although i agree here, and think csm cannot do much, i think you have caused somewhat of a storm Horus. Apparently Vuk and Elven have been following up w/ CCP on this, to see if csm can do anything. Highly, highly doubtful though.Originally Posted by Horus
The CSM is worthless, always have been and always will be.
The only perceived "worth" they have right now is that they got behind the tsunami that was the player revolt over unacceptable battle lag. If they hadn't, there wouldn't BE a CSM right now, I could imagine every 0.0 alliance destroying the elections with nominations for "Alfred E Neumann" and "NONE OF THE ABOVE" had they not got in line.
The only thing that is going to get CCP to get serious about the bots and RMT is a revolt similar in scale by the player base as a whole. The problem is convincing enough of them (ie, non 0.0 PVP types) that it is a problem.
Well with CrusaderKnight taking such a firm stance on this issue I'm fairly confident that the opposite side is probably the right place to be
^ This.
God, I wish I were getting paid for that.
(Aside from one nice person who bought me a timecard so I could actually "play" this game.)
Alright, I guess I'm retarded and just don't get it. Someone explain to me how CCP is making money from RMT bots?
I get that they fund their account by buying a plex which someone else paid legal money for to CCP. I'm sure CCP is \o/.
So bot buys a plex for 300M isk. Then macros away for a month and sell 30B or whatever via RMT. In other words, they created demand for 300M isk but simultaneously created 30B isk of supply that competes with the legal market. Sure, the supply they created is 'illegal' and carries risk, but I'm willing to bet that at least 300M of the 30B of illegal isk would have been bought legally from CCP if the illegal isk was not available (in aggregate - ie 1%). In other words, CCP made 1 plex worth of cash, but that was used to fill the supply of (unknown, but probably) many additional plexes worth of demand.
CCP LOSES money from botters, or makes much less than they could. Or I'm missing something - my neckbeard is a bit patchy atm. Then again, I'm responding to a CrusaderKnight post. I guess I just answered my own question.
PLEX aren't seeded ingame, it's actual players converting a GTC. Regardless of payment method to keep your subscription going, CCP are making 15$ (-ish) per month per account. Given that botters probably don't do much else in-game, it's a couple of hundred added subscriptions that wouldn't otherwise be there. So, in a sense, CCP is profiting from botting and RMT.
Yes, I understand plexes are not seeded, but the bots sell a shit ton more isk to people, some of whom would likely have bought plexes instead of bot isk. CCP comes out behind, easily - RMT bot sells 30B / mo (supply) and only buys 300M / mo (demand).
The removal of bots would logically drop the price of plex (less demand on plex), which will probably increase the demand for plex from real players (hey, I can generate enough Isk to play for free!). Depending on how much it changes some people who were going to buy plex might not (I'm not getting enough isk for my $) but since there's billions and billions of bot isk not being injected into the system and sold through alternate channels isk will also become more valuable. It's just as possible removing bots would lead to more plex being sold, the people buying them still want to get shiny things without playing.
But really I don't think CCP are avoiding acting on bots because of a fear of PLEX sales, I think it's because it's too much ::
That's the point yo. This whole thing is predicated on a large amount of demand - people willing to spend a decent amount of cash and take risk to buy significant isk. If it was small demand, they would just buy legally, not worth the hassel to find low risk option.
Ultimately this demand is making a tradeoff - pay a premium for legal isk (plex) or buy at a discount for risky bot isk. The bigger the discount or lower the perceived risk, the more demand shifts to illegal channels - and the more demand shifts to bots, the more bots are created to supply. The higher plex prices are caused more buy this demand shifting away from legal channels and toward RMT botting. And its self reinforcing - demand (for isk) shifts away from legal channels, causing fewer legal plexes on market and plex price rise, further compounding the legal premium vs bot risk/discount.
Whether CCP makes or loses money from bots comes down to the question of if all bots and mains (RMTers + personal isk bots + personal isk mains) create more plex demand to fund their gametime than they siphon off via illegal supply.
The problem with this whole idea is that there are ways to route internet traffic to make it look like it comes from within the us, (VPN's and such). The chinese rmt operations already do this in WoW, which has a seperate chinese server but still suffers from heavy rmt because it was financially feasible for them to rent a machine in a us datacenter and vpn in their whole operation.
Best part of the thread is the exposure of Manfred as nothing but a puppet leader for the -A- RUS shadow guarde
[09:31:23]tribute wont fall
(21:39:55) dabigredboat: pl wont get hired
(21:39:57) dabigredboat: nobody trusts them
(21:40:19) dabigredboat: I think pl is in delve to build supers
Not only that but CCP is making more money from the farmers/RMT'ers than they do those of us who pay for our subscriptions the old fashioned way. I have 5 accounts at the moment (soon to be cut to 3 thank God). Each account costs $14.99 USD. Each GTC costs $35, which converts to 2 30 day PLEX items. This means an account paid for by PLEX actually earns CCP $17.50 a month.
The botters aren't going to pay for their accounts with real money, not when they are farming ISK, they pay for PLEX items. This is trivial for them, each bot account makes back the cost of it's PLEX in mere hours.
Before the new 60 day GTC/PLEX system CCP sold 30, 60, and 90 day GTC's at subscription price face value. Meaning, you paid the same amount to play EVE via GTC that you did subscribing. I also note that serious anti-bot, anti-RMT efforts by CCP pretty much ENDED when they changed to the current system. You don't see huge crackdowns on the scale of "Unholy Rage" these days, and whenever someone brings up the bot/RMT problem CCP likes to point at something that they did over a year ago rather than answer for what they aren't doing TODAY...
Simply put, CCP isn't serious about stopping the bots because it isn't in their financial best interest to do.
The market for PLEX would balance itself out eventually if you got rid of the bots. Prices would depend on how many actual players want to pay for time in ISK vs those wanting to buy ISK for real money.The removal of bots would logically drop the price of plex (less demand on plex), which will probably increase the demand for plex from real players (hey, I can generate enough Isk to play for free!). Depending on how much it changes some people who were going to buy plex might not (I'm not getting enough isk for my $) but since there's billions and billions of bot isk not being injected into the system and sold through alternate channels isk will also become more valuable. It's just as possible removing bots would lead to more plex being sold, the people buying them still want to get shiny things without playing.
But really I don't think CCP are avoiding acting on bots because of a fear of PLEX sales, I think it's because it's too much :
The bots are both artificially driving up both demand for PLEX and the supply of ISK, thus inflating both.
Not to mention subs would collapse if we had to start ice mining again.
We also discovered that Shadoo is a good Broham. I now want to be his friend!
Or maybe just POS numbers would collapse, meaning that we could dump this terrible Dominion sov system that we had to have because there were no problems with spamming 4562347856 POS in a system to secure it because ice products were so retardedly cheap.
God that would be awful.
Isn't that the latest model russian mobile phone?
Though russians microchips are largest in the world, you sir, is a tool.
Though this one really wins design competition. Guess that's some maritime device.
So anyone wanna give me some tips on killing macros?
Lots of log on/log off, and lots of patience. Just find a system they hang in, log on/log off in the belts until you get a sight of them. You could do it more efficiently with bubbles and a gang, but it depends how much effort you want to put in really.
This post is worth reading if you're high and can't move your eyes
Yes, I'm sure the factory workers of China are peeved that they've had to give up eighteen hours a day, seven days a week of standing waist deep in shit filled rice paddies on a subsistence farm. I mean, snap. Now they're forced to work eight hour days in a factory that generally follows rules on safety set by a Western multinational desperate to avoid bad PR in the wake of all those oopsies last year.
It all makes sense now! After all, it's not like companies from Toys-R-Us to Palmolive have been reamed recently by customers and the media for the actions of their suppliers or anything. And Chinese people are definitely far too stupid to know how much better they had things on the farm. QED, they live in China, duh! Smart people live here, in America!
Also I loved the part of your post where Americans getting screwed by Hollywood was cool beans. It's important that those DVDs sell for more here because how else would producers get enough dollar bills to snort all that cocaine?
Someone's turning from being simply wrong to a racist fucktard. Gratz Crusader, what a development.
The facts have a strong anti-A- bias.
In another news. Tomorrow Dec. 7 is Cataclysm release.
I used to spend a lot of time farming the RA macro bots, the bubble trick use to work good until H-bot added a feature that detected the bubbles. You can input how many meters you want your bot to go from the bubble before trying to initiate warp (no agro) and then a check box to log-off (since if bubbles are in belts someone is really trying to catch you).
A lot of it is luck, you need to catch them in warp if possible. When system is hostile the bot will warp to a safe spot and then wait a user adjustable xxx amount of minutes + random xx so people can't guess when it will go active again after much trial and error. I want to say the default is 360s + 60s random, someone can correct me if I'm wrong.
Novice bot users will use the default belt sorting (sort by IC column), more advanced users will use a custom belt list and randomly put them in. If you are against a stock bot, sort by IC and if you can figure out what belt he was in you will know where he goes next.
If you can find a system with a small number of belts and log dictors off in them, wait like 10 minutes and mass login you may get lucky but again, for a raven kill it's not worth the effort unless you really have botter vendetta.
Ultimately AWOX'ing them works bestAWOX watches them and announces what belt they are warping to, gang jumps in and warps to that belt and should easily catch them and you don't blow your AWOX!
A friendlybump helps
[FONT=Comic Sans MS]We shall now take this war to the forums
[/FONT]
Can someone please explain what AWOX stands for? Thanks. Our alliance killed a number of bots in the Great Wildlands by using multiple bubbles anchored in belts and a bunch of interceptors/hics doing multiple log off/log ons to catch them at the bubbles before they escaped.
Ultimately AWOX'ing them works best
AWOX stands for Absolutely Wild Obese ... Xerophile.
Also it's a fatty in PL. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiyCjk50-X4
Awox is a person, goons know all about him. When goons & PL were blue Awox (in PL) would still continually kill goons. Hence his name became a verb, so AWOX is to use a blue to scout/tackle for you.
It wasn't something that went on continually, we only killed a couple of them, around 5 BS maybe incl a Golem or two.
Goons just get mad when someone shits on their own farming operation
The Monkeysphere [NEWS]
No one cared much until the frigate thunderdome smartbombing, truly a bridge too far
Prada?
rmts shows promise as a compelling kugu poster
He's certainly better than CrusaderKnight
that was tom honk not awox
So do the drone Russians apparentlyIt wasn't something that went on continually, we only killed a couple of them, around 5 BS maybe incl a Golem or two.
Goons just get mad when someone shits on their own farming operation
Get a job.
There are five or six of us for every job opening (not that I've ever been eligible for unemployment anyway; everything has been contract work). Even if we all magically were able to fill the job openings - many of which are very high skill positions that require retraining time - that would still leave us with only about a 20% chance of finding work.
Czech Lion, do you have an idea when evenews24 will publish the 3rd part of RMT?
[ 2009.07.05 19:34:54 ] Krutoj > Death just doesnt want to deal with ya thats all
Edit.
Fail post.
Move along
It's not my fault I shot someone with that pistol. Blame the manufacturer for making a firearm that can be used to shoot a person.
One does not talk about Tom Honk.
Having been banned by ccp.. i can confirm getting any fucking info out of the cock suckers is nearly impossible. They could give a fuck about letting you know what you did wrong.
http://www.evenews24.com/2010/12/07/...oos-rmt-trade/
SCANDAL: PL Insider Reveals Shadoo’s RMT Trade
From a trusted source:
“I knew this was to leak sooner or later. I guess it’s better to take the first step and tell you the whole truth myself then to be called up on it later when someone else tells it first.
I will name all the players except an unknown CCP source as he is in danger of losing his job over it. The story is quite simple yet very effective. Back in the days when we were fighting BOB for what they are, scamming dev whores who reward themselves with BPOs, we (Shadoo and I) decided that in order the beat the monster we must become monster ourselves. You think that getting Goons elected for CSM spots was an easy task? Talk about number of favors we had to pull just to do that one, even my secret ties with RAZOR were used just to turn enough players into voting for them so they could get a ticket to Iceland. And all that was done so we can establish face to face contact with a party that shall remain unnamed in CCP staff. The reason for this is that all electronic communication can be traced sooner or later and only face to face contact can be hidden from the eyes of the public. Namely that CCP party was very displeased with internal CCP treatment, salary and status, although already pretty high up in the CCP structure and he needed us as much as we needed him.
Now you have to understand motives for such a team to form up. My motive was a simple hate for BOB, I was ready to do anything just to stomp them in the face and laugh at them with my alt army on forums. Shadoo’s motive was pure financial nature, he is a young man after all who lives in a shithole of a country and that CCP party wanted to change power structure in CCP which could only come as a result of shift of power in EVE. Complex and simple team at the same time. At least at first. I honestly thought that money turned around with trading isk and T2 ships could never match what I make in the U.S. with my standard job so at that point in time I stayed out of financial world of the bargain. Oh boy was I wrong.
First part of the plan was to take over all dyspro moons in EVE as it was main source of income for our enemies. Deprive them of profits and crush them by simple force after that. As you know we managed to turn EVE against BOB, it was not hard after all as they were already shitting on everyone around them. But there was a problem of MC, their biggest ally at that time. This was solved by our CCP insider offering Seleene a job at CCP. Ingenious right? It was Shadoo’s idea, I have to give him credit for that. After that it was very easy to remove BOB, epic fight occured blah blah, you know how it went.
I was the first one to get my part of the deal with BOB down so I thought the job is over for me. Shadoo went on to take over all dyspro moons using army of alts in different corporations controling the area… BUT… there is always a but. Entities who controlled the area had some pretty fucked up leaders as personalities and it was not always easy taking the alt to alliance leader positions. Dyspro moons changed hands often and stable profits were not possible. And as for our CCP party he didn’t seem to move much ahead with his plan to take over CCP leadership, or at least grab more power.
This is when Shadoo was approached by ruskies who were only starting to set up shop. Deal was made, leave our bot operations alone (which were being heavily impacted by the sphere and karttoon’s corp israd) and we wont touch your moons. What moons?!? Well it turned out that our CCP brosef had a brilliant idea. He turned few CCP guys under him and they moved in to solve Shadoo’s income problem. Can you guess what I’m talking about? TECHNETIUM! CCP insider crew did an analysis and deicided to kill dyspro as main source of moon goo and replace it with Technetium. You don’t believe me? What is current price of Technetium, around 60k, right? When was dyspro that high? Entire T2 invention system was built around utiliing huge amounts of technetium and CCP crew knew that. It looked like Shadoo is about to get what he wanted. And he did! Money started pouring in big time after their rapid conquest of Venal moons. I used my financial sector knowledge to advise them on manipulating the market in a way that we would create artificial Technetium scarcity and by removing all big buy and sell orders using our stockpiles as soon as they would show up until people left the market to us. We spread rumours about Technetium shortage and price hikes for months, it went as far as me using Goons to push that story even more, where it happened that thousands of players started hoarding all their ratting income into technetium. Trillions of isk poured in.
And all that success gave us a new problem. Money. There was simply too much of it to use standard paying platforms like pay pal and even Western Union which is untracable as you know since no one really checks where you send your cash. We had to come up with something else. Swiss number account. Secret acount where user pays negative interesst of 1% for it’s money to be stored under a number instead of a name. And being it a Swiss bank all transactions from that account would be secret and all traces of it would be deleted after 24 hours. Yup, my game, as I worked for one Swiss bank at that time and I knew the right people to talk to. The amount of money was laughable to them compared to what they run for some other people in the world but for us it was the solution. Accuont was opened and only Shadoo and me had access to it via ebanking tokens we recieved.
Our CCP party got what he wanted in the mean time. almost unlimited power in CCP when it comes to driving CCP’s future. Yet, as yuo know, Iceland bit the dust few years ago and money problem started surfacing for him. He wanted his cut. The tit was big, plenty of milk to go around, but we already had few extra guys on it, like -redacted, or TheAdj, who laundered isk for us using supercap sales and were awarded a cut. Besides you know both me and Shadoo’s character, we don’t really like to be bullied or blackmailed. So Shadoo tells him to fuck off. Just like that. CCP mofo turns to NC and revived their campaign and starts plotting aganist us and our Technetium monopoly. But know he can not just change the rules of the game and say that Tech is bad, after all he did that with dyspro and now he can not pull the same stunt. He tries to get us out of the game using something else.
Financial police goes trough my stuff (someone tipped them off, prolly CCP fuck), al I’m forced to disclose my complete financial situation including numbered bank account and I declare it mine alone to avoid investigation into Shadoo, Shadoo agrees to it to avoid the hassle and right now we have a bunch of isk-money blocked by internal investigation. My assesment is that we would have to pay some 75% of it as taxes before it’s set free again. Lets just say that I’ll be happy if anything comes to our pockets after this.
There are few loose ends of course.
1) Supercap production – Right now isk is being stockpiled but not taken out of EVE in any way
2) Technetium reserves – We hold enough Technetium to supply EVE markets for next 2 years without getting anything new out of any moon. This is how we contracted supply in the first place.
Right now I can barely play EVE due to this investigation and all the pressure put on me oustide of EVE. I need to get a job again to be able to pay my bills. You all know Shadoo’s income is extremly stretched after he bought an apartment and no income coming from numbered swiss bank account any more. And CCP has 0 evidence that any of this was going on as our CCP ex-butt-buddy made sure that all evidence is gone. All transactions ever made in past were switfly removed from CCP logs by simple script that would run with downtime batch processes eliminating all records tied to names we would give him. Although he hates us those batch processes still run as he would be implicated too much if this wuold be blown out in the public.
Why am I telling you all this? I don’t really know, my concience maybe? I haven’t been able to sleep well lately and I wonder if this is the case. Maybe I’m trying to wash away my sins… who knows.
I know that all involved will deny it, and I have no evidence that I can disclose. You know that chat logs can be faked and numbered bank account is also not evidence as it really serves it’s purpose well with all traces being removed the very day transactions have been made. And I know that Shadoo will probably hate me for this but I have only one thing to say to him “The truth will set us free my friend. May we find our peace again in EVE universe. And greedy CCP motherfucker who turncoated on us will not get a sinle dime even if I had to donate it all to One legged pedofile panda charity foundation.”.
-redacted- out.
************************************************** **********
I guess I need a new popcorn maschine soonor : nice troll ?
Between Buttes and Horus I will never have any E-fame ....... Damn you you dirty whore ..... Damn you to hell!
Durr - New thread was made about this ><
Though this thread contains enough detail about botting to make a convincing case it exists and some people use it. It doesn’t provide any solid evidence of how wide-spread the problem is.
Viewing the contract history on “Horus” as he suggest, shows no contract history.
Flying through systems offers little proof, as you can’t easily determine through casual observation if it is a bot or just a player who is semi afk ratting / mining.
Viewing stats on a system might make you suspicious, but you can’t really tell if that’s legitimate or not. You don’t know if it is the same player farming a system or a rotation of people using it.
But it is clear these bot applications exist, and therefore must be in use by some number of people. And if “public” applications exist it follows that there are also private applications. Plenty of people who play EVE work in technical fields. So if it’s possible to build private bots it’s quite reasonable expect someone has.
It is very discouraging to work on building your own personal wealth or organization through effort and grinding when you know some other dishonest player is able to have it with much less effort and grinding.
When organizations clash to fight over desirable resources and space, the side with the botters is clearly at an advantage. They have more resources, and can easily provide better benefits, such as ship replacement programs to their organization. They can field more expensive fleets and recover from their losses with far less trouble.
The news provided by Horus is troublesome and persuasive. Without solid evidence it is of limited value. One might question his true motives. Could be spite against CCP over some dispute.
Even more troubling, one must assume that CCP is aware of bots. If players can find and build them certainly CCP is aware of it. If they haven’t taken steps yet to prevent them, how can we presume they will in the future?
CCP registered to give a non-official response. How cute.
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