Let's all argue circles around ourselves!

**Grath** · 2011-01-17

You're wrong.

**BobFromMarketing [banned]** · 2011-01-17

Nope

**Malcanis** · 2011-01-17

Originally Posted by BobFromMarketing

Nope

The NC has lost stations as well - albeit temporarily.

But please can we stop all this "but this will mean the end of small alliances" bullshit. It's about on a par with saying we should stop using mobile phones because they stop Dodos breeding. Maybe that true but it doesn't matter because there aren't any god damb Dodos.

**BobFromMarketing [banned]** · 2011-01-17

Originally Posted by Malcanis

The NC has lost stations as well - albeit temporarily.

But please can we stop all this "but this will mean the end of small alliances" bullshit. It's about on a par with saying we should stop using mobile phones because they stop Dodos breeding. Maybe that true but it doesn't matter because there aren't any god damb Dodos.

This post makes less sense than a decapitated body having an open casket funeral

**Grog** · 2011-01-17

- make JBs only anchorable on volcanic planets or something weird like that, or just remove them altogether as was mentioned in the CSM minutes

- away with multiple tcu/ihub timers, bring back pos spam or change tcus to only have a single reinforce timer and the need of them to be at the majority of planets in a system, with ihubs not being relevant to sov holding at all

**Dipluz** · 2011-01-17

Remove Jump-bridges, and nerf technetium a little. and make a 100% increase in build materials for Super carriers and everything will be in line with how eve is supposed to be

**Dipluz** · 2011-01-17

Originally Posted by Viribus

I find their spiel about hybrids hilarious, it's like they've never actually played the game. Blasters are working as intended, it's just that the ships that use them are such pigs that, regardless of tank, by the time they get into range their DPS advantage is totally outweighed by all the damage they took from ACs or pulses on the way there. The only reason serpentis ships sort of work is because they can control range within 19KM and they accelerate very fast despite their relatively low base speed, which lessens the "terrible range" disadvantage.

Ill give u 1 curse and bye Megathron and who cant fly Curse today after 7 years of existance?

**Aurora148** · 2011-01-17

Originally Posted by Dipluz

Remove Jump-bridges, and nerf technetium a little. and make a 100% increase in build materials for Super carriers and everything will be in line with how eve is supposed to be

get the fuck out

**Eejit** · 2011-01-17

Originally Posted by Dipluz

Remove Jump-bridges, and nerf technetium a little. and make a 100% increase in build materials for Super carriers and everything will be in line with how eve is supposed to be

Herpaderp, because increasing build cost of supers will do so much to balance the thousands of them prancing around already.

**Murr** · 2011-01-17

I love theorycrafting threads. They are always so bad.

**Dipluz** · 2011-01-17

Originally Posted by Czech Lion

if i would write the snow is white, you would write its wrong Malcanis. But lets think we can argue with each other on a decent level. Atm blobs rule, but they will again, if not more when jumpbridges are removed and logistics made harder. Why?

Cause big alliances/blobs will always have much easier logistics due to sheer size of numbers and it doesnt really matter if you run bridge network or titan bridge network or freighter ops. More people, less work for individual pilots.

tl:dr Atm small alliances dont flourish and wont even after logistics is made harder. It will make deep 0.0 even safer from invasions than now as noone will put the effort. CCP is wrong in thinking that easy logistics is what holds and makes blobs grow.

They will beacuse they have something called jump freighters. keep the jump freighters remove the JB at least then there will be more activity =)

**Dipluz** · 2011-01-17

Originally Posted by Hratli Smirks

The most important thing for an alliance interested in conquering space to arrange for is supercapital support. Twenty hostiles in supercaps will absolutely dominate a supercap-less alliance at will unless they have five hundred man fleets or a whole grip of allied supercapitals on-call willing to drop on them.

Nerfing jump bridges seems like it would murder what's left of 0.0 production and just shift everything except for supercap production to Empire and rely on JF importation of finished goods. Which I guess is fine, if you are an established alliance with JF services. I'd expect supercap production in Drone Region renter alliances to blow through the fucking roof, though.

you could also answer one thing, compressing minerals for a SC in 2 full JFs, then you dont really need JB Anyway =)

**Dipluz** · 2011-01-17

Originally Posted by MpozoY

Pretty much every new feature, mechanic or patch in the last 4 years? Not that they all worked, of course, but still.

This blog sounds like they want to crank the clock back to 2006, making the mistake that all the bittervets make thinking that gameplay will return to the same heady 2006 days, when instead all the casual players will vanish and all you'll have are hotdrop gangs with no targets and highsec macrominers left.

Seriously every one of the ideas quoted in the op with the exception of the supercap nerf is dumber than a bag of hammers and continues to demonstrate that CCP has absolutely no comprehension of unintended consequence whatsoever

I agree with you there, super caps are made to kill other caps, if u cant handle evolution of that change maybe u should look into subscribing to wow =)
Theres plenty of corps and alliances out there with very few if any super caps that still kill them on a regular basis beacuse people with super caps gets cocky and does stupid mistakes when they belivie their invinceable.

**Hav** · 2011-01-17

Originally Posted by Dipluz

you could also answer one thing, compressing minerals for a SC in 2 full JFs, then you dont really need JB Anyway =)

After reading your past few posts, I can see that you have a very poor understanding of 0.0 logistics or you belong in a group that has a poor understanding of 0.0 logistics.

edit: Oh god, stop posting.

**Hratli Smirks** · 2011-01-17

Originally Posted by Grath

Man this thread for the last 3 pages is pretty much everybody from Geminate down to the border of fountain complaining about how removing jump bridges won't make the game better.

I wonder why that is?

Lot of dudes who live in NPC 0.0 arguing that making logistics soul-crushingly hard will encourage young, small, independent alliances to take sov.

**Hratli Smirks** · 2011-01-17

Originally Posted by Grath

I'd really, REALLY like to see destructible stations with some kind of mechanic to support it.

Any natural NPC station can be immune, but if its dropped by a player, let there be an option to remove it.

*lives in NPC station*

**Malcanis** · 2011-01-17

Originally Posted by Hratli Smirks

Lot of dudes who live in NPC 0.0 arguing that making logistics soul-crushingly hard will encourage young, small, independent alliances to take sov.

Young small independent alliances aren't going to take any sov anyway.

**Hav** · 2011-01-17

Originally Posted by Malcanis

Young small independent alliances aren't going to take any sov anyway.

Not unless they're in a bordering system for a larger alliance to act as a sort of 'shield' affair made of 'meat'.

**MpozoY** · 2011-01-17

Originally Posted by Malcanis

Young small independent alliances aren't going to take any sov anyway.

Which makes it all the sillier of a reason to claim as justification for making logistics soul-crushingly hard

**MpozoY** · 2011-01-17

Drunk And Stoned alliance would never have been able to ninja sov from us in Querious without jump frieghters

and beer and weed

**tgr** · 2011-01-17

But see, if only the north didn't have all these jumpbridges, MAX3 will succeed, so it's worth it you see.

**fulis** · 2011-01-17

Originally Posted by Hratli Smirks

Lot of dudes who live in NPC 0.0 arguing that making logistics soul-crushingly hard will encourage young, small, independent alliances to take sov.

When I lived in NPC sov I was like "I want jump bridges!"

**Hratli Smirks** · 2011-01-17

hey guys remember the Goode Old Dayes before jump bridges? None of this multi-regional bloc warfare, nothing but good fights at your doorstop 23/7 (this statement is false)

**Hav** · 2011-01-17

Originally Posted by Hratli Smirks

hey guys remember the Goode Old Dayes before jump bridges? None of this multi-regional bloc warfare, nothing but good fights at your doorstop 23/7 (this statement is false)

I just wish that someone at CCP would model the systems before coming out with retarded statements. If you remove jump bridges, then you lose force projection, which reduces the viable borders of your space. This contracts the available space for ratting and other retarded shenanigans, which leads to people relying on the staples of money production in Level IV missions, jumping back to defend their moongoo/home systems because sov warfare has become a 3 day timezone commitment.

If they really wanted to mix things up, they should bang a counter on the moon products and once it's gone, require another survey. This wouldn't actually create nomadic alliances chasing moon goo around because it's a fucking nightmare to contemplate such a stupid fucking idea. Almost as fucking stupid as having static and clustered resources in the first place. Double Tech moons, anyone?

The MAJOR problem that Eve has isn't the 101 little fucking tweaks they make to the system that destabilize the whole thing, it's the purely static environment that they've built for themselves based on the understanding that they'd actually produce events somewhere down the line. They need to kick all the systems a couple of times and see what falls out.

From the CCP angle, the rot started in a few years back when they started farming out programming units under scrum. This isn't usually a bad idea if you have a unified idea of your endpoint...a broad goal or objective....a specific product. CCP doesn't have that, but has several fiefdoms that do NOT have a unifying principle. Occasionally they hit the nail on the head, such as the speed rebalances, but the majority of the time they come up with retarded solutions to problems that don't entirely exist, such as the Sov changes. Yes, everyone was pissed off with tower spam, but there were more elegant ways to deal with the identified problem than creating a whole new system of shooting objects. This came to a head with the proposed supercap changes and the subsequent hurf-blurf rollback.

There are many, many, many minor changes that they could make on a basis of 'seeing what happens', but those minor changes don't make good reading for quarterly reviews and padding the resume.

edit: Someone will ignore the text and point out that at one hand I'm advocating big changes to the systems, but on the other hand I'm saying that big changes are the problem. In the first instance I'm talking about changing the environment (so devoid of players, the universe changes). In the second I'm referring to gross changes that are applied BY players and subject to positive feedback fuckery that fucks any hope of them creating the intended change.

**Hratli Smirks** · 2011-01-17

"No you see jump bridges make it too easy to project force far from home!"

*drops fifty supercaps*

**Hratli Smirks** · 2011-01-17

I can basically do this all day

CCP's problem is they want to "improve" their game by doing big flashy changes instead of fixing dumb/broken stuff from years before because fixing old broken stuff is hard and/or boring

**Hav** · 2011-01-17

Originally Posted by Hratli Smirks

I can basically do this all day

CCP's problem is they want to "improve" their game by doing big flashy changes instead of fixing dumb/broken stuff from years before because fixing old broken stuff is hard and/or boring

2010: The year they came up with bandwidth modelling.

**scaevola** · 2011-01-17

If they ever remove JBs, I'm gonna be doubly happy I caved and trained up a carrier...

**tgr** · 2011-01-17

Remove JBs, remove local, remove intel channels. Make roaming gangs deadly to any alliance which doesn't gatecamp any and all gates leading in to their space. EVE is now hardcore and FUN again!

**Endie** · 2011-01-17

I help run one of the big, multi-region alliances and even I want jump bridges to be removed. I want jump freighters nerfed. I want 0.0 systems increased in capacity so that a big alliance like Goonswarm or IT or AAA can live in three or four constellations, and I want it to be easy to run enough space but increasingly brutal to run or afford to run more (and yes I can think of un-gameable ways to do that). I would love to see 0.0 vary in quality again in a meaningful way, so that there is space like Providence once was where low-level powers could live because nobody else wanted it.

People say "yeah fuck ccp that'll make running all of Tribute and half of branch and tenal hell". Well, maybe having to hold all that space isn't ideal for the game, and perhaps not even ideal for you? In the unlikely event that CCP made an alliance able to live in a smaller space then maybe we should just be fighting our wars over moons and grudges and griefing, not grabbing thirty more systems because the macrobotters are getting cramped like so many people seem to.

Basically I'd like to see a balkanized patchwork of mid-sized and small-sized alliances and it would require courage for CCP to come up with it but it wouldn't be that hard and it would be cool.

**Rovern Hashu** · 2011-01-17

I'd like to see your logistics teams fuel all those high-end towers with nerfed jumpfreighters and no jumpbridges. Sure it was done before, but can you really find enough people willing to help pick up the slack these days?

**Carebears** · 2011-01-17

Originally Posted by Groundhog

I help run one of the big, multi-region alliances and even I want jump bridges to be removed. I want jump freighters nerfed. I want 0.0 systems increased in capacity so that a big alliance like Goonswarm or IT or AAA can live in three or four constellations, and I want it to be easy to run enough space but increasingly brutal to run or afford to run more (and yes I can think of un-gameable ways to do that). I would love to see 0.0 vary in quality again in a meaningful way, so that there is space like Providence once was where low-level powers could live because nobody else wanted it.

People say "yeah fuck ccp that'll make running all of Tribute and half of branch and tenal hell". Well, maybe having to hold all that space isn't ideal for the game, and perhaps not even ideal for you? In the unlikely event that CCP made an alliance able to live in a smaller space then maybe we should just be fighting our wars over moons and grudges and griefing, not grabbing thirty more systems because the macrobotters are getting cramped like so many people seem to.

Basically I'd like to see a balkanized patchwork of mid-sized and small-sized alliances and it would require courage for CCP to come up with it but it wouldn't be that hard and it would be cool.

You're a man of vision, you have my vote. Endie for CSM.

**Manfred Hideous** · 2011-01-17

If logistics must suddenly be nerfed, CCP should set up some new gates and null closer to HS or the outlying regions will never be attractive to anyone other than the same people who are already able to project power to all ends of the map.

**Sertan** · 2011-01-17

If that CSM rundown doesn't show you that CCP really is out to make this game as boring and terrible as possible, I'm not sure what will. That said, I don't worry too much about anything the CSM says or does. So few of their ideas have ever come to total fruition, or in the exact way they stated it, things like "Remove jump bridges" will morph to something else almost unrecognizable by the time it hits any sort of code phase.

If JB's were ever removed I'd just go find another game to play. This game already borders on the "Why in the fuck do I play this hunk of shit again?" status, but even the electrostatic equilibrium I've found between "This game sucks" and "But damn the drama and meta game is awesome" would quickly buckle under the gravitational pull of "This game sucks" if CCP were to do something to make my in-game life that much worse.

**flowerpot** · 2011-01-17

Originally Posted by Groundhog

I help run one of the big, multi-region alliances and even I want jump bridges to be removed. I want jump freighters nerfed. I want 0.0 systems increased in capacity so that a big alliance like Goonswarm or IT or AAA can live in three or four constellations, and I want it to be easy to run enough space but increasingly brutal to run or afford to run more (and yes I can think of un-gameable ways to do that). I would love to see 0.0 vary in quality again in a meaningful way, so that there is space like Providence once was where low-level powers could live because nobody else wanted it.

People say "yeah fuck ccp that'll make running all of Tribute and half of branch and tenal hell". Well, maybe having to hold all that space isn't ideal for the game, and perhaps not even ideal for you? In the unlikely event that CCP made an alliance able to live in a smaller space then maybe we should just be fighting our wars over moons and grudges and griefing, not grabbing thirty more systems because the macrobotters are getting cramped like so many people seem to.

Basically I'd like to see a balkanized patchwork of mid-sized and small-sized alliances and it would require courage for CCP to come up with it but it wouldn't be that hard and it would be cool.

Oh yes! Please... this!

**Eejit** · 2011-01-17

Originally Posted by Sertan

If JB's were ever removed I'd just go find another game to play. This game already borders on the "Why in the fuck do I play this hunk of shit again?" status, but even the electrostatic equilibrium I've found between "This game sucks" and "But damn the drama and meta game is awesome" would quickly buckle under the gravitational pull of "This game sucks" if CCP were to do something to make my in-game life that much worse.

Oh you delicate little petal.

Yeah, removing JB entirely is too extreme but all the CSM minutes said is that it'd be considered when looking at the issue. Hopefully they take some other measure like moving them to planets or perhaps asteroid belts - for freighters being tackled by rats!

**Farham** · 2011-01-17

As far as jump bridges go, keep them but limit them to industrial/logistical ships. Its one thing to force fleets/pvp ships to go all those jumps (or use a titan-s) and force gate to gate danger, its entirely another to make the thankless shit job of logistics even worse.

**Phil Throbber** · 2011-01-17

Originally Posted by Manfred Hideous

If logistics must suddenly be nerfed, CCP should set up some new gates and null closer to HS or the outlying regions will never be attractive to anyone other than the same people who are already able to project power to all ends of the map.

you can find wh's to low/high sec easy as cake. there problem solved.

**uhh yeah dude** · 2011-01-17

Originally Posted by Groundhog

I help run one of the big, multi-region alliances and even I want jump bridges to be removed. I want jump freighters nerfed. I want 0.0 systems increased in capacity so that a big alliance like Goonswarm or IT or AAA can live in three or four constellations, and I want it to be easy to run enough space but increasingly brutal to run or afford to run more (and yes I can think of un-gameable ways to do that). I would love to see 0.0 vary in quality again in a meaningful way, so that there is space like Providence once was where low-level powers could live because nobody else wanted it.

People say "yeah fuck ccp that'll make running all of Tribute and half of branch and tenal hell". Well, maybe having to hold all that space isn't ideal for the game, and perhaps not even ideal for you? In the unlikely event that CCP made an alliance able to live in a smaller space then maybe we should just be fighting our wars over moons and grudges and griefing, not grabbing thirty more systems because the macrobotters are getting cramped like so many people seem to.

Basically I'd like to see a balkanized patchwork of mid-sized and small-sized alliances and it would require courage for CCP to come up with it but it wouldn't be that hard and it would be cool.

I like this idea but I would add to it that the further away from high sec you are the better the space. Make it logistically hard to supply the area but make it so that it can be one of the most profitable ones.

**Kazanir** · 2011-01-17

Or allow ihubs to actually....supply some infrastructure. What if...

- moons were balanced and generally more valuable than everything except tech is now
- you could establish automated mining rigs in system belts that delivered ore to the ihub during a certain timer 1x/day
- grav sites didn't require mining ships, but instead were a real wormhole/incursion-like pirate encounter
- these sites could reward bonus ihub ore, moon minerals/advanced goo, and t2/PI components, all to be picked up at the ihub during the delivery timer
- ihubs could let you track/predict solar anomalies in that constellation which would spawn special combat/exploration sites, again for more ihub loot
- ihubs granted upgrades to POS or outpost production facilitites in the system with certain upgrades

etc.

The real danger is that they find out when a single 0.0 system can support 20-30 people instead of 4-5, that there simply aren't enough 0.0 players to support Endie's vision.

**Grath** · 2011-01-17

Originally Posted by Hratli Smirks

"No you see jump bridges make it too easy to project force far from home!"

*drops fifty supercaps*

Won't happen, they have been talking about reducing jump ranges as well for caps and supercaps.

Originally Posted by Sertan

If that CSM rundown doesn't show you that CCP really is out to make this game as boring and terrible as possible, I'm not sure what will. That said, I don't worry too much about anything the CSM says or does. So few of their ideas have ever come to total fruition, or in the exact way they stated it, things like "Remove jump bridges" will morph to something else almost unrecognizable by the time it hits any sort of code phase.

If JB's were ever removed I'd just go find another game to play. This game already borders on the "Why in the fuck do I play this hunk of shit again?" status, but even the electrostatic equilibrium I've found between "This game sucks" and "But damn the drama and meta game is awesome" would quickly buckle under the gravitational pull of "This game sucks" if CCP were to do something to make my in-game life that much worse.

If you are so fucking bitter that the removal of jump bridges makes you quit, then your probably better off just fucking quitting anyway.

**Teh Ashen** · 2011-01-17

Originally Posted by Kazanir

The real danger is that they find out when a single 0.0 system can support 20-30 people instead of 4-5, that there simply aren't enough 0.0 players to support Endie's vision.

Oh noes more empty 0.0 regions, whatever shall we do???

**Carlton Banks** · 2011-01-17

I hate all these bad ideas. Most of them seem to be odd attempts to manipulate game mechanics in order to achieve one or two results while completely ignoring the possibility for other consequences.

**Sertan** · 2011-01-17

Originally Posted by Grath

If you are so fucking bitter that the removal of jump bridges makes you quit, then your probably better off just fucking quitting anyway.

Man, you didn't even ask me if you could have my stuff. What a terrible attempt at a burn.

e: And if you think this game isn't a stinking pile of bat shit, you need to play some other games. The reason almost any of us play this game, if we are honest with ourselves, is the meta game and drama. When the draw of that meta game and drama starts to be outweighed by my total lack of desire to play this hulking shit biscuit, I will quit.

**Grath** · 2011-01-18

Originally Posted by Sertan

Man, you didn't even ask me if you could have my stuff. What a terrible attempt at a burn.

e: And if you think this game isn't a stinking pile of bat shit, you need to play some other games. The reason almost any of us play this game, if we are honest with ourselves, is the meta game and drama. When the draw of that meta game and drama starts to be outweighed by my total lack of desire to play this hulking shit biscuit, I will quit.

Thanks for telling me why I play EVE. While you were reading my mind, did you see the thought about you, being a fucking raging cocksucker who knows fuck all about why people play EVE?

I really hope that desire runs out soon.

**Banlish** · 2011-01-18

Why not instead of making all these drastic changes to jump bridges or distances or whatever the fuck, they just make it so that ships can only go through jump bridges one at a time with say a 20 to 40 second 'cool down'. We have cool downs on almost everything in the game already, add that simple one in and the game breaking 2,000 man fleet isn't going to be going from Geminate to Cloud ring in 10 minutes.

They could bypass it with a bunch of titan bridges for ease but it would probably quickly make people say "why are we holding all this shit anyway, now that we don't really need it?"

As for a way to solve all of this, I'm with Phreeze on this one. Add in more space, only I'd throw in my own little twist.

Make it exactly like when Wormhole was added in, only it would be connected by 4 to 8 static smuggler gates from empire. Say this entire 'universe' is outside of jump range for any and ALL caps (say to the west past IT space or whatever), now the 4 to 8 static smuggler gates lead to a 3 to 5 constellation high sec region. Explain that away as where ORE has been getting it's tons of minerals or some shit. This one region is one of the same exact number we have in EVE at the moment, so if we have 55 regions in all of EVE we'd have 55 over in this new space. Finally, make it so all the systems over there are like Wormhole space, no gates. However Smuggler gates could be built to connect systems (give them caps like jump bridge range and increase the cost by 100% per gate, so yeah you CAN connect 6 systems to the system you are in, but it's going to cost you like 100 billion).

1 would be high sec, the other 54 would be 0.0. Sprinkle in new ships for all races to take advantage of the 'new space' or new factions (ORE faction ships, Sisters of EVE ships etc whatever) and there would be a vast need for all of these new resources.
It also stops a few problems before they occur.
1. With no way to get caps over there besides moving tons of parts through at least 4 to 5 majorly camped areas you won't have massive fucking mega super cap blobs for a good long while.
2. The 'settler' spirit that drew so many of us into the game would return with tons or untouched, undocumented and unclaimed regions, no massive cap blobs to fag things up and no one over in 'this' universe loses there items(super caps) but can go to either quite easily for fights, kills, etc etc. with normal smaller shit.
3. With however many thousands of systems there would be massive isk sinks to 'settle' the area with outpost and smuggler gates, plus blowing each other to bits so the isk generated there could hopefully avoid flooding the market here.
4. Empires between the two simply wouldn't work, so some would rush to get out of the crowded 0.0 we have now, others would stay with what they know and built. And yes I'm trying to avoid 'just open another server'

Yeah, sorry for how long that got, but I've been talking about this with friends for years now.

**Carlton Banks** · 2011-01-18

Nother bad idea

**Grath** · 2011-01-18

Originally Posted by Banlish

Why not instead of making all these drastic changes to jump bridges or distances or whatever the fuck, they just make it so that ships can only go through jump bridges one at a time with say a 20 to 40 second 'cool down'. We have cool downs on almost everything in the game already, add that simple one in and the game breaking 2,000 man fleet isn't going to be going from Geminate to Cloud ring in 10 minutes.

Thats pretty good actually.