[Providence] metagaming; personal thoughts - Jan 29, 2010

[Viper ShizzIe]

From the Paxton forums

Logged in this morning after i had to leave the battle early...

I hear and read a lot about metagaming and posbowling and people seem to be very upset by it.

To me spying is not metagaming. Do I like it? NO. But in a way it shows how much more willing the enemy is and how far they would got to reach their goal. 2nd spying is using an ingame mechanic ( so not metagaming) aquiring a pos pw with your spy or vent details is not metagaming. The latter maybe borders on it but imo still valid as a tactic. Do i hate it YES It sucks and makes you wanna go out on the street and beat up random people ( but eve does that to me in general too so )

Our enemy was better organized, has vastly more knowledge on fighting big fights so we lost . On the next fight i say we can only get better. And as I said before the fact that they brought so many to take the station ( 1600 local) means they surely think we're an enemy that they don't underestimate ( so hurray for us )

Last for all the guys not convinced: If tonight some guy acquiers the pw to a hostile pos and we can bump a titan out... Are you the one staying home and sayin 'oh no , it's metagaming'
I know where i'll be ; circling that bitch at my optimals chuckling about my first easy titan kill... but meh maybe i'm just a bad person.

Call it whatever you like it, it is just a sad part of eve because CCP doesnt bother fixing the crap and likes to attract sociopaths.

Regarding the titan, no i wouldnt attack it. I have no problems with NAPping goons or whoever else, but i leave that crap to others.

we're not talking lag here ... what do you want ccp to fix then other then lag?


and on the titan: you're nobler then me then but maybe i'm a bit more misanthropic then you

Standing (alliance to be precise) based POS's, so you dont need a pass to let a friendly use it.

The problem you have is that passwords are a stupid mechanic for safety in a POS, it should be based on standings.

That aside the important thing to learn is that Fleets need alliance only POSs to stage capitals in. CVA/PXF/LFA/AM/-7- and all the others need their own POS to go to with a password known only to the guy who onlined the POS.

Plan 1 was good, cyno into a deep safe load system. Warping to the POS was the mistake, with competent bubblers a fleet can be effectively locked inside a POS The jump in by caps needed doing later and moving directly to the gates for the SBU shootout. This coupled with a well bubbled cyno in position would have afforded us a better chance as both gates were comparatively clear of hostiles and maybe we could have won the day. I'm pretty sure we would have all died regardless of the Lag due to their obvious superiority in both skill and numbers but at least one or Both of the SBUs could have been taken out.

Spying and espionage is critical to success, you need to know what is going on and as an FC you want as much information as possible this means scouts in system, scouts in obvious staging locations, roving scouts watching for concentrations of pilots in odd places. You want a spy on coms to feed intel back to the fleet of their plans their composition. POS passwords and theft/bumping is the next stage in that and maybe the point at which you stop. But you need to get it that far at the very least.

eHonour doesn't win wars, and I want to win, I didn't turn up to lose.

Yep the standing thing would be a great improvement ( see i can agree with people :wink: )

There is not much point in arguing about defintions of what metagaming is and what metagaming isn't as the approaches, views and opinions to this subject will vary and common ground obviously never will be found. And even when all of this is just a game, it is astounding how low moral standards, ethics etc can be for some. Therefore I'm personally more than happy that I do not know any of these betrayers, spies, exploiters or whatever you may or not may call them in RL.

I have mixed feelings when it comes to spying. You have to intentionally set out to betray people, something I know I wouldn't be able to do and still sleep at night.

Yet the advantages of having spies on your side can't be ignored. By taking the moral high ground we put ourselves at a disadvantage, and the odds are already stacked against us.

Overall though, I would much rather win a battle because of our skill and determination, as opposed to how many people we manage to screw over to make it happen in an underhanded way.

"Overall though, I would much rather win a battle because of our skill and determination, as opposed to how many people we manage to screw over to make it happen in an underhanded way."

I agree 100%, but years of metagaming and ordinary spying has forced most "powerhouse"-alliances into not agreeing with this statement it seems.
They see our view as childish while we might see it as pure
= We are yet virgins at bigtime sov-warfare, the ppl in AAA though has been "raped" a lot and now take it for granted = stupid not to do it.
And indeed, game-mechanics makes it worth it, so sticking to ones ideals in this issue might be costly, against a entity that do it to you it might even be considered utterly moronic for a objective viewer, this is but a game after all.

I hope our ideals can survive this conflict, I think it depends on how willing AAA-members(and or leadership) are to continue superior numbers-warfare in Providence.

While I agree that the use of broken mechanics in this game is occasionally distasteful, it would be foolish to restrict ourselves to "purity" in this war. We saw the results of such thinking in the Korean war, where French officers would seek out their equals in a melee with a white band tied to their caps to issue the challenge. The Koreans, not caring so much about honourable single combat, rather thought the white bands were a beautiful way to identify enemy officers so those could be shot first.

Espionage, and even using broken game mechanics, is not metagaming to me in this instance. It is levelling the playing field. Against an entity that will use any and all means available to it, restricting yourself to what you think of as "fair" is not fair at all, it is handicapping yourself because your conception of fair does not mesh with that of the enemy. -A- does not consider its use of the game mechanics to be unfair, and I have to agree with them. We have the option to use these exact same mechanics in the exact same way, yet we choose to not do so. The fact that these game mechanics then screw us over is not their fault, it is ours for refusing to accept that they exist and are an important part of large-scale warfare.

No, it depends on how deep CVA and LFA will crawl for AAA and admit their error.

For metagaming : We do it too (out of corp hauler alts for example), and I really think (expect) CVA to have spies in AAA/UK)

No matter how I look at situation, I cannot picture how we can beat 15 titans and 15 moms. They are way too buffed and have big advantage in lag. Moreover, lagfest is unbearable.

Also, there are ROL and Atlas, who will happily jump in, and enjoy the meal.

Come on guys - we are at war! War is dirty. And I think no war in history was ever won just by fighting. It's always also a question of knowledge about the enemy. Why do you think every country has its own intelligence agency? Information is crucial. Sun Tzu, the grandmaster of strategy himself, has written a whole chapter on using spies at war (Chapter XIII: The use of spies). Let me cite the first few paragraphs of that chapter:

Sun Tzu said: Raising a host of a hundred thousand men and marching them great distances entails heavy loss on the people and a drain on the resources of the State. The daily expenditure will amount to a thousand ounces of silver. There will be commotion at home and abroad, and men will drop down exhausted on the highways. As many as seven hundred thousand families will be impeded in their labor.

Hostile armies may face each other for years, striving for the victory which is decided in a single day. This being so, to remain in ignorance of the enemy's condition simply because one grudges the outlay of a hundred ounces of silver in honors and emoluments, is the height of inhumanity.

One who acts thus is no leader of men, no present help to his sovereign, no master of victory.

Thus, what enables the wise sovereign and the good general to strike and conquer, and achieve things beyond the reach of ordinary men, is foreknowledge.

Now this foreknowledge cannot be elicited from spirits; it cannot be obtained inductively from experience, nor by any deductive calculation.

Knowledge of the enemy's dispositions can only be obtained from other men.

Hence the use of spies, [...]

Think one can not explain better, why to use spies... It's not dishonorable. It's a waste of resources, if we don't use them.

-A- Block has Stain Block napped, has Atlas Block napped, has Tri Block napped and has IT Block napped. So unless they lose their fun in coming to Provi our odds in terms of numbers are already impossible to manage and they have still their edge in this very topic of this thread. Lets see how long it will take for them to get tired of poor africa ... errr I mean Providence

There was a AAA 'spy' logged into our vent channel after the fight last night and we were all chatting. He thought our stance on spies was naïve and also did not believe we did not have spies as he said they had clear-cut evidence of at least 2 provi spies in AAA. Believe what you like but I really do hope this no-spies position is just a front and we do have spies in alliances that are a threat to us. A few of the guys last night had a go at our AAA 'friend' and I just cringed at their comments. Let's get real people, if we want to play with the big boys then its big boy's rules.

It is not the sort of thing I would do – but I don’t think any less of our enemies for their spying and metagaming. It is a known part of the game – and I imagine takes some forethought, effort and skill to do well.

I cringe a little when I see people complaining about it on the public forums. We know it is done, and for it to have had such an impact simply indicates we failed to counter it effectively.

Not trying to be argumentative, but the "big boys" rules also involve NBSI. Everyone else in EvE thinks NRDS is suicidal and foolish. I personally have no problem with regular spies, i.e. passing information along, but there is certainly a slippery slope in which you have strike a balance. Providence used to be about ideals--and beyond all of that CVA "Amarr Victor" nonsense, there is a lot to be learned in this region. I contend we should hold on to those ideals. Despite our best efforts, -A- could beat us "fair and square" any day of the week, regardless of how much meta-gaming we use.

I don't like meta-gaming at all, even our use of out-of-corp haulers (even though I understand their perceived necessity). Also, there's obviously a good bit of operational security that needs to be evaluated. Regardless, lets square away those things we need to square away, and press. Like I said last night, the good news is that we only have two jumps to get to the reds now, instead of 4.

If we don't have spies in our enemies alliances, then we are fools. If you hold forth that honour is better and metagaming is not "cool" and we shouldn't do it, then be prepared for living in Empire.

With out of corp haulers i can agree since wardec mechanisms are horribly broken. In general most 'problems' in eve can be related to alts existing, but that will most likely never change nor will CCP give us the tools to find them, but thats another discussion.

And pretty much what Kroll said, not everyone needs to be a douchebag in eve (although sometimes you start doubting it). (And i also die a little inside everytime i see someone outside CVA say amarr victor).

"In role-playing games, metagaming is the use of out-of-character knowledge in an in-character situation. A character played by a metagamer does not act in a way that reflects the character's in-game experiences and back-story." -- Wikipedia

So as you can see spy != metagaming. Please don't confuse the two.

We all metagame to some degree, but when it directly impacts the out come of a huge capital fight. Such as pos bowling its a problem. And not something I think we need to do in order to achieve our goals.

As much as I hate it, I have to agree with Kirith.

its not about honor. Its about this being a game. Sometimes winning isn't as important as playing.

Meta-gaming as I have understood it in regards to EvE is doing stuff OUT OF GAME to gain something in-game = like hacking a enemy-gamers computer / fire your employee when you learn he plays eve and in a enemy alliance!(hehehe)/ physically or mentally harass someone out of game, or even abuse.

There was a time when UK people contacted CVA/-7- that a spy/defector was planning to offline some of their towers.
UK and CVA treated each other with respect, and had a gentlemen's agreement not to place spies in each other's organizations. These times seem to have passed. CVA so far has condemned any spying activity, and with so many alliances and corporations in Providence, an effective counter-intelligence program is hard. Also, withholding information seems to hurt us more, than them, as people often have no clue what is going on.

When Bob and AAA were allied versus Goons and NC, NC made an offer to CVA: start an offensive against AAA, and we grant you Northern Catch. CVA declined. In fact, they sort of made a deal with AAA: no sov wars between us, and AAA would reduce their spying activities. A deal was also reached to have no sov wars in the first month of Dominion.

Once again, in recent days it seems that these deals are no longer valid.

All is fair in love and war. If it doesn't violate the EULA, go for it.

I agree with myrddhyn. Eve is a fairly good simulation of how things go down in the real world, minus the terrible lag. There will always be some kind of spying going on even if CCP fixes the pos bumping "bug" (i.e.: reds are not allowed to get inside pos shields even if they have the password).

Instead of whining and being so upset over this, maybe we should think of infiltrating some spies of our own in -A-, UK, etc.

The status quo was working, enjoyable, and healthy. This past two months has not been. Somehow we need to recreate this exact situation. We want a Cold War, not a Hot War, because its the only thing we have the skill, numbers, and resources to perpetuate. Hopefully the smack-down yesterday will remind people of that (and I'm not saying any of us needed the lesson).

A deal was also reached to have no sov wars in the first month of Dominion.

That deal only ran up to the 1st of January, if I remember correctly. It was done so our titan build is not in danger because of the silly LFA actions.

I know, but it hurt Providence a lot that we were first to break the peace.

True, as -a- would not have broken it.

Agree. NRDS is a noble idea, but it's pure suicide. Nowadays every red in provi run around with a neut in the front always. Or a neut with cyno.

You know, eventually, this topic comes up about NRDS versus NBSI. Without a doubt, NRDS is the nobler of the two ideals, but as such it does have its inherit risks. One of them is that we risk more by not shooting every neutral in sight. Another is that a neutral alt can be used to scout out where blue forces are.

But, whenever a reply like this comes up, I sorta gotta laugh at myself a little bit.

NRDS isn't NBSI, but it does bring alot of things to the table that NBSI can't. True, alliances that run NRDS will have a much harder time training their people to be effective in combat, to remember to bring the right ships, to remember to listen to the FC and not gab about something that is totally irrelevant on TS. Yet, if it weren't for what CVA has put up here, I probably would have left Eve a long time ago. The corp I'm in may never have gotten a chance to break into 0.0. NRDS as setup here allows us to do the 0.0 thing while still having real lives outside of Eve. We may not become the next Goonswarm, but NRDS Providence has allowed tonnes and tonnes of people to have fun, and decide for themselves how seriously they wanna play the game. So don't knock it NRDS.

That being said, there are definately things that could be changed with the stance on Metagaming being one of them. I don't think we need to be as serious as the major alliances are, but we do need to train ourselves. AAA may not always be around to back us up should CVA getting WTFBBQBOB'ed again.

[xutech]

Other kids' games are all such a bore
They've gotta have rules and they gotta keep score
Calvinball is better by far
It's never the same; It's always bizarre
You don't need a team or a referee
You know that it's great, 'cause it's named after me!

[RansomList]

:sun-tzu:

[Ripline]

Interesting discussion, seems like a levelheaded bunch to me. Imo one of those leaks which make the source look pretty good.

[ThemePending]

I facepalm hard whenever someone mentions real world conflicts when talking about eve.

[Murr]

I facepalm hard whenever someone mentions real world conflicts when talking about eve.

same here. It just feels :WRONG:

[terranraida]

same here. It just feels :WRONG:

i abhor people who quote sun tzu and shit.

[Viper ShizzIe]

Irony?

www.kugutsumen.com/showthread.php?5627-[Providence]-metagaming-personal-thoughts-Jan-29-2010

(Cut and paste, not sure how to get the brackets to work ok in a link)

[Murr]

fail

www.kugutsumen.com/showthread.php?5627-[Providence]-metagaming-personal-thoughts-Jan-29-2010

[secshunayt]

:sociopaths: