i talked with a dev about this years ago, the reason they didn't at the time was cause they're worried about botting/macroingOriginally Posted by woozle wuzzle
i think that's stupid and no idea if still holds now, but there you go
i talked with a dev about this years ago, the reason they didn't at the time was cause they're worried about botting/macroing
i think that's stupid and no idea if still holds now, but there you go
THE GREATEST POSTER
I agree: I think that is the fear, and I agree it's stupid. It makes absolutely no sense.
It's not like they'd open up a mod editor to accept C++ or something. The UI editor would lack the capability to string commands together. WoW and DAoC showed how it can be managed. As people made creative UI's that took a few benign gameplay short-cuts, they just removed a couple API variables or limited mod effects. If people are going to bot, they're going to bot. It requires having outside programs no matter what.
Just think of how awesome it would be if they did this instead of the Typewriters expansion. Alliances would design their own fleet ui's, industrialists would have their own, it would improve the game for everyone. But no. Instead we get a Toyotathon of bullshit.
If you have seen how macrobots (for Eve .. like easyminer etc) work then its kinda still true.. Customizable UI could make it much more simple.
While you can say that macroers compared to normal players are in minority and developers should think more about majority.. this minitory can still ruin the game in all aspects in the sandbox ( resources cost nothing -> loosing them cost nothing -> wars become pointless etc ..).
Can just look at the "mining dyspro out of blue sky" case which was also done by just few people ..
Of course it doesnt mean they shouldn't continue on improving the interface.. But not always a whole expansion needed for that you can just slip in the updates regular way.
Back to tyrannids.
I was talking with a friend of mine who works in CCP just few minutes ago and raised my concerns about the whole planetary thing. Obviously he cant spoil anything, so we were just talking about the publicly known stuff, but overall I got the vibe from it that not much more is going to change with it (atleast from the game mechanic point of view). Obviously dont quote me on this, as its just a feeling but generally I think this is going to end up with random dots you put on planets and it ejects a can every few days (basically glorified moon mining).
Thats is bit saddening because it will end up as most of the CCP's great ideas (factional warfare, wormholes, etc etc) where they publish something "as a starter" and tell us that there will be more, because they have this vision... And then years later nothing is still done with it and its the same shit. Which kinda pisses me off, because some kind of Simcity in space would be awesome addition to Eve imo (because I like that kind of games).
Personally, I would love something like this:
You pick a planet. You drop down Command Colony. You need to haul in people to work in it. You can also use robots or androids or whatever, but they will be more expensive or something.
People need to eat, people need to be paid. Robots need to be fueled. So colony has a maintenance fee. Also, you need to supply it with food, fuel etc.
You can supply these commodities from market and haul it, or you can produce them on the planet if it allows it.
Your colony grows a bit (1-2 weeks+-) and it starts being visible from orbit (bunch of lights, lines etc). You can select what kind of directorate you will have there. If its free colony with free people (you have to pay those a lot) or prisoner/slave planet (you dont have to pay those, but you have to pay the guards) or any other option.
Once you reach some amount of people / money / materials, you can build something new. Mines, extraction facilities, factories etc. Important part is that you need to build them in range of the command colony. You also select a form of transportation. You can use some train-like future thing or air transportation or even water if the planet allows it (or fluid plasma ships or whatever). Each form of transportation with its pro's and con's. Once you have the mine/factory and colony populated, you can start the production / transportation.
Of course, all the buildings will be upgradable/customizable. You will need some kind of energy source also (typical power plants in SimCity although it can be pretty much anything here). When you reach some kind of population limit, you need to either upgrade your main colony or build additional one. You should be able to build underwater or sky colonies as well.
If a planet is too hardcore for normal population (some plasma giants etc), you need robots as a population and everything costs extra for additional protection / building expenses. On the other hand, you can produce some pimp stuff from those.
If a planet is almost right for human colonization but yet exactly there, why not terraform it? It could take a long time, but it could turn some shitty planet into a semi decent one.
And so on, and so on.. I think CCP is just scratching the top of the whole thing and theres just so much more that could be done with it.
DeltaTeam / GK - ingame
I disagree 100% completely. The custom UI isn't something a normal user can create.
Right now if you want to macro, you download a program that does it for you. With a custom UI, you'd have to download a custom UI and download a bot. The programmer would have to design a matching custom UI to their bot. While having custom UI tools might make it overall easier for the programmer, the end user doesn't see that or care. It doesn't translate to increased bots, because it requires the same (or more) amount of effort from the end user.
The impact custom UI's would have on regular Eve gaming is huge. Every aspect of the game becomes better, so neglecting that because botting receives the same benefit is kinda crazy.
yeah, i hope you're on right. a glorified moon mining interface would be a waste of time.
he's right. currently the horrible font and weird placement of things makes it harder for macros to figure out what's up. a custom UI (which would come as a single install with the bot, duh) could make it trivial
i'm more worried about custom bots that warp out on local spike, then phone home to report hostile ships, or things to control entire fleets using a server/client interface. it'd be like bacon *100.
it's all possible now, of course, but the horrid interface makes it a pain in the ass.
i think a custom UI trumps those risks, but i do see them as valid.
THE GREATEST POSTER
True, also the casual gamer has no idea how to code a bot.. also current macros more or less adjust all your eve settings for you - like fixed resolution/colour count/fontsize/ov setting - with customizable UI they could go beyond that ..
So my point was it becomes much easier for the guy(s) who create the bots to do it like nearly perfect and undiscoverable rather than relay on vague pixel colour/location on screen which now in case the repeating procedures fail somewhere allow to spot the anomalies a normal user would never create (like bumping a can at asteroid for 10 hours) that way finding also the macroer..
Maybe.. maybe not. You said yourself that a regular user wouldnt/can't create the UI anyways.The impact custom UI's would have on regular Eve gaming is huge.
Also looking how hard is for majority (of course can say that now its implemented in somewhat retarted way) to grasp how to save/load Overview and Fitting presets (allready pre-made by other more competent people) I doubt the impact is as huge as you would predict (on individual level)..
So I tend to believe that a customizable UI would create some distinction between pro-gamers (which imo arent the majority) and the daily-carebear and like with brackets/overview settings would allow you to get some game advantages (which is not bad of course)..
By all means customization is what people like ... so I'm just trying to have a small thread derail why the CCP developer had such concerns when he responded to Faife..
But that has no impact on the user.
All of the things you discuss affect the ease of creating the bot. I'm saying that the barrier to entry of trusting, downloading, and operating an outside bot program is still required. So it changes nothing, the participation level of end users would remain the same. That's why the concerns are 100% invalid, they're thinking about it backwards.
And increased bot functionality is easily countered by decreased UI functionality or API variables. WoW left it wide open, saw what variables were used to cut corners, and removed those variables or restricted the UI functions. For example, buttons can't swap out on the fly to eliminate one button bots.
I disagree with every single word you've said. But I'll focus on this bit.
If people are too stupid to handle the complicated issues of the Eve UI, then I am right. Custom UI's would be earthshattering huge and affect every single aspect of the game in a positive way. Every alliance would have it's own mandatory fleet UI mods. Instead of getting complicated instructions, FC's could rely on every fleet member having proprietary buttons and knowing exactly what their fleet is seeing. The impact is ridiculously huge. Eve university would have it's own UI's, one for each course or whatever. Etc etc.
I think this is actually more of a problem with the way CCP has organized their development team. It means that you constantly have people working on different things, and that you are able to constantly provide a large amount of new content, but at the same time it seems that this content is really half finished and not followed through with at all.
The idea that I have "free will" is the only irrational belief that I allow myself.
If I am wrong, I had no choice in the matter.
To be fair I think Tyrannis won't be the end of PI developement, simply because it'll be correlate with DUST. Yet this is at least for me personally is what makes me mad. CCP is putting out a "Beta-Test"-expansion here. You won't be able to attack the planetary facilities, etc. yet, one will have to wait for DUST and a relating EVE-expansion to link the systems. Until then we'll be left with an (even for CCP) half-asses expansion for us to beta-test. I think I even read in one devblog that they're aware that POS-UI's need an overhaul (thought it was in the Tyrannis devblog but I couldn't find it). So while they are aware there's more essential stuff to do, they're giving us some fancy nanite rep paste production cycles and a concept that won't be fully usable until DUST finally hits the store anyways. THAT in my eyes in the outright slap in the face here. They could wait with the PI until DUST is ready and release it then. Nobody is expecting CCP to do a bug- and flawles-job anyway, no need to let the EVE playerbase beta-test a concept that won't be fully implemented with Tyrannis anyways. /rant
The facts have a strong anti-A- bias.
All you guys discussing how a customizable ui would make the game easier to make bots do realize the source code for the client has been in the wild for 2 years right? Even with the changes to the client in the last 2 years I'd bet the core is the same.
http://www.massively.com/2008/04/15/...en-and-seeded/
bots affect players indirectly through economy and unfair pvp.
and stop being rude.
are they still using the same network syntax though? changing it up after a known leak over 2 years is a pretty minor undertaking.
THE GREATEST POSTER
If changing the encryption or communication protocol was an easy fix then wow bots wouldn't have lasted as long as they have, as no one has the source code for the WoW client.
http://www.kugutsumen.com/showthread...sed-EVE-Client
I wonder what happened to that project
do they work by network interception or gui observation?
THE GREATEST POSTER
Your response has nothing to do with what I wrote. Of course bots affect players... Who were you responding to? Are you a native english speaker? I can't tell if you're being purposefully whacky or it's language.
Custom UI's do not affect the rate of bot usage. That's the point: custom ui's won't make botting more prevalent. Bots being easier to create by programmers has nothing to do with the uptake rate by end users. It's the exact same leap of faith and use of technology by the end user. (I'd actually argue the leap of faith is greater, as you give a custom UI control over your account and it can watch you login, making bots less prevalent but whatever)
AFAIK, neither. Any competent programmer can disassemble the target program to figure out what they need to do to emulate it. See the discussion on web based eve client linked in this thread.
IIRC from the lawsuit against WoW glider the company selling it supposedly had revenues in excess of 2.5 million dollars so there is certainly enough incentive there to do the work. Eve appears to be a little easier as it can be decompiled into python, which is probably a bit more readable then machine code.
I actually recall the Devs saying they didn't want someone to have the advantage of a better UI. I always thought that was their way of saying, "everyone needs to use our shitty UI".
Edit: I could really care less about bot'ing. I also feel that's scapegoat answer for them not wanting to give in. That was one of the best things about WoW (yes, I played the game). Customizable UI's made the game more playable and entertaining. In the end, Blizzard adopted many of the extremely successful UI mods as their own, it improved the game.
How hard would it actually be to develop a customizable UI patch? I feel like CCP have a whole bunch of things that are way more pressing that need attention, but this should definitely be on their list of things to get done. It also starts to let them compete with WoW somewhat and I'm sure they would see extra subscribers due to it.
People who macro are going to macro CCP really can't do anything about it and punishing the larger community doesn't sounds like a good business plan.
It's probably not that hard if you build it in from the beginning like WoW and WAR did but with the mess that it is likely the Eve client code base is at this point it would probably be a huge disaster. Have you ever noticed how many places they recoded the exact same menu items in the current eve client?
I think we got off on the custom UI tangent by discussing the ridiculous mismanagement of resources culminating in the Tyrabanks expansion.
They're busy making a (bad) ui for planetary interaction, when the same guy should be doing something else. It already looks like you could ignore the whole scanning/factory/sim part of the expansion. You scan to see where maximum resources are, place and route factories, probably setup a POS off-planet, and that's it. Why not just setup POS's with diminishing returns per POS? Same difference without the bullshit. Dust can interact the same way: taking over the factory cuts off the POS supply. There doesn't seem to be any puzzle or strategy to the planetary interaction beyond "put factory near the stuff".
So even if custom UI is a no-go because they want everyone equally crippled with a terrible UI, why not devote that development time to something else core-related? Fleet combat? Rigs? Mining? Alliance structure? There are so many core areas, like the UI, that are neglected.
woozle you should go for CCP ( shitloads of positions in the *lead* http://www.ccpgames.com/jobs.aspx ) and make Tyra better <g>
pshaw... like I'd stoop to working in Iceland. I'm too busy driving ferrari's with kickboxing girlfriends, etc.
I have a little history on the 'dark side' of this kind of thing. Having made this sort of thing before, you usually hook the process. The function you want to hook, assuming you chose a meaningful one, will be in assembler so you need to know it and you will have to find it by spending lots of time debugging the app. When ready, your own app/your own code is then "injected" into the application using WriteProcessMemory() (Windows only, obviously - Linux can use memcpy) at the hooked portion of the program. The idea is to reroute a call to your own program's code before returning back to Eve. You have to launch Eve as a child process of your own program so that you get a shared memory space.
The UI has absolutely nothing to do with it. In fact, the UI or even the use of a graphics card (except maybe to let the video code init without failing) and a monitor can be completely circumvented. The entire affair can be done externally.
So all in all, I agree with you 100% that you disagree 100% with the poster who disagrees that the UI is somehow going to discourage botting.
Here is an example of some people selling bot software for eve:
http://reboot.gr/index.php?page=9
Does anyone, at CCP or on this forum, or anywhere in the world for that matter, think these guys will be discouraged or encouraged one way or another by custom UIs?
Someone once said the same thing to me and I basically had a similar response
Their company location could actually be a severe block in their ability to hire proper talent. Offices in Shanghai (too low paid, but nice) and Atlanta (mission designers only? lol) are not that inspiring either.
They keyword is 'usually' but most evebots (if not all) dont hook into client process (except maybe reading some logserver output) nor python code but analyze pixel colours/position on screen..
Why do you think in your linked product description there are lines like:
If it could hook into process why the fork did it need to use Optical character recognition and alter the client graphical settings?- NPC names recognition using real OCR algorithm
- OCR recognition and specific alarm on hauler spawns
- OCR tolerance settings
So you agreeing 100% or not doesnt matter in this case (unless you can show some proof of concept like the guy who makes the chatting client for Eve) .. of course for different games it happens (all the Trainers are made that way etc).
Heh found even a thread there http://reboot.gr/index.php?topic=233.0 about ppl getting no reports because of scrolling ( http://img372.imageshack.us/img372/367/localbot2uu7.jpg ) :P
.. so can' t see a red pixel on your screen - means there are no hostiles in localLocMon can't tell what's happening bellow the visible part of local, because it doesn't scroll the local channel. So it can't be used in a system with so many pilots. To maximize the local channel height change resolution to the max resolution you monitor can show.
vOv
I really doubt the real isk farmers use those type of bots, they look more like the kind random people use so they don't have to grind anomalies to pay for their faction fit cynabals.
I have no idea about statistics.. for that you would prolly need to go with a CCP employee to a bar.
But last I checked (allready years ago) the ratting bots at that time were so sophisticated they could:
- warp belts / kill rats
- active tank if necessary (hence all the cap-stable ravens with med/small reppers)
- warp off to safespot / cloak or log in case a hostile or a another person shows up in local
(and thats all with just analyzing pixels on screen and binding specific modules (like shield launcher/booster) to specific keycommands - eg simply placing them in correct slots)
I imagine with the time they are even advanced (check the Phreezes AAAC thread)
I'm just saying that they probably use something that scales really well and is easy to monitor. Some of those ice miners in empire probably run 40 clients at a time, just check any of the ice belts near a market hub and you'll see what I mean.I have no idea about statistics.. for that you would prolly need to go with a CCP employee to a bar.
But last I checked (allready years ago) the ratting bots at that time were so sophisticated they could:
- warp belts / kill rats
- active tank if necessary (hence all the cap-stable ravens with med/small reppers)
- warp off to safespot / cloak or log in case a hostile or a another person shows up in local
(and thats all with just analyzing pixels on screen and binding specific modules (like shield launcher/booster) to specific keycommands - eg simply placing them in correct slots)
I imagine with the time they are even advanced (check the Phreezes AAAC thread)
I wouldn't touch any of those programs with a pole out of paranoia that something bad would happen
If they are so advanced already, then once again I am right. Custom UI's would do absolutely nothing to the bot usage rate. The variable for bot usage is the end user's barrier to starting, not the ease of creation. It's like cracking games: the difficulty of the crack is irrelevant, the means of distribution is everything.
And this is all distracting us from the fact that the Tranny expansion could have been a thousand other better ideas.
But instead we're getting the mining missions from Mass Effect 2...
unsub about it.
THE GREATEST POSTER
no u
(or you know, since this is like a "forum" or something, we could discuss it. But I guess then you might have to budge slightly from your unmovable position)
except you don't want to. you want to complain about how awful it is and have a bunch of people agree with you. your only non-complaining bit so far was the tyrabanks line, though that was good
THE GREATEST POSTER
I don't think he wants anyone to agree with him, as that would take all the fun out of his "discussions."
Anyway, I don't have any real problems with the expansion. I'll go ahead and make a ton of assumptions as there is no telling what the fuck is going on in CCP's head (perhaps Woozle could tell us.) I assume the reason they want to set it up the way they are is to 1) prepare the planets for DUST which they have a lot invested in 2) not set it up as moon mining with planets but something little bit different. To make it where there is more of a process that involves the player. They'd want to balance out the tediousness (mining roids) to player feeling more involved. I just hope every expansion from here on out, isn't focused purely on DUST.
Seems like its very important for you :P
One of the variable for bot usage is also how flawlessly it runs - while noone would use it if it randomly fails 5 of 10 times (because it can't read a pixel bellow scrollbar / the same as cracks if they hang up your system because have overwritten a wrong bit in a memory page used by OS) costing you a ratting BS each screwup but I would bet that half of the 0.0 dwellers would have such an alt and using it if their mates said "look I afk ratted like 1bn yesterday" from which point things will go downfall..The variable for bot usage is the end user's barrier to starting, not the ease of creation.
So I wouldn't be so sure about your 'absolute truth'
It becomes kinda pointless to discuss about the subject when people go like 'there are shitloads of stuff they could have done' rather than about the features/plans developers intended and presented as you could write the same lines before Genesis, Castor or RMR ..the Tranny expansion could have been a thousand other better ideas.
I have a proof of concept.
apparently insurance is currently on sisi as being nerfed. some people with spreadsheets in alliance said that it will drop minerals 35%
*shrug*
THE GREATEST POSTER
It's not pointless to discuss this. I'm not being contrary because of taste. Regardless of the expansion content, some one will complain.
I'm saying that objectively, even if you like sim-mining, CCP has fucked up priorities. I don't see the controversy with that statement.
We're talking about a company that is sort-of responsive to public comment. We can interact with the developers, and they purposefully meet with players. CSM has a real voice. Having a group of sniveling "I guess we just have to accept it, why bother complaining?" players doesn't improve the game. If people could discuss CCP's priorities and reach some form of consensus, then it's quite conceivable that the content of the next expansion could be affected.
We're stuck with the Toyotathon expansion no matter what. But maybe the one after that could be influenced to focus on fleet combat? Or ship fittings? Or something else in the core game that needs attention. I don't even care, but the brick-wall to new players has nothing to do with the lack of planetary interaction.
This expansion is what will give direction and depth to Dust. One of the problems with standard FPS games is the lack of reason for playing them long term. Good units in Dust will have us all competing to hire them to drive other people off of our land, and linked to the eve forums could give dust more depth than any other FPS I can think of. So while it may feel like a useless expansion to the pvp core of eve (and really it is) it is a vital expansion for CCP which will also benefit the huge carebear population that have limited content.
That said this is CCP, and Dust will be 1,000 soldiers trying to kill another 1,000 other soldiers at one frame per month so it'll never work.
Or Eve could slowly die off and kill DUST before it even started.
The idea that I have "free will" is the only irrational belief that I allow myself.
If I am wrong, I had no choice in the matter.
I think they are actively doing (or at least pretending .. as the previous test reports were somwhat funny (well maybe don't feel the need to give anything in details to the community)) no matter the expansion cycle - http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=...nid=3744&tid=1
What is this "UI" nonsense you're talking aboud? In MY time we had a command prompt and loved it. LOVED IT, I say.
Also i am looking forward to Tylenol, my passive income expansion which will pay for all those recon ships I keep losing.
An expansion based around Fleet combat and stresstesting what CCP fucked up with dominion are two totally different things.
/signed
I don't think that we'd get a say in any of the major focuses of for this and next year (well, maybe winter 2011) even if CCP would give a damn, simply because it's all reserved for DUST514 and WiS (if that ever happens). So we're stuck now betatesting unfinished Planet Interaction until and for DUST and the concept around it.
The facts have a strong anti-A- bias.
Well yes and no ..
Dominion as an expansion gave some new stuff for fleet business (like fleetfinder etc).. forked the combat part over though. So ther may be aswell dominion v2 after the tests ..
But as you touched that care to give more details about what they would need to expand here as in content-wise (serious question)?
I had that problem with my desk, it just dug into my forearms and it would get sore there after a while so I got a few woodworking tools and planed the edge off the front of the desk and sanded it back, it is now smooth there where my arms go with a slight gradient up to where I keep my keyboard. Who said all those shop classes at school would be totally pointless?
i have never experienced this. i'm now starting to think i sit at desks wrong
THE GREATEST POSTER
In December, I had the impression from CCP that they were determined to get Dominion right, either to finish it and/or retweak its various weaknesses and imbalances. In the last alliance tournament, EveTV had a dev on talking about getting rid of "ghost towns" and large swaths of empty space and creating larger self-sustaining little 0.0 communities.
So where are they? All mechanics aside, this 'result' has not been achieved.
Some of the discussions I have had with potential renters is that their level 4 missions are working out for them and they don't really see a reason to go to 0.0. I don't want to recreate the whole "nerf lvl 4's or make the ihub anomalies better" discussion, but rather look at the end result: They are not coming out here
I disagree that most empire dwellers do not like, or could not like, the pvp aspect of this game (although some will carebear to the very end), and many are willing to take the risk but still view it as a business decision.
All the broken mechanics aside, it was the supposed-enlargening of 0.0 that got a lot of people excited about Dominion. I'm not asking CCP to fall into a spec creep here or a neverending code project: can't they just achieve the original goal and get more people out here?
edit: Regarding dust, they are operating very heavily on the idea that dust will be successful. What if another FPS takes the games market by storm that year and dust is left in the dust? We'll have all this Tyrrannids crap with no one using it.
Yea, I don't get it either. My keyboard is at the edge of my desk, my elbows go on my arm rests, and my hands sit nicely on top of the keyboard. No contact with the dest at all.
The idea that I have "free will" is the only irrational belief that I allow myself.
If I am wrong, I had no choice in the matter.
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