Easy, you need the old, trained Cap FCs to do that.Originally Posted by lowsec loony
You wont get a new FC to call for full capital CTA, they simply dont have the guts or authority to pull that off.
Well actually atlas did that last night but they lost 2 moms and 20 normal caps to armor hacs, so i doubt they will do that again.
Why are people putting the blame on Atlas? They don't seem any worse than AAA, not to mention INIT that is showing their clear PURE roots.
[spoiler=This is a spoiler][spoiler=Another spoiler][spoiler=Guess what?]-A- is shit![/spoiler][/spoiler][/spoiler]
Its been proven enough times now i think that caps are not exactly the best armour hac counter. (although you are super welcome to try)
There are two decent armour hac counters in the game that i know of. one is well known, the other has never been used (so far) and i'm saving for the day we really need to beat hostile armour hacs.
Also this was the first time we've been able to fight a truely defensive fight with ahacs. Normally our grapes have ebeen offiensive. Being albe to setup beforehand though...glorious advantage!
wut
Isn't it funny how the mood can be ruined so quickly by just one busted condom
It seems like ATLAS/Init/AAA had some bad coordination and even worse FCing. If this keeps up then it's going to get bad for them, but right now it's just a
I'm sure they're just rusty after a bit of a break and soon back to form. Happens to everyone.
Also BH got upset at me for my comment earlier. I'm sorry, I'm sure BH posted on OSHIT forums fittings for AB armor HACs while I was off not playing EVE -- but I stole the New Directions mk1 gang directly from SoT KB with one or two minor tweaks and rolled with it.
Luckily it was rape, until 3rd and 4th time we got raped in return and learned that it's not fittings that matter and they're not invincible
edit: I take it back, I see from the rescued thread BH was arguing for dualprop zealots with gimps which are in fact, retarded :3.
edit2:
Sig tanking is p strong :V
and if you hadn't bombed me out of exiistance then i would have showed you the 3rd way of eliminating fotm hac gangs
edit- pre-emptive Fuck off
Rapier with webs and a target painter. We've never considered that possibility before.
-Sniggerdly-Pandemic Legion-
BH arguing retarded fittings, why I never
e: obviously shamis' artyabaddons and artyscorpion fleets will destroy armorhacs
I'm no expert on fleet comps, but how about an assload of ewar frigs (kitsunes and hyenas) + CR BCs? Enough damage and tracking to shoot and kill the hacs + ewar to break the guardians' lock and webs/paints to make the zealots as big as a moon. Tacklers, of course, would rip through ewar frigs pretty quickly, but it doesn't seem like there was too many of those on the field. Add to that the fact that those two ship types are easily less than the price of a hac/logi cruiser or even a BS, for that matter.
I'll agree with Czech Lion, though. You'd think after the ten thousandth time this has happened, people would know that since Dominion, getting there first is pretty important (read: Y2-ANO and all of Geminate). I suppose it sounds simpler when we look back on things, but even if you couldn't get there first, why not bridge into a deep safe and warp to the TCU? Or to whatever it was that was coming out of RF? If PL is set up on the gate, get yourself into position where you KNOW they have to go to complete their objective. But I guess everyone knows this already, right?
Works very well, used that once. (Died because our fleet only had 2 Guardians *cripes*)
<Atlas> the lag made us lose! must bring more people next time to counter
<PL> lol atlas
Oh I agree they're effective, the difficulty is keeping them alive with the rather weak armor tank on a Rapier. Loki is much more useful in the long run.
-Sniggerdly-Pandemic Legion-
How about a Huginn?
Edit: Just noticed those are shield tanked.
And its just fit nicely in drake gangs with logis , if you have number advantages just drop shitload of cheap drakes with webs and dont forget webbers + logis and hacs will poff one after another take also ecm drones and some jammers and thats it simple counter >.>
Ab Hac with minimal speed dies easy.Fighting with darkside using ab gangs will learn you this a lot (butthurt included).
Did i mention silly drake range and tank?
EDIT : Oh , tip is also in "adapt or die" ^.^
My new solution to everything is: "Just add more drakes."
I think i can live with it, after all, a drake is just a bigger caracal.
In fact, when we encountered the PL armor HAC gang first time in Geminate, before MAX2 kicked off, our FC changed our fleet composition. With our shield-BC-snipers we had about 10-15 Scorpions and since the preferred armor HACs are Zealots and the since preffered logistics are Guardians, the Scorpions should have amarr racial jammers.
Surly, we didnt win the engagements with PL, but since the Scorpions were jamming the shit out of their logistics and HACs, we managed to keep some fights equal in terms of kills/losses.
edit: didn't remember 100%, maybe we had RR-BS and not shield-BCs.
To counter the goddamn zealots, just bring Lokis and Muninns with Guardian support. You'll get decent enough dps, a fair armor buffer, while being able to choose damage type to deal, and above all; crazy EM resist. With similar numbers the zealots will have a hard fucking time breaking the Lokis and Muninns with their 95% or whatever resist to EM, while you just primary their guardians or ships not dealing EM/Therm damage (anything not amarr).
Obviously difficult to pull off as it requires peoples to train for Minmatar.
just drop an equal amount of nyxes, say 80
20 titans to DD 20 guardians
not the worst idea ive heard
That is in fact one of the effective counters that the russians found against us.
-Sniggerdly-Pandemic Legion-
Smartbombing battleships Pervs style?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlZ0EcsneSg
MDK was the first to do it, against BRUCE in syndicate.
You can get pretty damn close to the EHP buffer of a HAC with a Rapier.
Huginn has 3 lows, Rapier 4.
rapiers don't work well, you would think we have tested it B)
Or ATLAS could simply hire us to shoot people -- as a bonus I'd be happy to come rage on your TS too :3. Our rates are very reasonable!
I too would be happy to fc for atlas (at a perfectly reasonable price).
In other news we are now renting out access to TTP. Please drop me an eve mail ingame on Elendar for more information if you are interested.
Cry Havoc deployed a hac gang in support of InitiativeDot the other night, so I guess there are contracts to be had - you guys need to step up your advertising, maybe?
Fixed it for you.
I remember that - fuck I laughed and laughed. What was it? 95 kills to 1 loss? Something like that.
Why couldn't Vaga's and Scimitar's be used against the Zealot fist fleet? Have them shoot EM damage, and with the Vaga's and Scimitar's high natural resists to EM, would make downing them a lot harder. With the speed of the Minni ship's, tracking would also be an issue for the Zealots. The Amarr ships are naturally strong to explosive resists, but weakest on the Therm and EM. Also, with the Minni ships ripping around so fast, it would be hard for the opposing bombers to get a good fix on them.
Down side to this is the Vaga is a weak damage doer when compared to the DPS of a Zealot. Ahhh fuck it, call in the 20 titans to DD the 20 guardians and be done with it. Game over. That's assuming you can get AAA to get off their asses to actually deploy a fucking super capital or two to help fAtlas! AAA, let's stop being fags and deploy our SC's, my mothership is collecting rust.
We honestly just picked the largest dot on the map. I personally hope INIT loses both of those motherships in build to the ~nc superblob~ that's supposedly forming tomorrow.
If y'all had just waited a bit for us to reinforce the second tower it would have been a titan and two motherships
I guess we get a fight tomorrow, finally there is something to do
For all the crying about naps that Mistress does, he sure likes to team up with the biggest bunch a lot.
[spoiler=This is a spoiler][spoiler=Another spoiler][spoiler=Guess what?]-A- is shit![/spoiler][/spoiler][/spoiler]
risk free pvp
Well, not for Init, but that's hardly keeping us up at night.
This is the second counter that Raivi/Elendar/someone mentioned that no one has tried yet
I think people offer too complicated counter efforts. With enemy like PL, you have to understand, that you donīt have so good pilots to pull exactly what they do.
Also donīt underestimate peoples mentality, if you loose whole hacs/recon fleets while trying to test vs PL, your pilots will tunr less and lees, as they are not so hardcore and easily influenced by oh shit another helldeath mentality, fuck this. Drakes+Shield Logis for example are cheap, thats what could count.
The solution lies in using the number of pilots Atlas + co has more efficiently and using the number advantage with accepting neccessary casualties on the way. The problem is that the higher ups in Atlas donīt think strategically and concentrate on how the fuck kill PL zealot fist. Look at the map, look at your resources, at your numbers. Use the terrain, timing, superior movement and logistic possibilites, and work on multiple objectives to keep the enemy occupied and take activity back into your hands.
Atm atlas left all initiative into PL+friends, and will jsut react to their moves. Which will end up quit horribly, as long as PL can pick up targets and be in system first, Atlas will have hard time to fight them on their terms and it will require gargantuan effort to fight with like 5:1 - 10:1 odds which will exhaust whole SC within a week or two.
Loosing to PL is not matter of skill but matter of intelligence.
Don't get carried away with the cleverness of your argument. In several of the recent slaughters, disparities in skill levels are a pretty key factor.
And just which multiple objectives do you think will keep PL/the NC/Goons "occupied"? Their vital strategic station assets? Those are there to get fights and if you move on them you risk yet another 4-0 humping. Superior movement, even with jump bridges, simply doesn't apply to the fleets that are being tried, especially as so much of the regions involved are within a titan bridge of one constellation.
I'm sure the new ATLAS/-A- doctorine of Drakes with Scimis will prove to be an effective strategy, now that they finally caught on and adopted it.
It's proven to work in great numbers and is very friendly tactic to occasional mistakes, it's why we loved to use them vs. NC as well. Cheap and cheerful and who cares if you lose a fleet or two v0v.
Skill is there, but if you donīt use yours and fight on your enemy terms, despite knowing you canīt win or you get raped, or the chances are like Obama walking into your house in 5 minutes, its lack of intelligence and military strategy/tactics on your side.
So you meet this heavy weight box champ, so you go and as he is good boxer, you will go into fist fight with him? Or you go and buy better a shotgun and try your luck. That decision is matter of intelligence and if you want to win, it was your decision. Everyone has strong and weak points. Go and find them or die. PL are good, very good, but donīt tell me they are undefeatable.
Atlas atm has no clear understanding of what to do with PL. Best hope is
a) run batphone, which sounds quite occupied lately or noone picking it up
b) PL gets bored and moves elswhere
Neither of it wont make it. Neither will dying en masse in attempts that have 0 chances of building up morale. And morale is the biggest difference, not skill. Many Atlas pilots have similar lvl of skill as PL, or other alliances, but they lack good fcīs and they lack courage to take activity back into their hands.
They can hope that by ceding territory, PL+co will get bored and say fuck it. However the boredom in game is so big, that i doubt that. Atlas will have to establish perimeter that they will defend and find a way how to stop PL sooner than it will be too late and its pilots will be scared to shit to x up.
They have to change tactics, adopt strategy and motivate the players. This needs leadership, and good leaders. That their job, and it shows when times are bad not good. Evolution is the key, if you cant adapt to your enemy you will die, and be very bitter blaimg lag, others, blob. Noone blames surprisingly himself, which is the only person you can held accountable.
PS. So people dont jump one me, that i wrote Atlas soenst have so many good pilots above and now atlas has same number of skilled pilots. Good pilot = skill + morale + will + competent leader. Atlas has the SP but is down on the morale/competent leadership.
Atlas has been in active for to long (by inactive i mean that they really havent been doing anything close to successful) thus their morale is down. So now that PL has become a threat they will have a real hard time defending themselves. Actually i think they will try to just bore PL, but i can't see that working
You give too much credit to PL Czech, you've obviously never been in our fleets. Or met Yazoul.
Our fleets die like everyone else in this game -- easily.
this may be true but lets face it, most people get scared when they hear of a PL gang. Myself not included.
wut. AAA/GC/pets/INIT and now also IT.
The problem is, the Vaga/Scimi counter (if it is even a viable counter, its unproven) is not something that is realistic for an alliance like ATLAS.
They have moderately to high skilled pilots, very few will be cross-trained into every race's HACs. If you demand just Scimis and Vagas for your op, I would think you will cut out half the pilots at least. A plan that involves cutting out half your available pilots is already off to a bad start.
Ironically the type of alliance that could pull off this counter would be PL, maybe the old Tri etc.
I kind of agree with Czech Lion, fighting against PL you need to know what will piss PL off.
Which is why I dont understand why they havent just gone for the standard battlecruiser blob counter. Worked for the NC.
Yeah its not elegant, and wont get you a flawless victory. But if you start taking out a HAC for every BC lost, and do it consistently, PL pilots will start to rage.
Nothing hurts Elite pvp alliances like hitting their KD ratio and their efficeincy.
I know a lot of people will jump on that and say "My KD backbone, u mad" etc. And from an alliance leadership PoV Im sure they are right. PL leadership types are often quoted as not caring about KD and losing ships, and try to manage expectations.
But realistically a lot of people join these fotm pvp alliances for risk free pvp and massive one-sided slaughters. Its these grassroots fotm elite pvpers that are gonna get upset and cause drama.
i'm sure it is all very complex
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