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Thread: Israel blocking Palestine harbors

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    Default Israel blocking Palestine harbors

    Backstory:

    Israel dropped special forces on a Turkish convoy en route to the Gaza strip last week. They said it was to prevent a weapon shipment, although the ships were loaded with humanitarian relieve goods.

    Iran is going to send a convoy to Gaza now, and is claiming to protect it with its navy until they arrive. The Iranian navy usually doesn't operate outside the Persian Gulf region due to the heavy US Navy presence there.

    So, is this going to escalate into something bigger or is it just some cage rattling by a frustrated iranian commander?

    New development

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    It's just another attempt by Iran to start a bit of a war with Israel. They will try to break the blockade, get sunk and then rage about the evil Jews to a world press that will lap it up. We all know that Israel aren't exactly a nice country to their neighbours, however the utter one sided coverage of the storming of those "aid" shipments is really annoying.

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    I hope the Iranian ships bring replacement electronics, replacement props, etc. because I predict lots of mishaps

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    Who would have known a thousand years ago that the middle east would become so utterly retarded.
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    The media is spinning like a fucking top about Israel at the moment.

    They boarded an aid convoy with the intention of forcing it into port before the blockade was reached, sent aboard were men armed with paintball guns that fire teargas/pepperspray and handguns.

    The media reported they were armed with 'rifles'

    Once aboard they were stoned and beaten and stabbed by a mob of activists and militants. Men had a choice of being mobbed to death or of defending themselves. Activists in the aid convoy are known to have placed themselves there with the aim of creating a diplomatic incident.

    The stated aim of Israel was to have the aid carried by this flotilla transported over land by truck into the areas under blockade. The reason for this being Israel wanted to ensure there were no weapons shipments 'accidentally' mixed in with the aid.

    tl;dr Israels justified and proportional response ran into planned difficulties and now they are being demonized in the press.
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    Quote Originally Posted by xutech View Post
    Who would have known a thousand years ago that the middle east would become so utterly retarded.
    Well perhaps following the second world war people should have exercised more forethought in where they settled Jewish refugees and how land was parceled up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steyn
    Foreign-policy "realists," back in the saddle since the Texan cowboy left town, are extremely fond of the concept of "stability": America needs a stable Middle East, so we should learn to live with Hosni Mubarak and the mullahs and the House of Saud, etc. You can see the appeal of "stability" to your big-time geopolitical analyst: You don't have to update your Rolodex too often, never mind rethinking your assumptions. "Stability" is a fancy term to upgrade inertia and complacency into strategy. No wonder the fetishization of stability is one of the most stable features of foreign-policy analysis.

    Unfortunately, back in what passes for the real world, there is no stability. History is always on the march, and, if it's not moving in your direction, it's generally moving in the other fellow's. Take this "humanitarian" "aid" flotilla. Much of what went on - the dissembling of the Palestinian propagandists, the hysteria of the United Nations and the Euro-ninnies - was just business as usual. But what was most striking was the behavior of the Turks. In the wake of the Israeli raid, Ankara promised to provide Turkish naval protection for the next "aid" convoy to Gaza. This would be, in effect, an act of war - more to the point, an act of war by a NATO member against the state of Israel.

    Ten years ago, Turkey's behavior would have been unthinkable. Ankara was Israel's best friend in a region where every other neighbor wishes, to one degree or another, the Jewish state's destruction. Even when Recep Tayyip Erdogan's Justice and Development Party (AKP) was elected to power eight years ago, the experts assured us there was no need to worry. I remember sitting in a plush bar late one night with a former Turkish foreign minister, who told me, between passing round the cigars and chugging back the Scotch, that, yes, the new crowd wasn't quite so convivial but they knew where their interests lay. Like many Turkish movers and shakers of his generation, my drinking companion loved the Israelis. "They're tough hombres," he said admiringly. "You have to be in this part of the world." If you had suggested to him that in six years, the Turkish prime minister would be telling the Israeli president to his face, "I know well how you kill children on beaches," he would have dismissed it as a fantasy concoction for some alternative universe.

    Yet it happened. Mr. Erdogan said those words to Shimon Peres at Davos last year and then flounced off stage. Day by day, what was formerly the Zionist entity's staunchest pal talks more and more like just another cookie-cutter death-to-the-Great-Satan stan-of-the-month.

    As the think-tankers like to say: "Who lost Turkey?" In a nutshell: Kemal Ataturk. Since he founded post-Ottoman Turkey in his own image nearly nine decades ago, the population has increased from 14 million to more than 70 million. But that fivefold increase is not evenly distributed. The short version of Turkish demographics in the 20th century is that Rumelian Turkey - i.e., Western, European, secular, Kemalist Turkey - has been outbred by Anatolian Turkey - i.e., Eastern, rural, traditionalist, Islamic Turkey. Ataturk and most of his supporters were from Rumelia, and they imposed the modern Turkish republic on a reluctant Anatolia, where Ataturk's distinction between the state and Islam was never accepted. Now the Anatolians don't have to accept it. The swelling population has spilled out of its rural hinterland and into the once solidly Kemalist cities.

    Do you ever use the expression "Young Turks"? I heard it applied to the starry-eyed ideologues around President Obama the other day. The phrase comes from the original Young Turks, the youthful activists agitating for reform in the last decades of the Ottoman Empire. The very words acknowledge the link between political and demographic energy. Today, the Young Turks are old Turks: The heirs to the Kemalist reformers, who gave women the vote before Britain did, are a population in demographic decline. There will be fewer of them in every election. Today's Young Turks are men who think as Mr. Erdogan does. That doesn't mean Turkey is Iran or Waziristan or Saudi Arabia, but it does mean that the country's leadership is in favor of more or less conventional Islamic imperialism. As Mr. Erdogan's most famous sound bite puts it: "The mosques are our barracks, the domes our helmets, the minarets our bayonets and the faithful our soldiers."

    Some Western "experts" like to see this as merely a confident, economically buoyant Turkey's "re-Ottomanization." But the virulent anti-Semitism emanating from Mr. Erdogan's fief has nothing to do with the old-time caliphate and is all but undistinguishable from the globalized hyper-Islam successfully seeded around the world by Wahhabist money and enthusiastically embraced by third-generation Euro-Muslims. Since Sept. 11, 2001, many of us have speculated about Muslim reform, in the Arab world and beyond. It's hard to recall now, but just a few years ago, there was talk about whether Gen. Pervez Musharraf would be Pakistan's Ataturk. Instead, what we're witnessing is the most prominent example of Muslim reform being de-reformed, before our very eyes, in nothing flat.

    Demography is destiny, for the most part. For example, European Muslim populations are young, fast-growing and profoundly hostile to Jews. European Jewish populations are old, fading and irrelevant to domestic electoral calculations. Think of your stereotypically squishy pol, and then figure the reserves of courage it would require for the European establishment not to be anti-Israeli and, indeed, ever more anti-Israeli as the years go by.

    But demography alone isn't always destiny. A confident culture can dominate far larger numbers of people, as England did for much of modern history. Bismarck's famous remark that if the British army invaded Germany, he'd send the local police force to arrest them is generally taken as a sneer at the minimal size of Her Britannic Majesty's armed forces. In another sense, however, it's a testament to how much the British accomplished with so little.

    Mr. Erdogan would not be palling up to Mahmoud Ahmadinejad in Iran and Boy Assad in Syria and even Sudan's genocidal President Omar al-Bashir, the Butcher of Darfur, if he were mindful of Turkey's relationship with the United States. But he isn't. He looks at the American hyperpower and sees, to all intents, a late Ottoman sultan - pampered, decadent, lounging on its cushions, puffing a hookah but unable to rouse itself to impose its will in the world. In that sense, Turkey's contempt for Israel is also an expression of near total contempt for Washington.

    Is Mr. Erdogan wrong in his calculation? Or is he, in his own fashion, only reaching his own conclusions about what Israel, India, the Czech Republic and others are coming to see as "the post-American world"? Well, look at it as if you're sitting in the presidential palace of some Third World basket case. Iran is going nuclear in full view of the world and with huge implications for everything, not least the price of oil. Meanwhile, NATO's only Muslim member has decided it would rather be friends with Iran, Sudan and Syria. And all this in the first decade of the 21st century. So much for stability.

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    Quality post there Fartman. Nice info.

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    My opinion is pretty much that they can kill them selfs as much as they want.
    But Israel went stupidly under prepared on that ship, in that lays most of that blame with them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krauthammer
    The world is outraged at Israel's blockade of Gaza. Turkey denounces its illegality, inhumanity, barbarity, etc. The usual U.N. suspects, Third World and European, join in. The Obama administration dithers.

    But as Leslie Gelb, former president of the Council on Foreign Relations, writes, the blockade is not just perfectly rational, it is perfectly legal. Gaza under Hamas is a self-declared enemy of Israel -- a declaration backed up by more than 4,000 rockets fired at Israeli civilian territory. Yet having pledged itself to unceasing belligerency, Hamas claims victimhood when Israel imposes a blockade to prevent Hamas from arming itself with still more rockets.

    In World War II, with full international legality, the United States blockaded Germany and Japan. And during the October 1962 missile crisis, we blockaded ("quarantined") Cuba. Arms-bearing Russian ships headed to Cuba turned back because the Soviets knew that the U.S. Navy would either board them or sink them. Yet Israel is accused of international criminality for doing precisely what John Kennedy did: impose a naval blockade to prevent a hostile state from acquiring lethal weaponry.

    Oh, but weren't the Gaza-bound ships on a mission of humanitarian relief? No. Otherwise they would have accepted Israel's offer to bring their supplies to an Israeli port, be inspected for military materiel and have the rest trucked by Israel into Gaza -- as every week 10,000 tons of food, medicine and other humanitarian supplies are sent by Israel to Gaza.

    Why was the offer refused? Because, as organizer Greta Berlin admitted, the flotilla was not about humanitarian relief but about breaking the blockade, i.e., ending Israel's inspection regime, which would mean unlimited shipping into Gaza and thus the unlimited arming of Hamas.

    Israel has already twice intercepted ships laden with Iranian arms destined for Hezbollah and Gaza. What country would allow that?

    But even more important, why did Israel even have to resort to blockade? Because, blockade is Israel's fallback as the world systematically de-legitimizes its traditional ways of defending itself -- forward and active defense.

    (1) Forward defense: As a small, densely populated country surrounded by hostile states, Israel had, for its first half-century, adopted forward defense -- fighting wars on enemy territory (such as the Sinai and Golan Heights) rather than its own.

    Where possible (Sinai, for example) Israel has traded territory for peace. But where peace offers were refused, Israel retained the territory as a protective buffer zone. Thus Israel retained a small strip of southern Lebanon to protect the villages of northern Israel. And it took many losses in Gaza, rather than expose Israeli border towns to Palestinian terror attacks. It is for the same reason America wages a grinding war in Afghanistan: You fight them there, so you don't have to fight them here.

    But under overwhelming outside pressure, Israel gave it up. The Israelis were told the occupations were not just illegal but at the root of the anti-Israel insurgencies -- and therefore withdrawal, by removing the cause, would bring peace.

    Land for peace. Remember? Well, during the past decade, Israel gave the land -- evacuating South Lebanon in 2000 and Gaza in 2005. What did it get? An intensification of belligerency, heavy militarization of the enemy side, multiple kidnappings, cross-border attacks and, from Gaza, years of unrelenting rocket attack.

    (2) Active defense: Israel then had to switch to active defense -- military action to disrupt, dismantle and defeat (to borrow President Obama's description of our campaign against the Taliban and al-Qaeda) the newly armed terrorist mini-states established in southern Lebanon and Gaza after Israel withdrew.

    The result? The Lebanon war of 2006 and Gaza operation of 2008-09. They were met with yet another avalanche of opprobrium and calumny by the same international community that had demanded the land-for-peace Israeli withdrawals in the first place. Worse, the U.N. Goldstone report, which essentially criminalized Israel's defensive operation in Gaza while whitewashing the casus belli -- the preceding and unprovoked Hamas rocket war -- effectively de-legitimized any active Israeli defense against its self-declared terror enemies.

    (3) Passive defense: Without forward or active defense, Israel is left with but the most passive and benign of all defenses -- a blockade to simply prevent enemy rearmament. Yet, as we speak, this too is headed for international de-legitimation. Even the United States is now moving toward having it abolished.

    But, if none of these is permissible, what's left?

    Ah, but that's the point. It's the point understood by the blockade-busting flotilla of useful idiots and terror sympathizers, by the Turkish front organization that funded it, by the automatic anti-Israel Third World chorus at the United Nations, and by the supine Europeans who've had quite enough of the Jewish problem.

    What's left? Nothing. The whole point of this relentless international campaign is to deprive Israel of any legitimate form of self-defense. Why, just last week, the Obama administration joined the jackals, and reversed four decades of U.S. practice, by signing onto a consensus document that singles out Israel's possession of nuclear weapons -- thus de-legitimizing Israel's very last line of defense: deterrence.

    The world is tired of these troublesome Jews, 6 million -- that number again -- hard by the Mediterranean, refusing every invitation to national suicide. For which they are relentlessly demonized, ghettoized and constrained from defending themselves, even as the more committed anti-Zionists -- Iranian in particular -- openly prepare a more final solution.

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    Here is what happened.

    1. Israel headshot sniperkilled the computer technical guy (this was before they boarded the boat)
    2. Israel fired stun grenades, tear gas etc on the ship (this was before they boarded the boat)
    3. A Brittish journalist from Press TV does a live interview stating they are under attack. You guessed it - the Journalist is on the boat videoing everything (this is before they boarded the boat)
    4. A Commando shouts that he is going to kill everyone on loudspeaker.
    5. More potshots and stun grenades are shot. The people on the boat user water cannon to stop commandos boarding.
    6. A activest waves a white flag of surrender. The Israeli commando shoots him square in the head.
    7. All hell breaks loose. Thinking that they are all gonna die, Activists pick up sticks and use catapults with marbles (Like the catapults kids use).
    8. Isreali commandos shoot 27 people, killing 8. They then handcuff the rest and place them in stress positions to cut off circulation.
    9. A commando shoots a pistol point blank in the back of the head of one handcuffed Activist. He becomes the 9th victim and the 28th person shot.
    10. After learning that the press was on board, the commandos cease their killing and place the activats in stress positions for approx 15 hours. The activists were then forced to sign wavers. One Irish activates had his face beaten to a pulp when he refused. The female activates had their underwear stolen by the commandos. The turkish activates were tortured until they signed wavers.
    11. Pro Israeli media puts out a highly edited video to convince people that the people on board were somehow terrorists insted of victims.

    Thats what happened. What is shocking is whe video broadcast from the boat by the Brittish Jouralist while Isreal was shooting and throwing grenades. You can see the video at presstv or on youtube.

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    Oh man turkey is becoming more and more Islamic, I CAN'T IMAGINE WHAT US FOREIGN POLICY WOULD OF CAUSED THIS.

    Oh wait it's because the people in the horrible "eastern" islamic part of the country (hint: this is like 90% of the country) are having more kids Totally nothing to do with impromtu invasions, alienation of an entire religion, and brutal oppression for the sake of "preserving" our "freedom" from "terrorism"
    The idea that I have "free will" is the only irrational belief that I allow myself.

    If I am wrong, I had no choice in the matter.

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    The guy above, not yorda, obviously believes that Israel is at fault. I mean this goes so deep and beyond one incident obviously it is so hard for me to choose a side, but I do agree with Agathor. In this instance Israel boarded the boat and killed some people. We know now, to some extent, the story, but I really can't blame the Israelis for acting a certain way, but they were the one's who did board and didn't truly exercise due caution. At the same time those who provoked the soldiers are idiots. I think you have to go into this "floatilla" thing as trying to break a military blockade and "it" may hit the fan, which I think most can agree that this is best case scenario for the activists. I don't believe that they actually felt like they would get across, they just wanted to show Israel in a poor light.

    It's all a fucked up mess. But I can say with certainty, if Israel gets really fired up I don't want to be on the other end.

    On another note, Fartman where did you find those two articles? Both were well written and I found them to be super interesting. Just curious.

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    Krauthammer writes for the WaPo (among others - he's a pretty well known columnist).
    He's also a frequent guest/contributor on the FNC 6-7pm newscast with Bret Baier ("the Panel")

    Mark Steyn writes all over, i'm not sure what his "home" publication is these days.
    He writes for National Review (as does Krauthammer), the OC Register, WSJ, etc.

    I particularly enjoy reposting Steyn's stuff here, when topical, as he's a recovering Canadian and he makes Yorda's eyes bulge out of his head.

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    Turkey is rather safe as long as the military leadership isn't replaced any time soon, as weird as it may sound the Military is far less extremist than the government.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aurora148 View Post
    Turkey is rather safe as long as the military leadership isn't replaced any time soon, as weird as it may sound the Military is far less extremist than the government.
    same is (was?) true of pakistan.. how's that working out for us?

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    one good thing to come out of all this, i must say, is that we'll never have to look at this again


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    Pakistan was never pro-europe like Turkey, they were just happy to take American money. The Pakistani military government has always been happy to fall back on Muslim rhetoric when it's convienient whereas Turkey was up til recently secular, pro-western and happy for dialogue with Israel. Of course Turkey is still happy to kill Kurds, deny the Amenian holocaust and some other faux pax, but who knows where the country is going now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fartman View Post
    same is (was?) true of pakistan.. how's that working out for us?
    We get to regularly bomb the shit out of them, I would of thought you'd love that.
    The idea that I have "free will" is the only irrational belief that I allow myself.

    If I am wrong, I had no choice in the matter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Algey View Post
    It's just another attempt by Iran to start a bit of a war with Israel. They will try to break the blockade, get sunk and then rage about the evil Jews to a world press that will lap it up. We all know that Israel aren't exactly a nice country to their neighbours, however the utter one sided coverage of the storming of those "aid" shipments is really annoying.
    Actually Iran stated their attempt at helping to break their blockade after hearing Turkey (An Israeli ally) would also be sending a military escort. Iran's announcement also comes a week after Israel sent submarines armed with nuclear missiles to be stationed off the coast of Iran. Earlier this year, Israel said that if Iran was found to have nuclear weapons, Israel would ensure that a Mutually Assured Destruction scenario would occur.

    Israel has multiple times threatened Iran with nuclear weapons, and every time has done so with the claim that it has a right to self-defense. While Israel does have the right of self-defense, the same is true about Iran. To claim they're trying to start a war when they're the ones constantly under threat of attack from Israel is absurd.

    Quote Originally Posted by RansomList View Post
    They boarded an aid convoy with the intention of forcing it into port before the blockade was reached, sent aboard were men armed with paintball guns that fire teargas/pepperspray and handguns.

    The media reported they were armed with 'rifles'
    The reason the media reports that the Israeli soldiers were armed with rifles is that there are multiple videos (filmed by the media and streamed live to the internet) showing the Israeli soldiers shooting rifles at people. There are also multiple people who died of gunshot wounds. That all points heavily to rifles, and not at all to paintballs.

    There was also no reason to board the ships in the first place. They could have blocked the ship's path and prevented it from going to Gaza (like those whale lovers do to the Japanese whalers) or they could have taken out the propellers of the boats and then tugged them. At no point was boarding the boats from helicopters the safest option for anyone.

    A lot of the uproar is also because the boats were in international water, and it is considered a criminal act to attack boats you're not at war with in international waters.

    Quote Originally Posted by RansomList View Post
    Once aboard they were stoned and beaten and stabbed by a mob of activists and militants. Men had a choice of being mobbed to death or of defending themselves.
    People tend to try and defend themselves when people are trying to kill them. If all they have are rocks and sticks (because they purposefully avoided bringing any guns) then that is what they'll have to resort to.

    There is also footage of the activists taking weapons from the Israeli soldiers and throwing them overboard, and footage of the activists taking Israeli soldiers and basically holding them captive. There are no reports (including from Israel) which state that even one Israeli soldier was wounded - they had more than enough opportunities to kill or harm the soldiers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fartman View Post
    In World War II, with full international legality, the United States blockaded Germany and Japan. And during the October 1962 missile crisis, we blockaded ("quarantined") Cuba. Arms-bearing Russian ships headed to Cuba turned back because the Soviets knew that the U.S. Navy would either board them or sink them. Yet Israel is accused of international criminality for doing precisely what John Kennedy did: impose a naval blockade to prevent a hostile state from acquiring lethal weaponry.
    It isn't internationally illegal to blockade a country you are at war with. Israel doesn't recognize the existence of a Palestinian nation, and has not declared war on Hamas.

    The American quarantine of Cuba was illegal and almost brought the U.S. and the U.S.S.R. into nuclear conflict.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fartman View Post
    Oh, but weren't the Gaza-bound ships on a mission of humanitarian relief? No. Otherwise they would have accepted Israel's offer to bring their supplies to an Israeli port, be inspected for military materiel and have the rest trucked by Israel into Gaza -- as every week 10,000 tons of food, medicine and other humanitarian supplies are sent by Israel to Gaza.
    The reason they didn't accept Israeli inspection was Israel's declaration they would take any contraband, not just weapons. Contraband includes 'unacceptable food items' such as chocolate, 'possible weapons' such as shovels and spades for construction, and also forbids construction materials such as cement. For some reason school supplies (including crayons and coloring books) are also considered contraband.

    Israel does not allow any of these items into Gaza, and the purpose was to try and get them in. The idea that everything is fine in Gaza because of the 10,000 tons of what Israel allows in, is bullshit. It is the typical "See? The workers are happy!" propaganda spouted by the U.S.S.R. What an odd coincidence! That is where a large chunk of Israeli politicians are from.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fartman View Post
    Where possible (Sinai, for example) Israel has traded territory for peace. But where peace offers were refused, Israel retained the territory as a protective buffer zone. Thus Israel retained a small strip of southern Lebanon to protect the villages of northern Israel. And it took many losses in Gaza, rather than expose Israeli border towns to Palestinian terror attacks.
    It is internationally illegal to acquire land through war. No exceptions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fartman View Post
    Well, during the past decade, Israel gave the land -- evacuating South Lebanon in 2000 and Gaza in 2005. What did it get? An intensification of belligerency, heavy militarization of the enemy side, multiple kidnappings, cross-border attacks and, from Gaza, years of unrelenting rocket attack.
    Occupying a land for decades and building absolutely no infrastructure, while killing many of its people and saying it is because they are a danger to your own, tends to do that.

    They also could have avoided the heavy militarization of Gaza by not allowing Hamas to participate in the Gaza elections. Both the United States and Israel had the ability to veto any political parties from participating in the elections, and they both said Hamas was acceptable. Hamas then won what the United Nations decided was a fair election, and were labeled a terrorist state by both Israel and the United States.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fartman View Post
    The Lebanon war of 2006 and Gaza operation of 2008-09. They were met with yet another avalanche of opprobrium and calumny by the same international community that had demanded the land-for-peace Israeli withdrawals in the first place. Worse, the U.N. Goldstone report, which essentially criminalized Israel's defensive operation in Gaza while whitewashing the casus belli -- the preceding and unprovoked Hamas rocket war -- effectively de-legitimized any active Israeli defense against its self-declared terror enemies.
    The Gaza operation killed more civilians than Hamas government officials. Internationally banned war practices (such as the use of white phosphorus where civilians might be injured) were also conducted.

    The casus beli was small homemade rockets which have very little explosive power. Since the rocket assaults started in 2001, there were a total of 13 deaths. Israel responded by killing 1,200 civilians.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fartman View Post
    What's left? Nothing. The whole point of this relentless international campaign is to deprive Israel of any legitimate form of self-defense.
    Israel first has to be under attack before it can defend itself. The American war against Iraq was touted as a war of self-defense, but it wasn't. The same is true of Israel's war against a city with a population of only 409,000 people. It is a completely one-sided engagement, and the citizens of Palestine have no real way of doing significant harm to Israel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fartman View Post
    The world is tired of these troublesome Jews, 6 million -- that number again -- hard by the Mediterranean, refusing every invitation to national suicide. For which they are relentlessly demonized, ghettoized and constrained from defending themselves, even as the more committed anti-Zionists -- Iranian in particular -- openly prepare a more final solution.
    Oh look, it is the mandatory Holocaust reference. It is very relevant to discussion of Israel's treatment of Palestine because the two are completely unconnected in every way.

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    Protip: More people died on the aid flotilla than have died to rocket attacks on Israel.
    The idea that I have "free will" is the only irrational belief that I allow myself.

    If I am wrong, I had no choice in the matter.

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    I say we blame the League of Nations or we could blame the British for the Mandate of Palestine. Believing that this would solve everything until they realized that you cannot create a Jewish home in Palestine without upsetting, guess who, Palestinians, surprise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thirsty McDrinkerston View Post
    I say we blame the League of Nations or we could blame the British for the Mandate of Palestine. Believing that this would solve everything until they realized that you cannot create a Jewish home in Palestine without upsetting, guess who, Palestinians, surprise.
    Yes, I think it was a surprise to everyone that Israel survived the Arab-Israeli war.
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    Quote Originally Posted by xutech View Post
    Yes, I think it was a surprise to everyone that Israel survived the Arab-Israeli war.
    I don't know much about that, but I can say that the whole Mandate was just another political piece of crap that would never have worked and couldn't be successfully implemented peacefully. I think history has proven this and the Wars you mention are a perfect example.

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    even if we built an island in the middle of the atlantic, called it israel and moved all the jews there, arabs would still find reason to want it off the map.

    its a war that will go on for all of time unless both parties are simultaneously neutered.

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    There seems to be quite a lot of misunderstanding of what commandos do when storming a ship in this thread. I suggest people take a look at this photo http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...Gaza-raid.html

    There is your heavily armed commando who landed amongst a hail of gunfire, lying disarmed on the floor, looking terrified and with defense wounds to his hands. The photo is from the people on the ship by the way. 20 commandos with automatic weapons would simply massacre 600 unarmed peaceful people before they could get into melee range. For people armed with automatic weapons killing 12 people is nothing, you'd get higher casualties from boarding the ship with muskets.

    As for Iran that is a country that like Hammas accepts that Israel must be destroyed. Imagine a country close to yours that demanded the destruction of your people and country, and ask how you'd behave towards them. Yes Israel does nothing to strengthen the cause of the less violent Palestinians or Iranians, but the beliefs of Hammas and Iran are also unacceptable.

    I'd just like to see both sides of the conflict represented fairly, but I doubt it will happen in the mainstream media.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Algey View Post
    As for Iran that is a country that like Hammas accepts that Israel must be destroyed. Imagine a country close to yours that demanded the destruction of your people and country, and ask how you'd behave towards them. Yes Israel does nothing to strengthen the cause of the less violent Palestinians or Iranians, but the beliefs of Hammas and Iran are also unacceptable.
    I think any reasonable person would understand that. The problem is, just when one side does something stupid, the other side seems to try to outdo it.

    Being persecuted does not mean that your actions become excusable. In some ways, when you are suffering, it is even more important to set an example of better conduct.

    If I were an Israeli citizen, I would be seriously questioning how it is that my government has become so flawed on a systemic level as to make stupid mistakes like this. Accusations of media bias and the virtual siege of Israel have been used as an excuse for military and political incompetence. Israel has once again lost internation support, including the support of Turkey, because it was too lazy to recognise that boarding a ship full of protesters would become a media nightmare.
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    Former Former Community Manager and Former Chief Senior Analyst Vinata's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aurora148 View Post
    even if we built an island in the middle of the atlantic, called it israel and moved all the jews there, arabs would still find reason to want it off the map.

    its a war that will go on for all of time unless both parties are simultaneously neutered.
    It has little to do with Israel's population being 75% Jewish, and more to do with the displacement of the Palestinian people and the illegal seizure of Arab lands.

    Quote Originally Posted by Algey View Post
    There seems to be quite a lot of misunderstanding of what commandos do when storming a ship in this thread. I suggest people take a look at this photo http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...Gaza-raid.html
    I see a guy on the ground, bleeding and looking terrified. I have no clue what the circumstances are surrounding it, if he is shot or not, or what the people around him are doing. The IDF says the photo shows proof that the soldiers were being killed, the activists say it is proof that they were trying to give medical attention to a soldier. There is no actual information to be gained from this photo other than the fact an Israeli soldier was hurt while on the boat.

    I was wrong when I said no Israelis were wounded. I've checked and I was wrong when I said they grabbed Israeli weapons and threw them away - while that did occur, on two occasions handguns were taken from the Israeli and used against them. There were no non-Israeli firearms found on the vessels.

    The point still stands that there were easier, safer, and non-violent ways to divert the boats away from the blockade. The Israeli government chose not to do any of them. Why? Who knows. It makes absolutely no sense why they would choose to board the boats at night as opposed to disabling or diverting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Algey View Post
    As for Iran that is a country that like Hammas accepts that Israel must be destroyed. Imagine a country close to yours that demanded the destruction of your people and country, and ask how you'd behave towards them. Yes Israel does nothing to strengthen the cause of the less violent Palestinians or Iranians, but the beliefs of Hammas and Iran are also unacceptable.
    Iran has never stated that Israel must be destroyed. The President of Iran said that time would erase Israel from the map, and this was misquoted as "Israel must be wiped off the map." There is a huge difference between the two statements.

    And ok, I'll do a little imagination game. It shouldn't be hard. I'm from an oil-producing state which attempted to rely upon nuclear power in order to increase the amount of oil it exports. I'm near a sovereign nation which at one point threatened my exact city and my school with nuclear annihilation, and said country was backed by a world super power.

    What do I want to happen to the people of Cuba, who threatened to destroy Dallas, Texas during the Cuban Missile Crisis? I don't want them to be destroyed or killed. I also don't want sanctions against them. This is because I'm not a horrible human being, and also because I realize sanctions only work against democratically elected governments (which Cuba and Iran aren't).

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    Don't stop posting! RansomList's Avatar
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    Iran has never stated that Israel must be destroyed. The President of Iran said that time would erase Israel from the map, and this was misquoted as "Israel must be wiped off the map." There is a huge difference between the two statements.
    I think you are missing the point somewhat.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RansomList View Post
    The media is spinning like a fucking top about Israel at the moment.

    They boarded an aid convoy with the intention of forcing it into port before the blockade was reached, sent aboard were men armed with paintball guns that fire teargas/pepperspray and handguns.

    The media reported they were armed with 'rifles'

    Once aboard they were stoned and beaten and stabbed by a mob of activists and militants. Men had a choice of being mobbed to death or of defending themselves. Activists in the aid convoy are known to have placed themselves there with the aim of creating a diplomatic incident.

    The stated aim of Israel was to have the aid carried by this flotilla transported over land by truck into the areas under blockade. The reason for this being Israel wanted to ensure there were no weapons shipments 'accidentally' mixed in with the aid.

    tl;dr Israels justified and proportional response ran into planned difficulties and now they are being demonized in the press.
    SWAT-team pirate-style rappels onto an aid convoy in international waters, people on the boat defend themselves, nine (iirc) of the ships crew die. Obviously Israel handled this correctly. No.

    UN should denounce Israel, they've had their fun and zionists obviously aren't fit to have a country of their own.

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    Former Former Community Manager and Former Chief Senior Analyst Vinata's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RansomList View Post
    I think you are missing the point somewhat.
    He said Iran thinks Israel needs to be destroyed, and that is false.

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    Nuke the fucking lot of them and take their oil - problem solved.

    EDIT: Actually - FIRST do what Pershing did in the Phillipines. The mere threat of that might even shut the fucking lot of em up so everyone can concentrate on something important - like where their next lay is coming from :P

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    That's so money Thirsty McDrinkerston's Avatar
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    we have seen this all before and if it wouldn't stop then it won't stop anytime soon.. maritime fighting i love it


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    I just hope this is the last of retard religion based wars.
    The idea that I have "free will" is the only irrational belief that I allow myself.

    If I am wrong, I had no choice in the matter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorda View Post
    I just hope this is the last of retard religion based wars.
    Hmmm.. I predict the next war is a Taoism vs. Shintoism... Yes, you heard it first.

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    Agnostics of the world UNITE!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wusti View Post
    Agnostics of the world UNITE!
    Uh oh are we getting into an Atheistic vs. Agnostic debate? Hooray Agnostics..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinata View Post
    He said Iran thinks Israel needs to be destroyed, and that is false.
    Iran has not threatened to destroy Israel as such, however...

    He was quoting the old religious leader, and used an active transitive verb. The idea that you could translate that as anything involving the regime occupying Jerusalem vanishing into the mists of time is not quite right. It is more they should be removed from history, and we would translate that as actively removing them from history. It is worth remembering that the translation was Iranian, and it wasn't until the world was up in arms that the somewhat more pleasant translation appeared.

    So it did not say Iran must destroy Israel, but that the regime occupying Jerusalem must be actively removed from history. To me that is a country accepting that Israel must be destroyed. Hammas on the other hand just wants to kill all the Jews, which is slightly more insane than Iran but based on direct quotes from some haddiths.

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    Friend Computer xutech's Avatar
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    The Iranian government regards the Protocols of the Elders of Zion as a real document.

    I think that makes their position clear on Jewish people.
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    http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177789

    Although most of the recent talk regarding flotillas has revolved around ships sailing toward Gaza, at least two plans have emerged for “reverse flotillas” – from Israel toward Turkey – to highlight what organizers have labeled the Turks’ “shameless hypocrisy” in their criticisms of the Jewish state.

    The most ambitious of the two plans has been devised by members of Israel’s National Student Union, who this week announced their intention to set sail toward Turkey, in an effort to bring humanitarian aid to the “oppressed people of Turkish Kurdistan” and to members of the “Turkish Armenian minority.”

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    That's so money Thirsty McDrinkerston's Avatar
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    I getting together my "floatilla" for Mexico. Let's see what happens. Actually, knowing the police there I will probably be shot or let go depending how much money I take with me. I wonder what they would do with the those below??? I think that is where the activists went wrong. You need attractive chicks

    [spoiler=watch out here they come][/spoiler]

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    Former Former Community Manager and Former Chief Senior Analyst Vinata's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wusti View Post
    Nuke the fucking lot of them and take their oil - problem solved.

    EDIT: Actually - FIRST do what Pershing did in the Phillipines. The mere threat of that might even shut the fucking lot of em up so everyone can concentrate on something important - like where their next lay is coming from :P
    Neither Israel nor Palestine have enough worth bothering.

    Also Pershing surrounded the Moors in the Phillipines, cut off their supplies, and then denied them a fight. Since they wanted to fight to the death and become martyrs, he denied them that opportunity and starved them until they gave up. If you were referring to the pig's blood nonsense, that is based on a complete misunderstanding of Islam. Muslims view pigs and pork products the same way Jews do, and touching/eating/bathing in the blood of a pig won't forbid anyone entrance to paradise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thirsty McDrinkerston View Post
    Hmmm.. I predict the next war is a Taoism vs. Shintoism... Yes, you heard it first.
    The correct term is simply Shinto. That conflict has already occurred (kinda) because Imperial Shinto was the main driving force of the Japanese Empire and its military.

    Would have to be a caravan if they want to get it to the Kurds. Which they already do. Nice gesture though, Turkey really needs to be called out on that shit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinata View Post
    If you were referring to the pig's blood nonsense, that is based on a complete misunderstanding of Islam. Muslims view pigs and pork products the same way Jews do, and touching/eating/bathing in the blood of a pig won't forbid anyone entrance to paradise.
    Don'r ruin a good story with the truth ffs, and I was referring to all Islamic countries in the Middle East - not just Palestine and Israel. Whilst tongue-in-cheek, fuck wouldn;t it make things so much simpler?

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    Former Former Community Manager and Former Chief Senior Analyst Vinata's Avatar
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    Only if the same worked for Hindus and cows, and Christians and crosses.

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    That's so money Thirsty McDrinkerston's Avatar
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    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/gaza_blockade

    Fattouh said Israeli officials rebuffed Palestinian requests for construction goods, raw materials for factories to operate and medical devices.

    "I think Israel wants to diffuse international pressure," said Fattouh. "They want to show people that they are allowing things into Gaza. But it's not important for Gaza. The important thing for us is construction materials, electrical goods, notebooks, many things."
    Some of the items banned from Gaza seem arbitrary. Basic foodstuffs such as instant coffee and coriander were barred as luxury items, while more expensive foods such as herbal tea, salmon steaks and low-fat yogurt were permitted.

    Sari Bashi, an Israeli human rights advocate whose group, Gisha, has led criticism of the blockade, called Israel's easing a "cosmetic" gesture.

    "We are pleased that juice and sesame paste are no longer considered threats to Israeli security, but Israel needs to let in raw materials necessary to allow Gaza residents to engage in dignified, productive work," she said.
    You can have your snacks, but nothing that rebuilds the infrastructure of the area.

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    God is dead. They found his carcass in 2019.. Mr Coloredshirt's Avatar
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    In Israel's defense, getting hit in the face with a steak can hurt pretty bad, while yoghurt is really nbd.

    Tea I don't get though, hopefully they aren't allowed to heat it.

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    That's so money Thirsty McDrinkerston's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coloredshirt View Post
    In Israel's defense, getting hit in the face with a steak can hurt pretty bad, while yoghurt is really nbd.

    Tea I don't get though, hopefully they aren't allowed to heat it.
    Yeah, I hear you. that coriander when blown in the eyes can cause blindness for all 3 seconds. What if the steak has A1 smothered all over it? Or some Montreal Steak Seasoning? Good lord think about that situation. Bring in the fucking tanks now.

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