Am I stupid or is the HAM Cerb actually a viable fleet comp now?

[MintyRoadkill]

2 Different fits: One prioritizing DPS/Range (CN Scourge or Scourge Javelin, respectively) and one prioritizing EHP (an extra 9k in exchange for Javelin DPS at only slightly better than scourge range from other fit)


Fit 1 (both ammo types loaded):





Fit 2:



The obvious flaw is that AHACs take advantage of low sig while this is based entirely on range, but getting to choose between nearly 500 DPS at 60km or nearly 400 at 90km is no joke, it's LR Battleship DPS out of a HAC. Great resists make repping easier especially if you throw in some nice links, but catching reps might be a problem with low-ish EHP. Cap is an issue so you can't MWD for very long because Caldar HACs got 'd. Despite cap issues, it still seems to me like it'd work fairly well.

Thoughts?

[Hilmar Keller]

Aside from getting firewalled and being twice as expensive as Drakes and being totally fucked against AFs (lmao) and delayed damage and having no obvious advantages versus Drakes beside range, it's okay.

E: Truth is I made a Sacrilege AHAC fit which on paper works great, but then I shot it over to Elo who took a monstrous dump on me so I'll not do anybody the injustice of posting it here.

[ihaveahelmet]

Still worse than nerfed tengu.

[MintyRoadkill]

Still worse than nerfed tengu.

Still a good 300m+ cheaper though.

[MintyRoadkill]

Aside from getting firewalled and being twice as expensive as Drakes and being totally fucked against AFs (lmao) and delayed damage and having no obvious advantages versus Drakes beside range, it's okay.

Well, they're faster, lower sig, better resists (so it multiplies your logistics better), and have something like 40% more DPS than a Drake, so there's definitely an advantage over them.

E: Truth is I made a Sacrilege AHAC fit which on paper works great, but then I shot it over to Elo who took a monstrous dump on me so I'll not do anybody the injustice of posting it here.

That's kind of what I was expecting for this, tbh.

[ihaveahelmet]

Still a good 300m+ cheaper though.

Be entirely honest, is the cost of a tech3 really prohibitive for most people who'd be looking to field a ship concept like this one? Even other HACs would be better.

Besides, compare it to its closest equivalent, the pulse (or beam, for the sake of range) zealot. One of the biggest problems when running a sig tanking comp is massed support that can fuck over your mobility. HAMs sure were buffed, but they're still not to the point where they can rape support quickly enough to nullify what threat they can pose; even prenerf HMLs had the problem of not being good enough for this, and the new HAMs are still worse than them. Both pulse and beam zealots shit on cerbs in this concept because turrets dont suffer from such a direct damage reduction when shooting fast or small targets, not to mention the tons of other advantages they have.

Sure, it's a lot better than what you could have possibly done with a Cerberus in the past, but it's still nowhere near good enough to warrant a fleet concept based on it for more than just a gimmick thing.

[MintyRoadkill]

Something like that actually occurred to me: it compares favorably to Drakes, but Drakes are cheaper and pretty much every EVE pilot can fly one, where if you're going to fly a concept with this much of a skill requirement you might as well take it one step further.

[ihaveahelmet]

Something like that actually occurred to me: it compares favorably to Drakes, but Drakes are cheaper and pretty much every EVE pilot can fly one, where if you're going to fly a concept with this much of a skill requirement you might as well take it one step further.

The problem is that despite the higher skill requirement, it's not as good as other options in a more common platform (the zealot)

[MintyRoadkill]

The problem is that despite the higher skill requirement, it's not as good as other options in a more common platform (the zealot)

I do think it outperforms the Zealot at ranges past 40 km, but i don't know the numbers for a Zealot offhand so I'm just throwing this out there without backing it up.

[n0th]

E: Truth is I made a Sacrilege AHAC fit which on paper works great, but then I shot it over to Elo who took a monstrous dump on me so I'll not do anybody the injustice of posting it here.

Maybe Elo is just bad
(ok, you really shouldnt put an AB on there)
Its a 100k eHP HAC with monstrous capacitor, resist bonus, 3 free mids and 500 dps.
Sacrilege should work amazing in medium-sized gangs against a lot of things.
Of course the concept doesnt scale up too well, unlike Zealots.
I've just had one fight in them, was pretty interesting actually.
http://kb.ds-alliance.com/battle/b5919/

Cerberus on the other hand is now a worse Caracal that costs 100mil. So retarded...

[Hilmar Keller]

I do think it outperforms the Zealot at ranges past 40 km, but i don't know the numbers for a Zealot offhand so I'm just throwing this out there without backing it up.

It becomes a matter of dictating range. If Zealots land on your Cerb fleet at or near zero, you're going to lose a shitload of Cerbs before they can burn out beyond 40km, and then at that point the Zealots will have killed any remaining tackle and warped off.

If an AHAC FC actually stays on the field with an enemy fleet out of range, that's just bad FCing.

[Hilmar Keller]

Maybe Elo is just bad
(ok, you shouldnt put an AB on there, sigtanking in eve doesnt work since like 2009)
Its a 100k eHP HAC with monstrous capacitor, resist bonus, 3 free mids and 500 dps.
Sacrilege should work amazing in medium-sized gangs against a lot of things.
Im in the process of proving it
http://kb.ds-alliance.com/battle/b5919/

Cerberus on the other hand is now a worse Caracal that costs 100mil. So retarded...

I can't see your fit on your KB because I'm not in Darkside, lmao

But anyway here's the fit I have

[Sacrilege, AHAC]
Damage Control II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Experimental 10MN Afterburner I
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Enfeebling Phase Inversion ECM I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Medium Energy Neutralizer II

Medium Anti-Thermic Pump I
Medium Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I


Hornet EC-300 x3


Having three ewar slots is kinda weird but I think the TPs/webs mostly help with damage and the ECM can go on logi

[n0th]

No, you put damps/TDs in the mids and have your pilots figure out how to spread ewar (its not hard).
I'm also thinking about doing a sensor booster and becoming 100% immune to every tier3 kiting fleet out there. Like o7, 80% of your Nagas are now damped to 50k lockrange and also cant track anything at all - we've been on the receiving end of this from t1 cruiser blobs.

[Hilmar Keller]

Ideally pilots would be able to manage ewar independently but it's far more reliable to say 'put jams on the broadcast' than 'put damps on somebody whose name begins with the letter T'

[Teh Ashen]

Gentlemen, the answer to your RSD dilemma.

[Celestis, Armor Fleet]
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Power Diagnostic System II


Remote Sensor Dampener II, Targeting Range Dampening Script
Remote Sensor Dampener II, Targeting Range Dampening Script
Remote Sensor Dampener II, Targeting Range Dampening Script
Remote Sensor Dampener II, Targeting Range Dampening Script
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I


Small YF-12a Smartbomb
Small Rudimentary Concussion Bomb I
[empty high slot]


Medium Inverted Signal Field Projector I
Medium Ionic Field Projector I
Medium Anti-Explosive Pump I




Vespa EC-600 x5

[MintyRoadkill]

It becomes a matter of dictating range. If Zealots land on your Cerb fleet at or near zero, you're going to lose a shitload of Cerbs before they can burn out beyond 40km, and then at that point the Zealots will have killed any remaining tackle and warped off.

If an AHAC FC actually stays on the field with an enemy fleet out of range, that's just bad FCing.

Oh, i just meant in general, not necessarily AHACs vs. SHACs

[Securitas]

No, you put damps/TDs in the mids and have your pilots figure out how to spread ewar (its not hard).
I'm also thinking about doing a sensor booster and becoming 100% immune to every tier3 kiting fleet out there. Like o7, 80% of your Nagas are now damped to 50k lockrange and also cant track anything at all - we've been on the receiving end of this from t1 cruiser blobs.

Fuck the shit out of your killboard, by the way.

[Mira Z]

When I was taking a look at HAMs I was struck with visions of ABs and active tank modules being shut down by heavy neutralisers.

I just want to fly brawler battleships, is that so bad?

[Malcanis]

When I was taking a look at HAMs I was struck with visions of ABs and active tank modules being shut down by heavy neutralisers.

I just want to fly brawler battleships, is that so bad?

No it's healthy and normal and don't let anyone tell you that you don't deserve to be as happy as you're able.

[Grath]

Badhacs own these, any fleet that gets you to engage then warps a t3 sniper fleet on grid owns these, in fact, a tanked fleet of t3's set to project damage to 100km will own these really hard, one smart bombing maller nullifying all their DPS if they want to try for range.


Your best bet will be to hope that hacs get a revision by spring, right now they're just not really worth flying in any meaningful constant way.



EDIT: Sig 942 = owned by everything in EVE. Pretty sure if these fuckers are MWDing at speed, that even my TItan can still hit them.

[MintyRoadkill]

Badhacs own these, any fleet that gets you to engage then warps a t3 sniper fleet on grid owns these, in fact, a tanked fleet of t3's set to project damage to 100km will own these really hard, one smart bombing maller nullifying all their DPS if they want to try for range.

Monstrous dump achieved.

Your best bet will be to hope that hacs get a revision by spring, right now they're just not really worth flying in any meaningful constant way.

Yeah, TBH there's still a lot of borked ships out there. Would be nice if CCP could give the not-yet balanced subcaps a mass touch up (such as the Eagle getting a small speed and PG boost, etc) for the meantime while they're still rebalancing.

[Teh Ashen]

All a Cerberus has over a Caracal at the moment is 5% per level kinetic bonus, an extra high slot, and 20k ehp, and the Caracal is 2100m/s without heat so, go Caracal.

[Coolley]

This thread does nothing but make me sad...

All I want is to fly in 100 man fleet of ASB Ownzone Torp Raven's, but that shit ain't gonna happen either.

[Malcanis]

Yeah, TBH there's still a lot of borked ships out there. Would be nice if CCP could give the not-yet balanced subcaps a mass touch up (such as the Eagle getting a small speed and PG boost, etc) for the meantime while they're still rebalancing.

Unless the Eagle gets like a +25% damage per level to medium Hybrids or something, it's not going to be worth shit. The HAC sniper role died irrevocably the day tier 3 BS were introduced. It is pining for the fjords. It has gone to meet its maker. It is a dead role. And the Eagle was shit at it even before then.

So far as I can see there are 3 viable roles you could assign to HACs

(1) Vagabond style fast cruisers than can pick and choose their engagements. (The Eagle could do this quite happily with a suitable rejuggling of its bonuses and stats)

(2) High-resist/low sig/good agility tanky brawlers; not necessarily AHACs, but the AHAC doctrine would be a good example of the general concept. (The Eagle could feasibly do this too)

(3) "Other" - specialist one-off roles that nothing else does. EG: Make the Cerberus a specialist anti-EW platform, with super-high sensor strength, targetting range and scan res, so it can discount ECM, Damps, and of course ignore Tracking Disruptors. Maybe give it some kind of "ARM" style role bonus that adds a missile precision bonus when firing at ships that have active EW modules. Because fuck if I can think of any other PvP role for the poor ole Cerb that isn't basically clown shoes, paint buckets and hoping the other guy is bad.

[Don Peyote]

(3) "Other" - specialist one-off roles that nothing else does. EG: Make the Cerberus a specialist anti-EW platform, with super-high sensor strength, targetting range and scan res, so it can discount ECM, Damps, and of course ignore Tracking Disruptors. Maybe give it some kind of "ARM" style role bonus that adds a missile precision bonus when firing at ships that have active EW modules. Because fuck if I can think of any other PvP role for the poor ole Cerb that isn't basically clown shoes, paint buckets and hoping the other guy is bad.

Ooh, I like the sound of this!

EDIT : more ships need defined roles like this. Even "dedicated anti-frigate platform" or something as lazy as that for one HAC of each race would be an improvement over the current roles (mediocre mainline combat ships)

[MintyRoadkill]

Unless the Eagle gets like a +25% damage per level to medium Hybrids or something, it's not going to be worth shit. The HAC sniper role died irrevocably the day tier 3 BS were introduced. It is pining for the fjords. It has gone to meet its maker. It is a dead role. And the Eagle was shit at it even before then.

I was thinking more for the sake of smaller scale PVP applications than as a fleet comp. I don't necessarily see the need for every ship to have the ability to be the meat of a fleet concept, but there should definitely be a place for every ship.


IMO the Cerb should be a Vagabond style kiter, while the Eagle should be a brawler. This is of course just scaling up from the Caracal and the Moa, but it does make a good bit of sense.

Honestly, brawling in an Eagle as of now actually isn't terrible, since it's bad speed is kind of negated by the fact that you don't need to escape your target or keep range, though getting into range can in some situations be a problem, it's not when you're fighting close to a gate which is where most small scale PVP is. You get to take advantage of it's massive tank and blaster DPS (though the moa now has equal DPS, making the Eagle somewhat more of a joke). But it's still nothing compared to other HACs and only marginally better than the Moa at this point.


Edit: LOL i forgot drones, the Moa actually has better DPS than the Eagle, wolololololo

[EnemyBadGuy]

I thought the Cerb might be interesting but then I compared it with a Naga. The Cerb lost.

[MintyRoadkill]

I thought the Cerb might be interesting but then I compared it with a Naga. The Cerb lost.

The major difference i see between the two is resists, which favor the Cerb especially against Naga damage types, but other than that t3's are more mobile and cap stable.

[Jean Leaner]

The major difference i see between the two is resists, which favor the Cerb especially against Naga damage types, but other than that t3's are more mobile and cap stable.

and project more damage, cost half as much, Have better engagement range. Theres more, but I'll stop there.

[MintyRoadkill]

and project more damage, cost half as much, Have better engagement range. Theres more, but I'll stop there.

I've always though of ranged T3's as something like 500 DPS~ but i always forget they do more.

[Malcanis]

Ooh, I like the sound of this!

EDIT : more ships need defined roles like this. Even "dedicated anti-frigate platform" or something as lazy as that for one HAC of each race would be an improvement over the current roles (mediocre mainline combat ships)

The Cerb works particularly well for the anti-EW role because the delayed damage effect isn't so much of a problem when you're countering ships that rely on being continuous on grid for their efffect.

The Amarr HACs are practically in the role categories I mentioned already, so they'd just need some tweaking to make them actually viable. The Sac was born to be a close-up brawler, and the Zealot wouldn't need that much reworking to be a Laserbond.

The Ishtar has the drone thing as it's special power, and that's OK. The Deimos again is pretty much where it needs to be, maybe just a smidged more base hp.

Ironically, the Munin has a viable one-off dedicated role as a medium range sniper-HAC, because arty alpha makes this worth doing.

[Velonad]

I was thinking more for the sake of smaller scale PVP applications than as a fleet comp. I don't necessarily see the need for every ship to have the ability to be the meat of a fleet concept, but there should definitely be a place for every ship.


IMO the Cerb should be a Vagabond style kiter, while the Eagle should be a brawler. This is of course just scaling up from the Caracal and the Moa, but it does make a good bit of sense.

Honestly, brawling in an Eagle as of now actually isn't terrible, since it's bad speed is kind of negated by the fact that you don't need to escape your target or keep range, though getting into range can in some situations be a problem, it's not when you're fighting close to a gate which is where most small scale PVP is. You get to take advantage of it's massive tank and blaster DPS (though the moa now has equal DPS, making the Eagle somewhat more of a joke). But it's still nothing compared to other HACs and only marginally better than the Moa at this point.


Edit: LOL i forgot drones, the Moa actually has better DPS than the Eagle, wolololololo

The cerb already is a kiter with velocity and range bonuses.

Some of you people (about 50 % of this thread btw) need to do some elementary fact checking before hitting the magical post button.

[MintyRoadkill]

The cerb already is a kiter with velocity and range bonuses.

Some of you people (about 50 % of this thread btw) need to do some elementary fact checking before hitting the magical post button.

The Cerb is nowhere near as fast as a Vaga/Cyna/Stabber/Rupture, etc. Just compared it to a Vaga and it's about half as fast with 1 nano and MWD.

The velocity bonus is to missiles.

~Elementary fact checking~

[Velonad]

It's got double bonuses to it's missiles which means it's got bosstier range with pretty much Lights, HAMs and HMLs. If you are good and can manage heat it's a kiter because with 1-2 huginns you can keep decent range to any gang except maybe a pure Cynabal/Vaga comp.

It will get murdered by Tier 3 BCs tho.

[Malcanis]

It's got double bonuses to it's missiles which means it's got bosstier range with pretty much Lights, HAMs and HMLs. If you are good and can manage heat it's a kiter because with 1-2 huginns you can keep decent range to any gang except maybe a pure Cynabal/Vaga comp.

It will get murdered by Tier 3 BCs tho.

Yeah no you're right cerbs are awesome, that's why everyone uses them all the time everywhere and not just to rat Guristas whilst they save up for a Tengu, what the hell was I thinking?

[Le'Blob]

Yeah no you're right cerbs are awesome, that's why everyone uses them all the time everywhere and not just to rat Guristas whilst they save up for a Tengu, what the hell was I thinking?

I for one am interested in what this man has to say. Especially with his reputation as a competent alliance leader, of a competent alliance.

[MintyRoadkill]

It's got double bonuses to it's missiles which means it's got bosstier range with pretty much Lights, HAMs and HMLs. If you are good and can manage heat it's a kiter because with 1-2 huginns you can keep decent range to any gang except maybe a pure Cynabal/Vaga comp.

It will get murdered by Tier 3 BCs tho.

With 1-2 Huginns and an MWD anything's a "kiter". But regardless, no, the ship is not nearly as fast as the ships that can actually pull off the kiting role.

[Hilmar Keller]

The only two relevant missile-based fleet comps are still Drake and Tengu, Drake because it's cheap, low SP, and tanks like a mother (plus has drone support) whereas the Tengu can project damage beyond Huginn web range. The Cerb can do neither.

The Sacrilege is an intriguing AHAC alternative but it's still inferior to the Zealot in terms of range and damage projection and only slightly superior in tank/sig radius.

[ihaveahelmet]

shut the fuck up velonad

[ihaveahelmet]

The only two relevant missile-based fleet comps are still Drake and Tengu

prepare to be bedazzled, astounded and stupefied

[Malcanis]

prepare to be bedazzled, astounded and stupefied

I'm prepared. CNRfleet is GO?

[Malcanis]

Wait no, tell me it's Fleetphoonfleet?

Because I want that to be true so very badly




Signed,

A competent alliance leader

[Hilmar Keller]

NANOPHOONS ASSEMBLE

[Don Peyote]

shut the fuck up velonad

velonad is p good h ats

i mnea i love you more an yevrerying but velongad is the hnowreigan of my heart always

happy nwe yar

[Velonad]

velonad is p good h ats

i mnea i love you more an yevrerying but velongad is the hnowreigan of my heart always

happy nwe yar

Hahahaha, happy new year gays.

[Quesa]

I really think the cruiser hull class will continue to struggle as long as we have the current weapon system in place. Large guns hit too hard on medium/small hulls and, with minimal EWAR support, negate a lot of the benefits for flying such.

I still think we should be using the different weapon size tiers for what I believe they were originally intended for, instead of fitting. So, the large guns like mPulses and 1400's hit hard on BS and above but lose effectiveness on BC and barely hit cruiser.

[Malcanis]

I really think the cruiser hull class will continue to struggle as long as we have the current weapon system in place. Large guns hit too hard on medium/small hulls and, with minimal EWAR support, negate a lot of the benefits for flying such.

Yet they're exactly what they were when AHACs and Sniper HACs were prime doctrines. So what's changed?

[Velonad]

Yet they're exactly what they were when AHACs and Sniper HACs were prime doctrines. So what's changed?

What has changed isn't a BS gun' ability to actually hit cruiser hulls consistently well, but rather that people are actually bringing fleet comps with some rudimentary form of ewar (TPs and webs) that will make BS guns track cruisers well enough.

[Malcanis]

Exactly my point.

[Hilmar Keller]

I'd forgotten all about this thread.

Despite the HAM buff and the HM nerf, HMs still provide a lot of bang in terms of pure alpha. I see a lot of HM Caracals providing reliable damage to small gangs while staying out of scram/web range. It's still idiot-proof DPS provided the dudes follow primary.