BoB: When RAGOONS come, discuss..

[k]

2007-03-06, 20:09
So i am a bit worried about the tactics RAGOON used against LV in the final stages. This whole deal about them jumping in enormus amounts of peopel to crash the node and then deploying capitals and nuking the system.
The enemys we have been fighting so far have uses "convetional" methods do rage war against us and we against them. Support,bs and capital fleets being deployed even in great numbers. But still going into fleetfights when possible.
Now we see a new kind of warfare coming and thats pure numbers and crashing nodes and adding lag. With only one thing in mind to make the game unplayable for your opponent by taking the game to a level it wasent intended for (yet anyway).

Question 1: Do we have a good way to counter this? Major POS spammage? Capital traps?

Question 2: What did LV wrong in terms of tactics? Or was it all due to them having no will or manpower to fight this "blob"

Since LV are done and relocated we could be next in line or they can go for someone of our allied.

Whats your thoughts and ideas about this?

Faramir
2007-03-06, 20:43
I have just recently returned, but I think you are taking this out proportion.

The event you are labelling as a common occurance is the day the LV titan in construction was destroyed. this involved massive numbers from each side which would not have been "summoned" for the average defense of a system.

If it is a regular occurance... All we can do is bubble gates and DD the fuck out of them.
and kill whatever caps they bring. They can't take our systems without capital ships. Let's see how many dreadkills it takes before they stop using them like D2/Northern monkeys.
Alasse Cuthalion
2007-03-06, 21:44
Faith, we are BoB.

KSUDruid
2007-03-06, 22:53
Ya Know, as ballsy as a manuever as it would be... We should spend the week getting all our station systems reinforced with a handful of more towers (I know, spam ftl) but after we do that, take the entire fleet up to D2 Space this weekend and give YW/COD a jump start. Maybe make sure their capial yards go away, or start knocking every tower in fade into reinforced, just cause general chaos everywhere.

Leaving our backdoor wide open MIGHT not be best idea, but I guarentee NO ONE would be expecting it... it'd give all the residents and people on our side a gigantic morale boost (like they need one, heh) and would be a massive middle finger to the northerners, as well as probably causing some serious internal chaos amongst D2 (omg we attacked them now they're coming to kill us for real). It wouldn't be a nail in the coffin of them, or anything like that... but it'd probably smack them to the point where they might not leave their home space for the remainder of the war.

I don't see any other time better tbh, we're going to have the Goons bearing down on us within the next few weeks, and we're gonig to have to start concentrating east very soon. If we're gonna do something totally unexpected and off the wall, this smells like the right time to do it.

Astasia Orian
2007-03-07, 00:45
I was really disappointed that the YW thing took so long to get started. When D2 were fighting in Fount it might have been possible for YW to gank their capital yards. Now they're all back home and it's been announced on the forum, there's no element of surprise (if there ever was with all the German buddyness).
The only way those capital yards will go down, unless D2 really sucks, is if someone (us!) helps.

Still ambiguous about doing it, since I'd rather get entrenched in the East, but yeah.

Hegemon Rast
2007-03-07, 00:53
I have concerns about the goons and this tactic as well
the only think I can think of to stop them doing it is to stop them forming blobs if we sit on one side of a gate and let them get 1000 on the other side I would say were in trouble but if we engage them starting 10 systems before where ever there going and keep it a running fight where they cant form there mega blobs I think we will easily win putting titans in a system dding and then jumping back a system for next titan to dd etc so they cant form large blobs all in one spot if we keep harrassing them with support the whole time as well I think they cannot form that cohissive blob LVs mistake was to wait for them there is a picture of them on the other side of the lv gate getting ready to jump that is what we have to not let happen if lv had forces there disrupting them forming up it would not have happend
is just my thoughts on it

ProphetGuru
2007-03-07, 04:05
Keep in mind the circumstances of the last time they used this tactic on lv. If you recall, the database dec Valar crashed the node on purpose trying to fix it. LV had a beautiful camp set up. When Valar crashed the system, the system next door was not crashed, and it let the goons in thru the front door. As the lv guys came back to their camp, many of them got pulled into their own bubbles and raped before they loaded by the newly arrived goon fleet.

While I'm not saying it couldn't happen again, the circumstances were rather specific.
cleisthenes2
2007-03-07, 07:42
It was not only goons, CA, TCF, KOS jesus every fucking bandwagooner...so this situation happening again is unlikley. Do not worry to much about the Goons, just know what we can expect from them

[dark green]

Edit: Wow, first!

I may not like BOB much, but I have to admit they do appear to be thinking clearly and figuring out tactics. It would be nice to see similar thinking on the Coalition side.

Had other people heard about a CCP person accidentally crashing the LV system? I hadn't heard about that.

I'm actually a little surprised to hear BOB discussing this in straight terms of using a dd and getting a chance to fight the blob. I think most of us might have guessed they would be mapping out system/server relationships and figuring out how to get the enemy blob stuck in a crashed system 10 jumps out...

[Alex Clomsaver]

Wait, is that stuff about Valor crashing the system on purpose public knowledge or not? Also its nice to know their tactics on the whole YouWhat thing and wonder whether we will see a D2 version of JVIV.

[redsaber]

it is public knowledge the database guy caused a node crash. he talked in local BEFORE he did it. he apologized about having to do it as well i think.

mind you it was the (sixth?) crash so it had no bearing on the fight tbh.

he was doing his best to keep the server UP and not crashing. after the deliberate node-crash the system became super laggy, but it did not crash anymore

[arfarf]

it is public knowledge the database guy caused a node crash. he talked in local BEFORE he did it. he apologized about having to do it as well i think.

mind you it was the (sixth?) crash so it had no bearing on the fight tbh.

he was doing his best to keep the server UP and not crashing. after the deliberate node-crash the system became super laggy, but it did not crash anymore

No the first node crash was actually caused by him resetting or crashing the database. It was said in local that he was going to thats when the entire 1000 man fleet jumped in, it then crashed repeatedly from then on until the pos died and LV said fuck it and went to bed.

[bringdapain]

JV1V simply proved that CCP fuckups can help both sides.

[Jags]

You didnt know about Valor intentionally taking down the node ? Thought that was common knowledge.

Crashed due to numbers the first time , then Valor took it down to put it on its own node , then took it down at least a further 3 times.

OMG DEVHAX ON GOONS SIDE

Thats a joke btw

[peon]

You didnt know about Valor intentionally taking down the node ? Thought that was common knowledge.

Crashed due to numbers the first time , then Valor took it down to put it on its own node , then took it down at least a further 3 times.

OMG DEVHAX ON GOONS SIDE

Thats a joke btw

Valar > "Hmmz, those darn Goonies are attacking my friends!"
*crashes node a few times*
LV populace > "Hey wtf m8, we want to login to our home system!?"
Valar > "Oh sry, here lemme put it back up."
*turns the server on*
Valar > "OSHT IT'S FULL OF BEES, ANGRY BEES!!"
*crashes the node*
LV populace > "JUMP QUEUES BAAAAHHH!!"
Valar > "OHFUCK OHFUCK OHFUCK OHFUCK OHFUCK OHFUCK OHFUCK OHFUCK OHFUCK OHFUCK OHFUCK"
*crashes the node a few times in panic*
Oveur > "Valar wtf you're doin'?"
Valar > "DRIBBLE WAAH WAAH FUCKZ0RZ!!"
Oveur > "Stop that and go fix the db." *kicks Valar's butt*
LV > "We're fucked "
Node > "bwahaha Oveur stopped me from restarting"
RedSwarm > "pew pew pewski, boom boom POSki with titanski"


...

[Sir T]

LOL

[DEVstructive Influence]

[Raef Ruoy]

Valar > "Hmmz, those darn Goonies are attacking my friends!"
*crashes node a few times*
LV populace > "Hey wtf m8, we want to login to our home system!?"
Valar > "Oh sry, here lemme put it back up."
*turns the server on*
Valar > "OSHT IT'S FULL OF BEES, ANGRY BEES!!"
*crashes the node*
LV populace > "JUMP QUEUES BAAAAHHH!!"
Valar > "OHFUCK OHFUCK OHFUCK OHFUCK OHFUCK OHFUCK OHFUCK OHFUCK OHFUCK OHFUCK OHFUCK"
*crashes the node a few times in panic*
Oveur > "Valar wtf you're doin'?"
Valar > "DRIBBLE WAAH WAAH FUCKZ0RZ!!"
Oveur > "Stop that and go fix the db." *kicks Valar's butt*
LV > "We're fucked "
Node > "bwahaha Oveur stopped me from restarting"
RedSwarm > "pew pew pewski, boom boom POSki with titanski"


...

LOL
No offense Jags but that was funny shit.

And I imagine if Valar was an LV friend then he isn't now. (thats a joke as well )

[Alex Clomsaver]

You didnt know about Valor intentionally taking down the node ? Thought that was common knowledge.

I don't actually play Eve so I have a lack of knowledge on certain things. (the GM's names, what is discussed ingame, actual gameplay, etc.)

[Jags]

Funny post No offence taken

Will never trust Valar again though , his actions fucked up wot couldve been an epic fight

[BLACK BOX]

Funny post No offence taken

Will never trust Valar again though , his actions fucked up wot couldve been an epic fight

there was no way that fght could have been anything with or without valar's actions. there was nothing else he could do in the situation anyways.

[bringdapain]

there was no way that fght could have been anything with or without valar's actions. there was nothing else he could do in the situation anyways.

The numbers on both sides were similar to F-T. It could have been like F-T had the servers held.

[Alex Clomsaver]

The numbers on both sides were similar to F-T. It could have been like F-T had the servers held.

Actually, the fight was quite a bit larger than F-T and the fleet set ups and tactics were differnet but whatever.

[Jags]

Different battle different tactics that had to contend with 300+ logged off in the target system. Logon traps 4tL

Anyway that is all in the past , CCP have a helluva lot of work to do to even make the game playable for 30v30 fights. Lag is just getting beyond a joke at the moment and I have no idea why it has got so bad in recent weeks.

Are we at the limit of what adding more hardware can do ? I think we must be pretty close to that day where CCP have to look at sharding as a distinct possibility

[Liquid Vision]

Different battle different tactics that had to contend with 300+ logged off in the target system. Logon traps 4tL

Anyway that is all in the past , CCP have a helluva lot of work to do to even make the game playable for 30v30 fights. Lag is just getting beyond a joke at the moment and I have no idea why it has got so bad in recent weeks.

Are we at the limit of what adding more hardware can do ? I think we must be pretty close to that day where CCP have to look at sharding as a distinct possibility

Seriously. . .if you're going to fucking whine about people logging off in system with the current game mechanics revolving around high numbers + 1 entry into system + spamming of large bubbles you need to go play something else or get a sex change to complete your transformation to the female gender.

Log in traps at gates and things like that when there are 10-30 people or something. . .ok, I can understand being pissed about. However, being mad that people log off in your home system so they can fight there later? Beyond lame. If we're going to cry about that then let's just make it where nobody can log off anywhere except in a station. . .and just to make sure let's throw in that if you do log out in space your ship violently decompresses and you end up podded back to your clone.

LV whines SO much about JV1V but they were the main problem. They tossed down so many bubbles on the gate in system that even when there were only 200 or so people logged in it took around 5+ minutes to just load the grid at gate w/ no other pilots there. The lag was going to be atrocious anyway, but if they'd only left say. . .3 larges, the job still would have gotten done and people might have actually gotten into the system for LV to shoot.

Yet, I totally agree w/ you on the lag and CCP being fucking retarded in how they've developed their game. It just amazes me how many people when things go balls up in EVE will point their finger at the "other guys" instead of the real problem. . .CCP. What fucking group of idiots bases their game around static structures that can only be destroyed after X amount of time which sets up these insanely laggy pitched battles involving capital ships? Not to mention their complete lack of consistency when dealing w/ issues surrounding these pitched battles of BS. I guarantee you the next time there's a suspected Titan in production at a capyard and folks get together thousands of people to go pop it, CCP will handle the situation differently than F-T and differently than JV1V. And whomever gets screwed the next time around will be wondering why the precedent got changed yet again even tho we've been through this shit countless times already. I mean, I guess I understand that you need to have most of your game revolve around timesinks (POS upkeep), but this shit is just beyond absurd.

[bringdapain]

Seriously. . .if you're going to fucking whine about people logging off in system with the current game mechanics revolving around high numbers + 1 entry into system + spamming of large bubbles you need to go play something else or get a sex change to complete your transformation to the female gender.

Log in traps at gates and things like that when there are 10-30 people or something. . .ok, I can understand being pissed about. However, being mad that people log off in your home system so they can fight there later? Beyond lame. If we're going to cry about that then let's just make it where nobody can log off anywhere except in a station. . .and just to make sure let's throw in that if you do log out in space your ship violently decompresses and you end up podded back to your clone.

LV whines SO much about JV1V but they were the main problem. They tossed down so many bubbles on the gate in system that even when there were only 200 or so people logged in it took around 5+ minutes to just load the grid at gate w/ no other pilots there. The lag was going to be atrocious anyway, but if they'd only left say. . .3 larges, the job still would have gotten done and people might have actually gotten into the system for LV to shoot.

Yet, I totally agree w/ you on the lag and CCP being fucking retarded in how they've developed their game. It just amazes me how many people when things go balls up in EVE will point their finger at the "other guys" instead of the real problem. . .CCP. What fucking group of idiots bases their game around static structures that can only be destroyed after X amount of time which sets up these insanely laggy pitched battles involving capital ships? Not to mention their complete lack of consistency when dealing w/ issues surrounding these pitched battles of BS. I guarantee you the next time there's a suspected Titan in production at a capyard and folks get together thousands of people to go pop it, CCP will handle the situation differently than F-T and differently than JV1V. And whomever gets screwed the next time around will be wondering why the precedent got changed yet again even tho we've been through this shit countless times already. I mean, I guess I understand that you need to have most of your game revolve around timesinks (POS upkeep), but this shit is just beyond absurd.

A deployed bubble causes no more LATENCY based lag than a can, wreck or abandoned drone and MUCH less than a ship. 12 bubbles wasnt the cause of the crashes. Valar, Mechanics, noob-ship jumpins and mass-logon were.

[Grey]

Seriously. . .if you're going to fucking whine about people logging off in system with the current game mechanics revolving around high numbers + 1 entry into system + spamming of large bubbles you need to go play something else or get a sex change to complete your transformation to the female gender.

Log in traps at gates and things like that when there are 10-30 people or something. . .ok, I can understand being pissed about. However, being mad that people log off in your home system so they can fight there later? Beyond lame. If we're going to cry about that then let's just make it where nobody can log off anywhere except in a station. . .and just to make sure let's throw in that if you do log out in space your ship violently decompresses and you end up podded back to your clone.

LV whines SO much about JV1V but they were the main problem. They tossed down so many bubbles on the gate in system that even when there were only 200 or so people logged in it took around 5+ minutes to just load the grid at gate w/ no other pilots there. The lag was going to be atrocious anyway, but if they'd only left say. . .3 larges, the job still would have gotten done and people might have actually gotten into the system for LV to shoot.

Yet, I totally agree w/ you on the lag and CCP being fucking retarded in how they've developed their game. It just amazes me how many people when things go balls up in EVE will point their finger at the "other guys" instead of the real problem. . .CCP. What fucking group of idiots bases their game around static structures that can only be destroyed after X amount of time which sets up these insanely laggy pitched battles involving capital ships? Not to mention their complete lack of consistency when dealing w/ issues surrounding these pitched battles of BS. I guarantee you the next time there's a suspected Titan in production at a capyard and folks get together thousands of people to go pop it, CCP will handle the situation differently than F-T and differently than JV1V. And whomever gets screwed the next time around will be wondering why the precedent got changed yet again even tho we've been through this shit countless times already. I mean, I guess I understand that you need to have most of your game revolve around timesinks (POS upkeep), but this shit is just beyond absurd.

Go and play WOW, you will find no difference in the game method programing than in EVE.
There is no way to go around lag regarding static structures, trees, ships, houses or stations.

Problem is that hardware can only coupe with as much players and game triggers as its specs allow, adding more hardware isn't the solution, its like Intel raising the speed of processors without optimizing the instruction set, eventually they had to change their mo.

In EVE what is needed is a recoding and a serious one because this way you will even have lag in a 2vs2 fight in the future.

[Vinata]

[QUOTE=Grey;7308]Go and play WOW, you will find no difference in the game method programing than in EVE.
There is no way to go around lag regarding static structures, trees, ships, houses or stations.QUOTE]

All buildings, NPCs, trees, bushes, etc in WoW are static, as you jusy said. There is no need for the server to keep track of where they are, as it is a given. They can't be moved in any way. The client doesn't experience any additional lag because that entire map has already been established in the computer's HDD.

Bubbles on a gate a good deal different. The servers keep a track of them on a X, Y, Z axis, and have to take into account...you know what, screw it. I'll put it this way, so it'll be easier for you: A can in EVE causes more server side processing (and therefore lag) than every single tree in that pansy ass Night Elf starting zone combined. You put up 10 of those things (when 1 is all you need) and you're causing lag. A guy from RA got warned that he'd be banned if the cans outside his POS (most of which weren't anchored by him) weren't removed in 24 hours. If they're willing to threaten to ban a guy because of cans outside a POS, then bubbles around a gate isn't too farfetched.

[Hork]

A deployed bubble causes no more LATENCY based lag than a can, wreck or abandoned drone and MUCH less than a ship. 12 bubbles wasnt the cause of the crashes. Valar, Mechanics, noob-ship jumpins and mass-logon were.

The bubbles weren't the problem, it was the 1000+ fighters and drones.

[eve3007]

The bubbles weren't the problem, it was the 1000+ fighters and drones.

No - The cause was people playing eve.

Every player that logged in, every item they had, every show info they did, every n00bship that jumped in, everything all contributed.

Jumpins currently appear to cause the biggist amount of lag currently - but its not the people jumping in at fault. using drones causes lag - but its not drone users fault

It is the fault of the servers - They cannot handle massive battles. The fault is not the players but it is the hardware.

[Vinata]

Actually its the coding. The developers also had a little logic problems here.

"Drones cause too much lag. What should we do?"
"Limit them to 5 per player."
"Good idea!"

"We should make a super carrier."
"How many drones would it be able to use?"
"20 sounds like a good number."

That's not the best logic when it comes to getting rid of lag.

[Grey]

[QUOTE=DanaScullyFBI;7625]

Go and play WOW, you will find no difference in the game method programing than in EVE.
There is no way to go around lag regarding static structures, trees, ships, houses or stations.QUOTE]

All buildings, NPCs, trees, bushes, etc in WoW are static, as you jusy said. There is no need for the server to keep track of where they are, as it is a given. They can't be moved in any way. The client doesn't experience any additional lag because that entire map has already been established in the computer's HDD.

Bubbles on a gate a good deal different. The servers keep a track of them on a X, Y, Z axis, and have to take into account...you know what, screw it. I'll put it this way, so it'll be easier for you: A can in EVE causes more server side processing (and therefore lag) than every single tree in that pansy ass Night Elf starting zone combined. You put up 10 of those things (when 1 is all you need) and you're causing lag. A guy from RA got warned that he'd be banned if the cans outside his POS (most of which weren't anchored by him) weren't removed in 24 hours. If they're willing to threaten to ban a guy because of cans outside a POS, then bubbles around a gate isn't too farfetched.

And what different is a can from a ship?
From a bubble i can see the difference, but not from the most static objects in the game grid.

[Hork]

No - The cause was people playing eve.

Every player that logged in, every item they had, every show info they did, every n00bship that jumped in, everything all contributed.

Jumpins currently appear to cause the biggist amount of lag currently - but its not the people jumping in at fault. using drones causes lag - but its not drone users fault

It is the fault of the servers - They cannot handle massive battles. The fault is not the players but it is the hardware.

Each player needed to have the information about each of those 1000+ drones. An exponential increase caused both by the players, and by the drones and fighters. Even after the jumpins were done, the lag was about as bad until the drones floating in space were dealt with.

[bringdapain]

Each player needed to have the information about each of those 1000+ drones. An exponential increase caused both by the players, and by the drones and fighters. Even after the jumpins were done, the lag was about as bad until the drones floating in space were dealt with.

Were you there?

We didnt have drones out, only fighters. Admittedly there were a LOT of fighters, but still.

[peon]

Were you there?

We didnt have drones out, only fighters. Admittedly there were a LOT of fighters, but still.

Fighters are drones. All that backstory shit about them being piloted miniships don't change the fact what they technically are.