The Hundred Days' War (~New Northern Thread~)

[nerfPLsoicanwin [banned]]

Why don't we call it 'ScORpIONneuting alphafleet' instead so we avoid confusion then. This way you guys can feel like you invented something!

[nerfPLsoicanwin [banned]]

SNIPED a headshot on RAZZORS post. im elite.

[DaiTengu]

Still no response to my petition, but I'm still not holding my breath. If I don't get MY AEON back (I miss my aeon ) I may have enough isk for a new titan! I mean, no one has ever lost 3 supers in the span of a year, right guys? right?!

[HUN73R]

IT first made Alpha Maels their doctrine iirc, but they chose to supplement it with Shield Apocalypses instead of Scorpions so the Clusterfuck can probably claim they invented "Alphafleet"

Tbh, Shamis was yelling at us to start testing some alphafleets like year and a half ago. The concept was there and the math was done by many people a lot before anyone actually started flying them. For PL - we didn't actually need them against Atlas and -A- as you could kill them flying pretty much anything, we started flying the shieldcats against the NC somewhere in the fall of 2010, but they weren't as effective as the abaddons(yeah, they suck when you are fighting 3v1). I actually still have my maelstrom fitted, it's 9 months old and undocked only twice, hit meup with offers.

My point is noone actually "invented" alphafleet as most entities realised it's a valid concept long time ago, it just can't work for everyone. Goons proly perfected it a bit tho.

[Razzor]

try harder

[Grath]

Don't want one. If you gave me one, I'd give it to someone else. I'm not going to sit logged off in some POS waiting like a fat chick on prom night for a jabber announcement so I can login, blob some pubbie with 100 other supers (when I know I'm not going to lose, of course) and then smugpost on kugu.

You sir are a credit to your alliance.

You don't get one because you want one, you get one so as to hopefully have enough in your alliance to facilitate a super cap deterrent, similar in concept to a nuclear arsenal.

[Lorren Canada]

So we have concluded that goons copied IT's fleet doctrine, but took it a step futher?



yeah, dont forget those drakes

Well, isn't there a difference between a Hellcat fleet and a bunch of abaddons thrown together by say, MM?

[Grath]

Still no response to my petition, but I'm still not holding my breath. If I don't get MY AEON back (I miss my aeon ) I may have enough isk for a new titan! I mean, no one has ever lost 3 supers in the span of a year, right guys? right?!

I heard if you do a dusty old motherfucker will mail you a fuzzy pink cowboy hat.

[BiggerDangDude]

try harder

Don't encourage him.

[nerfPLsoicanwin [banned]]

Well, isn't there a difference between a Hellcat fleet and a bunch of abaddons thrown together by say, MM?

MM took those fits from us a while back ago. And PL copied hellcats from CVA. You know very little, let me teach you.

[Don Peyote]

Proof CVA are the ultimate elite PVP Alliance

[Razzor]

I wonder how these threads would go if you just banned the word super cap. Its becoming as cringe worthy as the amount of effort that alt account is putting into showing us how upset he is.

[nerfPLsoicanwin [banned]]

I wonder how these threads would go if you just banned the word super cap. Its becoming as cringe worthy as the amount of effort that alt account is putting into showing us how upset he is.

a 'umad' post? Would expect nothing more from a goon.

[Mira Z]

Proof CVA are the ultimate elite PVP Alliance

True that, though people still haven't caught on to the magic of pulsepocs yet...

[Endie]

I for one am mostly surprised how many people actually believe the bullshit feeded to them from their HC, and this is both true for Goons and NERP.

I don't do updates when I either don't know what's happening - and might thus tell people stuff that turn out to be bullshit - or do know what's happening and might be tempted to obfuscate, because part of what makes them work is that I've yet to have someone quote one back to me on gf dot com and say "you were lying/totally wrong", in almost 18 months of doing them. Sometimes you can have a positive, propagandistic effect just by making sure your people know what's happening and can buy into a narrative.

Of course, our truth might not agree with your truth, but the fact that there are many possible interpretations of events and situations is one of Eve's joys. An alliance that is relatively new might be genuinely very happy to have two or three months ahead with supercapital dominance over us, because a quarter of a year is a fair proportion of their entire history. We, at exactly the same time, can be very happy that in a few months we'll probably see our subcapital dominance translated into political dominance, because a couple of months is nothing over five years of history littered with periods of being utterly outgunned and yet always winning in the end. Each truth is valid in its way.

[MtA]

a 'umad' post? Would expect nothing more from a goon.

This guy is very distraught. I don't know about what, but definitely distraught.

[penifSMASH]

Y-2, you blackscreened AND logged. Some might say, Goontimes were had.

hi jm i still miss you

[nerfPLsoicanwin [banned]]

True that, though people still haven't caught on to the magic of pulsepocs yet...

machacs are better. Pulsepocs are too easily countered.

[Endie]

Did I mention time dilation?

At the moment the asymetrical counters to battleships don't work in the biggest fights because of lag. If CCP manage to get time dilation working as it should, it changes the game drastically for blobs. Imagine: bombs that actually go off where you want them to in a 1000 man fight.

For all people are moaning now about how a hundred guys in supercarriers can hold a several hundred man BS blob at bay, its going to be much worse when that BS blob gets ripped to shreds by 20 guys in bombers.

The best bomber FC in Eve history is a goon.

You keep saying this, but it's hard to tell what, if anything, will change until we get some hints on what said nerf will actually contain.

I keep telling people to subscribe to my twitter feed because CCP Soundwave laid out some quite detailed hints there in a couple of convos but only 23 dudes did

There aren't many entities that can muster up 700 ships to a fleet. And Goon.co can only do it because they are at DEFCON 5.

Defcon counts down, ad everyone who remembers the movie Wargames or PWEI's Def Con One can tell you.

[jeffraider]

shadoo is in north eastern swat

ehehehe

[Lorren Canada]

MM took those fits from us a while back ago. And PL copied hellcats from CVA. You know very little, let me teach you.

That wasn't exactly my point... when PL uses Hellcats it usually works cause they have exactly the same fits, with very good fcs and members who are informed about the weakness and strengths of the Hellcats. If MM has a "Hellcat" fleet, you have a hodgepodge of slightly different fittings, fcs who are only decentish and members who may or may not know anything really about the ship they are flying and why they should be flying it.

Thus the difference between IT's "Alpha fleet" - that had tempests, arty-apocs and other asshatery thrown in - and a proper DC Alphafleet with unified fits, ships and (increasingly) knowledgeable members.

[Svennig]

You sir are a credit to your alliance.

You don't get one because you want one, you get one so as to hopefully have enough in your alliance to facilitate a super cap deterrent, similar in concept to a nuclear arsenal.

Dude, I play this game for fun. Not to be America to your Soviets in this particular arms race. The 500B you spent on the 13 Nyxes, 9 Aeons and the Avatar that you used earlier to take down that enormous fleet of 3 supers could fund current-level reimbursements for the alliance for over a year. Hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people on cruiser roams, on maelstrom whelps, on highsec ganks, on industrial death races. On skillbooks for newbies, on tacklerifters, on shitfits. On aid flotillas. But no, you spent it so that 23 people could spend 99% of their time logged off at a POS some place, then log in to kill something (with almost 10:1 advantage of course), then log off again.

Arms races are for fools. So by all means, keep playing.

[Malcanis]

I think it's more that the goons saw potential in the alphastroms and after doing the math, realized with their numbers and organization they could do things with it others hadn't. The goons didn't create the alpha fleet, but they were the first to create a large coherent fleet of alphastroms and use them effectively on the battlefield.

IIRC, goons implemented the alphafleet doctrine at the time of the learning skills SP refund, meaning that many hundreds of pilots could insta-train the required skills.

[Lorren Canada]

IIRC, goons implemented the alphafleet doctrine at the time of the learning skills SP refund, meaning that many hundreds of pilots could insta-train the required skills.

Another example of good organization and leveraging game mechanics to the benefit of the alliance. Additionally there are precise skill plans that will get you into in alpha fleet ships asap.

[Sezja]

No matter how its spin'd, goons and friends are slowly building a core of halfway competent people with sensible setups, while being glued together by a common culture that inoculates its members against common drama failures and cascades. And it seems not everyone is a big fan of that once supers get balanced.

[Grath]

But no, you spent it so that 23 people could spend

I see you didn't know that all PL supercaps and titans are privately funded by the owners?

Our alliance money is spent on ships, like logis, hics, dics, command ships, and dreads.

Oh and fuel, tons of fuel.

But regardless, we don't spend it on supers, we encourage members to get their own.

Evidently you don't like being a team player though.

[s]Also you seem mad about those 3 dead supers, I take it you're in UPS.[/s]

I saw the rifter bit, my bad.

[Djehngo]

There is nothing new under the sun. AC/Neut shield pests, pulse apocs with cap boosters and tracking comps and maelstroms with 1400mm artillery are not concepts beyond the thought of mere mortals, gifted unto alliances by divine inspiration. They are obvious ideas even before the benefit of hindsight.

What makes an alliance "own" a concept is the faith they require to roll it out, the dedication to perfect it and the skilled FCs to command it (you still won't convince me that flying ships of the line takes skill when it is merely orbiting the anchor, locking a broadcast and hitting f1)

For example, from what I know SoT "came up with" AB pulse zealots with heavy guardian support, however AHACs were not feared until PL started putting them together in larger numbers, with refined fits, disciplined fleets and the links/drugs which make them invulnerable.

People had used RRBS including domis before however it was Cursed Alliance who were infamous for balls of RR domis using sentry drones slaved to the FC (before it was realised that bombs ate domi fleets alive)

By the same token the clusterfuck are to my knowledge the only entity who consistently fly alphafleets with well standardised fits and have refined, tested and "perfected"* the concept.

TL;DR: Inventing something in the sense of being the first to fly or EFT a fit is meaningless, making some commitment to a concept iterating upon it however is notable.

*That is not to say that alphafleet is a perfect composition, only that the clusterfuck bloc FCs are intimately familiar with it and the composition is now in a state in which it is hard to improve upon it without changing the core ideas or the characters/people who are actually flying the ships.



Edit: Why is it always the dumber topics which draw me out into actually making posts

[Lorren Canada]

Edit: Why is it always the dumber topics which draw me out into actually making posts

It's better than talking (arguing) about supers

[Svennig]

I see you didn't know that all PL supercaps and titans are privately funded by the owners?

Come on, that's not fair, now I just pity them. Not because they had to fund them themselves, but because they were able to do so.

Evidently you don't like being a team player though.

You sound like my previous boss. Every time I pointed out why a particular plan was flawed he used that line, as if there was some inherent nobility in engaging in playing something that neither side is going to enjoy. That basically the game was to be endured, not enjoyed. By your logic, we should all be working on supercap fleets so that we don't have to use them and can live the dream of never logging in - sounds real fun, and an excellent investment in time, money and skills for the players involved. Or you could, you know, not play that particular game. And in a climate where CCP has acknowledged that the proliferation and power of supercaps lacks both balance and a decent counter, the more you trot them out, the larger the numbers you trot them out in, and the more times you push that win button, the harder the nerf bat's gonna hit.

I saw the rifter bit, my bad.

Yes, and my apologies: I was slightly incorrect in my post: UPS had 4 supers, one got away. If we wanted to engage your supers with a comparable numbers advantage, we'd need to accumulate a supercap blob of 78 nyxes, 54 aeons and 6 avatars.

Yeah, that arms race looks like a real fun game.

[nerfPLsoicanwin [banned]]

Svennig, one of many who complain about not being able to 'win'. Not everyone can be a winner in the 'Zero Sum Game' of war friend.

[Jirai Grepher]

I heard someone was calling for mouth breathers in this thread?

Also David's new song is fantastic.

[Grath]

Yes, and my apologies: I was slightly incorrect in my post: UPS had 4 supers, one got away. If we wanted to engage your supers with a comparable numbers advantage, we'd need to accumulate a supercap blob of 78 nyxes, 54 aeons and 6 avatars.

Actually i think we can bring something like near 60+ titans and 250+ supers (just from PL)to bear should we need to. Not exactly sure what you think they can do to nerf that aside from completely removing their combat ability, which they won't do.

[Mizuchi]

People seem to think the 'nerf' will make supercaps totally useless. I very much doubt that will happen.

[Razzor]

This thread is literally groundhog day

[Flinx]

There were those days when we just had Ubernator and nightjackel active in titans and the entire super fleet was about 10.
I recall us kicking ass regularly despite it.

The thing about nerfs is it may seem they are directed at PL (end of sov 4, dyspro, AOE DD etc), but they effect everyone and we are still here.

I'm sure there will be something else to cry about when they nerf nano's erm supers.

[Malcanis]

(you still won't convince me that flying ships of the line takes skill when it is merely orbiting the anchor, locking a broadcast and hitting f1)

This popular meme flies in the face of the repeatedly, frequently observed evidence that small fleets can beat big fleets. If there's no individual skill in flying a fleet ship, how come so many people do it so very badly?

I'm not saying that it takes as much skill as soloing EVE, but to say that it takes no skill is evidently wrong. There is a very significant difference in effectiveness between a fleet member who is alert, understands how the fleet doctrine works, and can follow FC orders precisely and interpret them intelligently, and the HURRRR CTRL-A cat flying, ratting overview using, "does hold mean jump?" ungrouped guns using scrub to whom the word "align" is literally incomprehensible.

It's noticeable that the biggest proponents of the "fleets don't require skill" line are usually members of groups which don't do fleets very well.

EDIT: Yes, good FCs make a massive difference, but good FCs require competent fleet members to do their best work.

[Svennig]

Actually i think we can bring something like near 60+ titans and 250+ supers (just from PL)to bear should we need to. Not exactly sure what you think they can do to nerf that aside from completely removing their combat ability, which they won't do.

That's simultaneously impressive and dismaying in equal measure.

As to what they're going to do, who knows. I'll happily admit that they're not going to render them impotent (and that only a very heavy nerf would render numbers such as you've stated impotent anyway).

What I'd like to see is a buff to make individual (or small groups of) supers more vulnerable to large subcap fleets, coupled with the introduction of a dedicated counter (even if it's special snowflake). Something like triage carriers being immune to DD and able to rep sieged dreads. Dreads getting a bonus to damage output. Destroyers with a big bonus to damage done against fighterbombers. Carriers would need a fuel bay buff to hold a few cycles of stront - say, 5000 m3. Perhaps make it so that supers need to siege to deploy FBs, and therefore can't recieve reps (although I'm not convinced this isn't too-big of a hit).

I don't want supercaps to go away. I want them to be a little bit more vulnerable in general, and I want more direct counters. If the counter has to be quite carefully orchestrated, so much the better: it should need skill, not be another CCP fucking winbutton. But then again, I don't play supercaps in space, I don't want to play supercaps in space, so what the fuck do I know.

[Jinli mei]

no no let me tell you about my idea that'll fix supercaps and keep [s]dbrbs dog from barking[/s] dbrb from talking

e: fixed last bit

[DavidKMagnus]

It took a while to catch up on all the recent developments, but it was worth it.

My biggest concern is that my friends in GSF are disheartened after thinking they had bested PL's supercaps, only to lose their own.
Guys, just hang in there a little longer, supers will be nerfed soon and you will have free reign over the north. No one can match your subcap fleets, and soon enough you wont have to use them only under jammers.

The Mittani, I put together some material for you to try and keep your guys on track, I hope it helps people keep their morale up!
http://soundcloud.com/davidkmagnus/supercaps

[Elise Randolph]

PLUS FUCKING REP GOD DAMN

[Grath]

The Mittani, I put together some material for you to try and keep your guys on track, I hope it helps people keep their morale up!
http://soundcloud.com/davidkmagnus/supercaps

If anybody in HABIT ever gives you shit, know that you have shelter in SNIGG.


EDIT: How much for your woman

[Grath]

• Thread: The Hundred Days' War (~New Northern Thread~) Another buttlicker.
  
  2011-07-24 08:14 PM Sansa Comfrey
  
  

SANSA COMFREY YOU FREEDOM HATING COCKSUCKER

Did you seriously just neg rep that song?

The fuck.

THE
FUCK

[The Mittani]

It took a while to catch up on all the recent developments, but it was worth it.

My biggest concern is that my friends in GSF are disheartened after thinking they had bested PL's supercaps, only to lose their own.
Guys, just hang in there a little longer, supers will be nerfed soon and you will have free reign over the north. No one can match your subcap fleets, and soon enough you wont have to use them only under jammers.

The Mittani, I put together some material for you to try and keep your guys on track, I hope it helps people keep their morale up!
http://soundcloud.com/davidkmagnus/supercaps

This absolutely owns, you have a pretty singing voice :3

Anyway, I took a nap and the bmerc poster made a new account to try to talk more about how awesome bmerc is, that's fixed.

[Djehngo]

This popular meme flies in the face of the repeatedly, frequently observed evidence that small fleets can beat big fleets. If there's no individual skill in flying a fleet ship, how come so many people do it so very badly?

I'm not saying that it takes as much skill as soloing EVE, but to say that it takes no skill is evidently wrong. There is a very significant difference in effectiveness between a fleet member who is alert, understands how the fleet doctrine works, and can follow FC orders precisely and interpret them intelligently, and the HURRRR CTRL-A cat flying, ratting overview using, "does hold mean jump?" ungrouped guns using scrub to whom the word "align" is literally incomprehensible.

It's noticeable that the biggest proponents of the "fleets don't require skill" line are usually members of groups which don't do fleets very well.

EDIT: Yes, good FCs make a massive difference, but good FCs require competent fleet members to do their best work.

My point was less about ships of the line taking no skill and more about the FC skill and knowledge being the important factor when testing new doctrines. I will admit that I I was being flippant regarding the skill required for ships of the line, there is also:

• Aligning where the FC tells you to or orbiting the correct anchor
• Making sure you have your hardeners actually switched on
• turning your MWD on or off at the correct time
• Managing cap
• Timing your strikes with the rest of the fleet in order to break reps

When primaried

• Calling for reps, preferably when your overview goes yellow rather than when you are entering structure
• Overheating your hardeners then stopping them from burning out
• Taking drugs (x-instinct primarily)
• Aligning at 90degrees from the hostile fleet or burning out of range

However; none of this is particularly difficult and most of it transfers neatly between Drakes, Maelstroms, Abaddons and Tenugs which is my main point. Given very basic competence in a laerge enough proportion of membership the "expertise" in flying a new doctrine is mainly in the FCing of it.

Tangent Resumed:
I understand what you are saying that with every member understanding how to fly their ship the FC won't need to worry so much about telling people what ammo to use or telling them that sitting on Abaddons at 0 is bad and they should probably burn out. However the FC typically can't rely on everyone having brackets on, good spatial awareness and an understanding of where they should be.

Furthermore in terms of the damage on target and the EHP of the fleet once people know how to do the things listed above and assuming the fits ar standardised nothing changes: Knowing how sig radius affects damage doesn't increase your damage, understanding why you have an AB rather than a MWD on your ship doesn't make your sig smaller and a pilot who understands why it's good to trade small amounts of EHP for better resists will live just as long under fire as one who doesn't.

Regarding the gate thing: If you have 100 people in your fleet and there is a 3% chance per member for a given "action" of a fuckup (due to stupidity or it just being dinner time / whatever) then there is a 95% chance that at-least one person will fuck up on that action each time.

Edit: Awesome song.

[Razzor]

I love that song, literally needs to be in the next SotG.

[Phineas Freak]

It took a while to catch up on all the recent developments, but it was worth it.

My biggest concern is that my friends in GSF are disheartened after thinking they had bested PL's supercaps, only to lose their own.
Guys, just hang in there a little longer, supers will be nerfed soon and you will have free reign over the north. No one can match your subcap fleets, and soon enough you wont have to use them only under jammers.

The Mittani, I put together some material for you to try and keep your guys on track, I hope it helps people keep their morale up!
http://soundcloud.com/davidkmagnus/supercaps

my baby sleeps well tonight

[Propagandas]

SANSA COMFREY YOU FREEDOM HATING COCKSUCKER

Did you seriously just neg rep that song?

The fuck.

THE
FUCK

lets negrep bomb that sansa fucker

[Hombre]

That's actually a solid point - the GSF directorate is full of frighteningly educated types who've been uncommonly successful irl. We have four+ lawyers, a couple of millionares, a champion poker player/lawyer, a gaggle of high-end computer types, etc. We also have some stereotypical nerds, but since I seem to be one of the few alliance leaders willing to fire people regularly (we lose a director a month, thereabouts) so we roughly approach a meritocracy.

you of all people oughta know that lawyer = successful is a suspect equation

exhibit a: all the unemployed lawyers
exhibit b: all the slightly less unlucky lawyers working at dargon-esque shitlaw practices
exhibit c: all the almost-not-unlucky lawyers putting in three or four years of debt-slave doc review before they get burned out and quit

[Razzor]

In exchange for this lovely song you have wrote for us we will arrange for Endie to play something on his bagpipes for PL.

[Sezja]

PLUS FUCKING REP GOD DAMN

Carrie > Taylor


you know it to be true