Feasibility?

[MadAtVidjaGames]

First and foremost,

TL;DR: Is it in any way feasible for a growing alliance to stake a claim in nullsec without being a pet?

Pretty much just that. I'm co-directing an up-and-coming alliance currently living on the edge of lowsec toward null. I'm pretty sure we're doing everything right as far as preparing to make a push into null, even if its only to set up sov on one or two systems. We recently broke 500 members with minimal alt-bloat, our industry side is top notch, we can invent and build pretty much anything besides supercaps, and we can mass 60-80-man fleets with a little bit of notice. We've got a pretty decent handle on nullsec game mechanics, we do pretty regular roams into the nearby nullsec, however I must admit that the vast majority of us have never fought for SOV or under heavy lag.

Our two barriers are manpower and supercapitals. A recent alliance census shows that we actually have 16 people that CAN fly and fit supercarriers... but so far we've only got 2. You know how difficult it is to raise the ~20b for a fitted Mom on lowsec income? Damned difficult. We also have a Leviathan pilot and an Avatar pilot, but at this rate is going to be a LONG time before we can afford either one.

So what do you say? Does it look like we're headed in the right direction, or are we completely wasting our time? Yes, I realise we're doing this the hard way, but the alliance leads (including myself) all have the same mindset about becoming pets to a larger alliance: "No fucking way."

[Phey Onat]

This might have gone better in the srs discussion forum.

If you are having trouble raising money living in empire you might be doing it wrong. Run missions, tax said missions. Donate LP to titan funds.

Otherwise you sound on track to be able to stake a claim in NPC nullsec. You can't get sov without the backing of a bloc power.

[Iseeyouseemeseeyou]

http://reboot.gr/

Srsly tho; by stake a claim do you mean take sov or just live in nullsec? It's quite easy to live in nullsec without being the nearest entities bitch; the best example I can think of atm is Valor Empire & Outer Ring.

[Elo]

60-80 man fleets is plenty to take space :V also if you need to ask if you're ready, you aren't

[Malcore]

Non-troll post incoming -

Unless you have an actual reason to hold sov, NPC 0.0 in Venal, Curse, Delve, Fountain, etc is a much better proposition for an alliance of your size. Having your members base out of the same station that neuts/reds occupy is critical for developing the skills your individual pilots will need to become self sufficient null sec players (leading roams into 0.0 doesn't build any of these skills). If your pilots are any good or desire to be, you'll slowly push the local residents out. Even before PL had a capital fleet at all (or titans for that matter), the immediate systems around us became pretty safe after a week or so of moving in. Use your 60-80 man fleets to snipe moons of value around you (RR BS prefered). You'll either fail spectacularly, gaining experience in the process, and get pushed back to empire (unlikely because fuck camping NPC stations ever), or you'll be sucessful and establish yourself as at least a regional player.

Joining a gigantic coalition or renting is the worst thing you could do. Unless you want to farm havens all day.

[Grim]

There are 3 ways to get sov 0.0 space

1. Rent
2. Pile onto a rotting corpse as part of a coalition and be rewarded with space
3. Take space on your own (really hard)

[BrutorWarrior]

First and foremost,

TL;DR: Is it in any way feasible for a growing alliance to stake a claim in nullsec without being a pet?

Pretty much just that. I'm co-directing an up-and-coming alliance currently living on the edge of lowsec toward null. I'm pretty sure we're doing everything right as far as preparing to make a push into null, even if its only to set up sov on one or two systems. We recently broke 500 members with minimal alt-bloat, our industry side is top notch, we can invent and build pretty much anything besides supercaps, and we can mass 60-80-man fleets with a little bit of notice. We've got a pretty decent handle on nullsec game mechanics, we do pretty regular roams into the nearby nullsec, however I must admit that the vast majority of us have never fought for SOV or under heavy lag.

Our two barriers are manpower and supercapitals. A recent alliance census shows that we actually have 16 people that CAN fly and fit supercarriers... but so far we've only got 2. You know how difficult it is to raise the ~20b for a fitted Mom on lowsec income? Damned difficult. We also have a Leviathan pilot and an Avatar pilot, but at this rate is going to be a LONG time before we can afford either one.

So what do you say? Does it look like we're headed in the right direction, or are we completely wasting our time? Yes, I realise we're doing this the hard way, but the alliance leads (including myself) all have the same mindset about becoming pets to a larger alliance: "No fucking way."

In short, no.

That said, you can be treated extremely well depending who you go with. DC might treat you well if you team up with c0nvicted for chunks of Delve, and Tri(NCdot/Ev0ke) isn't that terrible either if they have any extra space and you don't mind the . DRF has great space to build up your supercapital force.

All this aside, you might be going about this the wrong way. Merge an alliance like that into a single megacorp and you'll probably get some nice offers (in which case, the places you'll be looking are somewhat different).

[MpozoY]

There are 3 ways to get sov 0.0 space

1. Rent
2. Pile onto a rotting corpse as part of a coalition and be rewarded with space
3. Take space on your own (really hard)

4. Be shobon as fuck newbies from an existing online community

Also delve/querious/half of periodbasis is wide the fuck open

In all seriousness, you state your 'industry side is top notch' because of some blueprint stuff, but particularly early on your survival will be dependent on having trusted people who can poopsock fueling, timing, and gunning towers 23/7. If you can't get a handful of people to do this without fail it doesn't matter what the other 99% of your alliance is capable of, you will die and leave

[ocrumsprug]

Getting sov solo would be very difficult while being unaffliated, though depending on how smooth tongued your diplomats anything is possible.

Parking yourself in NPC space with a group that size should be fine as long as you pick a fight you have a chance of winning.

All this aside, you might be going about this the wrong way. Merge an alliance like that into a single megacorp and you'll probably get some nice offers (in which case, the places you'll be looking are somewhat different).

Agreed. 60-80 active dudes that would X up will get a lot of interest from established alliances.

[fulis]

If you can field 80 man gangs you'll be able to wreck some shit in NPC 0.0
I'd say just go "take over" a station in GW or Syndicate. You won't get all the benefits of having sov, but you wouldn't be able to claim sov anyway, and if you live in an NPC region you're within striking distance of sov holders. NPC 0.0 can actually be a lot of fun, and I'm sure your alliance will enjoy the challenge. If you went to sov space you'd likely get sick of the blobs very quickly and it'd hurt your memberbase.

[Arrador]

I hear delve is nice this time of year.

[Checkbox Poll]

go live in curse, it's fucking awesome.

[HandofSatan [banned]]

Not feasible right now. Wait for jump bridge nerf, then the fringes of superbloc space will be vulnerable again.

[Grim]

I hear DRF if paying hugebucks to hop on the burn NC bandwagon. That might be another way in.

[Phey Onat]

montolio, we found our cash cow

[Viribus]

Not feasible right now. Wait for jump bridge nerf, then the fringes of superbloc space will be vulnerable again.

Well, for the imaginary percentage of sov-holding alliances that don't own titans, yeah.

[MpozoY]

Not feasible right now. Wait for jump bridge nerf, then the fringes of superbloc space will be vulnerable again.

This is assuming your decomposing skeleton will be able to fall upon whatever passes for a login button on the sensepad of your futurecomputer

[MadAtVidjaGames]

Just wanna say thanks for all the great feedback so far, lots of stuff I really never thought of. I kinda figured we aren't ready for SOV yet, probably won't be for a long while, but NPC null does sound really, really tempting.

[RansomList]

You should really consider WH's as an alternative to a first-time-in-0.0 experience, they offer serious advantages for a corp over NPC 0.0 and your members can get that sense of ownership without having to deal with other Alliances; although it might take a while to find the WH that suits you and isnt already occupied and locked down by others.

[Deniera]

Not all pets are equal, and not all pets have the possibility to move up in the world.

You want to be the pet that has the possibility of proving itself and becoming - not a pet.

In nullsec these days though, you'll either need allies for supercaps in the 100s.

[Vonqueesha Shenaynay]

Non-troll post incoming -

Unless you have an actual reason to hold sov, NPC 0.0 in Venal, Curse, Delve, Fountain, etc is a much better proposition for an alliance of your size. Having your members base out of the same station that neuts/reds occupy is critical for developing the skills your individual pilots will need to become self sufficient null sec players (leading roams into 0.0 doesn't build any of these skills). If your pilots are any good or desire to be, you'll slowly push the local residents out. Even before PL had a capital fleet at all (or titans for that matter), the immediate systems around us became pretty safe after a week or so of moving in. Use your 60-80 man fleets to snipe moons of value around you (RR BS prefered). You'll either fail spectacularly, gaining experience in the process, and get pushed back to empire (unlikely because fuck camping NPC stations ever), or you'll be sucessful and establish yourself as at least a regional player.

Joining a gigantic coalition or renting is the worst thing you could do. Unless you want to farm havens all day.

This. Every bit of this is spot on.

Also, Ransom's thing about wh's is spot on as well.



In regards to the pee ell post, a great example is Appetite 4 Destruction. They formed an alliance called Aggravated Assault with some other brosefs from back in the day and they've been living in curse since like... 05? They basically go pew pew into Catch / Provi / Tenerfis / etc etc and run Angel missions farming Cynabal and Machariel BPCs during slow times. They make a fuck ton of isk doing so and there's always shit to kill.

Your best bet, imo, is to either A) find a wh for sale that's a c4+ (for capital escalations) or B) move into NPC 0.0 and just grow. From a large class wh, you can do actual k-space 0.0 roams and make a fuckton running sites. And in NPC 0.0 space, you can run pirate missions and ninja rat in an alliance's space during their downtimes. If your eventual goal is sov though, NPC is your best bet. Your guys get accustomed to the logistics of living in 0.0, you can't really get ~pushed~ out, you make decent money depending which region and you'll quickly find out who can hack it and who can't. Once you get your capital / super fleet established, then you can start throwing your weight around, etc etc.

Here's a list of the most profitable NPC regions to live in based on my experience:
Best: Delve, Curse, Venal
Worst: Outer Ring, Great Wildlands, Syndicate
Meh: Fountain, Pure Blind
Stain is the wildcard. It's insanely profitable if you can manage the logistics of keeping members supplied. It's literally fucking forever away from lowsec and I believe you'll need JDC 5 with multiple mids through GW and Curse to make it there (you might even have to ninjacyno in AAA space v0v). I wouldn't advise making Stain your first attempt into 0.0 though because it will literally break you off :P

If you want to learn how to rape the fuck out of c5's with caps, hit me up and I'll tell you how to farm them.

Hope this helps.

[MadAtVidjaGames]

You should really consider WH's as an alternative to a first-time-in-0.0 experience, they offer serious advantages for a corp over NPC 0.0 and your members can get that sense of ownership without having to deal with other Alliances; although it might take a while to find the WH that suits you and isnt already occupied and locked down by others.

Yeah, we've done a few wormhole ventures. Had a C5 for a while that we moved into, was absolutely deserted because it had a C6 static. We pulled about 12 billion out of it. Was a decent cash cow until some randoms moved in and we were outnumbered like 4 to 1. We tried to fight them and failed a couple times and they just ran the place into the ground.

Edit: Vonqueesha: That is awesome. Looking like Delve is going to be the closest to where we're based out of now, definitely going to be getting stuff working to move a force out there. Thanks so much!

[Manfred Hideous]

Ask Grath how to farm the wormholes, since he's actually done it.

http://www.kugutsumen.com/showthread...ery-two-months

Null just went through some income changes. Perhaps Providence will have some space available soon. You might consider speaking to Ev0Ke or Ewoks about that. Of course the reason that might be is the Provi stations will be more of a challenge to pay for sov due to a scarcity of good moons, ore, and anoms.

[Hratli Smirks]

Edit: Vonqueesha: That is awesome. Looking like Delve is going to be the closest to where we're based out of now, definitely going to be getting stuff working to move a force out there. Thanks so much!

Malcore got it basically right and I'd second NPC Delve as well. There is really no benefit holding 0.0 sov in your situation and lots of drawbacks. If you get your shit pushed in by some bigger/older alliance (this will happen repeatedly) your stuff is safe in NPC stations and at worst you lose some moons. The nice thing about NPC Delve in particular is the logistics aren't terrible and that is going to be critical for your industrial guys to be useful (even if it is just JFing the crap they made in empire into your staging station.)


ed: I don't recommend negotiating with anyone who currently owns shitty space about entry as some sort of junior partner because there is a reason they are suddenly looking to get rid of said shitty space.

[Vonqueesha Shenaynay]

Yeah, we've done a few wormhole ventures. Had a C5 for a while that we moved into, was absolutely deserted because it had a C6 static. We pulled about 12 billion out of it. Was a decent cash cow until some randoms moved in and we were outnumbered like 4 to 1. We tried to fight them and failed a couple times and they just ran the place into the ground.

Edit: Vonqueesha: That is awesome. Looking like Delve is going to be the closest to where we're based out of now, definitely going to be getting stuff working to move a force out there. Thanks so much!

No problem broski, best of luck. Hit me up in-game on Kimerra when you get the chance.

[Securitas]

Actually vonq you can cyno from the Sagain area directly into Northern Stain with JDC IV.

[Wusti]

Mate - feel free to hit me up any time in-game. What you are looking at doing is a question almost every small alliance asks itself at some time or another.

In my case, we went from Metro Losec to Syndicate as a corp (not alliance) to blood my guys, and I cannot recommend it highly enough. I know these other dudes think WHs are the go - and they may be for ISK - but tbh ISK is the very LEAST of your concerns - it will come with the upgraded environment.

I chose to stay in NPC 0.0 for 2 years and every day was a blast. It teaches you "the old fashioned way" of holding and keeping space - by literal domination of your environment and the tenacity to keep going because ooutlasting the other guys in a patch war is the ONLY way to win. The lessons you will learn there are invaluable.

Since finally making the move away from NPC 0.0 its a somewhat different skillset - but not seriously so. Whatever you do, if you choose to align to a bloc (like us) make the right choices. AIF is an object lesson in that regard

Being a pet and how you handle that position is a mindset - not necessarily a sentence. Act and operate as independantly as possible - call on aid/assistance not at all or as little as humanly possible, and help your partners as MUCH as possible.

If you are already fielding 60-80 man gangs you will do just fine in NPC 0.0 on your own. I'm not so sure Delve NPC is the best way to go - Syndicate isnt the best for ISK but its great for PvP and has some nice little pockets to establish yourselves in and fight for. I never lived in Venal or Curse, so can't comment on those.

Just remember - Sov 0.0 is only good for a very few things: Supercap building, Space Empires, and egos (aka Player driven storyline content). If you go for it make sure its for the right reasons - and play the game.

[Malcanis]

Just remember - Sov 0.0 is only good for a very few things: Supercap building, Space Empires, and egos (aka Player driven storyline content). If you go for it make sure its for the right reasons - and play the game.

This is probably the single best bit of advice (although there is also some other very good advice). I'd expanded on what Wusti said with this: almost every aspect of sov space is a giant incentive to massive faggotry. Your alliance quickly fills up with worthless bears and spies, you have to abandon any ideas you had about a short blue list and in general you have to compromise your fun at every turn.

Unless you're really really sure that you want to be a space emperor and all your alliance are right behind you in that ambition (in which case you and your alliance are already by definition terrible faggots, so what the hell, go for it) then go for NPC 0.0 or W-space or just bulk buy some eye-patches & parrots and lock down a nice juicy bit of lo-sec with some good agents in a dead-end pocket.

[Vinata]

Really good advice has been given in this thread, most of which is much better than anything I can offer. My main suggestion is this: There is a lot of space held by IT in Delve that they are not defending and is not being sought after. I would suggest taking a few systems, without the intention to keep them. Move your stuff to NPC Delve, and then begin assaulting one or two IT station systems. You'll learn about moving your entire alliance, you'll deal with constant gankers, and you'll also learn just how frustrating and time consuming sov warfare can be. The main problem is some members of your alliance might not be willing to part with space they "took" and you'll end up stuck there until someone kicks you out - which is a massive morale kick for a starting alliance.

If Wusti is still scheming to create a new, small coalition in Delve/Fountain/PB then hit him up. At worst you own a system or two among numerous other smaller alliances, and you'll probably have around 6 months before one of them realizes it can dominate and absorb all the others.

[Vonqueesha Shenaynay]

I've lived in Syndicate and literally fucking hated it :P

Curse, Venal and Delve have just as much opportunity for pvp except you can make isk as well, which is very important with the amount of pvp your guys will be doing.

[Makia Velli]

We have first hand experience basicly on all of those options

Our corporations have lived in Wholes (not alliance in general) and they are good alternative to empire and accessible for smaller corporations/alliances too. Good places for a while but a bit boring in the long run.

We lived in Syndicate and Pure Blind just to get a hang of 0.0. Nothing spectacular happend in those places but there you learned fast that its strenght in numbers or you better be quick and skillfull.

Then we moved to Provi/Catch and rented some systems. Wars started in that region right away when we moved in and that was a good school to learn bout fleet fights, diplomacy and getting connected.

For smaller alliances it´s not easy to find your corner and get settled. Basicly i would say that get your pvp skills in order and learn to operate as a group. Get respect from neighboring alliances and keep the lines of communication open even if it´s day to day firefight with neighbors. Someday they might think that hey those dudes can really pack a punch lets work together instead of fighting or you just end up kicking their ass out and move in (or they send u back to square one).

Looking back i now get why most say renting is not a good idea if you want to be more than anomaly farmers. But sometimes it can be the opportunity that opens doors for you to show you are prepared to be more than a possible paycheck for the big powerplayer in whatever region you are in.

I´d say that wars create oportunities too. Keep your eyes on regions that are in conflict and pick your side. If you show you can take care of business amazing things might happen or you loose everything but atleast you learned a valuable lesson.. hopefully..

[Politicka]

NPC nullsec is where it's at if u can't field 500.

You really can't be driven out, as long as you're more patient than your enemies. You can grief the hell out of whoever lives where u set ur sights. Most of the alliances around where I live fold whenever u grief their ratters for more than a week. Blackops bridging of bombers is amazingly good for this as long as u have enough good pilots with cyno V and someone that can operate the bridge with JDC V.

The problem with Sov 0.0 right now is that all of the powerblocs can out number u 10:1 so fighting them is extremely difficult over Timers and Structures. The only real advantages to sov 0.0 are anomalies and ego.

In NPC 0.0 The random spawn of 10/10s, 8/10s, and 6/10s and the occasional officer from belt surfing regularly will fund your operation fairly well. Choose a region where jump logistics aren't too difficult where u have a few options otherwise u'll burn out ur JF pilots quick. Syndicate and Great Wildlands are large regions where people come and go regularly. Or u can setup shop in a Sov region with an NPC constellation like FDZ in Geminate or KFIE in Delve or X-7 in Pure Blind, these areas are almost constantly staging points for wars however. Hope it helps

[Checkbox Poll]

Here at Kugutsumen we use the word "you" not "u." Hope it helps.

[Carlton Banks]

And if one is truly civilized, one leaves even the impersonal you behind.

[Ivo THE1]

Pretty much everyone above has summed it up well. Just avoid fountain :P
Venal/Curse = Goldmines.

[ThemePending]

NPC 00 and stress pilot competence on a low-level

[Entaran]

NPC Delve.

Also remember the golden rule if you're trying to build relationships - Everyone remembers the asshole (and not in a nice way)

Don't smack after your fights and you'll get further with the local lords. If you're trying to build relationships and see what happens fight by all means but don't be a raging faggot at the end of it.

[Carlton Banks]

What Entaran is saying is suck up to delvegoons because its the only thing better than getting trolled by them

[Vonqueesha Shenaynay]

What Entaran is saying is suck up to delvegoons because its the only thing better than getting trolled by them

There are no goons.

[Entaran]

That's not so much what I was saying actually.

What I was trying to iterate was that you will be looked upon more favourably if you show respect to your enemies. Nobody minds pew pew and roams and beating eachothers towers, but if you smack like a retard and generally show disrepect for other people who are playing you will be remembered for it and it might come back to bite you sometime in the future.

Eve is a very long game and in many ways cyclical. Every few months people shuffle another 30 or so degrees around the 360 degree map in various directions. You will eventually find yourself on the "other side" one way or the other having to work with people who remember you as a sperging retard.

So really, it pays to be smug only some of the time.


I - of course - am the worst possible example of this. But I do speak from experience

[Carlton Banks]

I agree with your iteration, Entaran. I also would iterate that pew pews and cycles be managed mindfully, else your space honor will not be honored in future pew pews, after the degrees have shifted in various directions, cyclically.





Pew Pew

[MadAtVidjaGames]

Once again I feel I'm obligated to show my thanks for all the incredible feedback. I'd originally heard of kugu as "that one place all the bittervets hang out. If you're not MLG Pro Nullsec Player you'll pretty much get flamed into the ground," but I'm really glad that's not the case. I think I like it here

[MtA]

Once again I feel I'm obligated to show my thanks for all the incredible feedback. I'd originally heard of kugu as "that one place all the bittervets hang out. If you're not MLG Pro Nullsec Player you'll pretty much get flamed into the ground," but I'm really glad that's not the case. I think I like it here

Actually, what you heard is pretty much spot on.

[Petyr]

Actually, what you heard is pretty much spot on.

It's clearly not as evidenced in this thread.

[MtA]

It's clearly not as evidenced in this thread.

I think you may have misunderstood me, a touch of suspension of disbelief didn't translate too well.

It is a place where bittervets hang out, and sometimes this community can feel pretty harsh on thinner-skinned readers.

Depending on what the threads at the top are, at any given time, when you read K.com for the first time, the only logical conclusion you will draw is that almost everyone here hates eve online.

Stick around long enough, and you will realize that K.com is something of an acquired taste that you learn to enjoy, and that people here can be a great community if you post things in proper form (as evidenced in this thread).

[Faife]

I think you may have misunderstood me, a touch of suspension of disbelief didn't translate too well.

It is a place where bittervets hang out, and sometimes this community can feel pretty harsh on thinner-skinned readers.

Depending on what the threads at the top are, at any given time, when you read K.com for the first time, the only logical conclusion you will draw is that almost everyone here hates eve online.

Stick around long enough, and you will realize that K.com is something of an acquired taste that you learn to enjoy, and that people here can be a great community if you post things in proper form (as evidenced in this thread).

the pinot noir of forums.

[Wusti]

the pinot noir of forums.

Its why Aussies are usually good posters: We have some of the finest Pinot Noirs in the world

[Petyr]

Its why Aussies are usually good posters: We have some of the finest Pinot Noirs in the world

The Coonawara valley is very good, but I prefer the pacific northwest.

[Manfred Hideous]

I think you may have misunderstood me, a touch of suspension of disbelief didn't translate too well.

It is a place where bittervets hang out, and sometimes this community can feel pretty harsh on thinner-skinned readers.

Depending on what the threads at the top are, at any given time, when you read K.com for the first time, the only logical conclusion you will draw is that almost everyone here hates eve online.

Stick around long enough, and you will realize that K.com is something of an acquired taste that you learn to enjoy, and that people here can be a great community if you post things in proper form (as evidenced in this thread).

I don't know, man. I'm not thin skinned (though I'm easily trolled) but the peeps at Kugu seemed much cooler than the ones as SHC and CAOD. I lurked at both for a while and never bothered posting in SHC but new people over there seemed far more likely to get burned down than here.

I like you guys. More green bars.

/just a joke. don't rep this post

[Don Peyote]

The Coonawara valley is very good, but I prefer the pacific northwest.

Coonwara, isn't that a cross between a racial slur against blacks and an aborigine tongue for "Go Away?"

EDIT : Also, He shoots