Because Delve prints ISK and the south doesn't.Originally Posted by Antoshka
Because Delve prints ISK and the south doesn't.
When you crash your car it doesn't matter if you're the CEO or middle management if you can afford to replace it (and "cars" in EVE are Volkswagen, not Bentley).
It depends if you're referring to the logistical difficulties or the financial difficulties.
In terms of financial difficulty, we're in a much better position to pay for new caps than anyone in the south.
In terms of logistics, doing it right before the weekend was fucking stupid.
I thought you were throwing a money argument, so I was referring to that.
What I'm saying is that once an alliance reaches a certain threshold of ISK flow/continual and stable revenue (x), it doesn't matter anymore if you have 10x and the other guy has 5x or even just an x (which we both know, is not the case).
The car brand analogy was meant to further back my theory by pointing out that the threshold is easily reachable since the spending is low in the grand scheme of things.
EDIT: Just thought of another argument RE: BoB and Delve
BoB's years-long exploitation of Delve did not make a difference during MAX or during their cascade either (financially of course) and Goonswarm's been the ruler of Delve for a mere tenth of the time that BoB was.
Guess outspending your enemy only works during cold wars in a struggle between two fundamentally different economic models ;P
that's stupid. outspending works whenever the other party runs out of money trying to keep up
Yes, that's the very meaning of the word, and it worked like a charm during that cold war.
It is simply not the case with big, powerful alliances in EVE when it comes to dreads (or did you miss my entire post?)
A lot of people like to say that attrition doesn't mean anything any more, and there are a lot of cases where that is true. A battleship fleet getting doomsdayed is more about the loss of presence than loss of ISK. However, several campaigns, particularly BoB at the tail end of the Delve invasion and MAX, have been won by attrition, where one side loses too many expensive assets and isn't really out of money, but is afraid of throwing their expensive toys around any more. The "dreads have already been replaced" line is quite simply bullshit. The theory of suiciding insured dreads into someone else's dread fleet just to waste their money has been kicked around for quite some time for exactly this purpose.
However, as far as BoB's exploitation of Delve, there really is a lot of mystery behind that. We know how much Delve is worth now, and we can estimate how much they've lost, and the two numbers are nowhere near each other despite them repeatedly acting like they're running out of money. I've asked where all the money went, the answer has repeatedly been "mismanagement," specifically in the form of handing moon mining over to member corps and those corps fucking it up somehow.
This is of course all second-hand information, I don't have any proof that GoonSwarm is running their mining operations better or that BoB was running theirs incompetently, but it is interesting to see how GoonSwarm and PL have both been throwing money around much more blatantly than BoB was in its final days despite not being residents that long, while BoB spent its final days cutting corners to pay for POS fuel.
Perhaps BoB were literally printing money in Delve.
While I agree that the "dreads have already been replaced" line is utter crap, I must say that you're severely delusional if you think that suiciding cap fleets into the southern bloc to waste their money is gonna work just because you hold Delve.
The whole attrition wall of text and who can replace caps faster than whom is a rather moot point unless we make this a weekly ritual. The goon losses and -a-/atlas losses relative to the grand scheme of things were insignificant (dreads/carriers; not talking the titan), we can all easily replace them and we all have cap programs with which the resources that replace losses was printed up a long time ago. So unless goons plan to keep pushing and claw away at the isk reserves everyone in the south has (which by themselves I don't think is a reality), there is no real attrition threat of a protracted campaign at the moment.
In other news ra is cooking up some grand offensive against insmother, should be interesting to see what they do.
Well, I also ask "what happened to their titan blob?" and the answer to that was "most of it got sold" so I really have no idea. RMT is a very distinct possibility, except I'm a bit skeptical of it since they never experienced the kind of mass bans that ROL and one of RA's early fragments experienced when they attempted RMT on that scale.
Well, yes, I was mainly saying that getting a cap fleet killed for the sake of attrition is a sensible thing to do with proper preparation, but not on a fucking Friday.
There is more wealth in R64s in Delve and Querious than the entirety of the south combined, so the overall income rates are probably comparable. Attrition can be done against superior numbers, but it requires preparation, not impromptu "hey we're bored so let's warp to a hostile tower and die."(which by themselves I don't think is a reality)
Maybe you should check the bob forum mirror thats linked on this very forum.
The reason BOB/KENZOKU did not commit caps after the 2nd cap rapeage in delve was because they could not afford to replace the caps for a 3rd time.
Now, Im not saying the situation is same for AAA/ATLAS, but for bob the problem was too many isk sinks and too litle accountability (CEOs, directors and inactive alliance titan pilots hoarded isk).
W0t. You probably mean each alliance separately, which still fails as an argument, since they are fighting all together, not in turns.
So even if you manage to actually affect one's of those entities cap fleet at a level that they are not to bother more, there's still -A-, Atlas, R.OL, etc. And even if Delve's moongoo is best moongoo, all the south's moongoos together are even better moongoo.
I really don't know why goons started this war. While most of the people find it unlikely, boredom is the only acceptable reason and I'm buying it. And while pos warfare isn't fun, its the only way to provoke fights. What will ya do? Send roaming gangs everyday and hope they'll undock/fight? At least when you shoot those important poses you know they'll have to fight. That's the result of a set of terrible mechanics which are finally changing.
i physically facepalmed while reading this.W0t. You probably mean each alliance separately, which still fails as an argument, since they are fighting all together, not in turns.
So even if you manage to actually affect one's of those entities cap fleet at a level that they are not to bother more, there's still -A-, Atlas, R.OL, etc. And even if Delve's moongoo is best moongoo, all the south's moongoos together are even better moongoo.
I really don't know why goons started this war. While most of the people find it unlikely, boredom is the only acceptable reason and I'm buying it. And while pos warfare isn't fun, its the only way to provoke fights. What will ya do? Send roaming gangs everyday and hope they'll undock/fight? At least when you shoot those important poses you know they'll have to fight. That's the result of a set of terrible mechanics which are finally changing.
count the goon moons vs the south moons and see what happens.
No. I get this shit a lot from people who simply do not understand it. There is one thing you need to understand: Delve has about 4 regions worth of R64 moons packed into one region. Add in Querious and Period Basis and you have more Dyspro/Prom moons than the entire southern bloc. Other types of moons do not matter, Dysprosium is worth somewhere between 500 and 800 times as much as the #3 value of moon.W0t. You probably mean each alliance separately, which still fails as an argument, since they are fighting all together, not in turns.
And even if Delve's moongoo is best moongoo, all the south's moongoos together are even better moongoo.
There's been some double-talk, it was essentially started under two premises: Kill Sys-K to remove a lot of warm bodies from Stainwagon, and get fights. I say double-talk because doing pointless things for the sake of ~goodfights~ does not always coincide with succeeding in the campaign.I really don't know why goons started this war. While most of the people find it unlikely, boredom is the only acceptable reason and I'm buying it.
Who's fault is it that more people are against you than with you now? After the ASCN war, the coordinated assaults on various forces' CSAAs and the fall of LV you had a five to one number advantage and let it slip away due to typical shitty Goonswarm diplomacy. A year ago Goonswarm's group was much stronger than AAAs and things have been completely reversed due to mismanagement. I just didn't bother putting it in those words before.
Badges of Honor: Three probations, one reversed.
Majesta Empire just finished killing the last of the AMT. towers in lowsec (assisted on a couple of those by Morsus, but we did most of them). AMT also managed to take some down before we could RF them, but we still pulled in five tower kills. Unfortunately, we were met with no resistance so I have no tales of ~~good fights~~ to share. ev0ke has been conspicuously absent.
Evoke has been busy killing NC towers in 0.0 (mainly tcf and pets) and taking a station, which is why they havent bothered to defend their low end lowsec moons that has been under attack by 5 combined NC alliances.
Atleast thats my guess.
When was GoonSwarm's group stronger? Better yet, could you just elaborate on exactly what "mismanagement" you're referring to here, and where we supposedly fucked up?
The rest of the game got more powerful while Goonswarm remained at the point where fielding 30 dreads or 50 battleships was going to matter in large scale warfare. Against alliances that field 100+ caps plus the same support each it's not very relevant.
Everything that Goonswarm has tried to do diplomatically after the sov reset has basically failed, in case you didn't notice. End IRC/ED war quickly? Fail. Get UNL to move in? Fail. Use XIX in the east as an effective distraction for AAA? Fail. Most importantly they have been consistently unable to actually help any of their allies aside from KIA and PL. If you look at where Goonswarm was a year ago and where it is today its impossible to actually compliment them on anything they have done because it has all actively gotten worse.
Badges of Honor: Three probations, one reversed.
OEH, I had a response mostly written out but the computer ate it, sorry. Long story short I am right and you are wrong. Deal with it.
Badges of Honor: Three probations, one reversed.
Oh, there it is in its half completed form, better go backa nd finush it then.
Badges of Honor: Three probations, one reversed.
According to Srapheap, they saved 8 Towers of 16.
The reason evoke isn't bothering is probably they can not afford a war on 2 fronts.
I am also laughing at NC for two resaons:
1: )The NC totally failed to understand AMT is only ONE Industrial Wing of the corporation named evoke. It's only part of evokes industrial backbone. Also, the 11 other corps of the Alliance named evoke were totally unharmed.
2: )Had NC not given AMT 24 hours of preparation thanks to the Wardec, AMT might have actually been hurt and lost all towers, but the SecStatus for the NC-Carebears seemed to be more important than doing damage to an enemy.
Nah, fuck taking that effort out to rewrite stuff. Long story shorter it involved Goonswarm burning bridges for no fucking reason and pissing a lot of individually minor but important when taken as a whole people off.
Badges of Honor: Three probations, one reversed.
Hahaha, this post is almost as funny and factual as the rest of your "updates".
And how do you think these could have ended differently?
Diplomacy wasn't going to end the IRC/ED war, read the conversations and you'll quickly find that IRC/ED were completely incapable of negotiating. Force ended it REALLY quickly though.
UNL was offered space, they refused. How's this our fault? After they disbanded, several of their corps wound up joining us, ZAF, and Rebellion anyway.
I would say XIX was an effective distraction, seeing as how AAA got ADD and let BoB get camped into a station for a month and wouldn't send anything more than a HAC gang until we were right on the doorstep to Catch.
The eastern campaign fell apart for a number of reasons, but the big one was that it was a secondary operation with a major geographical jump and RA was essentially a zombie. Soon as NC/PL left, that was it, a zombie and our B-team wasn't going to stand up against AAA/Atlas's A-team.
The eastern campaign was a secondary one, it wasn't really even possible to commit large-scale resources to it. If Delve gets invaded, you will certainly be seeing much larger turnout on our part.
What has changed is that we are more reliant on our allies, but I don't think that represents a failing on our part. AAA/ROL, Stainwagon, and GBC were mutual enemies at one point which have since aligned into a single bloc. BoB got killed, but the GBC remnants melded into other parts of the bloc, mainly Atlas. Expecting us to match that alone is really unrealistic (which is kind of why I think this Esoteria campaign is a TERRIBLE idea), but you will probably see more solidarity if there is an actual campaign against Delve.
Man, that sucks! If anyone had told us we probably would have been there to help!
Pity we don't speak French.
1) Okay, that's fine.
2) Fuck yes, my cap alt's sec status still hasn't gotten back above 0.0 since that fight in Omam with PL. I would like to care and share plz kthx drive thru.
The Delve invasion was the exception to the rule because the entire alliance moved. Goonswarm is a lazy, inept, slow moving entity.
Swatting a single bee in your house is one thing, but you still don't want to stick your dick in a beehive
Not Dead, Just Sleeping
The most entertaining way to kill a beehive is to cover it in petrol and burn it.
Both of you are wrong. Where the negotiation really failed in the beginning of the ED/IRC war was when RA demanded two titans and a few hundred billion isk for blue standings after the corp theft.
...as proved by goons themselves. Well, one particular goon.
[i]Leaving the game? Send your stuffz to "Other Ideas", preferably with a very long contract[/i] - :v: [SIZE="4"]? ? ?[/SIZE]
So why do people say IT will go to Delve when Dominion hits? What's the point? They're in Syndicate, they're taking moons there, they're moving with only 1month to go...it's just weird. Fountain seems a better solution, PL have invested in the area, they've proven it's an awesome place to live if you're always in danger of being kicked out, plus once Dominion hits it'll open a 2front war, without PL things change a lot no matter what kind of numbers goons and co can pull off. If they all jump to Delve or the southeast it'll be really easy for the coordinated NC and goonpl group to outblob.
I count 53 prom/dyspro in those 3 regions to about 92 in the south. While I understand that we are talking 1 alliance to various alliances here, saying that delve has more moons than all the south is not true.
In detail : Delve/Period Basis/Querious : Dyspro (22), Prom (31)
South : Dyspro (37), Prom (55).
Yep.There's been some double-talk, it was essentially started under two premises: Kill Sys-K to remove a lot of warm bodies from Stainwagon, and get fights. I say double-talk because doing pointless things for the sake of ~goodfights~ does not always coincide with succeeding in the campaign.
This campaign is failing for GS, cause they thought that the propaganda would affect both, Sys-k and the South Block, which really didn't cause it wasn't strong enough.
Their cohesion is stronger than ever, Sys-K are pulling good participation due to being their home and AAA\Atlas are doing the heavy leafting with ROL doing great aswell.
While they probably expected that SE\Coven to do most of the help.
They failed at all of this, and now, they need to backpedal it, cause as i said alot of pages ago (at the annoucement of this invasion), that once 800 man defense blobs would show up, that GS have nothing to do in here. I mean even the MAX reply is a shitty one, cause atleast BOB had the numbers to do damage. They went pretty much par on par with the NC at the time. While goons can't pull similar numbers. Which just prove once again that despide 5000+ number, it is just to pick the #1 spot on that, nothing more, nothing less, they are just inactive griefers and an retardly huge number of carebears, which will be great for dominion anyway.
But my first part of the post says it all, cause fighting those numbers on querious or on esoteria, figure out which would be better for GS...
Well compared to PL's 2-3 (not a big investment (visually)) stations (and just 12 overal in Fountain) to 28 in Delve allone IT has invested more.. and you probably want to get back what belonged to you..
Also one regular jump to Fountain.. can do it both ways actually (whatever taking first)
Their old home?
Revenge?
Moons?
Reclaim their investment?
Close to allied support?
Fountain simply doesn't tick so many of the boxes.
It was Goonswarm's job to get RA to shut the hell up and accept the generous peace treaty that had been worked out due to Mittani and the directorship pulling a lot of strings. Alas, Red Alliance is Retard Alliance so that didn't work out too well.
Badges of Honor: Three probations, one reversed.
in less serious, the NC are running a multi-alliance only thrasher op:
screenie http://s3.directupload.net/images/091025/d2k9wlvl.jpg
i like thrashers so i'm reposting this from caod
just to add to the few I know,
gentlemen's club used to live in GW with CoW, all cozy surrounded by blues.
hydra is a great troll.
Also "army of darkness." alliance died today, no idea why but they lived around molden heath lowsec and the little dealings I had with them were lulz.
Panda supremacy are actually a bunch of chinese-only players, the GK inc alliance you are referring to is 'panda team'
I liked fighting Panda, they weren't too bad.
It's great how you can follow the fleet with Dotlan's 'jumps' maps, looks like they went to Kavelalala Expanse.
That's the strength and weakness of goonswarm's diplomacy. They let allies do whatever they want, treat them as equals and not as pets. As such they make their own horrible mistakes and their own failures, there's no way Goonswarm would of forced RA into a decision because they wouldn't be treated as pets.
As for the rest of the RSF, most of the russians are now in -a-'s giant bloc with the exception of xdeath / solar, tcf has fallen apart and is mostly innactive, and GS itself has seen large amounts of inactivity sheerly because of boring game mechanics and with BoB's death the drive in the game for most goons is done.
Sure, a few alliances died due to internal strife (kia/kos) and one or two have died to stupid diplo mistakes (iac is the only one I could think of, although they fall under "internal strife" quite a bit too) but pretending like goonswarm has failed horribly diplomatically and lost all their allies is rather asinine Alex. Goonswarm isn't going to force people to do something they don't want to.
The major issue here is that GS's basic strategy has been to work closely with groups of allies and treat them as equals instead of pets, which lead to good cohesion and an easy ability to wipe out enemies one at a time, but now -a- has copied the exact same thing and if both sides fought you'd be looking at 2k+ man fights over systems.
IAC died because they chose a leader that AAA didn't like, it wasn't a diplo mistake.stupid diplo mistakes (iac is the only one I could think of, although they fall under "internal strife" quite a bit too)
You haven't bothered to ask why that is?As for the rest of the RSF, most of the russians are now in -a-'s giant bloc with the exception of xdeath / solar,
As to the rest I disagree in certain areas but don't feel like nit picking.
Badges of Honor: Three probations, one reversed.
Not Goonswarm's diplo mistake.
Because -a- is the "elite" russian alliance and everyone wants to be on the winning side?
No more elite than XIX or Solar. They had long standing blue standings with you and it was up to you guys to keep them in the loop but you didn't, you failed.
Oh, you mean IAC dieing was a Goonswarm diplomatic mistake. Yeah, I'd probably agree with you there. Hell post max AAA probably should have been taken out since we had a pretty good idea of how loyal they were by that time. Feel free to throw in all those minor alliances that got the shit kicked out of them by AAA because they were assigned to the IAC front and had to fly through like thirty jumps of hostile, AAA dominated, space instead of being assigned to help the RSF in the deep south to the list as well. Especially because the only reason they were directed up there was because Goonswarm didn't want to deal with them and thus sent them to do their own thing pet invasion of Fountain style.
Badges of Honor: Three probations, one reversed.
Actually it's a RZR op some WI and potentialyl woot joined... And it caused RAWR to reset RZR and WI, both being thrown out of the tribute intel chan as well. lmao xD
The facts have a strong anti-A- bias.
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