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Thread: Sins of a Solar Spymaster #39 - The Twilight of the Great Powers

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    Default Sins of a Solar Spymaster #39 - The Twilight of the Great Powers

    By The Mittani

    Did Sov kill the Great Power model?

    In the aftermath of the cataclysmic self-annihilation of Goonswarm - and its immediate rebirth as SOLODRAKBANSOLODRAKBANSO [LODRA] alliance - I've found myself in the unusual position of assisting in the reconstruction of an alliance from the ground up. Usually, alliances grow organically, and their structure is more a reflection of environment and circumstances than deliberate, fully informed choices by their leadership and membership. For us, everything must be decided from Day One - income structure, directorate structure, reimbursement structure, goals, enemies, friends, you name it. And in this extremely busy process, one thing has become abundantly clear to me: the Great Power model of alliances is a thing of the past, cruelly murdered by the new mechanics of the Dominion sov system - and this is not a good thing.

    The Great Power model has brought EVE Online much of its drama and media attention over the years. To describe it briefly, a Great Power alliance holds territory and aggresses militarily much in the way of the imperialist powers of the early twentieth century. Wars between Great Powers have spanned the entirety of the galaxy, and spawned a series of alliances and blocs which left a web of delicious complexity and political intensity. Great Powers could talk seriously of owning half of the conquerable space on the map; they might not succeed, but it was a possibility that had to be guarded against and fought over. They made war and conquered for the joy of conquest above all.

    With Dominion, conquest for its own sake has been abandoned for a game of galactic bean-counting; alliances making war for the sake of war are hamstrung by escalating sov fees. In the past, a Great Power could seize a territory of little military consequence and adjust the amount of towers and defenses put into it. A station system could be held by a token tower, but should there be a military attack, the systems defenses could be bolstered on the fly - raising the cost to hold it, but also with the ability to scale down after the threat had passed. After Dominion, an alliance attempting to seize a neighbor's territory had best hope that their enemy doesn't collapse or implode (a la Goonswarm) lest the sudden influx of new sov fees bankrupt the aggressor completely.

    This leaves us with an ugly question of purpose. While there have always been 'niche' alliances - roleplayers (CVA, Ursha'kahn), would-be neutral merchant organizations (Big Blue, ISS), and innumerable tenants/pets/slaves, the grand narrative of nullsec has always been driven by the Great Powers and their warring impulses to dominate and control. It is because of the Great Powers that legions of empire dwellers and thousands of people who don't even play the game follow EVE politics like a spectator sport.

    Now, not only must would-be Great Powers abandon conquest for its own sake, the niche alliances must also focus their attentions on feeding the ravenous isk-sink that CCP has created. When the patch was being sold to the subscriber base, much noise was made about 'making nullsec profitable' compared to the risk-free isk faucet that is level four missions in Empire. Shortly before the patch hit, CCP Hammerhead backed off this desperately needed fix, and indeed Dominion has vastly increased the costs of conquerable space with no commensurate increase in income generation from that space.

    An alliance living in conquerable nullsec has a bare few options available to it. It can add no real infrastructure upgrades in the form of cynojammers and jump bridges in order to keep costs down - yet then why bother with conquerable space? It can pack its space full of renters and tax them, which was one of CCP's objectives - yet due to the lack of an increase in profitability, the space in conquerable nullsec lacks the profit potential to support the amount of renters necessary to afford many sov upgrades. Indeed, IT Alliance, which has rapidly expanded after the galactic suicide of Goonswarm, has been unable to afford even jump bridges in its new space, despite being the largest alliance in the game and with its new territory absolutely full of renters.

    So again the ugly question of purpose. For many of the Great War vets, the prospect of playing Slumlord Online is positively nauseating. When managing tenants was a means to the end of more conquest, having renters was fine - many alliances pre-Dominion used renters as an income method, and it funded their wars quite effectively. Yet now we seem to be consigned to be the galactic landlords of little fiefdoms, unable to expand - and worse, rather than being able to use those rents to the benefit of alliance members in the form of reimbursements and infrastructure, the isk simply vanishes into a CCP-created black hole.

    Alliances trying to maintain conquerable space in the Dominion system are much weaker when trying to handle the inevitable vicissitudes of war. Should a massive hit to the alliance finances take place, such as a lost capital battle or theft or simply an exodus of renters, the alliance may find itself behind on its sov payments like a struggling homeowner in the United States - and if even one bill is missed, sov drops instantly.

    Of course, there are other methods of making isk in EVE: Reaction hubs, large scale invention projects, the obligatory moon mining (now we chase Technetium, instead of Dysprosium! Change has come to New Eden!). Yet none of these are unique to conquerable space, unlike the developer-intended renter model; they can be used in NPC space or even in lowsec with equal effectiveness.

    The logical outgrowth of these design decisions is to stop conceptualizing alliances as conquest-focused war machines and instead think of them as a business. The bitter fruit of this analysis leads us to abandon the idea of holding any significant amount of conquerable nullsec, walking away from it entirely until the income/expense ratio has been radically adjusted.

    The most ideal model of a post-Dominion alliance appears to be the 'hybrid/iceberg' model: an entity which has a minimal foothold in conquerable space for those few functions which remain truly unique to that space, and which otherwise keeps its assets and income in adjacent NPC 0.0. Hybrid alliances have their 'tip' on the sov map with the rest of their assets 'underwater' in NPC nullsec and lowsec. Unlike an alliance entirely in conquerable space, hybrids accrue all of the income benefits of living in nullsec without having to divert practically anything to CCP. Moreover, hybrids are at far less risk of loss than a traditional alliance, because the bulk of their assets are sheltered in stations which cannot be taken.

    There have been hybrid alliances before Dominion, such as pre-Fountain Pandemic Legion and Triumvirate, and these are infamously hard to dispose of in a permanent way. Yet this model wasn't popular at the time, because war for the sake of war was a viable and entertaining option that the majority of alliances were eager to partake in.

    The brutal truth is that post-Dominion there are only two practical functions to conquerable space: the construction of supercapital ships and a discount on tower fuel for running vast reaction hubs. Pre-Dominion, holding sov provided handy fuel benefits even for one tower, but now one needs to have at least ten towers in one system before the fuel discount outweighs the minimum CCP-mandated isk sink. One might even argue that reaction hubs are better run in NPC space, because of the ease with which the at-risk reaction material can be stashed in an unconquerable station should the hub come under siege by hostile forces.

    We have entered a new era of gameplay in nullsec, one in which wars and options are severely restricted by crushing financial burdens. Those who try to play at the old Great Power game will find themselves desperately trying to stay afloat or bankrupt; those who remain in conquerable space but give up conquest as a raison d'etre will find themselves stagnating as they wallow in their space-slums. And the hybrids will be laughing all the way to the bank.


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    Now, not only must would-be Great Powers abandon conquest for its own sake, the niche alliances must also focus their attentions on feeding the ravenous isk-sink that CCP has created. When the patch was being sold to the subscriber base, much noise was made about 'making nullsec profitable' compared to the risk-free isk faucet that is level four missions in Empire. Shortly before the patch hit, CCP Hammerhead backed off this desperately needed fix, and indeed Dominion has vastly increased the costs of conquerable space with no commensurate increase in income generation from that space.
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    Wow, I actually agree with the Mittani on this one, good article. Although I wonder if it is CCP's intention to bring EVE away from "Clash of the great powers" to a game with a lot smaller fights and skirmishing. Either way they didn't succeed.

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    I think the intention was to break up the huge powerblocs that could prevent independents from colonizing 0.0 and hence prevent stagnation.

    What seems to have not occurred to them (CCP) is that the issue wasn't neccesarily the amount of space 0.0 entities held but the fact that force projection was so easy and that Empire is so much mor eprofitable for individual or small groups of players than 0.0 that there is no reason to make the jump to 0.0 and all the risks it imposes.

    0.0 sov holders do not in any way have any lessened ability to mobilize players to crush any independent trying to take sov near them. The logistsics for this are essentially the same, apart from changes to jump bridge networks that can be mitigated.

    You may only hold sov in smaller areas, but that doesnt mean you have any less of a distorting effect on the political (and strategic) landscape.
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    Is IT really having problems financially or is it just Mittani bullshit? I would love to find out what the prices for renting systems in Querious are, it'll be a pretty good indication of how they are handling all of the new space they have.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sircussalot View Post
    Is IT really having problems financially or is it just Mittani bullshit?
    If they were I would doubt that they would shoot themselves in the foot like Goons did and keep all the stations for no apparent reason.

    Renting can create an exorbitant amount of isk, if IT can do the same as Atlas does in Insmother (but scale it up because its better space) they really shouldn't have any problems especially considering they have fountain to rent out too which is also good space.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aurora148 View Post
    they have fountain to rent out too which is also good space.
    Isn't most of Fountain going to their resident meatshields like Black Star Alliance or Huns or whoever the fuck else? All of Fountain is broken trusec anyways, so I guess there really is no "bad space".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sircussalot View Post
    Is IT really having problems financially or is it just Mittani bullshit? I would love to find out what the prices for renting systems in Querious are, it'll be a pretty good indication of how they are handling all of the new space they have.
    saw this on CAOD, some carebear crying about IT's renter policy...anyone know if its legit?

    Quote Originally Posted by CAOD Carebear
    From: Dianabolic
    Sent: 2010.02.21 10:54
    To: Imperator Ceasar,

    I would recommend 1M4-FK, however before we go further you should be aware of the terms if you are not already:

    Per system EXCLUSIVE use:

    Pricetag; 10 billion / month, 15 billion deposit.
    Renter buys ugrades, we install them
    Renter hauls upgrades, we anchor them
    Moonmining not allowed.
    Moonrefinieries not allowed.

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    Much better then the last article. Reactions are the key, you just can't be a lazy turd alliance. I do wonder how planets will play into alliance level income.

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    Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex AJ Regard's Avatar
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    Ppl are actually still reading mittens babbling on tth o.0?

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    Advance Romance snsmasta's Avatar
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    We don't have that many jump bridges/ cyno jammers up because there is no need for any. Nobody is threatening us ATM, so why put them up and waste isk? We are not in the same position as Goons were, where they were surrounded by enemies and had to keep up all the cyno jammers/bridges up non-stop.

    Also Mittani is wrong in his assumption that we are full of renters atm, we were very busy carving up the space between our allies to look for any. Only in the past few days have we started to find/get renters in our systems.

    As for Fountain, We have divided it up already. We gave each of the allies that helped us out in the war a constellation for themselves and No, they are not renting from us, otherwise we would not be calling them Allies.We also have a few of our corps basing there. I'd say atm only Half of fountain or so is being utilized.

    @SpaceHermit, yes those prices that you copy pasted from CAOD are correct. The deposit for the first month is 15b, after the first month you will get your 5b refund. Reason why the renters can't hold sov is because of security issues. It is a lot easier for us to defend.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Regard View Post
    Ppl are actually still reading mittens babbling on tth o.0?
    IT propaganda machine < Goon propaganda machine

    edit: The security deposit is a masterstroke, we used it all the time to scam people trying to join4delve.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SpaceHermit View Post
    saw this on CAOD, some carebear crying about IT's renter policy...anyone know if its legit?
    Pricetag; 10 billion / month, 15 billion deposit.
    Renter buys ugrades, we install them
    Renter hauls upgrades, we anchor them
    Moonmining not allowed.
    Moonrefinieries not allowed.
    So 10b for a 17+1 belt system with -0.03 sec status 7 jumps from empire. No moon mining is allowed but when there is only 2 r16s in system, there not much to mine anyways. How can a corp afford to pay this?

    Or is this like a Whitewater deal where IT gets you into the system on horrid terms and kicks you while keeping the deposit the minute you miss a payment?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sircussalot View Post
    IT propaganda machine < Goon propaganda machine

    edit: The security deposit is a masterstroke, we used it all the time to scam people trying to join4delve.
    That may of have been true for you but not for us. Why scam somebody for a messily 15b? The word of that would get out and then nobody would want to rent from us. Seriously, why would we want to fuck with possibly the best income you can get after the Majority moon type nerf in our area....

    As for the price it is very reasonable. 40-60 pilots can make that easily in a single day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by snsmasta View Post
    That may of have been true for you but not for us. Why scam somebody for a messily 15b? The word of that would get out and then nobody would want to rent from us. Seriously, why would we want to fuck with possibly the best income you can get after the Majority moon type nerf in our area....

    As for the price it is very reasonable. 40-60 pilots can make that easily in a single day.
    Holy carp, I need to go raise our rental fees.

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    How exactly does one fit 40-60 pilots in a system making money? Thats quite the scam you have going there.

    If one were looking for space to rent, the atlas rates were much more reasonable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackJack View Post
    How exactly does one fit 40-60 pilots in a system making money? Thats quite the scam you have going there.

    If one were looking for space to rent, the atlas rates were much more reasonable.
    Because our space is that much better ...We have 1-2 Systems supporting our 4-700 man corps...are you guys that terrible at making isk?

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    Quote Originally Posted by snsmasta View Post
    That may of have been true for you but not for us. Why scam somebody for a messily 15b? The word of that would get out and then nobody would want to rent from us. Seriously, why would we want to fuck with possibly the best income you can get after the Majority moon type nerf in our area....

    As for the price it is very reasonable. 40-60 pilots can make that easily in a single day.
    Aside from the security deposit, are you implying that 40-60 pilots in a day could make 15b a day in a 17 belt system? Please spell it out how that is done. I'm assuming out of those 40 pilots 35 will be mining, and I'm pretty sure nobody runs ops like than anymore because if you really want to scale an operation to that size you would be better off mining ice with bots in empire like everyone else does. The only real value of Querious is the moons and escalations, the rats are nice but none of the isk sellers will pay that much just to shoot blood raiders. Even a dedicated macro ratter running 24/7 won't pay 15b a month to rat in Querious. You can still make a nice profit, but you can make way more in Atlas space or any of the other renter programs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sircussalot View Post
    Aside from the security deposit, are you implying that 40-60 pilots in a day could make 15b a day in a 17 belt system? Please spell it out how that is done. I'm assuming out of those 40 pilots 35 will be mining, and I'm pretty sure nobody runs ops like than anymore because if you really want to scale an operation to that size you would be better off mining ice with bots in empire like everyone else does. The only real value of Querious is the moons and escalations, the rats are nice but none of the isk sellers will pay that much just to shoot blood raiders. Even a dedicated macro ratter running 24/7 won't pay 15b a month to rat in Querious. You can still make a nice profit, but you can make way more in Atlas space or any of the other renter programs.
    Because there are 20+ anoms in a system, hidden belts, etc etc.... are you that terrible?

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    Sircussalot, would you mind refreshing my memory regarding what Atlas charges its renters?

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    Last rate i was quoted on ATLAS was 100M a month per system. The corp size was 40 people, have to join their renter alliance (green or something) iirc.

    Delve is 19 days of ownership under IT. I don't know if the days/times line up in the new sov system (i searched and skimmed the blogs and couldn't find crap) but i'm guessing we couldn't even install such mods outside of fountain, let alone this shit about 'can't afford it.'. That being said, even if they could, no need what-so-ever for IT to install jammers outside of capital construction systems.

    Indeed the shit is still expensive.

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    15 billion for a single system is retarded. This is either a troll, or a very stupid idea.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Altair View Post
    Last rate i was quoted on ATLAS was 100M a month per system.
    Its a bit more than that for all but the worst systems, but it's still nowhere near IT's prices.

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    "My powerblock fell apart therefore the model of 'Great Powers' is no longer valid. Conquerable nullsec is no longer profitable, pr0 move is to keep your alliance in NPC space"
    pretty much the whole article

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    Quote Originally Posted by Burnes View Post
    Sircussalot, would you mind refreshing my memory regarding what Atlas charges its renters?
    http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?k...=2&output=html

    Basically they will rent out a -.62 system with 36 belts for 2.1b a month, which is a pretty damn good deal.

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    Being a renter is retarded. Landlords never ever protect their tenants and will throw them to the wolves laughing if it's convenient plus it's really not hard to get into any 0.0 alliance. The only people who benefit are leadership who get slave's slaves to milk.

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    It amazes me that these people will pay ten billion for such a system when they could just find a C5 or C6 wormhole with a C3 static exit and earn phenomenal amounts for the cost of running a couple of large POSes with biochems.

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    protect the renters from what exactly? if a roam comes, go to a pos. it's not exactly complicated.

    on the other hand, if a tower gets reinforced, landlord will probably show up just cause we own dreads and there's nothing else to do with them.
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    losing all their shit when things hot up a little. pets are always first against the wall and last to be told. they pay for basically nothing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Berious View Post
    losing all their shit when things hot up a little. pets are always first against the wall and last to be told. they pay for basically nothing.
    uh, what shit. they're renters. they rent space, make isk, then leave and go do something else. they pay so that we, and everyone in the neighborhood, don't shoot them while they're making isk in 0.0.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berious View Post
    losing all their shit when things hot up a little. pets are always first against the wall and last to be told. they pay for basically nothing.
    Renters simply pay for the privililege for building up shop in a certain area to make ISK, then leave. It's not protection money (unless you count the protection from not being shot at by the landlords)
    Oh boy, this will turn into another discussion about the definition of Renters, Pets and Meatshields, right? Because Berious is mixing them up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Berious View Post
    losing all their shit when things hot up a little. pets are always first against the wall and last to be told. they pay for basically nothing.
    Did you rent and get shat on because this makes no sense?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Murr View Post
    15 billion for a single system is retarded. This is either a troll, or a very stupid idea.
    16 bil if you include the i-hub you have to supply and have upgraded to level 5 the next day that's mandatory to even come close to their poorly thought out farming scenario.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicky D View Post
    16 bil if you include the i-hub you have to supply and have upgraded to level 5 the next day that's mandatory to even come close to their poorly thought out farming scenario.
    It's not 15b a month, its 10b a month, you get your 5b refund back, its like a security deposit.

  35. #35
    "It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane"
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    Back on topic, is Goonwaffe going to pursue this strategy in Syndicate and Cloud Ring? i.e. are they going to stay around here for longer than a couple months?

    Is this old news to anyone with a gf.com account?

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    The GS directerate hates the idea of renters which is why we never had them while in Delve.

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    You guys are seriously defending ten billion a month for one system?

    I don't know what to say, except that atlas should poach renters from IT by spamming their much less exorbitant prices in Querious station systems.

  38. #38
    The Alien in Our Minds Nicky D's Avatar
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    True you could get a -0.59 system with a station in atlas space for one-tenth the price of what IT charges for a -0.03 system in Querious, but even as a former member of fucking Undivided I could tell you anyone who would pay 10 bil a month for a station is too retarded to live in insmother.

  39. #39
    Monalisa Overdrive Cippalippus's Avatar
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    You've got to look at it from another perspective: having a lot of renters suck. If you have just a few but they pay well, it's better than organizing standings and trying to quiet down the constant drama and inevitable blue on blue accidents that spawn from having a huge number of different corps/alliances in a small segment of space.

  40. #40
    Kugutsumen Murr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snsmasta View Post
    It's not 15b a month, its 10b a month, you get your 5b refund back, its like a security deposit.
    It would be easier just to say the pricing is ridiculous and we didn't want those renters anyway.


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  41. #41
    Advance Romance snsmasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Murr View Post
    It would be easier just to say the pricing is ridiculous and we didn't want those renters anyway.
    Hehe, not really, we are after quality renters not quantity. If we wanted a bazzilion renters we would have low-prices. But having a ton of renters brings upon its own problems. The price is starting price, it does not mean it will always stay that way, depending how cool you are, prices will get reduced for you over time...

    Either way we should get back on topic, if this needs further discussion lets make a new thread for it instead of de-ralining .

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    Kugutsumen Murr's Avatar
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    If you charge 10 bil per month with a 5 bil deposit for a single system, require to pay everything up front and them buying all the upgrades but handing them to you to install them you are after retard renters, not quality ones.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Murr View Post
    If you charge 10 bil per month with a 5 bil deposit for a single system, require to pay everything up front and them buying all the upgrades but handing them to you to install them you are after retard renters, not quality ones.
    Is there any other kind of renter?

  44. #44
    Don't stop posting! RansomList's Avatar
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    Macro farming should cover it of course.

    I doubt those prices are those offered to all comers, just randoms that want some space. The old boys club and hangers on will get better deal unless the worlds been turned upside down.
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