Republicans & Democrats: The Glory of the Two Party System

[Fartman]

Rolling Stone has a liberal bias. I know this. Everyone knows this. I know that any story they publish
about "republicans" is going to be negative. When they interview a John Boehner, he could spend 59
minutes out of a 60 minute interview talking about how he helps old ladies cross the street and rescues
puppies in his spare time, and one minute saying something that paints him in a bad light. I know that
Rolling Stone is going to talk about that one minute in their article, not the other fifty nine minutes. Its
what they do. They're allowed to do that, if they want, and I'm allowed to ignore them.

Lets face it, RS hasn't been worth reading ever since HST blew his brains out anyway.

Also they regularly give five stars to Yoko Ono's solo records. LOL.

[Grim]

Then why aren't janitors paid more?

Shouldn't undesirable jobs pay more than desirable jobs? That seems logical to me. However, paying janitors and other undesirable jobs low wages is another way of keeping the poor and destitute where they belong, cleaning up our shit.

They pay a wage someone is willing to work for. Thats how a free market works. There are some countries where it is horrible broken. Just yesterday I was reading how a Regimental Commander in the Russian Army makes less money than the civilian janitor at the base he commands.

[Vinata]

Continues on about the source without addressing the actual content posted

[Fartman]

okay i'll address the actual content posted

i dont give a shit about it

[Fartman]

http://www.slate.com/id/2290509/

[Yorda]

I see a lot of talk here about welfare states being bad now. Does this mean the US is right to not socialize medicine and have more gimme programs?

I thought the previous pages were all about how much we suck for not having those same things.

Obviously there's advantages and disadvantages to both, but removing the for-profit insurance companies and hospitals would drastically lower costs (on average) but at the same time would fuck over a few lines of work. It would just be another slice at the rich (insurance companies mainly) for the general public.

What Boehner said was obviously an over generalization and simplification but it doesn't mean it's entirely inaccurate.

[Grim]

I'm waiting to see if the government shuts down. It would be funny, but I wouldnt get paid for a while

[Jirai Grepher]

I still have to go to work regardless

[T7aKubru]

They pay a wage someone is willing to work for. Thats how a free market works. There are some countries where it is horrible broken. Just yesterday I was reading how a Regimental Commander in the Russian Army makes less money than the civilian janitor at the base he commands.

There is not a free market in the United States. The U.S. have moved away from a free market. There are laws and regulations in place that forces certain professions to compete globally whilst others are free to form guilds or unions and protect themselves from competition. For example the AMA limits the number of doctors that graduate and intentionally alters the market supply of doctors.

The Paul Ryan budget is not a good thing if you care about the economy recovering faster. Let's follow in the footsteps of the Weimar Republic .

[Grim]

I still have to go to work regardless

Most of my office is civilians, so I'm not sure if they will make me go to work by myself or not. All they really told us was to do as your told, and they will tell us what to do at some later date.

[Fartman]

Harry Reid (D., Nev.) threw a flash tantrum on the Senate floor just a while ago. He slammed the House Republicans' latest effort to avoid a government shutdown -- a one-week continuing resolution that cuts spending by $12 billion but also funds the Defense Department through September 30 to ensure that military personnel are paid even if the rest of the government shuts down -- calling it a "fantasy" that will never make it past the president's desk, and accused the GOP of "procrastinating" and "trying to avoid making the tough choices.

Coming from the leader of a Democratic-controlled Senate that could not pass a budget last year, even when Democrats still controlled the House, this line of criticism borders on delirious.

"It's time for my friends in the House of Representatives to stop campaigning and start governing," Reid continued.

Meanwhile, President Obama, who has finally decided to take part in the spending negotiations after a month and a half on the sidelines, was out of town all day . . . campaigning.

[Grim]

Reid and Obama are trolling us yo.

[Yorda]

I'm waiting to see if the government shuts down. It would be funny, but I wouldnt get paid for a while

Last time this happened everyone but the government contractors got paid. They specifically past a bill (last time) that allowed the military to be paid during that time and to stopped their own pay.

[Grim]

Last time this happened everyone but the government contractors got paid. They specifically past a bill (last time) that allowed the military to be paid during that time and to stopped their own pay.

Republicans want to pass another temporary extension that would fund the military for the rest of the year, and cut 24 bil from the rest of the budget, but Obama said he would veto it.

I would like to see a government shutdown just to see what would happen, but I'm weird like that.

[Hubris [banned]]

That deriding a news story because of its origin without addressing the actual content isn't a valid argument.

fartman has a legitimate claim here, many many people do this shit constantly here. I have said its bullshit before and i get attacked for that. I guarantee i could find many times you have done the exact same thing to me in the history of great political/environmental/socioeconomic threads at k.com.

So you kinda optimize the saying "pot calling the kettle black". c/d

[Combat Scrub]

For example the AMA limits the number of doctors that graduate and intentionally alters the market supply of doctors.

WTF bullshit is this? I've been the boyfriend/spouse of a doctor since she applied to medical schools. There is no limitation to the number of doctors that graduate, and the market supply of doctors. What there is (from a close sideline view) is a movement towards jobs/positions that don't have stupid-crazy work hours and do have disgustingly high pay rates (like Dermatologists and Opthomologists). In fact, the government through the NIH has had to put in place programs to help repay medical school loans for physicians who are willing to enter into less popular specialties, or who will work in rural areas. In addition, there will be (like in most other professions in the U.S.) a fairly large drop in the number of physicians over the next 5-10 years as the baby boomers retire, and smart people don't want 30% of their salary to go to malpractice insurance and 30% to the federal tax system (leaving them a whopping 40% to pay off student loans that are often over 6 figures), since doctors entering the workforce typically are at the 25-28% tax bracket within the first year or two, and unlike 15 years ago, they don't make all the money - it goes to the insurance companies who dictate what rates and pay the doctors actually get for most of their services.

[Hubris [banned]]

Obviously there's advantages and disadvantages to both, but removing the for-profit insurance companies and hospitals would drastically lower costs (on average) but at the same time would fuck over a few lines of work. It would just be another slice at the rich (insurance companies mainly) for the general public.

What Boehner said was obviously an over generalization and simplification but it doesn't mean it's entirely inaccurate.

please give me an example of one industry in the US that was taken over by the govt that hasnt cost the US taxpayers more and more and more money each year.

Hint: there isn't one.

govt industries in all US history never become more efficient. they actually become more inefficient over time due to making their own rules and regulations creating more and red tape and bureaucracy.

for example:

"Today in America there are nearly twice as many people working for the government (22.5 million) than in all of manufacturing (11.5 million). This is an almost exact reversal of the situation in 1960, when there were 15 million workers in manufacturing and 8.7 million collecting a paycheck from the government."

"The typical farmer, for example, is today at least three times more productive than in 1950."

"One way that private companies spur productivity is by firing underperforming employees and rewarding excellence. In government employment, tenure for teachers and near lifetime employment for other civil servants shields workers from this basic system of reward and punishment. It is a system that breeds mediocrity, which is what we've gotten."

link to story
We've Become a Nation of Takers, Not Makers
More Americans work for the government than in manufacturing, farming, fishing, forestry, mining and utilities combined.

[Jed]

please give me an example of one industry in the US that was taken over by the govt that hasnt cost the US taxpayers more and more and more money each year.

Fair point, but making all essential services privately owned, and then regulating in favour of the corporations and not the people is equally as stupid.

Unfortunately with a booming industrial China you guys just can't compete on consumer goods manufacturing anymore. I wonder what proportion of those 11.5 million manufacturing jobs are in the military sector?

[Hubris [banned]]

Fair point, but making all essential services privately owned, and then regulating in favour of the corporations and not the people is equally as stupid.

Unfortunately with a booming industrial China you guys just can't compete on consumer goods manufacturing anymore. I wonder what proportion of those 11.5 million manufacturing jobs are in the military sector?

99% of all govt services started private in the US. Govt has tried to take over pretty much all of it at one time or another, and has succeeded to ruin all of them it has taken over. The worst track record in history BTW.

[Phey Onat]

So it looks like i dont have to work on monday

[Tyrael]

The government accredits med schools so it is limited in that way, I think that's what they're saying. A lot of getting into the 'right' profession is knowing where the cushy jobs are, which is still word of mouth. Same with internships and the relative weight certain university's so and so department has with the industry. If you lurk hard enough you can find the good info. Anyway all these professions make more than enough so it a silly comparison, a better comparison is all professions vs hourly wage part time no medical care BS (in the states)

[Jirai Grepher]

I'm really not happy about this at all. I might do this shitty job for pennies, but if I do it I want my goddamn pennies. not an IOU.

[Vinata]

fartman has a legitimate claim here, many many people do this shit constantly here. I have said its bullshit before and i get attacked for that. I guarantee i could find many times you have done the exact same thing to me in the history of great political/environmental/socioeconomic threads at k.com.

So you kinda optimize the saying "pot calling the kettle black". c/d

What is Fartman's legitimate claim?

[Vinata]

Its only trolling if you do it on purpose. They're just dumb.

[Yorda]

Republicans want to pass another temporary extension that would fund the military for the rest of the year, and cut 24 bil from the rest of the budget, but Obama said he would veto it.

I would like to see a government shutdown just to see what would happen, but I'm weird like that.

Have you seen all the crazy riders on that bill? That thing will never pass.

There's 28 riders that have to deal with the environment (mainly what the EPA can and cannot do, including banning them from revoking a specific license in Virgina) alone. Oh and of course a rider that prohibits any funding to do with health care reform.

[Fartman]

Have you seen all the crazy riders on that bill? That thing will never pass.

There's 28 riders that have to deal with the environment (mainly what the EPA can and cannot do, including banning them from revoking a specific license in Virgina) alone. Oh and of course a rider that prohibits any funding to do with health care reform.

elections have consequences

~deal wiz it~

What is Fartman's legitimate claim?

Why all of them of course

[Yorda]

I don't really see anything wrong with what he said. The republican bill is so insane they clearly have no intention of having an actual discussion about it. The entire Republican mantra has been to make the government as shitty as possible in order to get back in power.

The Dems complete inability to pass anything is pathetic though.

[Yorda]

The funny thing is the Dem bill cuts $1 billion more than the republican bill, but it doesn't get rid of ~evil~ things like planned parenthood so it's not good enough. Not like 30 odd billion is going to effect the US budget one bit.

[Fartman]

its not "getting rid" of planned parenthood. they can fund themselves. not everyone and everything should
receive federal funds. there's no reason for a dime of federal money to be going to them in the first place.

[Yorda]

Hmm yes, Bill Gates should just fund all of America's basic social services.

Budget crisis solved.

[xutech]

I don't want to steer or interrupt the conversation too much, but could we please see some links and quotes from yourselves please?

It would be nice if this conversation had some more sourcing and quotes, or even links to news reports etc, so we can get a better idea of where you may have gotten some of your ideas and views from.

For example, if someone sees something in the news that relates to their political views or backs up their stance on a certain topic, this might be more helpful.

You might find it adds a little weight to your positions.

Thanks

[Jed]

I don't want to steer or interrupt the conversation too much, but could we please see some links and quotes from yourselves please?

It would be nice if this conversation had some more sourcing and quotes, or even links to news reports etc, so we can get a better idea of where you may have gotten some of your ideas and views from.

For example, if someone sees something in the news that relates to their political views or backs up their stance on a certain topic, this might be more helpful.

You might find it adds a little weight to your positions.

Thanks

So if someone shares your opinion, it is more valid? That's just herd mentality..

I can understand if you're trying to get people to back up the facts they state with sources, but it doesn't sound like you're saying that.

[Grim]

I would see a gov shutdown as a good thing. You can't spend money if your not operational!!

[arwaan]

Arguing politics is like arguing religion. You're not going to get the other party convinced with arguments. It does not matter how outrageous or far from truth the beliefs are or how twisted the argumentation.
Plus fighting you is going to give them a dopamine high, just as arguing religious people would.

[LolDrake]

its not "getting rid" of planned parenthood. they can fund themselves. not everyone and everything should
receive federal funds. there's no reason for a dime of federal money to be going to them in the first place.

Do you actually have the first idea what Planned Parenthood do? Here's a little hint, it ain't all about dem abortions.

[Aurora148]

Do you actually have the first idea what Planned Parenthood do? Here's a little hint, it ain't all about dem abortions.

shut the fuck up

all those babies could have been republican voters

down with planned parenthood

[Phey Onat]

elections have consequences

~deal wiz it~

You realize that in the US you need to win at 3 elections in a row to control government, two in a row at a minimum. Dems bagged '06 and '08, Reps bagged '10.

This isn't Britain where the winning party dictates policy for the next year. You have to win multiple elections to be able to do that. :Constitution:

[LolDrake]

shut the fuck up

all those babies could have been republican voters

down with planned parenthood

Yeah, and all those women being saved from cervical cancer by Planned Parenthood screening are probably Democrats anyway.

[Hubris [banned]]

Have you seen all the crazy riders on that bill? That thing will never pass.

There's 28 riders that have to deal with the environment (mainly what the EPA can and cannot do, including banning them from revoking a specific license in Virgina) alone. Oh and of course a rider that prohibits any funding to do with health care reform.

besides the planned parenthood (i care less about either way) thing it pretty much kills off what? oh that's right the stuff the dem's pushed through by force refusing to have any input from any other party. WOW didn't see that coming back to bite them in the ass. healthcare - rammed through, EPA mandates - rammed through, etc etc......

they pushed through extreme (the democrat caucus instructed me to say that) and crazy bills they knew would never have gotten through without a super majority of one party and now they cry foul, fuck them.

[Hubris [banned]]

You realize that in the US you need to win at 3 elections in a row to control government, two in a row at a minimum. Dems bagged '06 and '08, Reps bagged '10.

This isn't Britain where the winning party dictates policy for the next year. You have to win multiple elections to be able to do that. :Constitution:

please point me in the direction for that 3 win rule...... oh wait there isn't one...... i also want a made up rule everyone in the US has to pay me a nickle a year.

[Phey Onat]

There is no specific rules stating Ye must win 2 consecutive victories. Seats rotate on 2, 4, 6 year cycles. Not enough seats are ever up in one election cycle to claim majority in both houses and the presidency. A moment of comprehension has us arrive at my conclusionary statements

[Hubris [banned]]

There is no specific rules stating Ye must win 2 consecutive victories.

i stand correct.

[arwaan]

You stand corrected. Reading comprehension ftw.

[Hubris [banned]]

You stand corrected. Reading comprehension ftw.

there was no rule so yet again i stand correct.

[Phey Onat]

I never claimed it to be a rule, you bult the man o' straw and burned it yourself. I claimed it to be a pragmatic reality.

Carry on dancing in the desert around your effigy.

[Yorda]

Yeah, and all those women being saved from cervical cancer by Planned Parenthood screening are probably Democrats anyway.

Not to mention all the kids having safe sex because the general population is too stupid to see the benefit of schools teaching it when they could teach ~abstinence~ instead.

[Yorda]

besides the planned parenthood (i care less about either way) thing it pretty much kills off what? oh that's right the stuff the dem's pushed through by force refusing to have any input from any other party. WOW didn't see that coming back to bite them in the ass. healthcare - rammed through, EPA mandates - rammed through, etc etc......

they pushed through extreme (the democrat caucus instructed me to say that) and crazy bills they knew would never have gotten through without a super majority of one party and now they cry foul, fuck them.

It's hard to get imput from a party that doesn't have any. The healthcare bill is almost word for word a copy of what the republicans have pushed for (It is the same as their counter-proposal to Clinton's proposed healcare reform, and is the same as 4 republican state's healthcare plan's). And they only had a super majority if you count liberman as a democrat (which he's become more and more right wing, and was an independent), and you completely ignore the other half of the legislative branch.

Republicans have refused any corporation, filibustered everything (including healthcare for 9/11 first responders, wtf) and then cried that they weren't being listened to when the dems just ignored them. I realize that politics is childish and full of shit but when your opponents only goal is to be to force the entire government to do as little as possible, and they're still competitive, something is dearly wrong with your government.

And I really wouldn't give a shit if this was some backwater third world country but all your stupid bullshit is being filtered into Canada and the rest of the world and it's pretty disgusting.

[arwaan]

Poll: 46 Percent of Mississippi GOP Want to Ban Interracial Marriage

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/natio...blicans/36455/

[Hubris [banned]]

It's hard to get imput from a party that doesn't have any. The healthcare bill is almost word for word a copy of what the republicans have pushed for (It is the same as their counter-proposal to Clinton's proposed healcare reform, and is the same as 4 republican state's healthcare plan's). And they only had a super majority if you count liberman as a democrat (which he's become more and more right wing, and was an independent), and you completely ignore the other half of the legislative branch.

Republicans have refused any corporation, filibustered everything (including healthcare for 9/11 first responders, wtf) and then cried that they weren't being listened to when the dems just ignored them. I realize that politics is childish and full of shit but when your opponents only goal is to be to force the entire government to do as little as possible, and they're still competitive, something is dearly wrong with your government.

And I really wouldn't give a shit if this was some backwater third world country but all your stupid bullshit is being filtered into Canada and the rest of the world and it's pretty disgusting.

you really love to drink the bathwater they are shoveling.

The state run health care systems are going away due to not being sustainable. you forgot that part.

I would love for you to try and show me a single actual republican part of the bill. (hint) the dems wouldn't allow one in (remember the close door meeting, dems only) but claim a few falsely that the repubs didn't have anything to do with.

today dems have said that repubs want to kill women, are in essence bombing civilians, etc etc. you prob believe this word for word.

i bet your a liberal type that would also conveniently forget that the dems had complete control to make a budget for 8 months total and 3 months since october 1 2010.

i have to commend you on your copy paste from the dems talking point memo right off the caucus website. You forgot to say extreme 10 times in that wall of text. the caucus will be contacting you to with a reprimand.

[Hubris [banned]]

Poll: 46 Percent of Mississippi GOP Want to Ban Interracial Marriage

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/natio...blicans/36455/

Pro Tip - 18 Democrat Senators including Al Gore Sr. voted the AGAINST Civil Rights Act of 1964. That was only passed because of republicans.

also martin Luther king was a registered republican.