing him. fun times. poor guy

**Player of no importance** · 2012-04-03

Originally Posted by Ricky

http://kb.raidenalliance.net/?a=kill...l&kll_id=67597

the kill is nothing special. he was sitting decloaked at a safe. the funny part is hes Clone was set to PF-QHK so now hes getting moster trolled by all the ppl killing him. fun times. poor guy

Oh man. What the hell was he doing? Ratting?

**Ricky** · 2012-04-03

Originally Posted by Player of no importance

Oh man. What the hell was he doing? Ratting?

for sure a ratting boat, the fit and the clone

Full low grade nomad set. a true Nano super

**Guillaume LeConquerant** · 2012-04-03

That dude is always logged in, always cloaked at his safe, and occasionally warped to a gate.

You can't see his loss history on eve kill, but I'm pretty sure that's the 3rd Nyx he loses.

**Opti** · 2012-04-03

Originally Posted by Vile rat

They'll all flip over the next 3 days. Raiden. said a while ago they had no real intention of defending aside from fun fights where they could get it, this is all expected.

its better to not try at all rather than trying and failing

**KAVASION** · 2012-04-03

Originally Posted by Elo

let me tell you about killing tackle with a tornado

Killing tackle in tornados is impossible if they get close to the gang, that is why you should always have at least five anti-support ships (for example, 2xhuggins + 3xzealots or vagas) which will be moving with the bulk of the fleet killing any tackle that comes close. With loki skirmish links you could reach some insane speed in the tornado fleets so it is possible to kite the enemy fleet or at the worse case play hit and run games by warping in and out of the grid before getting tackled. I am sure you guys can master the tier 3 fleets easily considering your skills/experience.

I think it is one of the very few fleet doctrines that you can actually engage far superior numbers and be able to come on top.

**Scaeva** · 2012-04-03

Originally Posted by Guillaume LeConquerant

That dude is always logged in, always cloaked at his safe, and occasionally warped to a gate.

You can't see his loss history on eve kill, but I'm pretty sure that's the 3rd Nyx he loses.

http://www.eve-co2.org/?a=pilot_deta...sses&scl_id=28

**Agathor** · 2012-04-03

Originally Posted by Scaeva

http://www.eve-co2.org/?a=pilot_deta...sses&scl_id=28

I believe that the kids too day would say: That guy is a Black American Turbo .

**Mfume** · 2012-04-03

Originally Posted by Yang Wenli

Let us know when you can beat a CFC fleet that actually sets out to fight you rather than clearing an objective. Killing the light support for a drake fleet doesn't impress anyone.

http://black-legion.ca/killboard/?a=...d&kll_id=19946
http://black-legion.ca/killboard/?a=...d&kll_id=19123 -- i kinda assume LAWN wanted to fight, they were sitting on our in-gate for a few mins.
http://black-legion.ca/killboard/?a=...d&kll_id=13874 -- note the timeline, 12 tornadoes in 2 mins.

**Elo** · 2012-04-03

Originally Posted by KAVASION

Killing tackle in tornados is impossible if they get close to the gang, that is why you should always have at least five anti-support ships (for example, 2xhuggins + 3xzealots or vagas) which will be moving with the bulk of the fleet killing any tackle that comes close. With loki skirmish links you could reach some insane speed in the tornado fleets so it is possible to kite the enemy fleet or at the worse case play hit and run games by warping in and out of the grid before getting tackled. I am sure you guys can master the tier 3 fleets easily considering your skills/experience.

I think it is one of the very few fleet doctrines that you can actually engage far superior numbers and be able to come on top.

hey can you come fc for me you seem to be better at it than me

**Elo** · 2012-04-03

Originally Posted by Yang Wenli

I used to root for BL in every battle-report I read, but you guys have become egomaniacs with no sense of humor.

Let us know when you can beat a CFC fleet that actually sets out to fight you rather than clearing an objective. Killing the light support for a drake fleet doesn't impress anyone.

is there a difference between these fleets? you seem to just bring a shitload of drakes and maels so mater what is going on lmao