CVA Actually Does Something: The Musical

[Butter Dog]

yup, i am stating mostly opinion, but unusually for my ill-informed missives, this time i kinda know whats happening

my understanding is that 'if' we push CVA to empire, we'll put in place NRDS and a system of NIP's (ie, no shooty station/pos), we'll probably reset most of the SC apart from AAA (which i think people will enjoy), and we will give away stations like candy to entites who want to try establishing themselves in 0.0

i've not once heard the word 'rent' in any discussions, i dont think thats a goal at all (certainly not from UK side anyway)

its very likely that however roams providence (apart from AAA) will end up red to UK too, so i dont really buy the idea we won't shoot 'piratey' types - they do tend to shoot us anyway

[Suppilappic]

As much as butter dog tries to spin it what he is running is effectively a pirate haven to kill carebears. But he is not offerening anything that is going to attract carebears, and everyone knows how pirates love to shoot at anything that can shoot back.

However i don't see cva/(some of the holders) leaving the prov area. if uk takes it all you are going to get cva basing out of lowsec plus the cva supporters just making life difficult. and the only thing stopping cva from getting prov will be -A- because Uk certainly don't have the numbers.

Despite what you think, nobody actually gives a crap if Providence becomes a "pirate haven." Why can't you just accept it and live with it. UK stated that they will give other players plenty of opportunities, but won't hold their hands. If you can't hack it, then you have no place in 0.0. Better to have aggressive roaming entities there, than a bunch of carebears. Note, that I'm not calling all Providence holders carebears, I actually have much respect for Severance and PXF, who are always eager to get a gang together and fight.

[Butter Dog]

However i don't see cva/(some of the holders) leaving the prov area. if uk takes it all you are going to get cva basing out of lowsec plus the cva supporters just making life difficult. and the only thing stopping cva from getting prov will be -A- because Uk certainly don't have the numbers.

The holders loyalty is to their space. If you want to see what happens to holders numbers/participation if they are liberated of their important space, look at AM and its 150-dd members. The idea that the holders will all base from lowsec running ~wolfpax~ and maintain any kind of numbers is, to me, pretty silly and also laughable to anyone who has seen holders try to i-spaceship pew pew

[Butter Dog]

oh, by the way, what i wanted to do was create a total freespace region - all reds/neuts/blue could dock and use stations as they liked... would be anarchy but also really, really fun (this idea was not shortlisted )

[Ripline]

As much as butter dog tries to spin it what he is running is effectively a pirate haven to kill carebears. But he is not offering anything that is going to attract carebears, and everyone knows how pirates love to shoot at anything that can shoot back.

However i don't see cva/(some of the holders) leaving the prov area. if uk takes it all you are going to get cva basing out of lowsec plus the cva supporters just making life difficult. and the only thing stopping cva from getting prov will be -A- because Uk certainly don't have the numbers.

I'd imagine that's something -A- wouldn't terribly mind. Especially when it comes to timered fights around infrastructure, can just rally up their caps a couple times a week to go nuke yet another disorganized cap fleet. Or the same with regular ships of course, scheduled fights against an enemy of questionable competence sounds like exactly what they'd be after.

[Murr]

oh, by the way, what i wanted to do was create a total freespace region - all reds/neuts/blue could dock and use stations as they liked... would be anarchy but also really, really fun (this idea was not shortlisted )

so -A- turned that down?

However i don't see cva/(some of the holders) leaving the prov area. if uk takes it all you are going to get cva basing out of lowsec plus the cva supporters just making life difficult. and the only thing stopping cva from getting prov will be -A- because Uk certainly don't have the numbers.

Oh god. How come you don't see how retarded this statement is?

[Jacabon Mere]

Despite what you think, nobody actually gives a crap if Providence becomes a "pirate haven." Why can't you just accept it and live with it. UK stated that they will give other players plenty of opportunities, but won't hold their hands. If you can't hack it, then you have no place in 0.0. Better to have aggressive roaming entities there, than a bunch of carebears. Note, that I'm not calling all Providence holders carebears, I actually have much respect for Severance and PXF, who are always eager to get a gang together and fight.

As i haven't even ventured into prov under cva it really doesn't affect me i guess. Its just that butterdog tries to claim awesome nrds space where everyone can go while ommiting the you are going to get gang raped part.

carebears makes providence what it is. whether it forms the basis of something to shoot or something to defend, it makes for fights.

as for the not holding hands bit. for soemone to hold a bit in 0.0 they are going to have to be a fairly large established alliance. or else someone else will just push them out. now prov isn't exactly going to be the most attractive bit of space dirt as you going to have roams going through all the time. -A- needs something to shoot after all.

why wouldn't any small upcoming alliance choose npc space (or even pay cheap rent to atlas) over a prov where you are being put there to get raped is what i am getting at.

i guess i can wait and see. i am actually keen on the outcome, although i am about 90% sure that prov isn't going to be anything like before or anything like what is being promised.

[Suppilappic]

why wouldn't any small upcoming alliance choose npc space (or even pay cheap rent to atlas) over a prov where you are being put there to get raped is what i am getting at.

i guess i can wait and see. i am actually keen on the outcome, although i am about 90% sure that prov isn't going to be anything like before or anything like what is being promised.

FYI, AAA roams and kills Atlas' renters. THERE IS NO ESCAPE.

Yes, if it wasn't pretty obvious already, Providence is not going to be anything like before and nobody has promised you anything. There are tons of people besides Provi Holders and Citadel residents, who would like to get a constellation in null sec. You are not in the bargaining position, you see. Providence will function the way UK and -A- would like it to function, to the victors go the spoils.

[Arkady Sadik]

as for the not holding hands bit. for soemone to hold a bit in 0.0 they are going to have to be a fairly large established alliance.

Unless they have a NIP with the big guys in the area. Which, I think, is what U'K is after: You can go to 0.0 without having to worry about the "big powerbloc next doors" pushing you out, BUT you have to have the organization and intelligence to survive a roaming fleet without your big powerbloc rushing them out for you.

I.e. U'K want to establish a place where people learn to survive in 0.0, while CVA tried to establish empire in 0.0.

Whether U'K's idea works - who knows. Currently, it looks like we'll get to try it out at some point.

why wouldn't any small upcoming alliance choose npc space (or even pay cheap rent to atlas) over a prov where you are being put there to get raped is what i am getting at.

Because you can have your station with your docking rights, and your system with your upgrades. NPC space is no different regarding getting gangraped if you don't watch out, but lacks all those advantages.

i guess i can wait and see. i am actually keen on the outcome, although i am about 90% sure that prov isn't going to be anything like before

I think on that, everyone agrees.

[Malaclypse]

It'll be like NPC 0.0 with conquerable stations. If U'K can't get their fingers out of their asses to "enforce" it, then the region as such won't stay NRDS but become like any other in regards to the general applied RoE. Well, I guess "enforcing it" will look as how Ripline put it.

I'd imagine that's something -A- wouldn't terribly mind. Especially when it comes to timered fights around infrastructure, can just rally up their caps a couple times a week to go nuke yet another disorganized cap fleet. Or the same with regular ships of course, scheduled fights against an enemy of questionable competence sounds like exactly what they'd be after.

You may look down on CVA for enforcing their model + KOS-list onto the region and the holders, but eventually that work is what kept the region NRDS. It's a lot of work. U'K doesn't want to put effort in it, then stop pretending you'd keep Providence a NRDS-region. It's as simple as that.

[Endie]

Despite what you think, nobody actually gives a crap if Providence becomes a "pirate haven." Why can't you just accept it and live with it. UK stated that they will give other players plenty of opportunities, but won't hold their hands.

You know better than that, Dekanor. AAA won't go it alone in the current Eve climate, without anyone to "hold their hands" as you put it? Eve hasn't worked that way for at least two and a half years.

Well, unless you are SE/Coven, I suppose.

[Murr]

Despite what you think, nobody actually gives a crap if Providence becomes a "pirate haven." Why can't you just accept it and live with it. UK stated that they will give other players plenty of opportunities, but won't hold their hands.

Accept it and live with it? We are doing a hypothetical discussion on one possible outcome. What is there to accept and live with?

And I'm really not sure that will be the outcome. An open providence and stations been given away. This is dominion. That space down there is good now and if it goes this way the people given stations will be most probably either friends of the bloc or remotely friends, meaning they are known for either siding or "supportive" to the SC/completely neutral or hostile to its enemies.

[Malaclypse]

Accept it and live with it? We are doing a hypothetical discussion on one possible outcome.

Dekanor has seen the outcome in the Palantír, Sauron told him.

[Suppilappic]

You know better than that, Dekanor. AAA won't go it alone in the current Eve climate, without anyone to "hold their hands" as you put it? Eve hasn't worked that way for at least two and a half years.

Well, unless you are SE/Coven, I suppose.

"won't go it alone" - perfect English, mate. Somehow, I did manage to grasp what you were going to say. Yes, if you wish to put it that way, UK and AAA will still hold their hands, because they will prevent full scale sov warfare in the region.

Dekanor has seen the outcome in the Palantír, Sauron told him.

Would you like to cyber? I'd be a hairy hobbit, and you'll be a sexy elven princess locked up in a tower somewhere up North.

[Endie]

"won't go it alone" - perfect English, mate. Somehow, I did manage to grasp what you were going to say. Yes, if you wish to put it that way, UK and AAA will still hold their hands, because they will prevent full scale sov warfare in the region.

Apart from an arguable comma-splice, my grammar was fine. And if what you are saying (given the inexactitude of your own grammatical construction) is that AAA and UK will cotinue to hold "their" (these putative, novel Providence alliances) hands then I look forward to seeing the results on the general members of AAA as they realise that their happy hunting grounds are gone.

Edit: from what you said maybe you don't know the turn of phrase "to go it alone". It's a very common usage.

[Suppilappic]

And if what you are saying (given the inexactitude of your own grammatical construction) is that AAA and UK will cotinue to hold "their" (these putative, novel Providence alliances) hands then I look forward to seeing the results on the general members of AAA as they realise that their happy hunting grounds are gone.

It's truly remarkable, that after multiple posts on the same subject and detailed explanations, you still manage not to get it.

[Sircussalot]

I look forward to seeing the results on the general members of AAA as they realise that their happy hunting grounds are gone.

The North will be their hunting grounds.



(The day AAA goes more than 10 jumps for pvp is the day Goons stop making fun of Germans being Nazis)

[Vinata]

the day Goons stop making fun of Germans being Nazis

This occurs whenever there are no Germans around.

[Faife]

FCON just warped 6 dreads to a SBU with no support.

that went badly for them.

[Securitas]

Welp, Provibloc just lost a fleet with almost no losses for AAA, Atlas & co.

[Mina Soul]

Welp, Provibloc just lost a fleet with almost no losses for AAA, Atlas & co.

If you take a look at the killboards, you see it was an FCON gang against Atlas, -A- & Co - looks like a leeroy gang (47 vs 166, 82 losses vs 28 kills).


But your statement looks better....

[Ltd SpacePig]

Unless you assemble a different model for providence, following the old one and keeping standings with -A- or the SC won't work. It will be a joke and you'll be mocked constantly about it. This is one of the things CVA understood. To be the boss you really can't ally with anyone who constantly roams providence. How exactly would you hold standings? Be blue with both -A- and all the others you share providence with and them be red with -A-? These things don't work like that.

This is what I've been saying all along. This model does not work in providence. If U'K want to run the show in providence like that.. then they can forget about getting any carebears in there. This is much like the real world.. if we all didn't feel somewhat safe and trust that the government would deal with outside threats we all be having guns and shoot at everybody. Provi is going to be like the wild west. It's really hard to take U'K serious when they keep on with this bullshit, U'K is NBSI where ever it counts and NRDS where it does not count. Get CVA out, install your renters and other pets and be done with it.

[Butter Dog]

We've always been very clear and consistent about why we apply NBSI in Providence. We've been equally consistent in our assertion that we will apply NRDS if CVA get removed. I don't know how many times you can say the same thing, but there we are, I've just said it again.

Also, our version of NRDS does not include forced red standings. It does not, however, stop people from joining together and defending themselved. Pretty sure we have no interest in propping up useless alliances or installing puppet leadership (like CVA did with AM). If that means we have less useless carebears living in Providence, and instead see more independent and capable types, then that is a good thing from our perspective. We have no wish to be the internet spaceship police for macro-ratting alliances and generally useless fodder.

[Pripyat]

Fucks sake what is this discussion about? Are people arguing a Provi controlled by U'K would be totally different than a Provi controlled by CVA? Well, no shit.

[Malaclypse]

Fucks sake what is this discussion about? Are people arguing a Provi controlled by U'K would be totally different than a Provi controlled by CVA? Well, no shit.

No, we are arguing about whether or not provi will stay a "NRDS-region" under the model layed out by butters, with the majority not believing it will stay NRDS in contrast to butters' claims.

[Butter Dog]

No, we are arguing about whether or not provi will stay a "NBSI-region" under the model layed out by butters, with the majority not believing it will stay NRDS in contrast to butters' claims.

Do you know what NRDS is? I know that question looks like a troll, but I'm being serious - because NRDS is an ROE which applies to alliances or corps, not regions of space.

If the inhabitants of a region apply NRDS, then I suppose you could call it an 'NRDS region'. Apart from that, the association is tenous at best.

[Malaclypse]

For what it's forth, I started my 0.0 life in FDN-"ruled" GW; so yes, I am familiar with NRDS. And both FDN as well as CVA were/are enforcing NRDS policy among their "followers"/holders/not-outright hostile neighbors. Those who wouldn't comply to it, were set hostile if they haven't been marked as such already. So while technically of course a region itself cannot comply to RoE, the dominating entity/ies can apply to this RoE.
And just to close my response I wanna show you a quote of yourself were you are speaking of a "NRDS Providence"; Providence is a region name if you may know.

They have created an NRDS environment where people like to roam about and gank ratters. Some people think it would be shame if this was lost. But the unique variable here is not CVA. CVA are not an essential component of an NRDS Providence. They are merely an essential component of their particular Amarrian vision of NRDS in Providence.

If the inhabitants of a region apply NRDS, then I suppose you could call it an 'NRDS region'. Apart from that, the association is tenous at best.

Yes, indeed, for everbody else not bitter pooch it's tenuous at best to speak of a NRDS region in general or "NRDS Providence" in particular. Gosh are you stupid.

[Butter Dog]

So if we were the dominant entity in Providence, and applied NRDS, what would that make the region, in your view?

[John Smith]

So if we were the dominant entity in Providence, and applied NRDS, what would that make the region, in your view?

AAA would be the dominant entity in Providence and it would make it one of their satellite regions. hth

[Butter Dog]

It's true that AAA would be the force which deters territorial invasion, but their only presence in providence will be roaming gangs, so I don't really follow your logic?

[Malaclypse]

So if we were the dominant entity in Providence, and applied NRDS, what would that make the region, in your view?

Well, it's a highly hypothetical question since in regards of power projection as well as in regards to the plans you have for the region, U'K is not interested to be dominating the region and the power projector would be -A-, not U'K.
But IF U'K would be the dominant, area-controlling, power projecting entity in Providence applying and enforcing NRDS-RoE, then Providence would remain a "NRDS region", colloquially. But again, neither does that come close to the model you described nor in that case would U'K be dominant, at best being a sort of shadow ruler relying on the power of -A-. As said, very hypothetical question you brought up there.

[John Smith]

It's true that AAA would be the force which deters territorial invasion, but their only presence in providence will be roaming gangs, so I don't really follow your logic?

So are you, when AAA run through shooting the people you install there, going to shoot AAA or not?

[Cippalippus]

Not to mention the real issue here which is that CVA are a cool alliance of level headed people and U'K are a bunch of gay pets.
This will turn Providence in another AAA-controlled wasteland.

[John Smith]

Not to mention the real issue here which is that CVA are a cool alliance of level headed people and U'K are a bunch of gay pets.
This will turn Providence in another AAA-controlled wasteland.

You don't like reading threads before you posts do you? This is just what we were discussing, not some real issue that no one had even mentioned.

[Panem]

This was FCON's last chance to defend the I-Hub and therefore the system, since we don't have the caps to match the SC, so we decided to suicide some dreads to try and kill the SBU; we didn't know Atlas had logged Moms off in 9-F, so our dreads died horribly for no gain.

Apart from that, given that it was 45 FCON vs 150 odd Atlas/-A-/U'K/Sodalitas XX/Daisho Syndicate (all there for the ~good fights~ obviously) we softened them up a bit with bombers first, then warped out BC fleet in. We didn't even have a chance to reship and warp in a second time, because the I-Hub was destroyed very quickly, and they all left again.

All in all and interesting fight; I know you guys are there to win, but could you please stick around a bit longer next time, I've still got 15 ships that haven't died yet :P

The battle report:
http://killboard.fidelas-constans.co...d&kll_id=22355

Panem

P.S. one of our guys spazzed out and warped to a planet instead of his POS, and promptly got killed; I hear lack of sleep is a bad thing ^^
http://killboard.fidelas-constans.co...l&kll_id=22456

[Butter Dog]

So are you, when AAA run through shooting the people you install there, going to shoot AAA or not?

No, and it shouldn't matter. ATLAS renters are not blue to AAA and deal with AAA roaming gangs. I don't see why people are insisting that UK swear in blood to protect someone they give a free station to from ebil roaming gangs. They won't get territorially invaded, if they can't handle the odd roaming gang they know where highsec is.

[Butter Dog]

Not to mention the real issue here which is that CVA are a cool alliance of level headed people

Yes, their decision to invade AAA space then commit suicide was very level headed.

[Malaclypse]

So you're comparing U'K with Atlas now... Gets better by the hour. Atlas can stand on its own feet (regarding sov), U'K can't. And if you're asking why this is important, then ask yourself who's gonna ensure you will be able to hand out stations (and retake them if an owner gets for whatever reasons inconvenient) in the first place; it'll be -A-. You're relying them on them to project any kind of political power of note, hence -A- - and not U'K - will be the real powers to be.

[Yorda]

No, and it shouldn't matter. ATLAS renters are not blue to AAA and deal with AAA roaming gangs. I don't see why people are insisting that UK swear in blood to protect someone they give a free station to from ebil roaming gangs. They won't get territorially invaded, if they can't handle the odd roaming gang they know where highsec is.

Because the hordes of farmers arn't going to come rat it up in your space if you're not atleast going to attempt to defend them. The whole point of CVA was to make it seem like the region was well defended or atleast have some defense. If you're just going to let certain blues roam around the space unopposed then no one is going to bother making it the ganking haven that it was.

[Cippalippus]

You don't like reading threads before you posts do you? This is just what we were discussing, not some real issue that no one had even mentioned.

See you are just wasting your time discussing things with Butter Dog. But do go on if that's what you like.

[Ltd SpacePig]

Looks like both sides are unhappy with the new provi Well CVA's move into catch wasn't a very smart move... the burning of provi just makes it all even worse.. i guess nothing last forever.. so we have a handful of hotheads to thank for this So.. keep the fire burning

[Yanna]

It's true that AAA would be the force which deters territorial invasion, but their only presence in providence will be roaming gangs, so I don't really follow your logic?

Let's say the UK and some hypothetical future Provi residents camp a gate - for example the Assah gate, as UK has recently taken G-5. An -A- roaming gang making a detour through Derelik comes through. What happens?

The only solution that does not result in all around shooting is "UK will not camp gates", which would mean leaving the region defence (not sov defence, but defence against roaming gangs) to a bunch of unaffiliated small alliances. A gang of 30 is nothing to a region-wide force; but it is a lot to two dozen of 100 men alliances, each in separate fleet.

Your proposed solution does not seem feasible..

[Butter Dog]

I have to admit, I don't understand the point you're trying to make. If we were camping the Assah gate and AAA roamed in, we'd not shoot them as they are blue. I don't see what the issue is?

Are you saying that if we give free stations to people who want some 0.0 space, that we also have to police their empire gates for them? I'm sorry but I cannot see why this is necessary, or why in your view we would be unable to camp gates. We can camp gates all we like, and shoot who we like according to our ROE.

I would hope that any entity which lives in 0.0 is adept enough to not die of fright at the prospect of a roaming gang somewhere in the region. Also, if people blue to us started shooting AAA, we'd just let them get on with it. This happens already, AAA and UK don't match exact standings.

You talk of 'region defence' - can clarify what you mean by this? Do you mean defence against roaming gangs? Because territorially these guys would have nothing to worry about. Seems like a pretty sweet deal to me - freedom to manage your own standings, guarentees of no sov warfare, and the only thing you have to worry about are the odd roams.

[Nicky D]

The obvious solution is that the region-link owners will just give docking rights in exchange for blue status with any pirates who want to camp their entry-point 23/7, assuming they don't buy the system to camp it themselves.

[Butter Dog]

Because the hordes of farmers arn't going to come rat it up in your space if you're not atleast going to attempt to defend them.

Why would we want hordes of farmers in our space? Populate providence with entities who want to have a go at establishing themselves in a piece of 0.0 to call their own under a system of NIP's with the largest neighbours = good. Hordes of useless bears = not so good.

[Butter Dog]

So you're comparing U'K with Atlas now... Gets better by the hour.

No, I compared providence residents with ATLAS pets, and pointed out that AAA already roam ATLAS pet space for pew pew. Think about that in the context of what you were saying

[Yorda]

Why would we want hordes of farmers in our space? Populate providence with entities who want to have a go at establishing themselves in a piece of 0.0 to call their own under a system of NIP's with the largest neighbours = good. Hordes of useless bears = not so good.

My point is no one will want the space if they know they have no chance of defending it and they're just going to get farmed for kills constantly.

[Suppilappic]

My point is no one will want the space if they know they have no chance of defending it and they're just going to get farmed for kills constantly.

Ok, Yorda. Nobody will want the space, you are right. Why does it bother you? I honestly don't understand why a bunch of people, who live on the other side of Eve map, are trying to give UK advice or demand from UK to run the region the way they think is right. It's just none of your business.

[woozle wuzzle]

Butter Dog, you're being reasonable and non-inflammatory. But you're also wrong. Let's run with your comparison: AAA roaming ATLAS pet space is like AAA roaming Providence.


U'K are AAA pets.

So the power enforcing no SOV threats to Providence is AAA.

AAA will roam Providence and shoot the residents.


See how your comparison is crazier than Alex? It's like ATLAS roaming their own space and shooting renters. It kind of defeats the point of renting...

[Yanna]

I have to admit, I don't understand the point you're trying to make. If we were camping the Assah gate and AAA roamed in, we'd not shoot them as they are blue. I don't see what the issue is?

The operative part was "and some hypothetical future Provi residents". They would be neut (or red) to -A-, which would most probably start shooting them. Now you have a UK force whose gang is fired upon by blues. What do they do?

Are you saying that if we give free stations to people who want some 0.0 space, that we also have to police their empire gates for them?

I am not saying anything about what you should do - just asking questions.

BTW, they would not have empire gates, would they? SYS-K and -A- currently hold two of them.

You talk of 'region defence' - can clarify what you mean by this? Do you mean defence against roaming gangs? Because territorially these guys would have nothing to worry about. Seems like a pretty sweet deal to me - freedom to manage your own standings, guarentees of no sov warfare, and the only thing you have to worry about are the odd roams.

Yes, defense against roaming gangs. The "guarantee of no sov warfare" is true for low sec and NPC 0.0 - yet you do not see people flocking there.