Make bears blind so I can hunt them with a battletank.

[tgr]

making ISK in 0.0 stops being safer than making ISK in empire

It isn't.

[Wheeler711]

It isn't.

Da fuck? Nullsec is almost always safer to make Isk. From mining to doing sites.

[Max]

Da fuck? Nullsec is almost always safer to make Isk. From mining to doing sites.

No.

[Wheeler711]

No.

No its yes.

[Seymore Graves]

No its yes.

Just get out.

[Quesa]

Well this thread went to shit fast.

[Hilmar Keller]

No.

http://themittani.com/features/local-problem

I know, shameless self-promotion, but you probably ought to know that you're wrong. If you watch local, you're more likely to be suicide ganked in high-sec than you are to be caught mining/ratting in null.

[tgr]

http://themittani.com/features/local-problem

I know, shameless self-promotion, but you probably ought to know that you're wrong. If you watch local, you're more likely to be suicide ganked in high-sec than you are to be caught mining/ratting in null.

Key word: "if you watch local", i.e. if you actually put in the effort to stay safe.

Nullsec: take a piss at the wrong time: you're dead. don't pay attention to the client for 30 seconds at the wrong time: you're dead. You have to actually put in some effort, constantly, to stay safe.
Hisec: you have to be either retarded enough to pimpfit your ratting ship, run around in an untanked hauler with enough value inside your cargohold to make it worth it, be at war or just come across someone who wants to gank someone. If you just rat/do mission in a non-faction fit ship, you might as well just close down the local window and pretend you're playing a very early and crude version of the X series for all those people matter to you. More or less the same can be said for mining after CCP buffed the barges. Fit tank, receive bacon, give no fucks about local.

[Grath]

Yea no I'm calling bullshit. I roamed for 13 hours. If you're looking at local and paying attention, you CAN'T be caught, even by an interceptor. That effectively makes you safer than in empire. The only way that ratters are in any danger is from AWOXing, but thats still far rarer than getting raped by a suicide gank squad in a LvL4 hub.

So yes, the combat restricted area is most definitely not safer than the free fire zone in this game.

EDIT: Also why should 0.0 be so fucking safe all the time, the tools and ability of the hunter is the basic equal of breaking both its back legs and pulling out its teeth and then sending it out to hunt. Your have THIRTY SECONDS to do something after a hunter jumps in, scan times, minimal warp times mean that you could be MID PISS, have somebody jump in, and still make it out. If you want safety you should have to stay in empire, if you want to come out to 0.0 (where the money making is hella better which was your argument last time, the reward is much higher now) your ship should be fair play, and currently, the play isn't anywhere close to fair at all, in fact the game is so heavily stacked against the hunter that its actually impossible for him to ever win if both hunter and prey are playing.

Thats not balanced

[Anhenka]

http://themittani.com/features/local-problem

I know, shameless self-promotion, but you probably ought to know that you're wrong. If you watch local, you're more likely to be suicide ganked in high-sec than you are to be caught mining/ratting in null.

And frankly, I see nothing wrong with that. People paying attention should be all but immune to getting jumped.

I do like part of you idea, though I would personally reduce it down to when the person entering loads grid + maybe 10/15 seconds, and remove that damn local flash unless the player was on the same grid as the entering stargate. People on the grid with the gate when the person enters should also be able to see them in the local window.

[Grath]

People paying attention should be all but immune to getting jumped.

Thats fucking retarded and so are you for putting it in print

[tgr]

If you're looking at local and paying attention

You literally never need to do this in hisec, unless you're at war, run around in a pimpfit ship or haul excessively valuable cargo.

getting raped by a suicide gank squad in a LvL4 hub.

Pray tell, how often does this happen if you don't pimpfit your ship?

[Grath]

Pray tell, how often does this happen if you don't pimpfit your ship?

How often can your pimp fit ship die in 0.0 if you just put a user list up on your screen?

Let me give you a hint, theres about 40 Inver Brass guys that rat around paragon soul in nightmares, seeing some of the awox mails from the area tells me they're probably pimp fitted, and the other night Fainaru Wada tried to awox one and had to disengage (because it was kicking his ass), so I'm going to be they're pimp fit. There is 0 chance any one man of those nightmares will ever die while ratting. Doesn't matter if they've fit it with virgin pussy and diamonds.

[Anhenka]

Thats fucking retarded and so are you for putting it in print

Glad to see you disagree. But where exactly do you draw the line?
Should there be some sure way that when someone enters a local, they always have a possibility to kill any ratters in the system regardless of a ratter/miners preperation?
Cause if your opinion is that roamers should be able to catch someone already aligned to a safe or POS and who is paying attention to local, I want whatever it is your doc prescribed.

Edit:
Yes the current system favors the ratter way too much, and should be scaled back a bit.
But there should also be ways for a player actively paying attention to the game and being prepared to be able to escape from random roamers that wander through.

[tgr]

How often can your pimp fit ship die in 0.0 if you just put a user list up on your screen?

Does the pimpfit make any difference whatsoever whether or not they get caught? No. Can they still get caught if they don't pay attention for 30 seconds at the wrong time, or jump around without watching intel? Yes. Does this happen all the time? Yes.

Let me give you a hint, theres about 40 Inver Brass guys that rat around paragon soul in nightmares, seeing some of the awox mails from the area tells me they're probably pimp fitted, and the other night Fainaru Wada tried to awox one and had to disengage (because it was kicking his ass), so I'm going to be they're pimp fit. There is 0 chance any one man of those nightmares will ever die while ratting. Doesn't matter if they've fit it with virgin pussy and diamonds.

And your solution to this is?

[WNxWolfy]

Yea no I'm calling bullshit. I roamed for 13 hours. If you're looking at local and paying attention, you CAN'T be caught, even by an interceptor. That effectively makes you safer than in empire. The only way that ratters are in any danger is from AWOXing, but thats still far rarer than getting raped by a suicide gank squad in a LvL4 hub.

So yes, the combat restricted area is most definitely not safer than the free fire zone in this game.

EDIT: Also why should 0.0 be so fucking safe all the time, the tools and ability of the hunter is the basic equal of breaking both its back legs and pulling out its teeth and then sending it out to hunt. Your have THIRTY SECONDS to do something after a hunter jumps in, scan times, minimal warp times mean that you could be MID PISS, have somebody jump in, and still make it out. If you want safety you should have to stay in empire, if you want to come out to 0.0 (where the money making is hella better which was your argument last time, the reward is much higher now) your ship should be fair play, and currently, the play isn't anywhere close to fair at all, in fact the game is so heavily stacked against the hunter that its actually impossible for him to ever win if both hunter and prey are playing.

Thats not balanced

This is why I think local should not be an intel gathering tool. Let people run some risk when ratting in nullsec. Let them be paranoid as fuck and hitting their d-scan every 5 seconds. This would also make blackops that much more fun and effective.

[Grath]

Glad to see you disagree. But where exactly do you draw the line?
Should there be some sure way that when someone enters a local, they always have a possibility to kill any ratters in the system regardless of a ratter/miners preperation?
Cause if your opinion is that roamers should be able to catch someone already aligned to a safe or POS and who is paying attention to local, I want whatever it is your doc prescribed.

No, I actually helped come up with the idea in that article. I was roaming, for 13 hours. I'm pretty fucking good at eve in general, I'm actually one of the people that are good at what they do in the game which translates into all my asshole posts. The fact that 13 straight hours of jumping into systems filled with paladins and nightmares in the area where im supposed to be able to kill these people and knowing as they taunt me in Turkish that i'll never be able to was bothering the fuck out of me. I know we need to slant towards the prey.

The art of making money in 0.0 has to be more profitable than 0.0, by a huge margin, or people wont do it if theres danger. We've currently reached a point where 0.0 isk grinding massively outstrips what you can grind up in empire, the right kit and fit can generate a billion a night for the dedicated ratter.

The risk though is minimal, think about it, 30 seconds is probably the middle, but considering the number of times you'll wiff if its a long warp to any anom is staggering even IF you could get there in under 30 seconds. 30 seconds gets a titan into warp. That means that there is never a single chance EVER for that money maker to die.

There is no sink to the isk that it generates, there is no predatory threat to the money maker.

We dont want to take that away. We want the local channel to be like bombs, or your decloak timer. If you were to sit still and not move on a gate your invuln timer makes you immune to damage and untargetable while cloaked. All we'd propose is having the timer match your appearance in the local channel. I mean the fucking thing blinks now when we jump in, for fuck sake throw us a bone and give us a peak around the system, cut that 30 seconds to 20 and maybe you'll see some of the slower herd members go down but those of you who actually try like you say will still live.

EDIT: and to be really clear, thats NOT cloaked ships, or log ins, thats just session change into the system.

[Richter Belmont]

If I wanted to press D-scan 400 times a day, I would join a wormhole corp.

[Anhenka]

No, I actually helped come up with the idea in that article. I was roaming, for 13 hours. I'm pretty fucking good at eve in general, I'm actually one of the people that are good at what they do in the game which translates into all my asshole posts. The fact that 13 straight hours of jumping into systems filled with paladins and nightmares in the area where im supposed to be able to kill these people and knowing as they taunt me in Turkish that i'll never be able to was bothering the fuck out of me. I know we need to slant towards the prey.

The art of making money in 0.0 has to be more profitable than 0.0, by a huge margin, or people wont do it if theres danger. We've currently reached a point where 0.0 isk grinding massively outstrips what you can grind up in empire, the right kit and fit can generate a billion a night for the dedicated ratter.

The risk though is minimal, think about it, 30 seconds is probably the middle, but considering the number of times you'll wiff if its a long warp to any anom is staggering even IF you could get there in under 30 seconds. 30 seconds gets a titan into warp. That means that there is never a single chance EVER for that money maker to die.

There is no sink to the isk that it generates, there is no predatory threat to the money maker.

We dont want to take that away. We want the local channel to be like bombs, or your decloak timer. If you were to sit still and not move on a gate your invuln timer makes you immune to damage and untargetable while cloaked. All we'd propose is having the timer match your appearance in the local channel. I mean the fucking thing blinks now when we jump in, for fuck sake throw us a bone and give us a peak around the system, cut that 30 seconds to 20 and maybe you'll see some of the slower herd members go down but those of you who actually try like you say will still live.

Then don't remove the part where I agreed with the idea, said removing the flash was a good idea as well, and that part about near immunity only being applied to people paying attention when you call me an idiot over a post.
Cherry pick out half a sentence and focus on it. Good idea.

[jimmychrist]

Change local to constellation wide

[jimmychrist]

Change local to constellation wide

And add fuel requirement to cloaks

[Zakhodit]

I think that this argurment is starting to bleed into one of: "Where one can make the Most money" not "where it is safest to park next to a station and then go AFK for 23 hours."

To answer the former: 0.0
To answer the Latter: WOW

[Grath]

If I wanted to press D-scan 400 times a day, I would join a wormhole corp.

Well if you wanted to be safe you should have stayed in church (empire)

[Addrake]

Thats fucking retarded and so are you for putting it in print

I disagree. If I'm sitting there missioning in a L4 out in 0.0, watching local and spamming scan like a freaking coked out idiot (even with nothing in system,) I should probably be able to dodge someone who tries to come kill me. I'm taking an action to keep myself safe because I'm a paranoid fucker. Doing this I have NEVER died in 0.0 from a ganker while ratting. Even when I was in IRC getting constantly blackops camped and boat was jumping his nyx into I-CMZA to try and kill carriers, I wasn't dying. It just doesn't happen if you're anal about your safety. That being said I highly doubt I would die in highsec from suicide gankers also so long as I collected intel on who they were and kept an up to date watchlist, again because i'm anal about my pve ships. Delaying local is going to help you catch people who 'kind of' care, but it isn't going to do a whole lot against people who always fight aligned, who use scout alts, and who spam their scanners.

[Grath]

Kind of care is ok, anything is better than the current state of "only the guy that went to walk his dog while ratting in 0.0 died"


EDIT: Also mission running in 0.0 is actually the safest thing, you've got to be actively probed in those fuckers, and the LP on l4's is pretty god damn insane.

[Lorren Canada]

I just want low/null incursions to come back since it was easy and relaxed jewing that also had risk - risk that we were prepared for so we could throw down with hostile cruiser gangs and panther fleets and get some pvp mixed with our pve.

[tgr]

This is why I think local should not be an intel gathering tool. Let people run some risk when ratting in nullsec. Let them be paranoid as fuck and hitting their d-scan every 5 seconds. This would also make blackops that much more fun and effective.

This'll make more people put their isk farming alts to hisec or FW, not because of the risk, but because of the effort of keeping safe compared to the rewards they'll get.

Change local to constellation wide

If you think people are whining about "afk cloakers" as it is now, you should give this a try; it'll reach a feverpitch. And it'll make more people move their isk farming alts to hisec.

And add fuel requirement to cloaks

This'll make wormhole guys whine up a storm about how you're making wormholes safer than hisec.

Well if you wanted to be safe you should have stayed in church (empire)

Surprisingly, this is exactly what a lot of people have done.

No, I actually helped come up with the idea in that article.

And it might shock you, but I agree with that change. It isn't a radical change, it doesn't favour the attacker unduly (unlike some eve-o suggestions which are pants on head retarded) and it doesn't affect those who actually do put in the effort of mitigating the base danger which nullsec has (and hisec doesn't). The only thing I disagreed with was the statement "nullsec is safer than hisec", when it blatantly isn't.

[Atticus]

the LP on l4's is pretty god damn insane.

Shhhhh.

[Grath]

Shhhhh.

bought soooo many guristas heavy missiles before i checked what they were worth....never again

[Ron Mexxico]

And add fuel requirement to cloaks

go fuck yourself

[Fkin]

Yea no I'm calling bullshit. I roamed for 13 hours. If you're looking at local and paying attention, you CAN'T be caught, even by an interceptor. That effectively makes you safer than in empire. The only way that ratters are in any danger is from AWOXing, but thats still far rarer than getting raped by a suicide gank squad in a LvL4 hub.

So yes, the combat restricted area is most definitely not safer than the free fire zone in this game.

EDIT: Also why should 0.0 be so fucking safe all the time, the tools and ability of the hunter is the basic equal of breaking both its back legs and pulling out its teeth and then sending it out to hunt. Your have THIRTY SECONDS to do something after a hunter jumps in, scan times, minimal warp times mean that you could be MID PISS, have somebody jump in, and still make it out. If you want safety you should have to stay in empire, if you want to come out to 0.0 (where the money making is hella better which was your argument last time, the reward is much higher now) your ship should be fair play, and currently, the play isn't anywhere close to fair at all, in fact the game is so heavily stacked against the hunter that its actually impossible for him to ever win if both hunter and prey are playing.

Thats not balanced

HAY GUYS HERE IS WHY MY NOT APPLICABLE SAMPLE OF NULL SEC MEANS SOMETHING! Bullshit. Depending on where you roamed and how it makes a huge difference. You are still an insufferable faggot. Mission runners and minors don't typically log when you enter system.

[Securitas]

This'll make more people put their isk farming alts to hisec or FW, not because of the risk, but because of the effort of keeping safe compared to the rewards they'll get.

Then they get poorer, spend less time in their 0.0 space (longer form-up times if they can be assed at all), and thus are likely (more so anyway) to get rolled by people who stay in 0.0 and HTFU.

It's literally the same as carebearing in a system with an AFK cloaky now; I do it every day(vera cruz is fucking dedicated), and I've never been caught because I align and I'm not a retard. Instant omniscient intel provided by the game itself via what is basically a chat channel is stupid. Delay or constellation-wide makes a lot of sense; you can still find fights without complete safety. I know almost nobody who goes AFK for any amount of time while in an anomaly anyway. Who goes for a piss while still in an anom? You can literally just press the 'dock' button and your ship will take itself to the station while you relieve yourself.

The fucked up part is the current system encourages AFK cloaking and awoxing as they are literally some of the only ways you can catch targets. Why should you be rewarded for not playing the game (sitting AFK cloaked up.)? It's not like it's that Grath or me are just awful at tackling either. Even wheniaminspace, who I think many can agree is one of the better tackles/d-scanners out there, rarely catches prey that is not completely afk.

Also it would completely kill botting, which is a huge plus in my book, as well as buffing group PVE, which I think would be excellent, this being, after all, a game which emphasizes teamwork.

[Atticus]

Even wheniaminspace, who I think many can agree is one of the better tackles/d-scanners out there, rarely catches prey that is completely afk.

Wheniaminspace is a goddamn hero.

[Securitas]

Wheniaminspace is a goddamn hero.

It's kinda sad really. Space jumps in a Stiletto, finds their anomaly between 3 and 10 seconds after the minimum scan time is up, and lands to find the ratter is already gone.

[Vonce forthelulz]

This is a dumb discussion.

[Securitas]

This is a dumb discussion.

This is a dumb post.

Go away.

[Kitty Vintner]

You have to be pretty retarded to keep trying to catch ratters after they evade you for years and years.

It's not like there aren't other ways to get risk free PvP.

[tgr]

Then they get poorer, spend less time in their 0.0 space (longer form-up times if they can be assed at all), and thus are likely (more so anyway) to get rolled by people who stay in 0.0 and HTFU.

I stopped bothering to do any carebearing in nullsec years ago.
1) I should be poor: I can pimpfit a super, if I wanted to. vOv
2) I'll spend less time in my 0.0 space: No shit, sherlock. Hisec alts, bitch, and I log in only to defend our space, or to expand it.
3) Likely to get rolled by people who stay in 0.0 and HTFU: Um, no.
4) Delayed or constellation local: Okay, you just made it even worse for roaming gangs. Have fun.
5) It would completely kill botting: No, it won't.

[Murr]

5) It would completely kill botting: No, it won't.

Absolutes aside, how it wouldn't kill it? I'm asking since I just can't think a possible workaround.

[Andski]

Absolutes aside, how it wouldn't kill it? I'm asking since I just can't think a possible workaround.

A bot can do the whole "rat aligned" thing far better than a human player, and that's not taking things like code injection or dscan spam into account.

[Gnome]

This'll make more people put their isk farming alts to hisec or FW, not because of the risk, but because of the effort of keeping safe compared to the rewards they'll get.


If you think people are whining about "afk cloakers" as it is now, you should give this a try; it'll reach a feverpitch. And it'll make more people move their isk farming alts to hisec.

If the rewards stay higher in nullsec, what would be the problem with that, pray tell?

If you think that vibrant nullsec is carebears that safe up whenever some neut enters local, go diaf.

I really don't see the problem with losing morons from nullsec because they think it's too much effort to get a higher reward.

It isn't and they're just dumb, and so are you for making the argument that they should somehow be protected.

[Manfred Hideous]

Pray tell, how often does this happen if you don't pimpfit your ship?

Pray tell how often does something happen when you watch local?

I'd say they are about equally safe for the non retards. Which is pretty stupid considering null is 'lawless'. I'd love to see a slightly delayed local. I think Zag once said someone should only show in local after they've decloaked post gate jump.

[Prodnovick]

Are we still having the "design the game to affect botters" discussion? As far as i can tell CCP is having no trouble detecting and banning bots these days. All that was needed was for CCP to actually put some effort into it and design automated(100% accurate ) detection.

[n0th]

I disagree. If I'm sitting there missioning in a L4 out in 0.0, watching local and spamming scan like a freaking coked out idiot (even with nothing in system,) I should probably be able to dodge someone who tries to come kill me.

Bringing up 0.0 L4s as an example of ~effort~ for being safe while bearing is a terrible argument.
You ECCM-fit your Tengu; you fit passive em amp so you dont get blapped by that Mach on the undock. You make undock-BMs; you refit cloak/nullifier every time before you leave system. You then proceed to make 150mil/h in absolute safety.
It takes a duder with 3bil in his head, 5mil worth of scanning skills, correctly fit t3 and perfect know-how when it comes to positioning probes via d-scan just to scan you down. Then you'll still see probes for a full minute or so. And then its impossible to sneak up on people in gated missions anymore because of new beacon decloak mechanics.

[Holdem]

Personally I think local is not part of the problem, nor of the solution. I have always regarded people whining about needing no/delayed local to catch ratters as people wanting to play EVE one easy mode and not realizing what an enormous impact delayed local will have on the viability of 0.0 for people that need to rat.

The problem is how 0.0 PvE is designed since the introduction of mass availability of anomalies and of mining plexes.

Before, (2009, until a few months after mass availability of anomaly was introduced), roamers could spend a lot of effort to roam around null sec and a few times during that roam you would get lucky; Someone would be tackled by the rats in the belt, or would be just in warp to a belt in a system you just entered. A fast scanner could capitalize on that and get a nice kill. Sometimes you would find a mining op with defensive ships in the belt as well that you could engage while the miners got safe. The absence of anomalies also meant that ratters would be more spread out in a region, which combined with the lesser degree of safety resulted in more skirmishes, in contrast to the roaming around until you get blobbed from a home system that we have now.

At the moment, 0.0 PvE is designed as such that people are in effect insulated from all danger if they want to be, while still being very profitable. It is also designed in such a way that a lot of people can use the same constellation.

PvE in 0.0 needs to be less insulated from danger and the rewards need to be higher to still make it attractive.

I would like to see something along the lines of:

- Delete mining plexes. Give mining ihub upgrades a boost to yield or cargo or w/e else is important to miners. Mining plexes are literally retarded ISK printing thingies.
- Either do the same with combat anomalies or make anomalies so tough to do including tacklers, that they become mini plexes that require teamwork.
- Increase the value of Belt spawns

2009 was awesome for solo/small gang roaming. The above would go a long way in bringing it back.

[Hardin]

Pray tell how often does something happen when you watch local?

I'd say they are about equally safe for the non retards. Which is pretty stupid considering null is 'lawless'. I'd love to see a slightly delayed local. I think Zag once said someone should only show in local after they've decloaked post gate jump.

Agree with Manfred on this. A slight delay would be fine. Anything more would be excessive. While 'in theory' everyone should be safe if watching local like a hawk now that does not actually work in reality. Just take a look at some of the stupid ratting losses in Provi on a day to day basis. While I know it can be fustrating for a roamer to jump into a system and everyone instantly go safe there are stilll plenty of times this does not happen and roamers should not expect to be ganking someone each and every time they jump into a new system...

[Ron Mexxico]

Bringing up 0.0 L4s as an example of ~effort~ for being safe while bearing is a terrible argument.
You ECCM-fit your Tengu; you fit passive em amp so you dont get blapped by that Mach on the undock. You make undock-BMs; you refit cloak/nullifier every time before you leave system. You then proceed to make 150mil/h in absolute safety.
It takes a duder with 3bil in his head, 5mil worth of scanning skills, correctly fit t3 and perfect know-how when it comes to positioning probes via d-scan just to scan you down. Then you'll still see probes for a full minute or so. And then its impossible to sneak up on people in gated missions anymore because of new beacon decloak mechanics.

EDIT

all that is dumb as fuck. use the moses fit and never worry about shit

[Hilmar Keller]

Holy shit I post one two-line response, go to bed, wake up, it's become a thread.

E: Anyway, what I didn't say in my article was that the brokenness of this system is evident by the means required to catch a ratter: There's basically three ways, one is being AFK cloaked in a system for hours and waiting for people to get bored and start ratting despite a neutral/hostile being in system, another is awoxing, and a third is logging off in a belt/plex and logging back in at peak time. The people who use these techniques are reviled by their victims as dishonoureable cheaters. I'm not saying that I care about the opinion of carebears, or that their opinions would change if I caught them the 'old fashioned way' (in my experience they love to complain), but the people against this local change wouldn't be behind any change that endangers their riskless ISK generation because they don't see what they do as something subject to EVE's sandbox. And that's their mistake.

[Razzor]

go fuck yourself

The sigs evolving :3

[Razzor]

Also on topic - I just don't care anymore, I was devastated when CCP introduced collapsible local lists and how the Eve community just bent over and took it. There is nothing hardcore about Eve anymore and certainly not 0.0 and this flashing local now ? get fucked. CCP's attitude about the dark evil universe is gone. Let it go~