Just like Internal Affairs prevents corruption, eh?
oh wai...
Just like Internal Affairs prevents corruption, eh?
oh wai...
OK... so I'm guessing R0ze is a non-native English speaker? That's fine, but your responses don't make any sense.
Internal Affairs was created after the T20 incident, no one could ever seem to contact them and they never did anything. They were disbanded a year later, might be two.
Hooray, this is now a T20 thread!
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Not sure I would call Blizzard's sever QC that awe-inspiring. I think they initially believed they could host 15,000 consecutive players per server/shard/whatever, technically the node could but their database couldn't. Dropped it to 10k. Dropped it to 5k. Was eventually stable at 3.5k or so from memory. Later on they improved it marginally but could never get up very high which was the reason they ended up having a gazillion servers.
I barely classify WoW as an MMO, in terms of community it is basically a marginally expanded version of Diablo, everything about the game is at a micro level. You have small instances of 5, 10 or 25 man content. They are not thus severely limited by software and hardware technology. There is very little community interaction.
EVE has a significantly harder time because there are no bottlenecks, your fleets aren't limited to a small fixed groups and the battles aren't instanced, the technological and coding requirement to pull off something like EVE is extreme. Games like WoW and EQ are basically the old mud structure games with a pretty GUI slapped on. CCP has done a far better job in terms of game balance and the like, all races are equally viable, most ships have good uses and if you really don't like your own race's ships you can cross train.
CCP does many things very well and we should not lose sight of the fact when we criticise them for garbage expansions. I'd like there to be more interesting stuff in terms of space, from lots of interesting shit to explore and shit to do in space, spend the effort introducing 100 more combat missions, stuff you can do in a wider variety of ships, I'd like to see missions you can do in low sec that reward a lot more than L4s that can be done in PvP ships with pvp fittings, bring a lot of people back into low-sec to give pirates something to do.
They are just spending a lot of time and resources on stuff not related to space combat and improving that experience.
Edit: They also need to make mining more interactive and enjoyable, it is fucking terrible.
The central point I'd make regarding WoW is that they know their game (PVE purple lootz), and they're pushing that game to the absolute limit of quality. It's basically a PvE game. I don't enjoy it whatsoever, but there is a very serious depth to it. They took the old-school mud genre and ramped it up like a formula 1 racecar.
CCP doesn't seem to know their game, hence the ridiculous decision to make sim-planets. They made a great core game, but can't upkeep it for shit. That has nothing to do with sharding or complexity, but on the big-picture focus of where to spend your development dollars. At some point the excuse of complexity should give way to simply being a shitty execution of a great game.
That's why I'd argue WoW's QA and development to be praise-worthy. They seem to have mastered running an MMO, rather than simply creating one and letting it run wild.
@Woozle (no, English is not my native language.)
Just this after noon, I logged on to WOW and said in guild chat... "Holy shit! 30 second module lag just to mount!" Was met with two replies of what is "module lag" but besides the point. That game suffers from lag much more often than EVE does. It may never reach the point that the lag does in the stupid large engagements in EVE, but you can be sure for 4 hours during peak times there will be lots of lag, and WG will be fucked and out right unplayable during those times. Once or twice a week BGs and Northrend instances will crash out and servers restarted an hour later. Bla bla bla lag and server issues are not only unique to EVE.
Getting away from lag to the "really fantastic job at QA and development" I can tell you of 3 quest that I know of that have been out since WOTLK that to this day still are imposable to complete because they require special encounters that have always been bugged and imposable to start. 4 months ago I leveled another toon and was going to try one that was a level 71 quest... it still didn't work... put in a petition and it was answered 3 days later when I was already level 74 and had long since gotten rid of it. The GM told me they were aware of the bug, and advised I skip the quest. Super QA. Every patch comes with plenty of funny as hell bugs. The vast majority of which get fixed, but some just get ignored and the player base takes a "eh, that is just bugged you need to do this or that or skip... ect."
@Cycle
"The first company that comes along following EVE's model of ruthlessness and open gameplay while understanding QA is going to kill them, no doubt."
As for new games... lol. What game other than perhaps LOTRO has had a clean release. WOW had the worse of them all. EVE's sucked ass. Lets look at the recent ones.... AOC? WAR? Darkfall (LOL!)? MO(Not looking good), STO? Jumpgate? What game or company in the past few years has shown a clean anything?
Once games reach a point where they are either successful or soon to die, if they survive that point unless some big company buys it to destroy it (SWG) they get polished. WOW is polished. EQ2 is polished. And as many of you would disagree it is my opinion EVE is very very polished. Anyone else who has been playing it since start would agree. They keep polishing, and adding more. CCP has done well with this. Yes there are bugs. There will always be new bugs. We can help them with this, but to say CCP just ignores them is just not true.
Having played lots of games, when I think of EVE I thing of the following
1) Always new stuff. They are always putting in new stuff, that doesn't really devalue the old. I love this about CCP. The game just keeps growing.
2) Lag. If you have 800 don't jump them all into that system full of 500 reds you will still die! Only in EVE do they even give you the opportunity to be that fucking dumb.
3) Going from nr2, EVE has taken zerging to epic levels. The hugeness of it all is what makes it the fights, politics, drama, and whole game so epic and fun. Also that people will QQ about blobs no matter what. If your group of 200 got blobed by 500 they QQ 'Blob!' Dumb fucks. If you went and got 200 people together don't pretend you wouldn't get 500 if you could.
4) Drama. Shadowbane had some epic drama, but nothing from any other game comes close to the history, politics, and drama of EVE. Cry about lag, bugs, what the fuck ever, I know the drama is what keeps me coming back. I don't know how many times I have let my sub drop only to have my alliance suddenly get in some huge drama and just... have... to.... resub. I can't stop myself from doing it. lol.
it's worth reminding that, unlike every other MMO ever, EVE expansions don't obsolete previous play, they add more options
and yeah, the jump-in-fleet crashes are game breaking, but throwing coders at it won't help. there's probably no more than 2 people on this planet (maybe just 1) who have enough familiarity with EVE network code, tcp/ip, server arch, logging, and log reading tools, to actually fix it, and i bet you that both are doing nothing else at CCP.
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@ Crud
So EVE now is, who ever exploits the bugged node and gets 800 ppl in wins the fight... That's some really nice PvP MMO right there, except there is no PvP. Might as well station spin all day, should be more fun than that. You play it cuz you like the drama?! Looks like you are some Latino American Soap opera fan boy...there is shit load of drama there..
@ Faife Throwing coders will help in the long run, since you will remove one nasty bug that will byte you in the ass as soon as you turn around. Ignoring all those bugs and putting new stuff ( crap ) is like burying your head and pretending it never happend. And I really don't care much if there is 1 or 2 persons in the universe that understand their network code, it's their fault they got more game designers and not coders in the first place. I personally used to be subbed to EVE because it was decent looking ( got used to the pretty pictures after 2 weeks ), and because of the FLEET FIGHTS and NOT to be looking at black screen when I jump to a system. I don't care if they can pack 1000 players in a system if all they can do is idle in space because no one wants to warp to the enemy since they don't know if they will load grid or not, I would rather have some kind of cap in system, but be able to PvP and not just to wait for the numbers to drop and hope for the best.
here, these should help you: ¶ ¶ ¶ ¶Originally Posted by HADES
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Rather than write a wall of text, I'll repeat: CCP has no idea why people log in to play Eve, and they keep haphazardly bolting expansions onto the side. What you guys describe as a selling point, I call it the reason CCP sucks at managing a game. We could write 50 pages on the development cycle of Dominion alone. It's like you guys want to give them an E for effort for attempting such a complex game. A complex, artful game with a shitty execution is still a shitty game.
They're busy making sim-planets when the fundamental risk/reward model of the game is FUBAR. There's no defense for that. The game is incapable of supporting major fleet battles because they failed to QA and lack debugging tools for their archaic, proprietary network code. There's no defense for that. They don't get props for releasing wormholes and FW while ignoring gigantic problems with the core gameplay.
stop repeating, you're wrong. if CCP ever released an "expansion" the way blizzard does, i would quit. i don't need my shit obsoleted and be told i need to go grind new ships.
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I don't think that was his point. I'm pretty much with Woozle..CCP has been expanding a shit ton, but the feeling is that they've lost touch with their player base. I think everyone would be absolutely thrilled if they spent an entire expansion/called it a major patch/whatever term they want to do...added zero new content, and just took their banhammer of doom to as many bugs as possible.
On any large enough project, eventually enough bugs pile up to necessitate a good/large size bug-fix/cleanup patch.
What you say in 2/3 is basically contradictory. Interesting definition of zerging also by the way.
No FC is ever going to say to people no you can't join my fleet as we've already got the maximum we feel the server will handle, fuck off and go PvE. Now, fair enough it's pretty stupid to jump a massive fleet into an already busy system but in the same way no one is going to be turned away from a fight no alliance would simply abandon something they managed to get a massive fleet together to defend / attack. At the very least they'd just hope to crash the node so both sides could just play the log in game.
As Caladain said, you just don't get it. You and R0ze are approaching this like we're arguing apples to apples. It's pretty god damn simple... Pretend we're not talking about WoW, let's talk about Popcap.
FOR WHAT IT IS, Popcap does a pretty amazing job at managing a game series that makes addicts out of grandmothers. FOR WHAT IT IS, CCP sucks donkey dick at managing their game. HI THERE, MAY I INTRODUCE YOU TO MY POINT.
Hi, I'm Faife. If CCP released a peggle expansion I would totally quit, therefore you are wrong about Eve!
popcap does a great job. blizzard does a terrible job. i'm explaining to you why blizzard does a terrible job.
nickelback sells millions, they're still terrible
ok, that explains everything. i think we're done here, you tween.
THE GREATEST POSTER
You're explaining by saying that YOU don't like WoW. It's baffling to me that you're being this dumb. You don't like the core game design of WoW, so you aren't the target audience. FOR THEIR AUDIENCE, WoW rocks at development and management. CCP has no clue how to manage the core game of Eve, and has done an objectively terrible job at QA and development.
At least R0ze had the excuse of non-native english speaker... jesus christ.
see my point?
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I never said anything about selling copies. I never said anything about popularity, I 100% laser focused on managing the core game.
Retards will play any trash game, but objectively WoW and Peggle have been extremely well managed. CCP sucks at game management, and that'd be true regardless of their current sales figures.
But I like how you make up my arguments to prove yourself right!
i don't care if they're 100% focused, 200% focused, or 1000% focused. it's still objectively a shit game with shit expansions, and you're objectively wrong for liking it.
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I've said several times that I don't like WoW whatsoever... It's almost like I'm trying to make a point that doesn't rely on my personal gaming taste!
Honestly, if we were talking over a dinner-date and I could explain myself to you, you'd say "Oh man, THAT was your point? Man I've been a real douchebag this whole time!" But we're stuck with text (I think... a/s/l?). So I'll carefully respond to your points:
I hear ya dude. But even if we agree that WoW is a terrible game, they do a great job at managing it. Which was my point all along. And that has nothing to do with sales or popularity, but with developing the core game. Eve is releasing sim-city while fleet combat is broken. The end.
it's why i said objectively. outside of taste and opinions, it's a shit game.
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Then it's a good thing that wasn't my point.
So we can all agree from the last 2 pages that woozle is a douche?
That's for sure. That and Faife thought I was arguing "WoW is wicked awesome" despite me repeatedly saying otherwise. Sorry about that. People who make shit up and then argue with themselves bring out my douchey side.
I wish there was an option to neg-rep everyone in a thread, even though I think I posted in here somewhere
WoW's PVP takes way more individual skill than Eve's, especially at the average alliance battleship grunt level which you could probably train chimps to do. Only advantage Eve has is losing shit is really painful.
luckily a lot of alliances really believe that and then try and figure out why they get wiped over and over, usually blaming spies.
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It's true, the only caveat is you need a decent or better FC.
The idea that I have "free will" is the only irrational belief that I allow myself.
If I am wrong, I had no choice in the matter.
you ever been in a holder fleet while they try to get people to align and realize that half aren't even on voicecomms?
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He didn't say there was no skill involved, he said you could train chimps to do it. Or just make a program to do it.
The idea that I have "free will" is the only irrational belief that I allow myself.
If I am wrong, I had no choice in the matter.
for an advanced enough chimp/program sure, but that's true for anything. my chimp kicks some serious ass at competition level tekken.
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There was a goon who ran around PVP very successfully with loads of(8 IIRC) monitors running different Eve clients and a program that copied his mouse movements from one screen to all the others. No way could you do that in WoW with any sort of workable group. There's loads more individual decision making and reacting to events in WoW PVP.
Actually, you can, it would just be marginally harder. There was quite a lot of people who would 5 box elemental shamans and rape everyone.
The hilarious test was the goon program that when you installed it on your computer would let the FC basically play the game for you. Although it got immediately shut down and no one ever used it, the fact that you would consider it an advantage to have one person simultaneously play hundreds of people's games for them is a pretty tell tale sign of 0.0 warfare.
The idea that I have "free will" is the only irrational belief that I allow myself.
If I am wrong, I had no choice in the matter.
I highly doubt its "copy" because unless you use something like macro which drops your client down to just few colours and fixed object positions (while of course its possible) .. he used something like Synergy ( http://synergy2.sourceforge.net/ ) which allows you to control multiple boxes from a single keyboard / mouse - eg you can bind many seperate machines into one virtual desktop.
So its more the multitasking skill of the player rather than copying the same thing over .. What makes it easier is that the fleet allows you to issue commands which end up as actual action (like warping / regrouping ) ..
Chimps under control..
The goon in question had ~12 or ~16 monitors running 4 PC's, Darius actually had the pic in his Presentation at fanfest and i experienced as he jumps into local, i shat myself when local spiked by 12, but then i noticed it was the same guy
Back when he had only 5
During Delve II
These look more like 6 PCs and 6 monitors on vertical orientation, with two clients per pc on windowed mode.The goon in question had ~12 or ~16 monitors running 4 PC's, Darius actually had the pic in his Presentation at fanfest and i experienced as he jumps into local, i shat myself when local spiked by 12, but then i noticed it was the same guy
~~~~GIMMIE +REP+ GIMMIE~~~~
All I see is blonde, brunette, red-head.
This is what it was. If I remember right, some of the PCs themselves really weren't that expensive (~400 each?).
The idea that I have "free will" is the only irrational belief that I allow myself.
If I am wrong, I had no choice in the matter.
It looks like every screen shows the EXACT same picture. Everywhere's a basilics as the only ship in the shiphangar section. Looks more like screenshot multiplied on all the screens tbh.
The facts have a strong anti-A- bias.
The bottom right of the middle 4 has chat, and the ship is angled very slightly different in each one (the bottom left of the ship is easy to check against the foreground).
TAKE THAT! WOOOOOO
That's because he flies the same ship on all accounts (each with identical skills) as it is easier to manage. There is a point during Delve II where he scattered a roaming gang by himself.
Damn I was hoping for walking in stations. I really wanted to be able to light a bathroom on fire.
What are those green sticker dots on the desk? 1 for each kilo of weight he gained since he started eve?Back when he had only 5
During Delve II
I used to run 3 clients on 2 computers back in '06/'07/(part of) '08 and it stressed the shit out of me. Back to 1 screen and max 2 clients running is way more in line with the hobby/fun game thing, this seems like allot of damn work for 0 pay.
Totally nerdy guess: They look like felt stickers, placed to match where his arms would scrape the corner of the desk.
Sure they do. Not in Arenas, but I saw plenty of people dual-boxing or even 5-boxing in battlegrounds, especially Wintergrasp. Doing so with spellcasters was pretty popular - bind your main nuke to the '1' key, and your other spells to different keys on each client. You could set it up so that you could use something like KeyClone and still get most of your DPS out. Have them stand more or less next to each other with all but one of them on /follow to the main character (have a macro set that you can spam so they keep following him), and you're good to go.
My guild's main tank was good enough at it that he could actually clear whole 5-man heroic dungeons with his team (Pally Tank and Priest Heals, with Balance Druid, Elemental Shaman, and some sort of Mage as DPS) in only slightly longer than it would take 5 real people.
Holy shit that's genius. My last desk kept scraping me to the point where I developed a habit of just putting the keyboard on my lap.
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