Originally Posted by Seleene [BDCI]
Selene's Policy on Dev/GMs
Hehe.
Don't Ask/Don't Tell, Eve-style.
This is the only sensible policy honestly. Devs do apparently have a right to play, they should shut up about it, nothing any alliance or corp can say or do about it, and if you cheat, gtfo.
omg, dev!
http://myll.de/lebowski66,5535.html
<Aoi-chan> everyone's first vi session. ^C^C^X^X^X^XquitqQ!qdammit[esc]qwertyuiopasdfghjkl;:xwhat
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Like (s)he isn't privy to the info already!
If there wasn't strong proof that there IS a DEV in their corps then this meeting and decision wouldnt have occured.
Smoke and Mirrors anyone?
Why exactly?
I dont know if you've noticed, but in the real world, when one corporation gets in trouble for something, then other corporations take notice and take steps to prevent legal action based on whatever.
A good example of this is "careful its hot" Im sure most people remember when a MacDonalds customer spilled coffee and burnt themself. Then they sued MacDonalds on the basis that the cup was not properly labeled so as to prevent injury. Lo and behold, all sorts of companies started putting labels on their cups that said "careful its hot you fucking moron you ordered coffee"
Simply because a corp establishes a policy does not mean they are hiding something. Please dont try to claim I'm a Bob member simply because I can think for myself (because I do believe that BoB has been guilty of rampant cheating, and that high ranking members of Evol must've known that T20 was a dev, must've known something was fishy with the BPOs, especially when they were left with the corp etc..)
^^^ I agree.
I stand corrected!
this is not the solution, but attempt to keep status quo
Nobody would admit cheating. And like Seleene said no one in allaince is going to ask... And even if somebody knows/suspects he wouldn't tell. Therefore Dev misconduct would continue under the carpet.
Hear no Evil Speak no Evil See No Evil
^^^
[teaser]This particular thread is going to become really interesting.[/teaser]
I honestly dont know what you think a leader of a corporation or alliance should do. Yes if I found out about a dev cheating, or doing something "wrong" I like tothis is not the solution, but attempt to keep status quo
Nobody would admit cheating. And like Seleene said no one in allaince is going to ask... And even if somebody knows/suspects he wouldn't tell. Therefore Dev misconduct would continue under the carpet.
think I would kick that person. But if you dont know you can't do anything about it. And since Devs are supposed to keep their identities secret, what other recourse does someone in a leadership position have?
Personally I think the dev cheating scandal should probably have led to devs not playing eve, or not playing at the alliance level, or only doing so in a short term way (6 month stints or something)
Obviously if you think that Seleene knows about misconduct and is using this policy to try to avoid reprecussions that is wrong, but at best its difficult to prove, and probably lands us in the realm of tin foil hattery until we see some proof.
Oooooooh!
I am all teased!
I wasn't proposing any solution, I just said what Seleen did isn't solution to the problem, its making things worse. BUT! If u really want to stop suspected dev misconduct in ur corp, u wouldn't say to ur corpmates don't ask/don't tell. In this situation imho transparency, at least in the corp leader level would be the best action, to take. Seleen does the opposite...
Selene wouldn't make such statement, if she knew 100% that her corp clean from dev misconduct. Like proverb is saying: there is no smoke without the fire.
what WOULD you propose as a solution then? His policy seems moderatly fine to me
irrelevant
lol, no surprise
im sorry mate, but thats a cop out.
his policy sucks! -- what would you do? --- doesn't matter his policy sucks!
tell me an alliance with a good or better policy and I will drop it, but don't jsut say it's bad, and offer no constructive critisism.
how can it be MADE better?
im sure there are some small alliances out there, mine included,that would welcome a good policy that can work over different alliances.
Wrong. Why dont you read the whole thread before mouthing off?
Rather than trying to act like a good mob member, why dont you explore the possibilities of critical thinking. There are great reasons not to like BoB & co, but simply posting a policy against dev cheating doesnt mean you have devs cheating in your alliance. BTW there is smoke both before and after a fire, so yes, there is smoke without a fire. Want to trot out any more tired idioms in the hope that you wont look like such a zealot?
Thats what U think! And who r u to judge me?
Yes!!! Read and enjoy: His Policy SUCKS!!!! What would I do, if I were Selene? Remeber u asked.. First of all i will stop licking BOD's u-know-what, secondly i will get rid from retards like U, who think they can piss on the whole eve community and don't get wet when eve community pisses on them.
Make ur allaince clean at first, because it has most shit.
U tell me. Its ur allaince after all.
And ur allaince is MC or BOD whuich r known with their interest in preventing dev misconduct. LOL
I don't like to read BS twice.
because when u release a 'solution' which designed to keep status quo, to hide things under the carpet, it seems like something fishy is going on in ur corp and u don't want to deal with it on the one hand and on the other hand u want to cover ur ass, in case some info leaks out.
Oh, u look desperate. lol.
I have a certain amount of sympathy with the MC guys. I mean they are are saying "look if you have inside knowlage please dont tell us" but its kind of a crappy situation becasue some people will have inside knowlage and will act on it. But I honestly cannot think of any other solution that has a prayer of working
u 2 Brutus?I have a certain amount of sympathy with the MC guys. I mean they are are saying "look if you have inside knowlage please dont tell us" but its kind of a crappy situation becasue some people will have inside knowlage and will act on it. But I honestly cannot think of any other solution that has a prayer of working
my policy on devs and GMs: giev stuff now. pull your weight!
we know for a fact that we dont have any though
:v: [b]. . . . . . . [/b]
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That hurt me to the quicku 2 Brutus?
True mercs wouldnt be in the #1 merc contract targets space. MC would have like 365 days of BoB contracts if they didnt occupy their space
I really like MC, but not taking on BoB kinda makes them weak, they will never be truly up for the highest bidder since they serve BoB in an obscure way.
True mercs wouldnt be in the #1 merc contract targets space. MC would have like 365 days of BoB contracts if they didnt occupy their space
I really like MC, but not taking on BoB kinda makes them weak, they will never be truly up for the highest bidder since they serve BoB in an obscure way.
MC has always been bod's buttyboys.
just like outbreak are MC's buttyboys.
outbreak only sides with them since they wont get capital ships at cost anymore if they dont so they lick seleene butt.
Then hire MC. MC have 4 outposts so thats 100bil MC could lose alone. Add in POS's etc, and lets just say 110bil woth of assets minimum.True mercs wouldnt be in the #1 merc contract targets space. MC would have like 365 days of BoB contracts if they didnt occupy their space
I really like MC, but not taking on BoB kinda makes them weak, they will never be truly up for the highest bidder since they serve BoB in an obscure way.
But mercs need profit so 110bil is the risked loss, so the contract has to cover ships lost as well, perhaps, say, 90bil of ships if we include MC Capitals?
So thats 200bil to expect as a loss minimum. Now someone needs to pay up More than 200bil to make it worth their time - Or have a plan that ensures that MC does not lose there assets.
But wait, 200bil does not include the time they spend playing, so add that in at, say 3bil per MC corp per month (otherwise they would just do empire work which pays 1bil a week for mercs). Heck lets say 10bil a month maximum for all of MC, and such a engagement will take up at least 5 months so thats 50bil bil on top.
And total is 250bil. More realistically it is around 300bil contract. Trying to hire MC against bob with anything less and I think they would get laughed at.
So with bob already bitching about pet rent do you think they could afford mc?
If they are able to fly faction ships to pvp, and pimp out officer mods on their fleet ships etc like there is no tommorow. It seems to me that if you start puttin in 150mil warp scramblers on interceptors, then you are compleatly rolling in the isk.
When they start putting on t1 guns and mostly t1 mods on their ships, then they have ran out of isk.
They were doing just that twords the end of the ASCN war.
Exactly, and noone knows whether or not devs exist in their corps or alliances.
If that was the case, then thats telling you something. Currently they are overpimping their ships so they are noware near to running out of isk.
I used to think you were Mittani, but he apparantly has a degree and there is NO way you got into college...
The solution to Seleene's problem would be GM's and DEV's not being allowed to play the game.
They would be simply stright to flying stuff in Jovian Space to test mechanics and that would be pretty much it, no interaction with other players as in client level ( paying costumer ).
The way i see it, as much as a dev has good intentions, he still has the power to distort stuff ( see t20 as example ) and can even contribute to not solving situations, as laggy battles etc, all in favour of his friends, therefore not adding to prevent further situations but contributing to more problems instead.
You bastard!!!:argh:
This is ridiculous though. How could devs ever know what balance and mechanics need implementing; numbers alone dont tell them crap. How can someone not intimately involved in alliance life fully understand what is needed?
This is retarded.
Do you have any proof to say it is retarded?Explain me programing in retardese please.
I was never asked to play the games that my boss asked me to make, nor did the teams were i was involved, in fact, me and the teams i work have never ever played the games we helped to make except for the debug phases, other than that, after production stage we have never played them, and guess what, that didn't stop any of us to properly debug and give a helping hand to our playerbases.
So guess what?Shut the fuck up unless you can come up with a better response than, this is retarded, BoB and some CCP elements are the retards here, they are the one's that can't come up with better solutions to play a game without cheating, them and CCP for providing crap in industrial masses to feed some of you BoD members.
You bastard!!!:argh:
> If you're in [corp] and are a GM/Dev/ISD, STFU and keep it to yourself. No one here wants to know.
That's what everyone in either of those positions is supposed to be doing anyways, so kinda moot to say that, but oh well.
> If you're in [corp] and already know someone who is a GM/Dev/ISD, either in this alliance or another, STFU and keep it to yourself. No one here wants to know.
IMO that's wrong. If you've found out a GM/Dev/ISD, they haven't been careful enough, and they're supposed to be extra careful -- if they fail to comply, it's their loss and they should IMO be contacted as well as reported to whoever is responsible for handling their "re-assignments" (read: facial surgery and new identity ... as if anyone actually believed the character would be deleted)
> If you are a cheating BPO spawning bastard, just leave now.
Only good stance to take. Eod.
A game as complex as eve, with as many aspects that are ONLY obvious through experimentation with large numbers of people REQUIRES its developers to understand the game intimately, and the only way to do that is to play. CCP themselves have stated this, anyone with half a brain finds it obvious, and yet you deny it.
This isn't Tictactoe
Nice opinion.
And please list the game mechanics and engine features that are ONLY available to 0.0 alliance members?
Outpost Management
Super Capital Production
those are the only things that come to mind. I am sure you can list more so please feel free to add to the list.
In my opinion, the biggest "feature" to 0.0 is the alliance politics. Game developers SHOULD NOT be in 0.0 alliances because of the politics. The ability to shape the direction of the game by the developers should be done from the outside (i.e. via NPC and other events), not from within the game by developers (as is being done either consciously or subconsciously when developers play in alliances that affect 0.0 politics).
So no developers in non-noob corps, or at the most allow them in player corps that opperate only in empire high and low sec. They would only miss out on a very small part of the game engine. A part they could easily experience through the test server.
Agree 100%.
Devs have test server + ISD + BOD friends, which is more then enough ppl to assist them, in checking fleet battles and other game related stuff. IMO Devs shouldn't be on tranq at all.
What we as player community have from dev appearence on tranq?
-T20 misconduct and major bugs of the game remain unfixed and treated like in game feature...
I see your point, however as long as it doesn't require hundreds of actual players (like for example testing how much lag fleet battle causes) you don't need to even login to live server ("live server" is a term which is used to describe servers where paying customers play). Testing the limits of stuff like gang limits which are dependant on skill levels doesn't require you to do that, those dummy users don't have to actually do anything so you can use AI dummies to fill your gang and see if it works. In fact most (I'd guesstimate 90%) of testing ca be done in-house as long as the developers actually document their code. This includes writing down memos about feature discussions with the points why this certain mechanic was decided to be done like this and how it is supposed to work.
And the 10%? That's why there's Sinqularity. These things are most likely stuff which requires something that has to be done on a wide scale to really stress systems since simulating network lag, massive player movement etc. can't be simulated to full extent thanks to the variance of quality in playerbase and their computer and network hardware. Once again it's imperative that all features are thoroughly tested and rerolled back to Chaos (EVE dev server) if there's a flaw in any of them.
It's also important to realize that there's two points you want to test when you're testing software:
1) Documented features
2) Interaction between the new system and all related old systems
A good example of latter not being done can be seen in the latest devblog which has a sample of what we all know as "lag bomb" or simply that'd be freighter filled with shuttles. This is also the part where CCP currently fails miserably because this sort of feature shouldn't have never landed on Tq in any form or shape.
After the system is thought to be 99% bug free, it should be ready to be deployed on live server - NOT! After bug fixing comes what is known as authoring; rechecking every single feature of every single system for potential bugs. Good example of a feature that gets broken all the time in EVE client is the MOTD; that small box on the bottom right corner of the client startup screen. Yes, it displays MOTD most of the time but sometimes the entire box just disappears which at least hopefully isn't a feature. Anyways, after authoring (and possible other bugs) the system is ready to be deployed to Tq. Good example if this system failing completely was the deployment of Red Moon Rising.
This is also where the main point of the counter argument to what you said lies: With proper documenting and thorough testing you do not need a vast amount of people nor resources to make sure things work the way you want them to work. In fact if you get too many testers their cumulative ability to test things goes down rather fast. What this means is that for example Halo 3 multiplayer has so far been tested internally at Microsoft by only about 30 guys but they have been cycling those 30 guys so that in total they've had hundreds of testers but only 30 simultaneously at any given moment.
Who is to blame? Well, you can't blame something that doesn't exist: Project leader. CCP is a fucking LAN party, not a game company.
[i]Leaving the game? Send your stuffz to "Other Ideas", preferably with a very long contract[/i] - :v: [SIZE="4"]? ? ?[/SIZE]
Man, CCP's devs have the test server for that, it is there for a reason.
No one understands a given game better than its developer team, there is absolutely NO REASON for them to interact with paying costumers on player level basis, and even less in social engineering and player politics.
There is a reason for existing a support team, a dev team, pr, etc etc etc, CCP have skiped this in order to try and interact better with the game, yet for what i see the rumour that they are disgrunted people coming from another game and creating this only proves their lack of professionalism and understanding on how things should be organized.
In EA there was a couple of rules such as, no costumizing of your workstation, your workspace, etc, and between those rules there was the, do not interact with paying costumers, there is a support team that specifically handles those cases, capice?
What you are trying to say to me is pure social engineering, you like the fact that dev players understand the game to the point were unclear mechanics become cristal clear as soon as they are implemented, and as soon as something new is poping out you know about it before anyone else.
The fact of CCP stating that interacting with players on that level, and your BoD fanboy crew stating that it is retarded to block devs from interaction on player level is the proof that,
a) You do not know shit about software houses. ( it seems CCP doesn't either).
b) You do enjoy having an unfair advantage over other players.
c) CCP staff lacks the professionalism that it should have.
d) BoD members lack integrity and honesty as persons.
Now let me explain the last point, you guys lack those qualitys because, the point of a game is to make people have fun, relax, get themselves emerged in the game atmosfere while providing a healthy and fun environment.
You guys take this to a so-called professional level and insult other people, you bring RL shit into the game, use metagaming methods to achieve your goals and are ruining a whole game/comunity just because of your own whims .
CCP shouldn't need to run you out of the game, you guys should remove yourselves from it, and apologize to everyone for what you did.
You bastard!!!:argh:
Being a software tester myself, I can't agree more with what peon and Grey have said.
There's no necessity to involve software developers in the live software environment. That's what you have various testing conditions for.
Can't agree more with peon and Grey. Hence the reason I have cancelled all of my accounts. Sadly, I prepaid 1 year on one of them so I now have 5 more months of access to a game that I feel is quickly becoming the cesspool of the mmo community.
Actually if you cancel your account it'll get closed within a week even though you'd had a billion years worth of time on it.
[i]Leaving the game? Send your stuffz to "Other Ideas", preferably with a very long contract[/i] - :v: [SIZE="4"]? ? ?[/SIZE]
Hear ye, hear ye! This should get its own sticky.
no it won't it will stay active until your subscription period runs out.
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