Incarna - stupid shit that is going to kill eve

[CCP Nozh]

We all know CCP will be ignoring 0.0 and other areas of EVE until they release incarna.

What is the pont of Incarna?

I play EVE because im huge science fiction fan. As a kid i watched Star Trek (TNG) so I'm playing EVE to fly imaginary space ships. I have no interest in seeing my character in stations sitting in bar or doing whatever. This whole venture is pointless imo because most of eve players don't care about walking around in space stations. We have players who like PVP, PVE or little bit of both but we don't have anyone who like to stay in stations. Why is CCP wasting so much time and ignoring the fundamental problem in EVE to bring this feature out.

This will not add more complexity to the game because people will check this out for few days then move on to their normal activities. Why waste resource on this venture when there is a good chance that CCP might loose some or most of its loyal customers. I have friends who had 3-4 accounts but now days they are scaling back to a single account.

I for one, will not be checking Incarna when its comes out, I pay to fly internet spaceships not walk around in stations.

[HolyAvengerOne]

Incarna ftw. Gonna bring the girls aboard.

Plus I want to drink Quafe while watching my Exotic Dancers go about

[R0ze]

What is the pont of Incarna?

To attract more and different sort of players, people which seek for another type of experience but can be still plugged in the same thing.
Eve and its universe allows to stick / ducktape loads of generally different games together like live examples would be - Shatered Horizon, Starcraft and even recent discussed Perpeetum easily fits into picture - so why not to make a monster game (of course one can say that you probably can't shine in every aspect and you will most likely end up being average or bad in each individual section but thats just connected to skill (programming / planning) rather than concept).

If the overall playerbase is bigger everyone benefits (now you can still kill that industrial guy even he doesnt really plays the game for PVP). Can compare it somewhat to Steam which binds (tries to) totally opposite games but still the same players ..

And in general what have you (most pvpers) been doing theese years? Watching red / blue / pink little squares moving arround on a black screen .. at some point it doesnt feel like that interesting anymore (except the pure social impact such actions create). Which explains why you would want to just drop the 3-4 accounts because there is nothing new to do rathern than anything else.. The moment you can and have flown every ship in the game a large part of the goal is reached and then there is a question what next?
So if they decide to fix the current problems (of which the most anoying is the "lag") using the "just purchase more hardware" approach (also can use Moore's law here) it is / could be fine even they dont dedicate any serious developer power to those issues.

But overall it's kinda useless to be frustrated about a game / piece of software (even there is a lots of time you have wasted) ..
If the product is doomed to die it will at some point - CCP is not that new company back in 1999 anymore so assuming that they don't have an established road / milestones they have to follow imho is wrong the same way thinking that an individual customer has any (major) influence.

Just my ISK.
.. also there have been threadnauts on Kugu with similar topic before Tyrannis

[Murr]

I for one will love Incarna. It's station spinning with a whole interface of funky stuff.

[CCP Nozh]

@ Roze

More players = win. However, don't you thing if they add more features without fixing lag then 0.0 lag becomes very real in high sec too? Shouldn't they address lag first and find a solution before attracting new customers. There will be rush of new players but they'll be hit by lag sooner or later and eventually they'll leave and attract bad press too.

[Dregek]

there is no easy fix for lag, once they find a way (if any) to allow multiple core/blades to run a single node/system it will clear it up for the most part but it will just set a new higher blob numbers.

Ideally eve's servers should be dynamic load I:e if jita has 1500 people in it and suddenly 1000 more want to join local a second blade could come in on the fly then drop out once numbers subside

[R0ze]

there is no easy fix for lag

Well there is also an "easy" fix (at least temporar till the the population hits critical mass again) - if your code isnt really paralel computing friendly (its also the one creating a lot of troubles because of its nature and all kinds of interconnects) just replace the single node with more powerfull hardware - switch those tiny IBM blades with standalone quadruple quadcore / sixcore / N-core servers each having moar ram etc etc

But that involves either spending extra money or just waiting for the new generation of hardware (each quarter / half a year) when for the same costs you can switch 10 old pieces for 1 new which performs better.
Balance is needed - if it's too late all the customers are long gone but if too early - you inject too much money (all the new and shiney stuff is overpriced) and can't get a reasonable return which leads either to bankrupt or shrinking staff / support etc - customers leaving.

[Dregek]

IIRC

the reason ccp isnt using multiple cpu blades to run one node is python doesnt support multi-threading cpu's its one stream using one cpu.

obviously they can use multi-core blades and split the resources but it still doesnt eliminate the lag experienced in-game

SOL Blades - These are the workhorses of Tranquility and are the primary focus of our ongoing work. The cluster is divided across 90 - 100 SOL blades which run 2 nodes each.

* Node - a single EVE server process. This is the lowest level of granularity within the cluster.
* Dedicated SOL blade - These are SOL blades that we dedicate to one system only. Systems such as Jita, Motsu and Saila reside on these. They run two nodes like any other SOL blade, however the second node is idle and does not load any solar systems.

unless they can fix this its not going to matter how good the equipment is or isnt the code eve uses is limited on resources it can use.

[R0ze]

python doesnt support multi-threading cpu's

True ... they should switch/port to Jython or something

But as you yourself quoted you still can solve some part of the problem with hardware - instead of the running more that one node (Eve system) on a single SOL blade and the manual "reinforcement request on forums" use the "Jita approach" for every solarsystem - as it looks a single dedicated blade can handle ~1k players (I imagine majority would be happy with such numbers / scale at least for some time). The multicore hardware and virtualisation just allows you to decrease the harware amount versus having a physical unit for each system. Of course its a big waste as large part of the universe prolly on average have 1-2 players online per system.

.. and of course this all is simplified blabbing about some core problems

[Tyrone]

You do realize the people that work on Incarna are pretty much a separate team? Just like the 2 years of work on graphical updates for trinity were a separate team. I just hope that run that shit on different nodes.

[Murr]

You do realize the people that work on Incarna are pretty much a separate team? Just like the 2 years of work on graphical updates for trinity were a separate team. I just hope that run that shit on different nodes.

Of course they are a seperate team. It's just that there isn't any team for the other stuff. :P

[Dregek]

True ... they should switch/port to Jython or something

ccp wont do it any time soon i think recoding all of the server code from python would take the best part of a year with all their coders working on it to recode and debug it + fix the myriad of bugs currently in the game & not to mention the server downtime to upgrade it, while i would love to see it happen & both ends (server & client) support multi-cpu/gpu/monitors i dont see ccp putting in that kind of resources.

[R0ze]

recoding all of the server code from python

Of course it was just a fun note .. as Jython kinda allows you to compile and run the Python code in JVM that way kinda exploiting Javas advantages. Then again non-native things are usually forked up.. somewhat like anouncing a Linux/Mac client while actually it's just windows version running under Wine..

[EveHermit]

If CCP can get it right, I personally like the idea of Incarna. Increased interaction between players (especially within corporations and alliances) should add to the social aspect of the game. It adds to the all-encompassing feel of EVE, and will hopefully bring in new players. I just hope CCP stick with it to a point where it is polished and seamlessly becomes part of the game, instead of an obviously unfinished feature stuck precariously off the side of the main game.

I will try to ignore their track record and remain optimistic...

[Malaclypse]

If CCP can get it right...

Sadly that's already the biggest obstacle for the Incarna-DUST-project to be successful; CCP.

[whatever dude]

there is no easy fix for lag, once they find a way (if any) to allow multiple core/blades to run a single node/system it will clear it up for the most part but it will just set a new higher blob numbers.

Ideally eve's servers should be dynamic load I:e if jita has 1500 people in it and suddenly 1000 more want to join local a second blade could come in on the fly then drop out once numbers subside

Throwing hardware at lag isn't an optimal approach. Their hardware is already humongously powerful, far more than needed to run a space sim. They should be able to handle some 2-10 times more entities than they can now. (where our definition of "handle" determines where in the "2-10" range we land - but who wouldn't accept, for instance, once-per-second updates on drone positions in exchange for a smoothly running battle?)

"higher blob numbers" - what's acceptable? 1500? 3000? At some point we're good to go, right?

the reason ccp isnt using multiple cpu blades to run one node is python doesnt support multi-threading cpu's its one stream using one cpu.

The load shouldn't be in the python script. If it is, the offending code should be moved to C/C++ modules. (not a big deal.)


That said - guys, back to throwing hardware at the problem, it's not the way to go. Neither is revamping architecture to a multiprocessor friendly design. That'll only give us 2-4x performance improvement, more or less.

[Pripyat]

Hardware isn't the issue. EvE was perfectly able to handle 800-1000 People on Grid Pre-Dominion with the Hardware it had.
Theres something with the Dominion-Code and/or -features that changed this, so it's pretty much a software-issue. Some people suspected the new features of the Fleetfinder to be related to this , but nobody outside CCP knows for sure.

The best project that might help is the Fleet-AI Zulu was talking about, probably helping quickly deploying power to stressed Nodes.

[whatever dude]

...but nobody outside CCP knows for sure.

...And probably they don't either. The recent lag article on EVE tribune said, "The fact that CCP hasn't even figured out what they did to break the game's playability with Dominion speaks to the necessity for reworking things so that all the code is deliberately integrated and works properly." The implication here is that identifying the problem area is trivial compared to fixing it. That's typically not the case. In 9 cases out of 10, the "fix" once a problem is identified is trivial. What Finn* (tribune article author) might not appreciate is that the process of identifying the problem is 99% of the solution, and is friggin' hard. (okay, 9/10 isn't 99%, sue me.) It does help that we know whatever caused it was recently introduced, however.

I'm gonna throw some words at this over on the uncensored forum, just for fun.

* - Finn seems to have a good handle on things in general.

[Dregek]

while i agree that throwing hardware at the situation isnt an optimal solution, the game should encourage non-blobbing gameplay but it doesnt and if ccp wish to continue to tag eve as a "sandbox" they cant really do it either and i dont know of any way to discourage blobbing. Bringing it back to the coding & hardware issue, there is going to be a point where ccp have no choice but to upgrade to a more flexible code failing do so could stagnate eve's progress not to mention increase the running costs of the server farm.

The technology that computer & servers runs on has completely changed since eve came out and while ccp have taken steps to keep python working in the newer hardware era, its a plaster on a wound that isnt getting smaller and yet ccp's is pretty backwards beyond the graphics engine. For me the best step forward to alleviate the short term issues is dynamic loading on the blades to allow spontaneous response to an escalating fight.

Incarna has good potenial for an increased social aspect espcially within a corp & alliance standpoint and if ccp add new hardware escially for it i see no reason for it to be a step in the wrong direction. Dust will be the first step into a untapped market if it works or not only time will tell

[whatever dude]

We're only disagreeing on a minor point. You're suggesting improving coding and hardware, while my gut tells me the hardware's already adequate.

Perhaps I shouldn't be so quick to dismiss node migration.

And I believe we should be able to blob to our heart's content. But that's just me.

[Dregek]

i agree the hardware is adequate if the code can exploit it properly which it currently cant

[whatever dude]

(We're just chatting now.)

I love the idea of doing something as efficiently as possible, and part of that is using the available hardware to capacity. It chaps my ass to think that most of the Tranquility blades are just sitting there. ick. First instinct is to start decomposing the app into schedulable entities and start throwing chunks of processing onto the available cores.

I've learned over the past few years, though, that this can be a bad thing. Turning code concurrent, no matter how carefully, obfuscates funtionality. It also introduces control flow/synchronization overhead, but despite how much university classes hammer on Amdahl's Law, that's not a problem in most real life situations. (Unless you're using OpenMP or some such, in which case you might as well get a lobotomy anyway.) You just pick the appropriate granularity for the processing chunks. The real problem is that our brains work sequentially, and we more efficiently internalize sequential algorithms. Once we turn a set of operations concurrent, we're essentially giving up on any opportunity for further conventional algorithmic optimization. If we didn't see an optimization before we splat the code, there's virtually nil chance we'll recognize it after we mangle it into jobs or threads or whatever.

The sad fact for people who like threading is that algorithmic optimization is almost always more effective than concurrency optimization. Sucks, too, because that means you have to hunt down the system owner or wade through the code and build up a block diagram instead of just magically waving the concurrency wand over it all. It's never documented and the owner inevitably has better things to do than talk to you about it.

Still. What are we talking here with Tranquility, something like 10% duty cycle? Roughly 90% is sitting idle, at least, right? gah.

[Dregek]

Still. What are we talking here with Tranquility, something like 10% duty cycle? Roughly 90% is sitting idle, at least, right? gah.

this is exactly my point, the hardware isnt being exploited because the code is unable to use it and this comes back to my early point of dynamically loading the nodes to meet demands of the server, this also have a knock on effect of ccp not needing to have as many "live" blades as it currently does but blades that are idle and using little power or resources to maintain but can be brought online if/when needed and added to a node on the fly.

The current situation of requesting a node reinforcement via petition and being enacted at DT is terrible and has no margin for error. IMO it should be a node reaches 95% capacity and a second blade is brought online to move other systems to the new blade allowing the current blade to focus on the main fight and the ability to add secondary (slave) nodes to help in processing the systems data

[Securitas]

Whatever dude, you should seriously apply for a job at CCP, if you don't already have RL commitments. I say this with complete seriousness...you seem like you know what's going on and what needs to happen. You'd have my vote at least.

[whatever dude]

I am seriously considering it. Did I not make that clear? I'm a bit in-between gigs right now, I was trying to figure out whether there was a real need, is all. Also whether it would make sense for CCP. We'll see what happens.

[SolarKnight]

ITT more bitter faggots complaining that the sky is falling/ccp is dying just like after every big nerf/unwanted feature?

[Securitas]

ITT more bitter faggots complaining that the sky is falling/ccp is dying just like after every big nerf/unwanted feature?

:O don't be so mean solar.

[Dregek]

ITT more bitter faggots complaining that the sky is falling/ccp is dying just like after every big nerf/unwanted feature?

on the contrary, ccp as a business is vibrant and increasing in size rapidly. the only issue is eve is creaking

[Quesa]

So is Incarna only WIS or is there some other stuff that it's going to bring to the table. I'll admit I really haven't been paying attention.

[Murr]

So is Incarna only WIS or is there some other stuff that it's going to bring to the table. I'll admit I really haven't been paying attention.

It's just WIS.

[SolarKnight]

Well, it wont kill EVE, especially if the subscriber number is still rising.

Sure there are plenty of bitter vets that just station spin or log on to swap skills/talk to mates, but its very possible that will always be the case.

Not everyone will use Incarna, at this point I am undecided, but its there if i get bored or want to do something different.

Now wether or not it is worth them throwing a massive amount of staff at it to get it completed and out the door, is open to debate. But thats just how software companies work. If Incarna is stunning, and then in 18 months CCP suddenly transform all the existing features into amazing finished and polished versions of themselves, then everyone here will likely be cheering.

Also reading that article, they have teams still trying to simulate and test fleet fights to identify the lag they unleashed with dominion/tyrranis, everyone screams that they should test their stuff more thoroughly but like they say time and again, you cannot pick up every bug or defect until a product is live, especially on a product like eve since its so large and complex. Thats why you have beta testing normally to try and pick up the bugs that the testing team missed.

The other problem is that they have no way of testing the software on a server the size of TQ until it hits TQ, because Singularity is just not the same size, its smaller and built for smaller user numbers. Yes in theory they should be able to fix the lag and pick it up before hand, but realistically they just cant.

[Aurora148]

incarna started out as a great idea, and i liked it a lot, but that was over 2 years ago, we got our first glimpses of the engine and some dudes walking about in a station 1.5 years ago,

since then the only thing that we have seen come out the development of incarna is this (rather pretty) video:



throwing loads of extra devs at it is historically ccp's way of making things work (Trinity, Apocrypha) but this is just taking so long i dont see how the end product could possibly justify gimping the actual game's development for the next 18 months.

[Securitas]

Though lag is still a huge problem and not to distract from that, I think Incarna/D514 are both immensely cool ideas with a lot of promise. I have a certain fascination with eve as a "complete sci-fi universe" where you can interact and eventually do everything. PI/Incarna/D514 all help with that, but I do agree that fleet warfare is the most important part of EVE and they don't make up for that.

[R0ze]

since then the only thing that we have seen

Also this:






p.s. imo that your linked vid is more related to vampires..

[Aurora148]

p.s. imo that your linked vid is more related to vampires..

the development of incarna lays the base for the sparkly vampire mmo, they will run on the same engine.

[Dregek]

the first iteration of Incarna will be shit much like fw is but it has a lot of potential if they does leave it to rot like fw

[Propz]

Incarna will be amazing for EVE, however I believe CCP have their priorities fucked.

I just get this sense with CCP that they have no way of tracking bugs or putting a log on what's an escalated bug and what isn't. I get that strong feeling that they're still running with the small shop mentality in that when there's a problem, the ticket is answered with post-its and carried over to the person who can "fix" it. This information feels as though it's ONLY tracked through the petition system and that when a petition is closed, as is the problem... fixed or not. This here is speculation, but I'm sure I'm not the only person who feels this way when dealing with them.

So, CCP's prioroty 1... fix your QA/Support/Internal Tracking structure. I mean, I imagine when asked... What do your developers actually do, CCP doesn't have an answer... "He's this cool dude who can kick my ass in fooseball, but I don't know what he's done this week in terms of workload". A dynamic prioritized way to track workload and audit your workers.

While this is something CCP may never have wanted as an internal work environment (the big corporation mentality), they shouldn't have made a game which they are competing with the likes of blizzavision, NCSoft and bioware etc... who all could produce a fully functional, WIS Spaceship game within a year or two with less bugs and a better support and tracking system.

You need an internal Wiki that the public doesnt have access to, a work ticket tracking system outside of the petition system and a team who internally just plays EVE to test out the bug. Their job is to see if they can recreate it, they are not programmers, they are people who are paid to hang out and test the game... Maybe the CSM can be hired on as an official job and it's a temp position that the players vote on. Then they'd actually be of use...

1. Pull in the troops and work on the current game for 3 months of focused bug fixing.

2. The people who aren't bug fixers work on things they can. Graphics people work on fixing graphics or improving current graphics. In 3 months of serious work, you should be able to re-model more than one single fucking battleship.

3. Web people, put out some new forums... 3 months is not a stretch to put out some functional and decent forums.

4. Data people start fixing rockets, the Demios and so many other imbalances. They can add 1 number to each ship which needs re-balancing. If it doesn't work... ok... these kinds of changes can be reverted. CCP is afraid to change the damage numbers because as soon as they do one thing the players ask, the playerbase will think that they have some kind of power and outcrys for fixes in the future will be louder and whinier. This shouldn't stop CCP from fixing known and documented imbalances... rockets... hybrid turrets...

But you're talking about incarna...

Sadly the game EVE is not ready for incarna and the current player base has no faith in CCP that they'll truly focus on bug fixing. IMO, CCP needs to pull in the troops who are working on WIS and do some serious damage control. Put the entire development team, including the WIS/Dust (not the asians, the ones in Iceland) people and spend 3 months of production focusing on bugs. Clean up the UI a little... doesn't need to be perfect, cause we all know what CCP's vision of perfect is.

The purpose of Incarna has been transparent and CCP hasn't kept it a secret. It's primary purpose is to gain subscribers quickly. However, their greatest mistake was not improving on the current aspects of the game.

For instance, how shitty does that video look with the archaic Neocom and boxy, outdated chat windows. In terms of the interface, EVE made a lot of improvements with PI. There's a lot of components there that work quite well where some aspects are well animated and are extremely smooth. This should have been priority one. Again, think priorities here... One of the biggest frustrations of EVE is not learning it, it's getting over the jacked up interface and lack of it's intuitiveness.

This should have been CCP's focus before pushing out Incarna.


EVE was/is built off word of mouth. Right now the taste in the mouths of the current player base is sour. CCP needs to fix this first or else in 18 months, there will be a better game along. CCP has a successful base, but this base can easily be imitated and replicated to put out a game very similar.

CCP wants more of the "WoW" RL iskies...

However, imagine a Fantasy MMO RPG where you trained up your daggers, your cloaks, your boots of speed +4... etc. Then, put it on a single shard with conquerable lands and territory then add a few dungeons and PVE were combating nomadic roaming camps and herds.

Dear CCP,

You've created a product you can build on. A canvas so to speak, now build on this canvas and improve it. Have a "new feature" team hired on. Don't try to re-invent your game unless you have an entire separate team who doesn't take away from what the current EVE is.

Then, delay Incarna for 3 months and do some serious, heads down bug fixing and current UI/Feature improvement... not addition.

[HandofSatan [banned]]

who all could produce a fully functional, WIS Spaceship game within a year or two with less bugs and a better support and tracking system.

You just said NCsoft could do this.

You have never played an NCsoft MMO, I take it. It took them five years to allow you to change the colors on your powers. I really wish the people who over-complain about EVE with such histrionics would go play a Cryptic, Turbine, NCsoft or SoE MMO for a while. It would help improve their griping and make it more realistic.

[Propz]

You just said NCsoft could do this.

You have never played an NCsoft MMO, I take it. It took them five years to allow you to change the colors on your powers. I really wish the people who over-complain about EVE with such histrionics would go play a Cryptic, Turbine, NCsoft or SoE MMO for a while. It would help improve their griping and make it more realistic.

When I brought up NCSoft, I was referring to their ability to pump out video games. Their support lacks, I was there for the Aion debacle. While the game lacked support, it was rather well developed and pretty polished. They failed on game mechanics and is not their first game to horribly fail on in terms of poor mechanics and support. Aion was a polished game on release. Everything (short of sieges) worked.

As for "Over Complaining"... I'm not. I just used a lot of words to express my pov on where I think CCP should go. Am I right? Who knows, but you can agree or disagree.

[HandofSatan [banned]]

They pump out shitty games, just like Cryptic, Turbine, SoE, etc. Saying that you wish CCP was more like these developers would be CCP taking another step backwards. Bioware hasn't even released their first MMO, let alone shown that they will be adept at it. Other than comparing CCP to Blizzard, you can't really compare CCP to another MMO dev and say "be more like them" because CCP is better than every other major MMO dev, heh.

[Vinata]

You just said NCsoft could do this.

You have never played an NCsoft MMO, I take it. It took them five years to allow you to change the colors on your powers. I really wish the people who over-complain about EVE with such histrionics would go play a Cryptic, Turbine, NCsoft or SoE MMO for a while. It would help improve their griping and make it more realistic.

Changing the color on powers wasn't really an issue or highly sought after thing. I never heard it brought up until City of Villains' release.

[Dregek]

i like the idea of Incarna i just dont like the fact they have 70 devs on it and literally 0 fixing bugs or generally cleaning house on current eve features, while yes im sure more than half of devs on Incarna are graphics related and other none coding related surely keeping your current product moving along in regards to bug fixing and other issues is something any & all mmo devs should be doing?

[Hratli Smirks]

They pump out shitty games, just like Cryptic, Turbine, SoE, CCP, etc.

Everyone who plays EVE is going to agree that CCP should be making fixing all the broken shit their priority. CCP evidently doesn't agree. We EVE players see spaceships as if it should be CCP's central focus, and CCP sees spaceships as but one part of a larger Science Fiction multi-game MMO universe, with DUST and I suspect other game ideas in the works to build on that.

I'm just not sure how these other sci-fi MMO projects are going to fare if the foundation is cracking. While I think EVE would survive the failure of DUST, I don't think DUST would survive the death of EVE.

[riverini [banned]]

Everyone who plays EVE is going to agree that CCP should be making fixing all the broken shit their priority. CCP evidently doesn't agree.

I understand your point, but i find hard to put 100 on your employee to look for a needle in a haystack, a competent manager can only put x amount of resources into tackling an issue that affect a minor chunk of the playerbase (1200 users from a pool of 50k on a concurrent sunday for example)

i made a post about the need to focus Incarna and manage to integrate it into non-NPC Elements.
http://www.kugutsumen.com/showthread.php?6658-INCARNA

As an advertiser i can attest the value of the so called "Human Factor" to create an empathy towards x or y issue.
e.g.: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GURvHJNmGrc <---- The clown it's there and it's for that very same reason.

Motivation is the main factor i see Incarna as a Plus.

I'm just not sure how these other sci-fi MMO projects are going to fare if the foundation is cracking. While I think EVE would survive the failure of DUST, I don't think DUST would survive the death of EVE.

the day eve start crackling, that day u will see EVE going F2P and micro transaction shit... which is basically what DUST is planned to be.

Writing that last line i just got a Chilly feeling on my back thinking how easily some elements of the incarna stuff could be turned intro a micro-transaction business model...

[Mr Coloredshirt]

As an advertiser i can attest the value

Wait what the shit you're an adult?

[riverini [banned]]

Wait what the shit you're an adult?

Yeah, am a Creative/Art Director for a consumer/electronics company in real life, how about you?

[HandofSatan [banned]]

Changing the color on powers wasn't really an issue or highly sought after thing. I never heard it brought up until City of Villains' release.

City of Villains release was in 2005 though, so that's about five years? Nerds on the CoH forums were banging on about it quite loudly when I played.

Regardless, I can't find a single MMO that even attempts to make 300vs300 playable, let alone some of the higher numbers that have occurred in fleet fights. That they even got that working at all in Apocrypha is a wonderment unto itself. Much of what the playerbase demands from CCP are things that no other developer has even come close to doing with any success at all.

[Dregek]

City of Villains release was in 2005 though, so that's about five years? Nerds on the CoH forums were banging on about it quite loudly when I played.

Regardless, I can't find a single MMO that even attempts to make 300vs300 playable, let alone some of the higher numbers that have occurred in fleet fights. That they even got that working at all in Apocrypha is a wonderment unto itself. Much of what the playerbase demands from CCP are things that no other developer has even come close to doing with any success at all.

no other mmo in existance is anything like eve tho and ccp have pushed out the pr as such, the line "reap what you sow" comes to mind they have made such a song and dance about it thats its now what the community expects of them. read my blog on here if you want, its probably been poorly wrote but my first ever blog.

[Propz]

They pump out shitty games, just like Cryptic, Turbine, SoE, etc. Saying that you wish CCP was more like these developers would be CCP taking another step backwards. Bioware hasn't even released their first MMO, let alone shown that they will be adept at it. Other than comparing CCP to Blizzard, you can't really compare CCP to another MMO dev and say "be more like them" because CCP is better than every other major MMO dev, heh.

Please point to where I said I wished CCP were more like those other developers.

As I remember, without going back and reading through what I typed, I mentioned other developers being able to push out code and launch a game, I said nothing about them being superior.

City of Villains release was in 2005 though, so that's about five years? Nerds on the CoH forums were banging on about it quite loudly when I played.

Regardless, I can't find a single MMO that even attempts to make 300vs300 playable, let alone some of the higher numbers that have occurred in fleet fights. That they even got that working at all in Apocrypha is a wonderment unto itself. Much of what the playerbase demands from CCP are things that no other developer has even come close to doing with any success at all.

Aion did 300 v 300 very well to the point where there would be upwards of over 2-3000 in the abyss fighting over siged castles. Was it fun? not really... Laggy as hell and due to a memory leak on launch had crashing issues. This was patched within a month of launch then they did a graphics patch within 4 months of launch that further enhanced large siege warfare in Aion. too bad the rest of the game sucked and nobody stuck around for the grind fest.

Now, something you seem to forget is what CCP advertises and what players demand. Anyone who has been in a fleet lately (last couple months) will attest to constant gate lag and poor, overall system performance. Far worse than that was with the launch of Dominion. The current state of 0.0 is pretty rough as is empire where the last mission I did in a wasn't much better where waiting ~2 seconds for weapons to respond is kinda retarded. All my friends in null sec do nothing but complain about the lag, how fleets while running away from enemies who out number them, will get caught due to the traffic control and lose a ship. Yeah... I know... spam through...

These are in fleets of 20-40 people. Not large cap fleets... small roaming gangs. We're talking 50-100 in a system and the game is unplayable.

This isn't what we're demanding... this is what has been sold to us.

[Hratli Smirks]

I understand your point, but i find hard to put 100 on your employee to look for a needle in a haystack, a competent manager can only put x amount of resources into tackling an issue that affect a minor chunk of the playerbase (1200 users from a pool of 50k on a concurrent sunday for example)

Fleet lag affects those 1200 guys in XX-X and basically every fleet and gang fight on down. Also, if you spend a lot of time talking up the 0.0 as the crown jewel of your "emergent gameplay" advertising campaign, it shouldn't be a complete shitbox. Basically without 0.0 EVE has to rely on station games and mission running to grab headlines