[Providence] CVA and LFA Culpability - Jan 29, 2010

[Viper ShizzIe]

Paxton Federation Forums

Gents,

Now that D-G is firmly in -A-'s hands, when do we get the CVA and LFA leadership to publically acknowledge they got us into a war we never had a chance of winning? Further, are they going to take responsibility for what they've done and reimburse Fire Storm for the station they lost them? I feel bad for the Fire Storm boys, as they worked hard to get that station in place, only to have it taken from them when -A- decided to teach CVA and LFA a lesson.

Its obvious to me that LFA does not share the same goals/principles as does most PXF members. I don't know enough about CVA to make any sort of judgment about them. Ultimately, there is no military solution to this situation--we do not have the military might to hold or take back D-G, regardless of whatever propaganda CVA's leadership claims about a "years-long" struggle, without -A- simply not contesting or abandoning it. If -A- wants to hold onto that system for the next 5 years, they will, despite how many ships we throw at them.

I feel very strongly that CVA and LFA should be held accountable for their actions. There needs to be some sort of penalty--some sort of public admonition; it should be something with teeth.

VK

i hope some thing would be done but im sure CVA will give the whole its not good for moral speech lets wait till its over and by then its could be a year down the line

There are a lot of hard feelings about how this war started and who's had to pay the price for it. However any "public admonition" or "punishment" is surely just going to drive a wedge between everyone. At a time when we all need to pool our resources and work as a cohesive unit to have any chance of standing our ground against -A-, this seems a little short sighted.

I agree that something needs to be done to ease the pain of losing D-G, and to prevent rash decisions being made in the same way in the future, but we need to tread carefully. Although I concede that I have no idea how the issue should be approached.

Long story short, if we're all going to start bickering and in fighting, we might as well just start paying -A- rent, because it won't escape their attention and we'd be fools to think they wouldn't take advantage of the situation.

I'm not saying the issue should be ignored, just that the last thing we need is a civil war. So lets do it right.

Simply put LFA and CVA need to go hat in hand to AAA and ask for them to leave with an assurance of not encroaching on their space again.

Failing which, we better have a PLAN to stem the invasion.

So how accurate are these numbers of CVA only fielding about 90 or so people?

I checked -A- board and it looks like its true but i dont know if that is accurate to take that info from a KB? I wouldhave to think they had at least 200 or so there?

Don't rely or trust in numbers on killboards for such huge fights. Many Killmails will most likley not have been generated. Also remembe on -A-s killboard only our losses will show up - so it does not say anything about total participation.

I wrote pretty much exactly this and then you got in ahead of me...

I'll add to it that usually if we'd killed a few -A- then obviously numbers would be better. But since we didn't really...

All it gives a good picture of is how much everyone lost.

Dreams of standing against or going against -A- should be far gone now. We obviously don't have 30 titans and hundreds of caps to field, which they do, as well as the experience of such fights.

I'm really sorry for the huge losses we suffered yesterday due to mostly the horrific lag, but IMO we should cut our losses and let it be. I doubt -A- will continue with the invasion.

Also, a good defensive is a strong offensive when it comes to sov battles.

Announcing such a think in public will only create even more diversion between the holders, and that is the worst thing that can happen. The future will bright though, and we will manage. And remember, BoB also took fsw-3c once

I agree that at some point and time, LFA and CVA should claim responsibility for the actions that lead to the loss of D-G and even perhaps offer compensation to PXF and especially -FS- since the loss effected them the most out of all the member corps, but I honestly don't see it happening and to try to force the matter would do noting more than can cause moral to deteriorate even further then it already has, also quite frankly if we want to take back D-G and hold the other systems we will need every pilot we can muster and press the issue would most certainly increase the gap between us and LFA.

And for those who think -A- will stop with D-G I wouldn't count on it remember this is the 2nd time LFA has tried to get a foothold in CATCH, I am sure they wish to punish LFA for the transgression and the best way of doing this is by going straight through us.

...more diversion between the holders, and that is the worst thing that can happen...

I'll respectfully disagree with you about this. It already exists--no sense in trying to deny it. "Allies" that drag you into a war you don't want aren't allies at all. They took advantage of our holder-obligated loyalty when they unilaterally invaded Catch.

There absolutely has to be some sort of accountability here. They can't get away unblemished by this--there's no justice in that.

Are you serious? What the hell kind of mind control is LFA using here?

As I said a few days ago, the lesson was not learned months ago and it looks like it isn't being learned now. It's a very simple lesson. LFA is a cancer. Creating a division between LFA and the rest of the Holders is the best thing that could happen. If you want to save Providence, removing LFA is the first step. Or does Paxton like being fucked up the ass over and over by those stupid little dickheads?

Do you not see what this whole fiasco has done to the name of Paxton and Providence? Even before this, LFA was constantly responsible for tarnishing the image of Paxton and the other Holders. LFA kills more innocent neutrals that some of the reds that roam Providence, and because of that the idea of Providence as NRDS is a complete joke to a lot of people in New Eden. Telling the true story of LFA and the Holders, even going back before this current situation, is needed if you ever want to salvage the good name of Paxton and Providence.

I am just completely astounded to still see calls for unity with LFA, who right now I'd bet are laughing at their little Paxtonite meatshields.

This time CVA is as much accountable as LFA. And Severance is still the holder known for killing most neutrals

But what i do agree on is that this can use a public statement/discussion that isnt intended to make sure no ones feelings are hurt, that only results in people collecting their anger and will burst out one day.

Related to that, maybe someone should ask if VVA had some issues with their ships, since they didnt seem to be capable of reaching DG. (Didnt check how much they sent to yesterdays fights, but they might be relative small, sending 3 people is just sad). More precise, every holder alliance who sent less people than goons should reconsider wtf they were doing.

And when busy it would also be nice to get better relation with sylph again.

Sylph is disbanding.

Where did you get this information?

Relations with Sylph, at least on the higher levels, are excellent. Relations between Sylph and LFA, are quite cooled at the moment.

Trust in your leaders guys. Gib and the rest of the high council are very clear on what went down. There will be discussion I'm sure at a holders meeting in due course and at that time your grievances will surely find their voice.

I had no interest in Sov wars, I've been there and done that and it's a commitment that is very hard for me to keep up with when I have a job, responsibilities as a parent, school governor and CEO. Unfortunately you have to play the hand you are dealt and regardless of our feelings we need LFA and CVA to help keep what's left of our space in our hands.

So lets just shelve the grievances and get into fleet and try and keep this steamroller from completely flattening everything we have worked so hard to build.

The point being is this is neither the time or place to be discusing this. Lets wait until the hostility's are over and we have taken D-G back we don't have the option do something that may make the situation worse, we need manpower cooperation and resources to prevail in battles to come, and telling a group to apologize or else will not make them want to help us.

Then we remain with many people who are not happy because issues never got resolved, since we arent taking back DG anytime soon. Everyone who thinks otherwise is kidding himself.

To those thinking We are all silent, read this, I posted it to CVA leadership and Holders Leadership for all to see. Lord Gibguard also shared his thoughts in a similar manner, but not as vocal as I did. But whatever the result is, it will not be in public channels.

Would people only have listened to me, when I opbjected these plans. So far everything that I have feared that could happen did happen, while I (and PXF HC) got laughed at. The first thing that needs to be done, is removing those that did these Mistakes of getting us into this position take a step back.

This plan (what plan, it was planned badly beyond belief) was doomed to fail from our first TCU anchored. I remember before dominion, I pointed out so many things about what must be considered if we then really are on an (in my opinion useless) landtrip against a powerblock more huge then BoB ever was. How could those in the planning be so blind, and actually expect this to have any kind of chance to succeed?

Anyway, moving forward. What about asking -A- (who are easily able to completely steamroll providence, if they then chose to do so), to actually learn what they want, and go back to the cold war we had before, clearly knowing that we cannot match their numbers with their powerblocks in a big sovereignity war. I am here not stating to just give up, that would be a foolish thing to do. Just, maybe we also should consider this option.

We all knew, there response would be in PXF systems. I still do not get it, Why we were Completely left out in the planning? Why did we not even get a seat to be involved in the planning of our very homes? Why did this plan go forward, without any kind of serious comminications with the other holders? Why did we not learn, from one holder going on a rambo run? Why where there no consequences at all on their leadership for this? Suck it up and ignore it?

I regret, that I did chose to be the nice guy when I had the chance to take that matter in my own hands. And while I must be by now well known to the CVA Leadership for my constant questioning things, I am still at a somewhat high hope that stuff like this can be solved, and that we actually start again talking to each another.

Keep in mind, that PXF did for years this:

- Secured southern providence with an unseen dedication, regardless of our daily losses
- Strictly lived to the NRDS ideals, yes, we do not should 1 day old characters in NPC Corporations, ever, what I cannot confirm for other holders
- Being very openly to the local citizens, granting them any kind of help they need, and getting those who want to nicely be involved in the fighting so they get a chance to.

Yes, I do know that we have chosen to be on the front. And we did enjoy any last second of it. But what did we get in return from other holders for this?

- Not even being allowed to be on the planning of the defense of our very own outposts.
- Not wanting to get involved of any kind of talks about this expansion into catch, yet it is well known who will get hit by the retribution fleets.
- A neighbour that over the years seemed to openly seek for conflict about how we manage our space,
- A neighbor that goes rambo on our hostile enemies without telling us a word, then being surprised why we are upset.
- ...

Even, if you now fully ignore this wall of text, then at least have the courage to answer this question: Why where we not at least on some basic level asked / invited on talks about this invasion. Why was this so poorly planned beyond belief, even with me sharing my thoughts about it, and me pointing out the very obvious flaws once I got informed (one day after invasion start)

Anyway, if we do not want to see what we created burning for a very long time, we better get our act together, and get leaded by persons we all can trust to make the right calls.

Thanks El T. That was a good message.

I had a long convo with Lilly last night while burning drunkenly around D-G. I would post the log but my typing is terrible when I'm drunk it seems. ops:

The general gist of it was that -A- are going to utterly destroy LFA, and I mean utterly, and then piss off back to Catch. Whether this is what happens or not is a different matter of course.
Either way I had a laugh talking to the -A- guys in D-G with no smacktardary involved and am now paying for it with an epic hangover the likes of which dwarf the hangover from xmas and new year. :lol:

[Rotor]

Took -A- a few ops and a turkey shoot to make CVA&Pets throw each under the bus, very nice post.

[Viper ShizzIe]

moved from foreplay

[On The Warpath]

They still think LFA randomly went and did this by themselves?

I would have thought the Providence wide CTA's would have proven that wrong; as compared to before Dominion when LFA made a move on -A- sov independently.

[pinoyzzz]

Oh drama/blamestorming.

Paxton just seems like a character caricatured in a bad battered-wife-syndrome movie, with their pussiness.