[Providence] And Dawn Breaks - Jan 30, 2010

[Viper ShizzIe]

I've been in as many CTAs as I can be and those I haven't been able to join, I've heard about on this very forum and from those in corp/alliance that were there. Many of the ppl I hear from constantly complain about AAA "meta-gaming" us.

K, I can definitely see where this view-point is coming from. Our lack of ability to even protect our Force field PWs show us that AAA is willing to go to whatever length they can to win, even stooping to low-level tactics, such as spying.

The other factor I hear about most often is CCP related, but IMO shouldn't be overlooked (mainly due to our enemies' unwillingness to overlook it either). It isn't as many would expect, the lag issue, but the grid load issue.
So far, every fleet I've been in, we've stood a decent chance at actually giving it a fight and even possibly winning. I commend our FCs for being able to tell the difference in these lag heavy engagements. We field sub-cap ships that cost us maybe 300m a piece (including mods on some fits) vs cap ships that cost as much in hull alone, but in almost every engagement I've been in, loading grid kills us before we even get a chance to fight. This cost us the fight for D-G, IMO, because if it were a lag-free environment, I believe we would have been able to over power them.
This error in playability that CCP is so far allowing is what really made it possible for AAA to take D-G in the first place, but it's not theirs alone to use!
I'm no FC, hell, I've got less than a year to my first Avatar, but I can see the forest through the trees enough to see that, as of right now (until CCP fixes things), the ability to load grid before your enemy is a large key to victory.

So this is what I suggest: let's keep hitting D-G hard. Let's get everyone and their alts logging into D-G so our enemies don't have a chance to load grid before we're already there. Let them deal with the issues of trying to defend grids already loaded with our fleets. Let's give them the black screens so many of us have experienced in our fights to defend D-G and let them taste our wrath as they die without even firing a shot!

I'm not calling for a CTA, we've had enough of those that I've seen ppl grow tired of them already (not that understand this view point, but accept it as it's inevitable). I'm not even asking miners to give up their day jobs to assist, but if you can and want to, this would be a worthwhile effort. This isn't something that can be accomplished within a 24 hour period, but we've got the diversity in TZs to make things difficult on our enemies 24/7 if even a quarter of our numbers were to show up. Without their ability to load the grid before we do, AAA has nothing on us (as seen in the "final stand" for D-G, we fielded more than our fair share of Cap ships) and I believe we could have held the field if not for the black screens of death.

If we can stand together and keep the grid loaded, we will be able to push back these invaders to our space. We just need to be able to use their own tactics against them. Let's see how they like it when they warp in to find us already there! :twisted:

-My 2 Cents-

We lost 4 reinforcement timers in a row where we could decide the timer. Now you expect us to win 4 times in a row?

Sorry but with the current NAP fest that is 0.0 I dont see us winning back DG anytime soon, they can pretty much call whoever they want for help since no one has much to do besides shooting NCs and everyone is NAPped to each other.

I think every single post I've read by you, I've seen nothing but criticism and negative remarks. I think the only valuable suggestion I've seen is "replace the FCs", without you offering to be one yourself. Saying "we can't do this" holds no weight without offering alternate suggestions.

So, let me put this simple question forth to you:

How do YOU expect us to take D-G back, or at least, not lose any more systems?

This. And because they have everyone NAPed they don't have anything else to shoot so their Titan sits in space somewhere not being used.

well then im gonna make a suggestion that everyone will hate.

who are A's rivals,
goons for one.

now your saying that A has the advantage cause of there alliances with people. lets get some aswell.
i mean think about it,

goons have experience doing this and there already at war with A.
but then the bad side of its goons.

maybe its possible to ask them for assitance and they can fit with us if the accept nrds it in providence and holder space. elsewhere they can keep there alliances policy of nbsi.


A are bringing in friends and allies, then so do we, because we are fighting a multi region war here, yes we are just invading catch/defending provi, but we are fighting a aliance that have friends all over the place.
surly we want to win this war, who cares about whatever rep or publicity it gives us,
let the flaming begin

I think you can only set the timer once for the station and the ihub.

Maybe you can change them when they are OOR, but that was what? 5 mins each time?

Yeah lets NAP Goons who are on the brink of disbanding if you can believe all that info on CAOD... and oh forget all that provi stands for and for what provi was respected so we can take a system back?

Dont get me wrong... i'm a Paxtonite and getting D-G back is significant to us... but Goons? Seriously?

Our rep was tarnished by that whole mess with the AAA Carriers attacked by us WITH the Goons... shortly after we invade Catch... and now you suggest we should NAP Goons? What the hell are you thinking?

I guess i'm not the only one that would leave Provi if CVA decides to NAP Goons... and i doubt CVA will even consider it which is good...

Goons are gone (or at least as good as gone. Syndicate, Joining NC that are that things I heard them thinking about) from the south so there is no natural foe for the -A- block left in the southern part of eve or for any other of their allied blocks like Stain block, Atlas block, Tri block and IT block. Yet -A- didn't even have to batphone Red Overlord or Atlas in to level out our number advantage that the holders might have over the -A- block alone (ignoring that they already have the larger cap + super cap fleet + the better skilled pilots). So who do you think we can ally with to help us out? The drone space russians that are working with Atlas in Geminate and Vale? Or the NC that is busy to defend on two fronts vs. Tri block and Atlas block? I don't see any potential ally that could help us overcome our deficits and as they now control the timers in D-G I can't see us taking the system back unless they decide to be generous and gift it back

I never suggested replacing FCs nor did i blame FCs for what happened ever. If you want to flame me, go ahead and join the club, you arent the only one. But please get your facts straight.

I have been there every evening a reinforcement timer ended and also when the SBUs were placed. Everytime i was there in a sniper BS, except thursday when i was in a dreadnaught. Additionally I am from paxton which were without doubt the one suffering the most due to this (Firestar especially since it was their station). So please forgive me for having some sense of realism left.

And @ cneagle, while many would have disagreed, i was one of the people who had no problem with at least cooperating with goons (never seen that much problems with goons), NAPping them wasnt even necesary, making sure timers and attacks were such that AAA had to be at two places at the same time would have helped. However that is all past tense, since goons are now evecuating delve and querious, we wont be getting help from them. What is left is NC who really doesnt have time to help anyone and PL who probably cant get enough people to kill an Atlas ratter. If you really want to attack them now, which is imo pointless, then you just need to lag out the system. Remove eve-uni from KOS list and ask their help, get the amarr and caldari militia in, and everyone just sit on the ihub/station until it leaves reinforcement. However since we have been outnumbered most of the time by AAA and co i dont have that much faith in that method.

And finally how I plan to not lose more systems, lets hope AAA wont attack more systems (the hope part can be replaced by diplomacy maybe), because they will run over us.

I don't think our reputation counts for much outside of Provi itself but the goons have a crap reputation with their allies anyway. We attacked one of the few groups who liked having us here who had warned everyone else that they had our backs if anyone tried taking advantage of the sov loss nightmare. If we're concerned with reputation, that would have been a bigger problem for us.

We need to do something about the spies. I'm not saying we'll get them all but they've been pretty sloppy lately. I have a couple of ideas but I obviously can't detail them here. At a very basic level, we need a coalition security team.

Why not start a heavy recruiting drive in the LVL 4 mission runners. We'll get moar snipers since many of them will be in a BS with T2 guns. Frankly, not knowing how many of the right type of ship are available was a serious error before the operation started. Recruit LVL 3 runners to run massive behind enemy line harassment campaigns. Kill their troops in ones and twos before they reach the front lines. Control their space.

The loss of one station system isn't a big deal in the long run. The only real problem we seem to have from its loss is that people seem to be on the verge of breaking. Let's do something about that. Take a (short) breather and fix the problem with ship types and spies.

How much time does it take to build a few titans and train our dread pilots into them? We can worry less about theirs if we have many of our own.

id did say the idea wouldnt be liked. but as people have said in this topic and others that we arnt ready to do this on our own.

be it numbers or experience,
you can say this is a learning experience, but for some people, ie pax, this is a very costly learning experience.

it is the sign of a wise leader to know when to ask for help. im not saying Who we should ask, as im not sure on the whole diplo front,
but if FC's know when they need help in a fight, see this war as a larger fight, we know we need some sort of help. be it lagging out systems or what not. if we cant do this on our own, would it not be better to ask for assistance and get none than to not ask and there be some waiting.

anyway im jabbering on.

but a final quote i like that is helpful with the current situation
"Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts." Winston Churchill

So one of you told, that we need to make friends with goons. Well never trust goons I will say. They tell that they help us and help our fights, but in real eve there isn't any of that. We have nothing to offer to goons... Providence? I don't think so. Because providence is eve online desert, there is nothing good. No moons, no good rats as looking from carebear side things. With pvp we are good, but not so good. We have ppl and numbers who are able to fight, but as I seen those fights passed days. We are useless against the NAP fest in the south. Entire SC is blue to each other. And the train has gone with us long time ago. If -a- continues the attacks d-g close systems, we may just say we lost this war. Issue is deep in our politics, we need to find friends, but who? Eve isn't same place it was 2006 or 2007. Everything is changed. Why so many alliances has closed is because there is nothing good to anymore. We all know everyone and there is no more challenge. So with going into -a- space we lost our system in the end. And now we have woken up the beast, we trow the meat front of this monster and it will only come closer to us. What about idea of perma camping d-g? I say what point is with that, we can not do anything not yes, not close months. We have change to pray and hope that -a- won't come closer to Providence. Still if we want to win this battle. We need better FC-s who know how things going to be. Sorry if I will insult someone, but 2 days of fighting before we lost caps and support we sucked. We need old peolple who can lead us into fight and knowing what to do. 2 years expirence is nothing what we are against. So old fc-s who are under rock, must come out and lead us. Moral is very low in providence atm. and it is our own fault. We failed the main reason in providence, what is just be and let things to be. Ok -a- made ops and things into our space as we did against to them, but it was just fun both sides. As I told : Train has been gone for us. There is noone in the eve who can help us. IT, SC is Nap with atlas and so on. Russians are nap with atlas and as I understand whole eve is under peace. Ofc not NC what is dying. So the full force is targeted there. So what comes next is just hope nothing else

From what I have read in this thread, the dominant opinion at the moment is
'-A- and their huge list of allies could roll right over us, so lets try not to annoy them, and maybe they won't come any further'

But I ask you, why shouldn't they come further? This war has seen a large number of inactive -A- resubscribe, and even though it has been suggested they could theoretically attack us with only U'K by their side, they have called in all their allies every time, and their allies have turned up. This war is drawing reds to Providence because there are fights to be had; it is keeping -A- and friends alive, giving them something to do.

Now to address the matter of the suggested invincibility;
The -A- block:
-A- 2032
Systematic Chaos 2911 (currently distracted by the situation in Delve)
Ushra'Khan 1376 (have grown by almost 500 members since the summer, not for the better imo)
Atlas 3025 (currently distracted by the situation in Geminate)
Total 9350

The Providence Block:
101010 Alliance 205
Aegis Militia 689
Ascendent Dominion 199
Cold Steel Alliance 696
CVA 1328
Dark Taboo 860
Destined for Glory 259
Fidelas Constans 663
Golden Rule Alliance 325
Ishuk-Raata ED 269
Libertas Fidelitas 1026
Motivated & Determ. 152
Paxton Federation 756
Sev3rance 805
Sylph 425
TransWarp Ventures 306
Tread Alliance 682
Twilight Federation 150
Total 9795

The -A- block is spread over 12+ regions, and attempting to expand into Delve/Querious and Geminate at the same time as their Providence campaign; we are concentrated in one region, with all our ships and equipment right here, easy access to high sec and we are defending our space.

But we are inexperienced, right? And our hoards of T1 fit Frigates and Battlecruisers couldn't hope to overcome the trained T2 fitted Battleship and Capital pilots that the -A- block have, right? Ok, lets take that last statement as a given (and I rather suspect it isn't), there are 48 outpost systems in the Providence area and some systems without outposts. It took -A- a week to take D-G; one might think from the posts in this thread that this occurred with little effort, that they just moseyed in and took it (again, I suspect that wasn't the case). If we continue to perform as we did in D-G, i.e. fail to learn from mistakes, and prove to be incapable of learning from experience, it would take -A- 50 weeks to take the station systems, and a few more weeks to take the non station systems.

I would hope that in the probably 14-18 months it would take the -A- block to take providence, our T1 Frigates and Battlecruisers will have turned into Sniper Battleships and Capitals; our experience can only grow with time, so our performance against -A- can only improve. I also hope that we can use this war as a recruiting tool to pull more willing PVPers into Providence on our side. Anyway, the facts have been presented, draw your own conclusions.

Now as to the matter of whether to try and take D-G back or not, well, that comes down to a simple question:
What do you want out of playing EVE?

I want to have fun, working together with people I enjoy spending time with, towards a common goal; Operation Deliverance is that common goal. No matter what the outcome of the next 18 months, I want to be able to say 'We did our best and had fun doing it'. Even if I find myself in Domain in 18 months, I seriously doubt I will have changed my mind.

Panem

(CVA Sniper Fit in 30 days, CVA carrier fit in 5 months ..... training)

Missing Red Overlord and The Initiative from potential -A- helpers, and also people from "Stain Block" which seems to be -A- satellite now as well. Those guys won´t show up unless -A- was pushed to HED by superior force though (probably).

Sadly that list includes quite some entities who might have blue status, but arent holders and cant be expected to show up in force day after day.

Now as to the matter of whether to try and take D-G back or not, well, that comes down to a simple question:
What do you want out of playing EVE?

I want to have fun, working together with people I enjoy spending time with, towards a common goal; Operation Deliverance is that common goal. No matter what the outcome of the next 18 months, I want to be able to say 'We did our best and had fun doing it'. Even if I find myself in Domain in 18 months, I seriously doubt I will have changed my mind.

100 times this.

Excerpt from another post:
"When CVA first set foot into 0.0, we knew that it was a distinct possibility that we may be pushed back to empire. In fact if enough of the right people turned their eyes in our direction it could be an inevitability. This has always been the thinking

I can certainly understand how people coming late to CVA (and some holders) may be used to the status quo, may think that things would go on in perpetuity, but living by the pity/charity of others is no way for an Amarrian to live. If -A- and friends have the wherewithal to push us back to empire they should. Keeping us alive as a plaything, while fun for individual pilots (including me!) is insulting. (note this differs from being alive because they can't be bothered due to :effort. It leads to the worst kind of RP EVE has to offer."

I have seen a lot of participation by thecitadel members, and they have been turning up day after day; remember that a lot of people come to providence to experience their first 0.0 and PVP. As long as the leadership is there, there is usually a good response from thecitadel.

As for the potential -A- helpers, why not include IT, the NC and the Drone Region residents who could all probably have fun killing providence off. Hell, throw in low sec pirates and mercenary corporations and we could probably push the number of potential combatants up to 30000. Then while we're at it, lets discount everyone but those people who have space in the immediate are of D-G; well that puts the fight at a much more un-winnable 30,000 to 2000, but you can go down like the Spartans!

My point is, the numbers don't matter a *, and I don't think that anyone should use numbers to try to point out how invincible -A- is. I put the numbers in my first post to point out that the forces aren't all that skewed in the -A- block's favour.

Panem

And then scalding pass and great wildlands (Wicked creek) alliances, who are Atlas pets... + IT alliance from Fountain, AAA C + and yes whole stain wagon is blue to -a-. This NAP fest has like 9350 + extra 5000 playes (some are unknown). And some say that sys-s and -a- has more fun in provi than taking delve (IT alliance thinking)...

The question that pops into my head when looking at this list is this what will this huge power block do with itself once we're out of the way? (If that's the plan at all) Who will give them pvp if they're all blue to each other?

What's the political situation with the northern sov holders, such as xXDeathXx and the like? Maybe they'd be looking for some fun against AAA(forgive me if I'm not in the loop on this one)

But it doesn't include thecitadel who probably make up a third of our CTA forces.

alot of post and comments floating around, which is needed, as people do need to air there thoughts, better out then in :P

and as Aralis said, when accounting for numbers we are forgetting alot of cit members, i mean hell if we could get everyone in cit to come along we would win just due to sever crashing.

but the thing being is that most people in cit just dont care, they are here for themself and let the pvpers protect them. i wish there was a way to force them to fight but there isnt.
the war isnt over, not by far. this is nothing but a skirmish, many times in real wars, key locations are taken then retaken by battling sides, and this is something to keep in mind, because from what i see of new sov its hard to defend systems then it is to take it.

only problem i can forsee is with them having there titans in system,unless we are gonna throw everything at them how can we get around there titans?
any ideas?

also one point that has been raised up here before is that this war is going to take along time, its a battle of wills and trust.
everyone is also learning from this just like in real life battles. instead of blaming the FC's, give them a chance to correct mistakes made, learn, thats all how we become better at this game, from learning from mistakes of our own and those of others.

"We need old peolple who can lead us into fight and knowing what to do. 2 years expirence is nothing what we are against. So old fc-s who are under rock, must come out and lead us."
being a small fleet FC myself, would just like to make a comment about this. with every patch in the game there are new things to learn, ships change constantly new fits are desinged and each ship that you come up against will possible have a different role that it used to. ie look ath the change of the falcon, SB's and now MOMs with fighter bombers.
old FC's, unless they have still been fcing, would haev the current knowledge of the game to make those right choices, and its the new people that experience it everday that have a better c hance t turning this around. fighter bombers were a new experience and im sure people didnt knoww hat to expect from them , so for the FCs to make decisions about and involving them is a hard call to make.

give the Fcs a chance to work up new ideas and such, dont abandon all hope on them from one fight.
just think of WW2. the british fell back from france due to overwhelming numbers (aswell as other things)
and held on for a long time, but then came back with there allies and took back what was invaded, let us do the same

We need one victory, whether it be killing a Titan, taking one of there systems, killing off a couple motherships, wiping the floor with one of their fleets...anything.

[Alex Clomsaver]

Look at all those fucking roleplayer names. Dragonfire Rainwalker hahahahahaha

[RansomList]

Cant help having a digression here

Malacay Dragonfire

Alhambra Rainwalker

Why are all RP names so fucking retarded?

I see this in pnp all the time. You have a generic fantasy setting and suddenly everyone thinks 'astolay dragon nipples' or some such bollocks is an appropriate name for a human being.

This doesn't reflect the period of human history such genres are basing themselves on in any way, so the inspiration must be coming either from literature or the player themselves.

Is the player just trying to be a unique or are they aping one of a multitude of shitty fantasy authors that think fantasy must be entirely divorced from reality?

I suppose their saving grace is that they are more creative than Anime fans...

[Mvtaylor]

This cost us the fight for D-G, IMO, because if it were a lag-free environment, I believe we would have been able to over power them.

Without their ability to load the grid before we do, AAA has nothing on us

Yeah lets NAP Goons who are on the brink of disbanding if you can believe all that info on CAOD...

What is left is NC who really doesnt have time to help anyone and PL who probably cant get enough people to kill an Atlas ratter.

Remove eve-uni from KOS list and ask their help, get the amarr and caldari militia in, and everyone just sit on the ihub/station until it leaves reinforcement.

Why not start a heavy recruiting drive in the LVL 4 mission runners. We'll get moar snipers since many of them will be in a BS with T2 guns. Frankly, not knowing how many of the right type of ship are available was a serious error before the operation started. Recruit LVL 3 runners to run massive behind enemy line harassment campaigns

My point is, the numbers don't matter a *

My tl;dr highlights.

My old corp was thinking of joining Paxton after Raining Doom died but the moment they told us their requirements we all had a laugh and joined TNT instead. We weren't really up for passing their Nine Steps of Trust*

EDIT- and apparently at least one member of Proviblock reads these forums by the looks of the other topic. Make a fucking combined killboard will you please. Or at least a public CVA one.

*This may not be the exact name, although it was something equally ridiculous

[RansomList]

My point is, the numbers don't matter a *

We 'playing' the same game?

EDIT- and apparently at least one member of Proviblock reads these forums by the looks of the other topic. Make a fucking combined killboard will you please. Or at least a public CVA one.

Well Hardin pops in occasionally...

[Alex Clomsaver]

My tl;dr highlights.

My old corp was thinking of joining Paxton after Raining Doom died but the moment they told us their requirements we all had a laugh and joined TNT instead. We weren't really up for passing their Nine Steps of Trust*

EDIT- and apparently at least one member of Proviblock reads these forums by the looks of the other topic. Make a fucking combined killboard will you please. Or at least a public CVA one.

*This may not be the exact name, although it was something equally ridiculous

Haha, Raining Doom! Thats the name of the shitty IRC renter I was trying to remember!

Anyways quite a lot of Providence residents read this forum, the 0.0 Politics in-game channel is full of em as well.

[Mvtaylor]

Just to set a meaningless record straight... RD never paid rent.

[Ripline]

So far no commentary on Manny's big wall-o'-text announcement? Interested in seeing the reaction to that, especially with the deadline approaching now.

[ThemePending]

more Churchill and ww2 comparisons please

[Panem]

We 'playing' the same game?

I meant how pointless it is to try and compare alliance strengths by their theoretical numbers; obviously numbers in fleet matter :P

Panem

[ginlaan]

So far no commentary on Manny's big wall-o'-text announcement? Interested in seeing the reaction to that, especially with the deadline approaching now.

I believe the reaction is going to be what many do not want to hear and that is we are at war with -A- its not going to be ending anytime soon. I am just a grunt but that is what i am feeling.

[somethingawful]

first "heroes" evacing to empire succesfully spotted:

http://www.ushrakhan.com/alliance/ed...&kll_id=102796
http://www.ushrakhan.com/alliance/ed...&kll_id=102828

and apparently the hauler was the oneiroses alt too

"it would take -A- 50 weeks to take the station systems, and a few more weeks to take the non station systems."
if the fights go in the same onesided way provi will run out of fighting members faster than -a- can knock stations down

[Team Dresch]

Hm.
I'd heard a rumour that LFA were being stripped of holder status.
Maybe those LFA guys heard that too.

[Tyrael]

Durka's quote is a laugh, recruiting PvE folks to fight in sov warfare... I suppose both require patience though.

There isn't a way to make a combined killboard until ccp officially makes one - go to -A-'s kb for future large battles if you want the most comprehensive overview because they are the largest alliance involved

[Malaclypse]

Durka's quote is a laugh, recruiting PvE folks to fight in sov warfare... I suppose both require patience though.

There isn't a way to make a combined killboard until ccp officially makes one - go to -A-'s kb for future large battles if you want the most comprehensive overview because they are the largest alliance involved

You should get in touch with whoever handles the NC killboard. Or Southern Coalition killboard. They surely can tell you how there is no way for a combined killboard.

[Lou]

Alhambra Rainwalker

Alhambra is a bottled water distributor (www.alhambrawater.com). I lol'd.

[Murr]

Haha, Raining Doom! Thats the name of the shitty IRC renter I was trying to remember!

Anyways quite a lot of Providence residents read this forum, the 0.0 Politics in-game channel is full of em as well.

Hah, yeah that's the name, I couldn't remember it either.

And fucking semantics but they were more of pets in this case, they didn't pay rent. They were amongst all these other small (and most of them terrible) alliances they were calling in together with the mass and with no standards at all recruitment they were doing during the dronelands war. IRC somehow was thinking that losing corps left and right isn't a problem when you can keep recruiting new ones.

[Mvtaylor]

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/Intrepid_Crossing

Which they definitely aren't doing now

[Pripyat]

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/Intrepid_Crossing

Which they definitely aren't doing now

You know what's going on when Starfleet and Marquie-X are two of the major corps in an alliance :cripes:

[Alex Clomsaver]

Hahaha, like half of them are corps that were previously in IRC but got the hell out when the going got rough and their latest recruits were from Maru'kage.