Originally Posted by AralisPlease do all make sure you have 0utBreak (that's a zero at the front) set neutral. Or blue if you prefer. They are indeed agreeing to the rules (perhaps not long term we shall see) but we can hope. They are coming to help us.
More surprises coming. *evil grin*Originally Posted by HellacioussWell done, Aralis. It is nice to see respectable Alliances who have long followed nbsi turn nrds to aid us in these harshest of times.Originally Posted by GrrIt's good to know I am allowed to smack CVA in local, destroy billions in their assets, pirate in Providence and Amarr space then promise to be NRDS suddenly to find all is forgiven.Originally Posted by Hellacouss
One could argue they are repaying us by helping us destoy the terrorists known as U'K and those they call "allies" that are squatting in Providence.
I don't think it's too kind to dismiss those willing to help our cause. They are still neutral I believe and will be operating independently for the most part probably.
I do wonder if they will be joining The Cit and joining our fleets or if we may join theirs?Originally Posted by AralisFair enough in a sense. But how about this: In return for agreeing to NRDS in the Empire and Providence - we are giving them what? We are letting the fight our enemies for us. Gosh big of us.
May I point out that the Holy Amarrian Empire itself makes no such demands to fly on it's behalf. FW (widely regarded by many as the centre of RP) lets people fly for the Empire and pirate at the same time!Originally Posted by BlipdoolpoolpThe Amarr Navy also fleeted with the Minmatar to fight off the Sansha incursions. Then of course turned their guns on the Minmatar after driving off the Nation fleet. Alliances of convenience are as normal as good homemade Amarrian pie in the empire.Originally Posted by El TorrentVery disappointed. So much for values we fought for. A shame to see history repeat itself, just that 3 years ago it was someone else doing such steps...Originally Posted by MILK Monkimho it is great that Aralis has success with aligning even former enemies. Now tell me El Torrent, what is your better plan and how is it going so far?Originally Posted by NidingMILK Monk;
Ill be the devils advocate and will pre empt the obvious answer and say "what about not attacking AAA in the first place! Or if we are compromising on values, why not accept the peace deal with AAA after DG?!" :wink:
So, there its said, and pliz consider implications of what and how you say itOriginally Posted by ReashI know i don't play any more guys but i like to keep track of things...not quite sure what the problem is, people have been convinced to NRDS in providence, we've been trying to get people to do that since CVA originally moved into the area.
How is doing exactly what we have been aiming to do against our values? The only difference is the guys willing to do it now were tougher enemies then a lot of the people who agree. They agreed to our rules, if they stop following them, shoot them in the face again like we always have.
El torrent, if it was a repeat of the history of Ushra'khan, CVA would still have stations and while outbreak and brick squad etc assist us defending them they would be happily going about pirating Paxton etc and we would let them. But thats now how we roll, they agree to our rules or we shoot them. Just how it's always been.Originally Posted by MILK Monkeasy answer at this moment. That is history. There were obviously bad moves, and I do my best to believe that all of that was done with some honest intentions. The only what we can take from this history now is: not to do simillary type of mistake again, ever.
- overestimating our strength and organisation. "Our" means all alies including CVA. This was simply blindness from our side.
- undersetimating reactions of AAA and underestimating SC in generall. Many pilots knew that SC can steamroll us, still we somehow did not take this into account when starting Catch campain.
- Our self-defined "Swiss-like" status blinded us, or we were just naive, when we thought that:
-- Providence is not worth to siege
-- Providence is too hard to siege
Actually, I think that we did one of the best propaganda maneuvers ever, when we bullied all enemies, maybe all in New Eden, that Providence is so poor that they should not even bother to siege it. 50 stations in one region is amazing treasure even that resources are poor.
Errors above made us to do following mistakes:
- not having enough allies, creating too many enemies
- not working on overall image of CVA in New Eden - weak propaganda
- we deluded ourselves when we thought how good guys we are, while too many of other groups in New Eden thought how arrogant and bad we are...
- start Catch campain
- decline AAA offer after D-G fall
- waiting how SC willl handle Providence siege
All of this is history. We cannot change it, so I say: let's keep discussing what went wrong and just look at it like some history-nerds so we can identify true issue and fix them for the future.
And ... yeah, I know that I have a gift to write posts or say something that can * too many people in one sentence. I sincerely appologize for this, but it is hard to handle and I (seriously) write many of my "serious" posts 3 or 4 times before I post them... when I post my 1st draft, then it is usually emo-drama-disaster... but my only intention is to "wake-up" people around me... please bear with me
What I like about EVE is that we can go emo, we can create deadly serious drama... but it is still only a game and when we switch our PCs off... nothing from this actually happenedOriginally Posted by speedcat
Well for sure this is more motivating than reading your blogs on my iPhone while I am in the army just to see that a lot of Paxton people want to leave Providence and never come back and foremost not with CVA.
So I ask you. Do you now want to help us or doing your own thing. After you guys decided about that we can talk about 0utbreak again.
The blogs of your guys felt like a knife in my back after I lost stuff in your systems. It's okey to talk about mistakes but your propaganda guys, especially also EVOGANDA (which graphical work is amazing btw) brought the whole discussion to a point where I can't be quite still and shut up.
You PXF guys gone to far with that discussion. Really! While CVA did mistakes we also did well earlier and our space grew under the help of every pilot living there. And CVA also lost a huge amount of assets not only you guys. We also lost perspective, my corp for example was about to put up a new outpost which we now can forget about. We lost several bio to the enemy only in structures by upgrading systems only to loose em some months later. On top my members lost several more billions for ships to defend D-G, MH9 etc. Do I now stab a knife in your back or Aralis back? Just to stab something? NO I DON'T!
Back to topic. When I read your blogs correct, your leadership wants to move ahead to whatever but just not with CVA anymore. If that is true, why I am so surprised about your answer to make "0utbreak" neutral? Cause you search for reasons now why to abandon CVA even more instead of finding a solution and move ahead? We have to adapt, there was already a too long period where we didn't adapted. Only made enemies and no friends. CVA tries to change, are you too? Or do you sit on your laurels which our real enemies (UK) coated you around your head.
-speedOriginally Posted by Clavius XIV
Pretty much this. There's a world of difference between allying with NBSI entities and letting them base out of your stations and shoot up your residents and neighbors.
For what it is worth I don't see any long term benefit to these arrangements, but I don't see drawbacks either.Originally Posted by Sollanai dont know the history here, but we need all the allies we can get atm.
We are now the pirates/freedom fighters fighting to remove the agressor from our lands.
or are we.
I personally think we are in a new cycle, a new era for which CVA could in fact redefine its self , as BOB did with becoming IT, and goons disbanding to join MM.
Everything we had is now lost, except our sense of purpose.
I know project deliverance succeeded, but we became decadent and complascent, and we lost it all in a heart beat.
Why not use this time to forget the old and bring out the new shining rebuilt CVA, with new goals, aims and new lamnds to conquer and claim for amarr and the empire.Originally Posted by speedcatI think we do that just now or are in the process to do it. So why not just calm down a bit and appreciate the work others do and help em with that? Instead of always search for reasons why something is bad? (not meant you with that Sollana but some posters before).
-speedOriginally Posted by HalarachYou can't prevent some people to be surprised, annoyed, or even leave because of this drastic changes speed.
CVA used to work only with honorable entities, and is now setting all kinds of scums blue to achieve its goal. This is not an easy move for everybody, gotta accept it, especially hardcore Amarr loyalists who find themselves "forced" (big word, but you know what I mean) to work with pirates and the likes.
Don't be too harsh at them, it's understandable.
Originally Posted by Kra RAId understand if this was about mineral moons but what is problem with some reds getting killed by folks looking for fun? We can set them red later but now we have that many we can share some with others... dont be greedy lads! :wink:Originally Posted by aak88
I'm going to get flamed but...CVA in my time has worked with IAC, LFA, and Sylph. All three of these Alliances "pirated" outside of Provi but were nrds in Provi. 0utbreak, Br1ck Squad, and Hydra "pirate" outside of Prov but are nrds in Provi. Like Aralis said, we are in no place to demand other entities be nrds in the Empire/Providence, but they are. That says a lot about them in my book.
So ask yourself this, why even bother trying to get standings set with us? If they really wanted to pirate why not just fly down here and do it?Originally Posted by speedcatIt's not about scum only. It's about growing up in your head. We are not 15 years old anymore. Sometimes you need to do compromises. Which is when Hydra accepts NRDS and we accept them as neutrals/blues.
While I understand the people that say, the changes are harsh, I don't understand the same people when they say that we abandoned our principles. We did not!
They accepted our rules and that was always everything we asked for. Now we should calm down a bit and accept that there are people out there that want to help us BECAUSE we did NRDS and BECAUSE we didn't accepted to be -A- pets!
That is what I want you RP guys to get inside yourself. The so called "pirate scum" did not get neutral/blue because we adapted to em but because we do our own thing and they respect that and want to help us.
When I started this game, I got killed by a famous pirate called "Keta Min". He was one of those camping lowsec gates with his Uber-Tempest and killing your hauler. I was a noob, I got destroyed over and over again and didn't even knew what happened and what tracking/oribiting etc. was.
Why is this important? I still hate pirates that go after easy kills only. CVA has its own special way to deal with that, its not only NRDS, it was also some special behaviour. CVA doesn't accept someone elses terms, we have our own and we still have them. That's why I joined.
But now compare Hydra to this. They are similar. They don't accept anyone elses terms, don't want to be pets. Trained their skills that hard until they were able to fight outnumbered and even win the fight. They got used to being an underdog with different rules.
Okey you say but they shot neutrals everywhere. Hell yeah they did, cause they saw us as another authority like NC / SC. But you can't deny the fact that they mostly kept gentleman's by doing this. They didn't asked for help from one of the big boys when the got outnumbered by us or even a neutral. They just accepted defeat and moved ahead, learning something from it. Just like we do.
So for me, those Alliances are similar to us. In all they do. We are together a dying species. All others NAP themselfs to hell. That's btw also the reason for our corporation name "Human Liberty".
Pandemic Legion. When they left their space and almost died I thought. Crap are those guys weak. After we did the same I think different. Actually it was very smart. Now see what they do. We could do the same with our small group doing massive damage while keeping our standards and own principles. That's the new CVA I would like to see. And as sooner as we change our mindset and accept that, as sooner we will getting strong again.
- speedOriginally Posted by HellacioussNo one is forcing anyone to work with these guys. You most likely won't even see them that much. If someone is so angry about alliances agreeing to our nrds policy they don't have to join them. Facts are we aren't taking providence back without friends. If you want to sit in empire for the rest of your life, Amarr is right around the corner and we have plenty of war decs and you can ask aralis to make them mutual (if we are the ones decced, not in game atm to see the list of decs).
Sometimes it feels like there are agents here shooting down all attempts at gaining friends and trying to instill dissent when we do.Originally Posted by Silva KrellOur aim is to secure providence from pirates. We just got lots of people who used to pirate here to agree to stop. In fact not only have they agreed to stop but they also want to shoot at reds for us. In this way they are paying back their debt to our society, with the ships they lose fighting for us.
All this when we are at a low point. I wouldn't wanna mess with us when we are at a high point.Originally Posted by cptgoneEve is just a game. you don't have to be scum to be NBSI, or to ransom people. it's a legit play style. after all, don't we roleplay arrogant slavers?
IMHO, in game, cheating is the worst sin. i don't think Hydra etc. are cheats (like BoB was).
and even the worst sinners can see the light and repent.Originally Posted by Alistair CononachA. I (and most who share my viewpoint) realize that CVA is changing, and that many think must change, to stay relevant and alive. We also know Aralis is doing as much as he can to get these unrepentant and unsavory new "allies" to agree to our most core terms, in defense of CVA's NRDS idealism. We may not like it, but we know the choice is clear, accept it, or leave. Such is personal freedom.
B. With that said, I really am saddened and dissapointed to see how much open and outright disdain and disrespect there is towards what Halarach wrote, and the ideals ensconced within.
It's not enough for some that our dwindling RP'ers and idealists and Old-School-CVA-values-players accept and live with the unrepentant pirates we're now allying with, we cannot even be disturbed at all or even mildly dissapointed about this turn of events, or we get called (as you all wrote) ignorant "15 year old probable spies who don't get that piracy and ransoming is "legit""?
With respect, yes EVE is just a game, we all know know that incredably obvious fact. That does not mean one cannot choose the difficult path, or have standards or ideals in how they choose to play the game, and CVA a long time ago choose two, EVE on hardmode NRDS/Anti-Pirate and Amarr-Loyalist RP (and one could add in no metagaming, which is not, in fact, "cheating", but is something we consciously choose not to do). When it appears that those ideas are suffering, some will not be happy about it. To demean those people who care enough to express that dissapointment as "15 year olds who can't grow up, probably are spies, and just can't see how legit piracy and ransoming are " is a * bad joke, tbh.
Just because we are forced by circumstance to compromise our ideals now to some degree (and respect to Aralis for doing his utmost to ensure that compromise is as limited as humanly possible), and work with people who would absolutely not have in the past, doesn't mean those who are unhappy (but acceptant and staying and fighting every day, like Halarach and myself) about those compromises are 15 years old, spies or lolRPfaggots as some of you like to think.
If you cannot understand why some folks might feel some dissapointment in blueing the Outbreaks of EVE, I suggest you may want to just ignore such comments, rather than reply and expose your own ignorance about what CVA was all about for the past 5 years.Originally Posted by Tyrael PrimusFrom a somewhat outside perspective I think 'EVE on hardmode NRDS/Anti-Pirate + Amarr Loyalist RP + no metagaming' is totally possible and CVA don't need to compromise here. So the points of contention and compromise are what our allies are doing; they're following the KOS list after all since there are plenty of targets for them, and the anti-metagaming/singing deterrence of api registered voice comms. I don't know enough about the computer issues some have with other voice chats to comment but I can say that allying with Genos + Outbreak was helpful so far. Are they part of the Holder group or loyal Citadel citizenry, of course not. I do prefer them blue than red though :P Even announcing these unsavory alliances on galnet shouldn't be much of an issue since the ability to compromise, even just a little, is a recognized benefit to any alliance. The core values of CVA as I see them have not been compromised (again from my outside but longer term perspective). Obviously some disagreed and had to part ways but I think they will float around the Empire and someday return...sure isOriginally Posted by scagga laebetrovoPlease do consider discussing certain points in private. This is Kugutsumen material.
l o lOriginally Posted by Alistair CononachYou know what, screw that, I refuse to be fearful of the Kun-*-man crowd.
I'm not giving out any Alliance secrets here, nor am I in a position any longer to KNOW any Alliance secrets. Everyone in EVE who has ever met Alistair should know by now I am passionate and fiery on the topic of RP and CVA Ethics. There is no suprises or news here.
I assure you my friend, if the Kun-*-man crowd wishes to take a little spirited debate about allies as a sign of weakness or division, they'll learn that mistake the next time we kill them. If Outbreak wish to take one hardcore RP'ers distaste (yet acceptance) over their past pirate ways badly, well.....So. Friggin. Be it. Somehow, I doubt they's be overly * tbh, probably proud of it matter of fact.
There is no private in the metagaming pool of EVE. My views are well known to any spy that actually does exist, as it only takes one * bitter dishonest or otherwise misreprented corpie to spill everything you say on a forum or in alliance chat. I'm not going to watch my words for the rest of time fearful that one of them may get reported to Kungustman or Scrapheap or EVE-O.
Originally Posted by HalarachI don't even reply anymore tbh, I've given up on CVA being an RP alliance, all we get for trying to encourage it is insults, taunts, or being told to shut up.
Not my cup of tea to fight for that I have better stuff to do.
Many people should ask themselves why they write Amarr Victor in local btw.
Originally Posted by Andrew GaspurrI'd like to comment on this particular term and just take it to a meta level, because this holds some obvious things one can derive from the sole existence of the Empire.Amarr Loyalist RP
The Amarr Empire has existed for some 3.000 years now. It has written a history of bloody conflict, civil war, oppression and aggressive expansion that would make Attila the Hun look like Attila the Nun.
It is a very conservative, monolithic entity that clouds its aggressiveness and cruelty in religious doctrine and deification of certain leadership people and the decisions they make. It uses this for crowd control and to "rightfully" conquer inferior populations. It makes this attractive to its people by declaring slavery legal and a divinely justified right.
Here come my assumptions:
Only by those rather aggressive moves and policies could the Empire sustain itself. Only by successfully doing so could it avert civil unrest and its own disintegration. Such a type of government is not ruled by trust alone (if at all), let alone by going to temple services each sunday. This system can only function if you systematically use every ressource available to further your goals and eliminate those that stay one step behind you to stabb you in the back. As you have divine right, you can declare almost anything rightful as long as you don't screw your tenants. I assume in its glorious past the Amarr Empire will have used every means to achieving its goals, and that includes in EVE terms
a) resetting friends
b) pnissing off allies
c) stealing sov
d) hiring pirates/mercs to disrupt the enemy
f) assassinating key figures
g) wasting millions of lives in their "god dictated" wars
h) making a favourable propaganda war to let others look like losers
The Amarr Empire (well, as I see it) is a totally ruthless powerplayer, and the tone I get when reading stuff about it is oppressive, gothic and cruel. Much like the Human Empire in Warhammer 40.000 actually, if you pardon the comparison. The Amarr Empire may consider itself being "good" but it's definitely not "nice". It will hire all (and all means) who can do harm to its enemies and cloak those it hires in angelic raiments to see for all its people. If these angels get wasted so be it, if they get reduced in numbers all the better, because then they cannot lay claims on anything thereafter. It may just hire mercs to stay idle doing ship spinning or doing boring counter insurgency just so that the enemy cannot hire them for attacks.
Just like the Roman Empire they divide and rule. If one local baron gets kicked it's his failure but the Empire will survive. If one baron yells too loud the Empire will silence him with its other local barons and select the one who did best as the new champion, just making him the next target. The Amarr Empire does not rest its foundations on friendship. If it had, it would have fallen long ago.
So in my humble opinion any Amarr Loyalist RP should reflect this to some extend. The exact amount is of course left to the player, but it is very obvious that the entity CVA calls its patron is a totally ruthless bunch of warmongers and powerplayers that want to rule New Eden; at all costs.
CVA has made itself a part of this in its own frame of roleplay. And of course it does not grasp all this meta stuff I just mentioned. But it (i.e. "we") have to find a solution for a situation that does at this moment not favour us. So maybe the Amarrian Deity demands a new evaluation of options...
Now comes Al Pacino and his relevance to CVA and Providence:
"We will do it, inch by inch. We tear everyone around us and ourselves to pieces for that inch. We claw with our fingernails for that inch."
That basically says it all. Use all means and all resources to drive one's goals further and further. Do not let morality overtake your aims, you can deal with morality later if you have achieved what you wanted. And all of CVA wants its part of Providence back, the part its arch enemies and their patrons took from it. And these fnukkers just have to die, because they did so.
When the dust settles, reconsider your choices. Make new allies, excommunicate weak ones, install folks that made a name out of themselves and then divide and rule.
Sorry if this may just sound a bit pathetic, the feeling took me while writing this. These are just some considerations I wanted to mention and maybe hint at when speaking or thinking of how the Empire may see hiring pirates, reds and whatever to situationally further an important cause. I do know that many favour a more honourable approach to all this, but I was just stumbling over Loyalist RP. When clawing for an inch the one thing you do not want to wear is gloves made out of silk. You want an iron gauntlet.
As always, my 4 I$K
Andrew GaspurrOriginally Posted by scagga laebetrovoFear is not the correct word to use to characterise my post. I see it from the angle of common sense and alliance interests, but I guess those are both in the eye of the beholder. Nevermind.