[Provi] Set 0utbreak neutral/blue - May 19, 2010

[Viper ShizzIe]

Please do all make sure you have 0utBreak (that's a zero at the front) set neutral. Or blue if you prefer. They are indeed agreeing to the rules (perhaps not long term we shall see) but we can hope. They are coming to help us.

More surprises coming. *evil grin*

Well done, Aralis. It is nice to see respectable Alliances who have long followed nbsi turn nrds to aid us in these harshest of times.

It's good to know I am allowed to smack CVA in local, destroy billions in their assets, pirate in Providence and Amarr space then promise to be NRDS suddenly to find all is forgiven.

One could argue they are repaying us by helping us destoy the terrorists known as U'K and those they call "allies" that are squatting in Providence.

I don't think it's too kind to dismiss those willing to help our cause. They are still neutral I believe and will be operating independently for the most part probably.

I do wonder if they will be joining The Cit and joining our fleets or if we may join theirs?

Fair enough in a sense. But how about this: In return for agreeing to NRDS in the Empire and Providence - we are giving them what? We are letting the fight our enemies for us. Gosh big of us.

May I point out that the Holy Amarrian Empire itself makes no such demands to fly on it's behalf. FW (widely regarded by many as the centre of RP) lets people fly for the Empire and pirate at the same time!

The Amarr Navy also fleeted with the Minmatar to fight off the Sansha incursions. Then of course turned their guns on the Minmatar after driving off the Nation fleet. Alliances of convenience are as normal as good homemade Amarrian pie in the empire.

Very disappointed. So much for values we fought for. A shame to see history repeat itself, just that 3 years ago it was someone else doing such steps...

imho it is great that Aralis has success with aligning even former enemies. Now tell me El Torrent, what is your better plan and how is it going so far?

MILK Monk;

Ill be the devils advocate and will pre empt the obvious answer and say "what about not attacking AAA in the first place! Or if we are compromising on values, why not accept the peace deal with AAA after DG?!" :wink:

So, there its said, and pliz consider implications of what and how you say it

I know i don't play any more guys but i like to keep track of things...not quite sure what the problem is, people have been convinced to NRDS in providence, we've been trying to get people to do that since CVA originally moved into the area.

How is doing exactly what we have been aiming to do against our values? The only difference is the guys willing to do it now were tougher enemies then a lot of the people who agree. They agreed to our rules, if they stop following them, shoot them in the face again like we always have.

El torrent, if it was a repeat of the history of Ushra'khan, CVA would still have stations and while outbreak and brick squad etc assist us defending them they would be happily going about pirating Paxton etc and we would let them. But thats now how we roll, they agree to our rules or we shoot them. Just how it's always been.

easy answer at this moment. That is history. There were obviously bad moves, and I do my best to believe that all of that was done with some honest intentions. The only what we can take from this history now is: not to do simillary type of mistake again, ever.

Mistakes done:
- overestimating our strength and organisation. "Our" means all alies including CVA. This was simply blindness from our side.
- undersetimating reactions of AAA and underestimating SC in generall. Many pilots knew that SC can steamroll us, still we somehow did not take this into account when starting Catch campain.
- Our self-defined "Swiss-like" status blinded us, or we were just naive, when we thought that:
-- Providence is not worth to siege
-- Providence is too hard to siege

Actually, I think that we did one of the best propaganda maneuvers ever, when we bullied all enemies, maybe all in New Eden, that Providence is so poor that they should not even bother to siege it. 50 stations in one region is amazing treasure even that resources are poor.

Errors above made us to do following mistakes:
- not having enough allies, creating too many enemies
- not working on overall image of CVA in New Eden - weak propaganda
- we deluded ourselves when we thought how good guys we are, while too many of other groups in New Eden thought how arrogant and bad we are...
- start Catch campain
- decline AAA offer after D-G fall
- waiting how SC willl handle Providence siege

All of this is history. We cannot change it, so I say: let's keep discussing what went wrong and just look at it like some history-nerds so we can identify true issue and fix them for the future.

And ... yeah, I know that I have a gift to write posts or say something that can * too many people in one sentence. I sincerely appologize for this, but it is hard to handle and I (seriously) write many of my "serious" posts 3 or 4 times before I post them... when I post my 1st draft, then it is usually emo-drama-disaster... but my only intention is to "wake-up" people around me... please bear with me

What I like about EVE is that we can go emo, we can create deadly serious drama... but it is still only a game and when we switch our PCs off... nothing from this actually happened

@el torrent



Well for sure this is more motivating than reading your blogs on my iPhone while I am in the army just to see that a lot of Paxton people want to leave Providence and never come back and foremost not with CVA.

So I ask you. Do you now want to help us or doing your own thing. After you guys decided about that we can talk about 0utbreak again.

The blogs of your guys felt like a knife in my back after I lost stuff in your systems. It's okey to talk about mistakes but your propaganda guys, especially also EVOGANDA (which graphical work is amazing btw) brought the whole discussion to a point where I can't be quite still and shut up.
You PXF guys gone to far with that discussion. Really! While CVA did mistakes we also did well earlier and our space grew under the help of every pilot living there. And CVA also lost a huge amount of assets not only you guys. We also lost perspective, my corp for example was about to put up a new outpost which we now can forget about. We lost several bio to the enemy only in structures by upgrading systems only to loose em some months later. On top my members lost several more billions for ships to defend D-G, MH9 etc. Do I now stab a knife in your back or Aralis back? Just to stab something? NO I DON'T!

Back to topic. When I read your blogs correct, your leadership wants to move ahead to whatever but just not with CVA anymore. If that is true, why I am so surprised about your answer to make "0utbreak" neutral? Cause you search for reasons now why to abandon CVA even more instead of finding a solution and move ahead? We have to adapt, there was already a too long period where we didn't adapted. Only made enemies and no friends. CVA tries to change, are you too? Or do you sit on your laurels which our real enemies (UK) coated you around your head.

-speed

Pretty much this. There's a world of difference between allying with NBSI entities and letting them base out of your stations and shoot up your residents and neighbors.

For what it is worth I don't see any long term benefit to these arrangements, but I don't see drawbacks either.

i dont know the history here, but we need all the allies we can get atm.

We are now the pirates/freedom fighters fighting to remove the agressor from our lands.

or are we.

I personally think we are in a new cycle, a new era for which CVA could in fact redefine its self , as BOB did with becoming IT, and goons disbanding to join MM.

Everything we had is now lost, except our sense of purpose.

I know project deliverance succeeded, but we became decadent and complascent, and we lost it all in a heart beat.

Why not use this time to forget the old and bring out the new shining rebuilt CVA, with new goals, aims and new lamnds to conquer and claim for amarr and the empire.

I think we do that just now or are in the process to do it. So why not just calm down a bit and appreciate the work others do and help em with that? Instead of always search for reasons why something is bad? (not meant you with that Sollana but some posters before).

-speed

You can't prevent some people to be surprised, annoyed, or even leave because of this drastic changes speed.

CVA used to work only with honorable entities, and is now setting all kinds of scums blue to achieve its goal. This is not an easy move for everybody, gotta accept it, especially hardcore Amarr loyalists who find themselves "forced" (big word, but you know what I mean) to work with pirates and the likes.

Don't be too harsh at them, it's understandable.

Id understand if this was about mineral moons but what is problem with some reds getting killed by folks looking for fun? We can set them red later but now we have that many we can share some with others... dont be greedy lads! :wink:

I'm going to get flamed but...CVA in my time has worked with IAC, LFA, and Sylph. All three of these Alliances "pirated" outside of Provi but were nrds in Provi. 0utbreak, Br1ck Squad, and Hydra "pirate" outside of Prov but are nrds in Provi. Like Aralis said, we are in no place to demand other entities be nrds in the Empire/Providence, but they are. That says a lot about them in my book.

So ask yourself this, why even bother trying to get standings set with us? If they really wanted to pirate why not just fly down here and do it?

It's not about scum only. It's about growing up in your head. We are not 15 years old anymore. Sometimes you need to do compromises. Which is when Hydra accepts NRDS and we accept them as neutrals/blues.

While I understand the people that say, the changes are harsh, I don't understand the same people when they say that we abandoned our principles. We did not!
They accepted our rules and that was always everything we asked for. Now we should calm down a bit and accept that there are people out there that want to help us BECAUSE we did NRDS and BECAUSE we didn't accepted to be -A- pets!

That is what I want you RP guys to get inside yourself. The so called "pirate scum" did not get neutral/blue because we adapted to em but because we do our own thing and they respect that and want to help us.

When I started this game, I got killed by a famous pirate called "Keta Min". He was one of those camping lowsec gates with his Uber-Tempest and killing your hauler. I was a noob, I got destroyed over and over again and didn't even knew what happened and what tracking/oribiting etc. was.

Why is this important? I still hate pirates that go after easy kills only. CVA has its own special way to deal with that, its not only NRDS, it was also some special behaviour. CVA doesn't accept someone elses terms, we have our own and we still have them. That's why I joined.

But now compare Hydra to this. They are similar. They don't accept anyone elses terms, don't want to be pets. Trained their skills that hard until they were able to fight outnumbered and even win the fight. They got used to being an underdog with different rules.
Okey you say but they shot neutrals everywhere. Hell yeah they did, cause they saw us as another authority like NC / SC. But you can't deny the fact that they mostly kept gentleman's by doing this. They didn't asked for help from one of the big boys when the got outnumbered by us or even a neutral. They just accepted defeat and moved ahead, learning something from it. Just like we do.

So for me, those Alliances are similar to us. In all they do. We are together a dying species. All others NAP themselfs to hell. That's btw also the reason for our corporation name "Human Liberty".

Pandemic Legion. When they left their space and almost died I thought. Crap are those guys weak. After we did the same I think different. Actually it was very smart. Now see what they do. We could do the same with our small group doing massive damage while keeping our standards and own principles. That's the new CVA I would like to see. And as sooner as we change our mindset and accept that, as sooner we will getting strong again.

- speed

No one is forcing anyone to work with these guys. You most likely won't even see them that much. If someone is so angry about alliances agreeing to our nrds policy they don't have to join them. Facts are we aren't taking providence back without friends. If you want to sit in empire for the rest of your life, Amarr is right around the corner and we have plenty of war decs and you can ask aralis to make them mutual (if we are the ones decced, not in game atm to see the list of decs).

Sometimes it feels like there are agents here shooting down all attempts at gaining friends and trying to instill dissent when we do.

Our aim is to secure providence from pirates. We just got lots of people who used to pirate here to agree to stop. In fact not only have they agreed to stop but they also want to shoot at reds for us. In this way they are paying back their debt to our society, with the ships they lose fighting for us.

All this when we are at a low point. I wouldn't wanna mess with us when we are at a high point.

Eve is just a game. you don't have to be scum to be NBSI, or to ransom people. it's a legit play style. after all, don't we roleplay arrogant slavers?

IMHO, in game, cheating is the worst sin. i don't think Hydra etc. are cheats (like BoB was).

and even the worst sinners can see the light and repent.

A. I (and most who share my viewpoint) realize that CVA is changing, and that many think must change, to stay relevant and alive. We also know Aralis is doing as much as he can to get these unrepentant and unsavory new "allies" to agree to our most core terms, in defense of CVA's NRDS idealism. We may not like it, but we know the choice is clear, accept it, or leave. Such is personal freedom.

B. With that said, I really am saddened and dissapointed to see how much open and outright disdain and disrespect there is towards what Halarach wrote, and the ideals ensconced within.

It's not enough for some that our dwindling RP'ers and idealists and Old-School-CVA-values-players accept and live with the unrepentant pirates we're now allying with, we cannot even be disturbed at all or even mildly dissapointed about this turn of events, or we get called (as you all wrote) ignorant "15 year old probable spies who don't get that piracy and ransoming is "legit""?

With respect, yes EVE is just a game, we all know know that incredably obvious fact. That does not mean one cannot choose the difficult path, or have standards or ideals in how they choose to play the game, and CVA a long time ago choose two, EVE on hardmode NRDS/Anti-Pirate and Amarr-Loyalist RP (and one could add in no metagaming, which is not, in fact, "cheating", but is something we consciously choose not to do). When it appears that those ideas are suffering, some will not be happy about it. To demean those people who care enough to express that dissapointment as "15 year olds who can't grow up, probably are spies, and just can't see how legit piracy and ransoming are " is a * bad joke, tbh.

Just because we are forced by circumstance to compromise our ideals now to some degree (and respect to Aralis for doing his utmost to ensure that compromise is as limited as humanly possible), and work with people who would absolutely not have in the past, doesn't mean those who are unhappy (but acceptant and staying and fighting every day, like Halarach and myself) about those compromises are 15 years old, spies or lolRPfaggots as some of you like to think.

If you cannot understand why some folks might feel some dissapointment in blueing the Outbreaks of EVE, I suggest you may want to just ignore such comments, rather than reply and expose your own ignorance about what CVA was all about for the past 5 years.

From a somewhat outside perspective I think 'EVE on hardmode NRDS/Anti-Pirate + Amarr Loyalist RP + no metagaming' is totally possible and CVA don't need to compromise here. So the points of contention and compromise are what our allies are doing; they're following the KOS list after all since there are plenty of targets for them, and the anti-metagaming/singing deterrence of api registered voice comms. I don't know enough about the computer issues some have with other voice chats to comment but I can say that allying with Genos + Outbreak was helpful so far. Are they part of the Holder group or loyal Citadel citizenry, of course not. I do prefer them blue than red though :P Even announcing these unsavory alliances on galnet shouldn't be much of an issue since the ability to compromise, even just a little, is a recognized benefit to any alliance. The core values of CVA as I see them have not been compromised (again from my outside but longer term perspective). Obviously some disagreed and had to part ways but I think they will float around the Empire and someday return...

Please do consider discussing certain points in private. This is Kugutsumen material.

sure is

You know what, screw that, I refuse to be fearful of the Kun-*-man crowd.

I'm not giving out any Alliance secrets here, nor am I in a position any longer to KNOW any Alliance secrets. Everyone in EVE who has ever met Alistair should know by now I am passionate and fiery on the topic of RP and CVA Ethics. There is no suprises or news here.

I assure you my friend, if the Kun-*-man crowd wishes to take a little spirited debate about allies as a sign of weakness or division, they'll learn that mistake the next time we kill them. If Outbreak wish to take one hardcore RP'ers distaste (yet acceptance) over their past pirate ways badly, well.....So. Friggin. Be it. Somehow, I doubt they's be overly * tbh, probably proud of it matter of fact.

There is no private in the metagaming pool of EVE. My views are well known to any spy that actually does exist, as it only takes one * bitter dishonest or otherwise misreprented corpie to spill everything you say on a forum or in alliance chat. I'm not going to watch my words for the rest of time fearful that one of them may get reported to Kungustman or Scrapheap or EVE-O.

l o l

I don't even reply anymore tbh, I've given up on CVA being an RP alliance, all we get for trying to encourage it is insults, taunts, or being told to shut up.

Not my cup of tea to fight for that I have better stuff to do.

Many people should ask themselves why they write Amarr Victor in local btw.

Amarr Loyalist RP

I'd like to comment on this particular term and just take it to a meta level, because this holds some obvious things one can derive from the sole existence of the Empire.

The Amarr Empire has existed for some 3.000 years now. It has written a history of bloody conflict, civil war, oppression and aggressive expansion that would make Attila the Hun look like Attila the Nun.
It is a very conservative, monolithic entity that clouds its aggressiveness and cruelty in religious doctrine and deification of certain leadership people and the decisions they make. It uses this for crowd control and to "rightfully" conquer inferior populations. It makes this attractive to its people by declaring slavery legal and a divinely justified right.

Here come my assumptions:

Only by those rather aggressive moves and policies could the Empire sustain itself. Only by successfully doing so could it avert civil unrest and its own disintegration. Such a type of government is not ruled by trust alone (if at all), let alone by going to temple services each sunday. This system can only function if you systematically use every ressource available to further your goals and eliminate those that stay one step behind you to stabb you in the back. As you have divine right, you can declare almost anything rightful as long as you don't screw your tenants. I assume in its glorious past the Amarr Empire will have used every means to achieving its goals, and that includes in EVE terms
a) resetting friends
b) pnissing off allies
c) stealing sov
d) hiring pirates/mercs to disrupt the enemy
e) spying
f) assassinating key figures
g) wasting millions of lives in their "god dictated" wars
h) making a favourable propaganda war to let others look like losers

The Amarr Empire (well, as I see it) is a totally ruthless powerplayer, and the tone I get when reading stuff about it is oppressive, gothic and cruel. Much like the Human Empire in Warhammer 40.000 actually, if you pardon the comparison. The Amarr Empire may consider itself being "good" but it's definitely not "nice". It will hire all (and all means) who can do harm to its enemies and cloak those it hires in angelic raiments to see for all its people. If these angels get wasted so be it, if they get reduced in numbers all the better, because then they cannot lay claims on anything thereafter. It may just hire mercs to stay idle doing ship spinning or doing boring counter insurgency just so that the enemy cannot hire them for attacks.

Just like the Roman Empire they divide and rule. If one local baron gets kicked it's his failure but the Empire will survive. If one baron yells too loud the Empire will silence him with its other local barons and select the one who did best as the new champion, just making him the next target. The Amarr Empire does not rest its foundations on friendship. If it had, it would have fallen long ago.

So in my humble opinion any Amarr Loyalist RP should reflect this to some extend. The exact amount is of course left to the player, but it is very obvious that the entity CVA calls its patron is a totally ruthless bunch of warmongers and powerplayers that want to rule New Eden; at all costs.

CVA has made itself a part of this in its own frame of roleplay. And of course it does not grasp all this meta stuff I just mentioned. But it (i.e. "we") have to find a solution for a situation that does at this moment not favour us. So maybe the Amarrian Deity demands a new evaluation of options...

Now comes Al Pacino and his relevance to CVA and Providence:

"We will do it, inch by inch. We tear everyone around us and ourselves to pieces for that inch. We claw with our fingernails for that inch."

That basically says it all. Use all means and all resources to drive one's goals further and further. Do not let morality overtake your aims, you can deal with morality later if you have achieved what you wanted. And all of CVA wants its part of Providence back, the part its arch enemies and their patrons took from it. And these fnukkers just have to die, because they did so.

When the dust settles, reconsider your choices. Make new allies, excommunicate weak ones, install folks that made a name out of themselves and then divide and rule.

Sorry if this may just sound a bit pathetic, the feeling took me while writing this. These are just some considerations I wanted to mention and maybe hint at when speaking or thinking of how the Empire may see hiring pirates, reds and whatever to situationally further an important cause. I do know that many favour a more honourable approach to all this, but I was just stumbling over Loyalist RP. When clawing for an inch the one thing you do not want to wear is gloves made out of silk. You want an iron gauntlet.

As always, my 4 I$K
Andrew Gaspurr

Fear is not the correct word to use to characterise my post. I see it from the angle of common sense and alliance interests, but I guess those are both in the eye of the beholder. Nevermind.

[Sircussalot]

I can't wait till CVA kills me.

[Mr Coloredshirt]

Amarrian pie...

and goons disbanding to join MM.

wait wut?

[Arkady Sadik]

That must be a big slap across the face for many old CVA members :-(

When U'K was pushed out initially, they allied themselves with a number of "pirate" organizations (0utbreak, Establishment, a few others I forgot?) to defend 9uy. That failed, for various reasons, but they received a lot of smack for "allying" themselves with "pirates". When CVA was being driven out of Providence, and this came up as an idea - to find themselves some NBSI groups to work with - there were loud voices that CVA would never "stoop as low as U'K did". And now the exact same names.

Good luck to CVA on that path.

[cyberjunk]

CVA allying themselves with 0utbreak, just when I thought Aralis couldn't sink any lower. Also seeing the RP/non-RP guys clash is pretty funny.

[Forlorn Wongraven]

scagga laebetrovo

Happy to see him posting other things than petitions.

... long story ...

[Pripyat]

CVA allying themselves with 0utbreak, just when I thought Aralis couldn't sink any lower.

I was going to say the same thing about 0utbreak. 0utbreak blueing someone happens so rarely, CVA should feel almost honored. It's also quite different to the typical Corp-politics. Normally 0utbreak comes into a region to fuck shit up, trying to avoid big, laggy fleetfights and won't even bother blueing other corps/alliances.

[Murr]

I'm pretty sure the only reason they blued em was Hydra and their involvement in the region, which is fucking with the new provi bloc.

[hthen]

That must be a big slap across the face for many old CVA members :-(

When U'K was pushed out initially, they allied themselves with a number of "pirate" organizations (0utbreak, Establishment, a few others I forgot?) to defend 9uy. That failed, for various reasons, but they received a lot of smack for "allying" themselves with "pirates". When CVA was being driven out of Providence, and this came up as an idea - to find themselves some NBSI groups to work with - there were loud voices that CVA would never "stoop as low as U'K did". And now the exact same names.

Good luck to CVA on that path.

Difference is that CVA stays NRDS, and the entities turns NRDS.

UK turned NBSI, and had NBSI friends.

Quite the difference in execution.

And as Reash said;

Not quite sure what the problem is, people have been convinced to NRDS in providence, we've been trying to get people to do that since CVA originally moved into the area.

How is doing exactly what we have been aiming to do against our values? The only difference is the guys willing to do it now were tougher enemies then a lot of the people who agree. They agreed to our rules, if they stop following them, shoot them in the face again like we always have.

If it was a repeat of the history of Ushra'khan, CVA would still have stations and while outbreak and brick squad etc assist us defending them they would be happily going about pirating Paxton etc and we would let them. But thats now how we roll, they agree to our rules or we shoot them. Just how it's always been.

[Pripyat]

I'm pretty sure the only reason they blued em was Hydra and their involvement in the region, which is fucking with the new provi bloc.

Well of course, i'm just saying it's quite atypical for 0utbreak to A)Blue a larger Group and B)Blue people to probably join them in large (laggy) Fleetfights

[Arkady Sadik]

Difference is that CVA stays NRDS, and the entities turns NRDS.

Don't get me wrong, I was not trying to talk badly of CVA. It's part of realpolitik that some values get lost on the way. I do not know the exact terms of the agreement with 0utbreak, but as far as I gathered from the logs posted here, my observation that some of the "old-timers" are unhappy about this is not quite inaccurate.

As I said: Good luck to CVA on this path. It's not an easy one.

[Rovern Hashu]

Mostly Grr complaining actually. Like was mentioned it would be one thing if they were just reset with no strings attached but they agreed to our NRDS in Providence and Amarr space which is what we always require for resetting standings. If they decide to go back to what they use to do we just reset them red again. Nobody expects Outbreak to give a long-term commitment to our way of life.

[Tyrael]

I'm famous

I am not CVA but I tried to point out its not so bad and completely necessary. Getting Outbreak and Hydra to follow the huge KOS list is no small feat. I think they follow it because it is so huge. Also CVA has always had allies in the miltia anyway as they are each just one end of the spectrum of Amarrian RP.

[Butter Dog]

CVA seem to place hope in outbreak/hydra which isn't really founded. Outbreak and Hydra didn't want to change their relationship with them to assist them in a long-term sov war, ie committing capitals and grinding timers - they just want CVA to set up fights (which CVA are ultimately bound to lose) so they can dance around the edge of the battlefield or camp a pipe with their mach/vaga gangs picking up killmails.

In that sense, the only loser here are CVA themselves. Provi residents get a sov fight and win, outbreak/hydra dance around the edges getting killmails, CVA lose SBU's. It's a short-sighted move and CVA won't gain anything from it even in the medium-term.

[hthen]

Butter: we have never assumed anything of the sort with regards to Hydras/Outbreaks longterm commitment.

Atm they NRDS, like us, which is ultimatly what we want people to do.

Aralis wants to stay in the area, and with that in mind, bluing former reds that decide to follow NRDS makes sense/defo doesnt hurt...and is in line with how we have operated for years.

[Butter Dog]

Aralis stated "they are coming to help us" - if that didn't mean help you try to reclaim stations, then what did he mean?

[CCP Nozh]

I like to point out that UK is an NRDS entity.

[hthen]

Well, they (0utbreak) have always been red to us, but not around our area for a long time.

Now they are back to a certain degree, shooting our reds and following NRDS.

Thats helping us in my book.

[RansomList]

If Genos are NRDS I'll sell my lest testicle to medical science

[hthen]

Its not very hard to NRDS in Providence atm. 99% of the ppl in Provi beyond CVA+Holders are UK Squatters, so for the most part Id say NRDS in Provi is close to NBSI in practical terms.

If its on overview now, its most likely on our KOS list.

[Butter Dog]

Well, they (0utbreak) have always been red to us, but not around our area for a long time.

Now they are back to a certain degree, shooting our reds and following NRDS.

Thats helping us in my book.

http://genos.killmail.org/

Genos are not following NRDS.

[HandofSatan [banned]]

I went back five days on their killboard and did not see one neutral killed in Provi. Then again, there really aren't any neutrals in Provi anymore

U'K smacking about someone potentially not following NRDS is irony and lolz.

[Karn Mithralia]

YEAH BUTTER DOG MAKE US LOOK LIKE MORONS BUT I LIKE HIS NICK NAME DON'T WE ALL

[CCP Nozh]

http://genos.killmail.org/

Genos are not following NRDS.

LOL are you NRDS? if so where? Jove space?

[Suitonia]

Conducting diplomacy on a third party website is retarded. If a neutral believes they have been killed by Genos in error, then going to the CVA Diplomacy channel is the way to settle it.

[Garmon]

they just want CVA to set up fights (which CVA are ultimately bound to lose) so they can dance around the edge of the battlefield or camp a pipe with their mach/vaga gangs picking up killmails.

wat

Can you honestly say this with a straight face after the first two incidents when the r3 station came out of reinforce?

For the first time, we camped in 60 U'K + friends with 15 ( while killing 30 over the course of an hour ) to ensure CVA could reinforce the r3 station

On the second time, we came again, killed 30 and you were sent home again

The point I'm trying to make is that we are trying to help cva and we are getting a lot of fights out of it, we're not using their situation to try to find cheap ganks

Also NRDS isn't too bad, our killboard isn't as active as it should be though, this is our month while in sev3rance http://genos.killmail.org/?a=home&m=2&y=2010&view=kills

[CCP Nozh]

NRDS isn't bad for pvp but you just can't kill enemy neutral alt without them firing the first shot. I had more kills when i was provi and than now (NBSI)

[RansomList]

On a similar vein, standings reset for AAA Manny?

[pinoyzzz]

NRDS is Eve on hard mode (or stupid mode, if you prefer), but it does seem to give more good fights and killmails than NBSI if you're an alliance that doesn't roam or move away from your region.

[Arkady Sadik]

The biggest issue with NRDS is the absolutely enormous effort you have to put into the diplomacy and keeping standings updated. Most people you want to shoot will shoot you first anyhow, so it's not a big issue. But the "paperwork"... we have 2-3 people working full-time on that stuff, and we're only a small alliance with a limited area of operation. Not sure how many CVA has, but I can only imagine the amount of work it is / used to be.

[DarkMatter]

http://genos.killmail.org/

Genos are not following NRDS.

CVA seem to place hope in outbreak/hydra which isn't really founded. Outbreak and Hydra didn't want to change their relationship with them to assist them in a long-term sov war, ie committing capitals and grinding timers - they just want CVA to set up fights (which CVA are ultimately bound to lose) so they can dance around the edge of the battlefield or camp a pipe with their mach/vaga gangs picking up killmails.

In that sense, the only loser here are CVA themselves. Provi residents get a sov fight and win, outbreak/hydra dance around the edges getting killmails, CVA lose SBU's. It's a short-sighted move and CVA won't gain anything from it even in the medium-term.

:lol: Do the depths of your utter-fucking-stupidity know no bounds? Why are you so mad that Genos and 0utBreak are helping CVA that you're busting your balls to try and drive a wedge between them? Are all the failures in provi crying to you about having to dock up when one shows up in local? Are your intel channels that full of whinage?

[Butter Dog]

LOL are you NRDS? if so where? Jove space?

Are you being deliberately stupid? I was responding to the CVA guy who said "we are only friends with genos cos they're NRDS" - i personally don't care if they are NRDS or not

[Butter Dog]

:lol: Do the depths of your utter-fucking-stupidity know no bounds? Why are you so mad that Genos and 0utBreak are helping CVA that you're busting your balls to try and drive a wedge between them? Are all the failures in provi crying to you about having to dock up when one shows up in local? Are your intel channels that full of whinage?

I really could not care less if they are "helping" CVA, they're irrelevant from a sov warfare perspective. But I am pointing out the inconsistencies and contradictions in CVA's stance - CVA are my enemy remember, not genos or anyone else for that matter, they're the only entity I'm actually motivated enough to undock and kill

[Butter Dog]

wat

Can you honestly say this with a straight face after the first two incidents when the r3 station came out of reinforce?

For the first time, we camped in 60 U'K + friends with 15 ( while killing 30 over the course of an hour ) to ensure CVA could reinforce the r3 station

On the second time, we came again, killed 30 and you were sent home again

The point I'm trying to make is that we are trying to help cva and we are getting a lot of fights out of it, we're not using their situation to try to find cheap ganks

Also NRDS isn't too bad, our killboard isn't as active as it should be though, this is our month while in sev3rance http://genos.killmail.org/?a=home&m=2&y=2010&view=kills

look, lets be honest about this

first few times we were lazy and took the wrong ships (lol very close range bs), and had no counter for your mach gangs - we also didn't know you were working with CVA so we just werent equipped to deal with nanofag... now we do and I honestly (no offence) can't see it being an issue at all, and we weren't treating this as anything other than a skirmish, we've woken up a bit now and we'll pay it more attention

[Garmon]

they just want CVA to set up fights (which CVA are ultimately bound to lose) so they can dance around the edge of the battlefield or camp a pipe with their mach/vaga gangs picking up killmails.

The point I'm trying to make is that we are trying to help cva and we are getting a lot of fights out of it, we're not using their situation to try to find cheap ganks

look, lets be honest about this

first few times we were lazy and took the wrong ships (lol very close range bs), and had no counter for your mach gangs - we also didn't know you were working with CVA so we just werent equipped to deal with nanofag... now we do and I honestly (no offence) can't see it being an issue at all, and we weren't treating this as anything other than a skirmish, we've woken up a bit now and we'll pay it more attention

I guess you were just trying to troll regarding the first thing I quoted, also the only reason we used our gang formats because there wasn't any need for a change, what do you think will happen next ?

[Algey]

I have a feeling that Butter regards you as a one trick pony that will now suicide macs until you give up. The problem of course with fighting a small "elite" force is that they are much more capable of changing fittings to counter the prevalant fleet types. They are also much more able to both use those fittings, and in the case of Genos they are based close enough to form reactive gangs to whatever we are doing tailored against what we are using.

If we blob properly no type of fitting will help as you'll just get popped, but we can't just blob all the time meaning you're going to be a pain in the behind. In the end though you need to be able to take and hold stations, and without a significant power helping I doubt you can. It was that realisation that was hard for those of us who lost to CVA and their allies the last time, and it'll be interesting to see how CVA react to that themselves.

[Butter Dog]

We were in genos shoes for the better part of three years, roaming in smaller ~elite~ gangs racking up killmails. We've been there and done it and we had a great time.

But precisely because we have been there, we understand the limitations and how far it can get you. We watched Providence grow bigger and stronger despite our gangs, depsite some hilariously one-sided fights and a fuckton of killmails. And actually, I would argue Providence got stronger not despite such harrassement, but because of it - countering roamers prevented PvP minded Provi pilots from leaving, and kept FC's entertained. It is the glue which binded them together in combat and gave people a reason to undock other than to NPC.

That is why I believe it's a good thing to have people like outbreak and genos around - without that level of entertainment, people get bored and move on.

[RansomList]

Except Genos are much better than you at small gang and because the new tenants have nothing connecting them like the CVA pets did the space will be far less secure and defence gangs less integrated- unless daddy AAA gets involved to stop sov wawrfare.

[Algey]

Being better (and they are than our average) at small gang work doesn't mean that they will be taking Providence anytime soon. What happened with CVA et al is that they had to get better at defence and people learnt to work together. The same thing is happening in Providence now, however it is the complete opposite of what is meant to be happening.

Currently we don't need Manny to save us from sov warfare, but if we want to have resets and fight each other then that is a problem. From our point of view having to fight CVA isn't exactly a hardship for UK

[Butter Dog]

Except Genos are much better than you at small gang and because the new tenants have nothing connecting them like the CVA pets did the space will be far less secure and defence gangs less integrated- unless daddy AAA gets involved to stop sov wawrfare.

Genos are better than some UK at small gang warfare, yes. My corp have done the ~elite~ roaming gang thing to death over a long time, including CVA Provi and up north as part of Insurgency. So we know what we're talking about - the principal of fighting outnumbered and farming lots of killmails is something we've done for many years. These days, we're doing less of it, but we've evolved as a corp into something different (supercaps, POS networks etc). I think it's a process of evolution a lot of corps go through. Not better, just different. However we've been where genos are, which is why we understand the limitations of what they can do - and sov warfare isn't it.

[Team Dresch]

So "Genos are raping us, but at least they can't take our Sov! (That -A- gave us)"?

To be honest, the only people I saw UK gangs farming lots of killmails from in Provi were dumb ratters.

[RansomList]

Point to where in my post i say that Genos are going to take sov because they are good at small gang.

What i was inferring is that while CVA may have been kept on its toes to an extent due to Providence of old being a roaming mecca and as a consequence learnt how to manage home defence gangs etc... the new Provi holders wont benefit from that in the same manner because they lack any sense of unity or cohesion that CVA managed (please dont point to the obvious breakdown following sov warfare and invasion- this si essentially peacetime now) and are by and large making a generalization smaller corps/alliances than previously.

[Butter Dog]

So "Genos are raping us, but at least they can't take our Sov! (That -A- gave us)"?

To be honest, the only people I saw UK gangs farming lots of killmails from in Provi were dumb ratters.

Dumb ratters, uncoordinated gatecamps, fleets that weren't fit to counter us. Exactly the same can be said of genos. This isn't rocket science, we all know how nanogangs can be annoying and what their capabilities are. We also know they are nothing more than annoying, but if you fit to counter them they're also nothing more than expensive losses.

[Butter Dog]

Point to where in my post i say that Genos are going to take sov because they are good at small gang.

What i was inferring is that while CVA may have been kept on its toes to an extent due to Providence of old being a roaming mecca and as a consequence learnt how to manage home defence gangs etc... the new Provi holders wont benefit from that in the same manner because they lack any sense of unity or cohesion that CVA managed (please dont point to the obvious breakdown following sov warfare and invasion- this si essentially peacetime now) and are by and large making a generalization smaller corps/alliances than previously.

You don't build unity and cohesion overnight, but it is happening. We're already getting to know each other, work together better, and run in joint gangs almost every day - which simply didn't happen when everyone moved in. But lets get real -you don't need 6 alliances and 300 man fleets to counter a 5 man nanogang. The old provi's response to such gangs was to get together 100+ people and camp them into a deadend for three days, or something equally ludicrous.

Now, if Providence was quiet and didnt have Darkside, Outbreak, Genos etc running through all the time, or CVA not dropping SBU's, then we would get bored, reset each other, and shoot each other. But thats not happening because outsiders are keeping us entertained. That's why we're building the unity and cohesion that you talk about, and thats exactly why CVA and holders built unity and cohesion too - binding together to counter threats. These things take time, but there is a definate upward trajectory.

[PondDweller]

A zillion assholes will blue you while you're the visibly winning team. Only those with balls will blue you when you're losing.

CVA should notice the fact that their tons of fair-weather blues all crapped on them in their time of need and learn from it.

[Butter Dog]

what evar

[Raivi]

So I hear Providence is where all the cool kids hang out.

Why don't you want to play with us U'K?

[Viper ShizzIe]

So I hear Providence is where all the cool kids hang out.

Why don't you want to play with us U'K?

Because they know you're planning on building supercaps in their space :l o l:

[Hratli Smirks]

Butter Dog: Ushra'Khan is an elite PvP alliance