Fuck me there's a lot of wrong in this thread
Fuck me there's a lot of wrong in this thread
Because the "problem" CCP wants to address is specifically drakes as the mainstay of 0.0 blobs????Originally Posted by RansomList
Nerfing the Drake because it's one of the few counters to AHAC and being newbie friendly is a serious mistake on CCP's part. Why invest all the effort in nerfing a perfectly good ship that is within it's role as a stepping stone between cruisesr to battleships. And fix some of the other glaring problems namely lag. Drakes are not godmobiles but a good solid ship that can be countered.
BS gangs are more than viable against both drakes and ahacs as CVA and SoT have shown btw
Brain fart incoming...
Never mind people, on second thought, it was a really bad brainfart.
[Arrador] possesses a considerable understanding of ship configurations, strengths and weakness. He gives clear and purposeful instructions, is good at taking advantage of the fleet-composition he's dealt, and never loses sight of the main goal: fun. This, paired with an excellent tolerance for strong drink gives him an almost Churchillian capability to win, despite being completely pissed on booze most of the fleet operation.
I want the Drake nerfed because it is hands down too good and a solid choice in damn near every situation in the meta at the moment. Its an all rounder with no glaring weaknesses.
Most people want the Drake nerfed because there are a lot of Drake blobs in 0.0 exploiting that tank, acceptable DPS and missile range and thats the only thing/situation they are thinking about; that and the 'new' players flying them. Drakes are cous cous, you can eat it with fucking anything, you cant ruin it by being a poor cook but its bland on its own.
I love how this thread has shaped up
Faction BS, some BO, arguably Marauders. Would be nice to have some comparable dual bonus equivalent as a t1 BS though; Imagine that Deviant art Minmatar BS with a Proj/Missile damage bonus and a web range or strength bonus selling at a new 'tier 4 BS' price.What tweaking/giving the other races EWAR bonused battleships?
Not Dead, Just Sleeping
nope. gank BS, LR hacs/machariels.
The drake is too good to be true. You shouldn't keep an overpowered ship overpowered just because a newbie can use it easily, there's plenty of other things they can use and still learn how to die gracefully in eve, eve online.
Which happen to work against lots of things funnily enough. They aren't some kind of kryptonite to Drakes.
Not Dead, Just Sleeping
so? they work well against drakes, drakes aren't invincible. it also shows BS aren't obsolete, which some people in the thread are whining about.
countered by its lag generation ability? Obv we're talking about in numbers here, nobody thinks they need rebalanced for 1v1, 5v5 or whatever.
I think the discussion has run far afield. The fact that ccp mentions server load on missile spam shouldn't be discounted. If they fix the missile spam lag as part of the larger goal of fixing lag in general, then some of the other advantages of drakes become moot. Note, that's ONLY if goes live as part of other server optimizations. In that environment other tweaks to the drake's profile might no long be need.But it would be really nice to see their logic for why it has suddenly become a critical issue, and why all the other balance concerns that interact with it aren't.
That ccp mentions the server load should be seen as the end all and be all of their reasoning for an adjustment. They know full well the community's love/hate relationship with drakes. The fact that they are becoming more popular is a growing cause for their alarm do to what they have already identified as a problem...missile spam lag. So by discussing other idea outside missile changes they are suggesting that perhaps they cannot easily make the missile changes and therefore must seek band-aides to the real problem...server lag caused by those missiles.
Now, ccp has stated missile spam causes server side performance issues. I've operated in heavy fleet action in the north and the south twice long term. Once each pre and post dominion. It's always been joked that the south performed so much better server wise then the north. (See: "We had so much fun, no lag" over in the NC attack Droneland post).
My question is how much is npc missile spam contributing to this? Consider a region of missile lobbers populated by missile boats shooting them all day? Everyone knows the north is lagged to crap. We all say it's cause they have to many farmers.
How much extra server load is being caused by the huge missile spewing rat spawns in these shiny new 0.0 complexes in mil5 upgraded systems?
well good thing you aren't an eve designer
"grrr this ship is TOO GOOD i want it to be garbage like 5/8ths of the other battlecruisers I made! Or failing that I want it to fall into disuse for 0.0 fleet warfare like the other two good ones due to the primacy of hacs"
the drake can get the shit owned out of it by battleships this isn't even the issue "no weaknesses" lmbo
here's another drakefleet liability: bombers
I counter your liability with lag!
Honestly people, you can't balance a ship that fights above it's weight class while in high lag. You have to fix the lag first.
-_-
A BC should get owned by a BS. Unless said BS happens to be AFK or a fucking tard.
ALL the BC's get owned by BS.
Yet for some reason you think the fact that the Drake fits a BS sized tank with good resists while spewing missiles to 80km with acceptable DPS and by your own admission is better than most of the other BC's and in gangs can take on HAC's which are a Tech 2 ships flown by much older characters...isn't OP and shouldn't be nerfed.
Fuck Drakes.
Nurf Draeks.
Not Dead, Just Sleeping
Isn't the battlecruiser class is to cruisers what a destroyer is (supposed to be) to frigates? A destroyer's job is (supposedly) to destroy frigates. It follows, then, that a battlecruiser's job is to destroy cruisers. It just happens that one of them is pretty okay at it while being an excellent target for logistics ships.
Because low skilled players should be ridden down like peasants by mounted T2 spaceknights in every circumstance right?
Counterpoint: Drakes utterly mangle logistics of any type.
Not Dead, Just Sleeping
Sorry bro, but this ones funnier:
Dear god, if only they had stayed in lessons, they would of learn of centrifugal force and circular velocity. You can see it when he flys off at a (near)tangent to the center of movement
I'd point out, again, that the drake is still the same drake that has been in the game forever, and the drakefleets are the same drakefleets that have been flown since before I started playing the game
Something has changed and made battleships perceived to be "obsolete." It isn't drakefleets, because battleship fleets own drakefleets. It isn't bombers, because there are things battleship fleets can do to combat bombers.
Drakefleets as the 0.0 ship of the line are a reaction to the rise of the ahac + guardians fleet. You can literally chart it to a specific instance in the PL/GSF/TEST/Cursed push into the South, in which a PL ahac fleet (which had merrily eaten like ten thousand sniper BS, target painting dominixes, etc) did not jump into like 250 Atlas drakes. This was the point in which 0.0 sov holding alliances decided to start using the drake as a counter to ahacs supported by logistics.
Now, basically we have two schools of thought here.
I, personally, believe that the problem lies with the ahac + logistic (+ fighterbombers destroying battleships) side of this equation since the drakefleet was obviously seized upon as a counter and battleships were abandoned for any circumstance in which the enemy may form up in ahacs.
You seem to believe that the drakes themselves are the problem because these fucking T1 noobs (supported by T2 logistics) are somehow able to challenge T2 pros (supported by T2 logistics) and this is simply insufferable.
its only a circular argument because the people I am arguing with are so dumb
I mean you guys are literally arguing that drakes + logistics are overpowered and bad for balance because anyone can use them while at the same time maintaining that ahacs + logistics (while arguably more formidable and with fewer weaknesses) are fine because fewer people have the skills to use them
This is EVE Online.
I dont think that anyone doubts that this is the issue. It's just that people like you and me see that sense of entitlement as ridiculous, whereas people like him believe he has "earned" his right to win.
Drakes are overpowered and have been for a long time, so there's always reason to change it.
But i just wish ccp would treat the fucking cause, not the symptoms.
Also nerf logistics.
I hear if you say it 3 times in a row, it becomes true.
I personally think the logistics are the bigger problem, only by alpha'ing them outright are they killable, a good set of scimi and basilisk pilots will glide through a fight without a scratch. Read: they can actually push the "NEED SHIELD" button.
Using ecm or neuting doesn't work as the ecm always dies within seconds, the neuting is irrelevant as the scimis will be 70km away and the basilisks will be reasonably far away with a near unbreakable cap chain.
And yet you want to nerf one of the better, easily available ships for doing that?
Logic does not apply to those wielding the nerf bat (or those wishing to wield the nerf bat).
I'd say that most of the time Logistics aren't primaried because the DPS ships are going down. Good Scimi pilots don't go down because they know how to dictate range and warp out if they get too much attention and the only good Basi pilot is the one training for Scimi/Guard.
If you aren't able to break a rep chain then most likely you didn't bring the right equipment. It's been shown that each fleet composition has it's own counter. BS fleets themselves have been able to counter both aHac and Drake fleets with relatively good efficiency (baring fitting the utility needed for the job) - it's just they don't perform AS WELL AS Drakes do under certain server conditions. Drakes-army's have made their entry into Eve because they perform the best under high lag situations and can be trained for in a relatively short period of time.
I still say that if server performance was at pre-Dominion levels, we'd be seeing more variety.
Seriously. Stop trying to change the rules all the time (ie compelling CCP to introduce more quirky one-off bug-ridden bullshit). Just focus on what is already known to be wrong and leave the rules (ships, mods, bonuses) alone.
I have always thought Drakes were too powerful. This is not about some perceived elitism and a desire to stamp on the plebians, they are just collateral damage in my war on all things Drake.
Do you believe in climate change?its only a circular argument because the people I am arguing with are so dumb
Fuck Drakes.
Not Dead, Just Sleeping
well yes I clearly misundersto-
There is no cognitive dissonance on my part, you really have misunderstood me.
You suggest i say one thing then make an entirely opposing statement.Your error is in thinking one statement excludes the other.
Perhaps you just dont believe me when i say that for me, the wailing and gnashing of teeth of newer players is just a side effect.
The fact that Drake blobs are a viable counter to AHAC's is a symptom not a cause.
Not Dead, Just Sleeping
Ok, you're just straight Trolling now.
[Arrador] possesses a considerable understanding of ship configurations, strengths and weakness. He gives clear and purposeful instructions, is good at taking advantage of the fleet-composition he's dealt, and never loses sight of the main goal: fun. This, paired with an excellent tolerance for strong drink gives him an almost Churchillian capability to win, despite being completely pissed on booze most of the fleet operation.
Three. Need to remove the positive feedback loop between greater drake numbers, greater lag, greater drake effectiveness compared to most other setups including all of their counters. Which ideally would be done without any hard balance changes, but
Drakes are overpowered~
They need to lose one missile slot and get two turret slots (lol) and get some useless bonus like most battlecrusiers have. a lot of BC's have one good bonus and one totally useless bonus, for example rep bonus on brutix is a total joke. Drake should lose the shield resist bonus and get something like a bonus to shield boost. Drakes really take the fun out of small gang because for a roaming gang they are super hard to counter. I for one can't believe its taken people this long to actually seriously discuss how overpowered the drake is.
You see two good ship bonuses and view that as a problem.
I see two good ship bonuses and view that as a goal.
"ugh drakes battlecruisers I can't mindlessly rape to death with my T2 ships with 4 perfectly good hull bonuses let's give them 1 real hull bonus and one shitty hull bonus so I can experience that "hard mode" pvp i fucking live for"
Tbh - there's an argument for everything and lets be straight, it doesn't take much.....
seeing as the cost of a aHac zealot is about the cost of 4 drakes you would think it would be 4x better of a ship and be able to mindlessly rape cheap t1 shit. A fleet of mostly hurricanes, myrmidons, or harbies
would get absolutely raped by aHacs yet drakes do not, so they should obv be nerfed
I'm sorry "hard mode" pvp is too hard for you
once again we find ourselves in the "low SP players should have no chance against high-SP characters" debate
and holy shit you dudes have all been stockholm syndromed into buying the eve online high sp entitlement thing
3 in a row, u are truly leet
I don't see it as being as much about high sp vs low sp. I think it is more about t1 vs t2. Drakes come off to me as being almost tier 1.5 ships
If you want a linear relationship between money/time spent playing and power go back to WoW. One of the great things about eve is that veterancy dosen't confer that much of an advantage, when compared to other MMO's. Yes, a vet in a tengu will rape a newb in a vexor. But 3 newbs in a vexor might do okay against a tengu, and god forbid if you run into a slavering gang of newbies led by a somewhat experienced FC. Compare that to WoW, where a lvl 80 can virtually instakill a thousand lvl 1s just by jacking off. Yes, time playing should confer an advantage, but 4x the cost != 4x the advantage.
Caeleste naves interretis gravissimas sunt
Not just win, but even compete in the first place.
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