Titan Rebalance 2012 - "Move the goalposts closer, I can't score"

[pinoyzzz]

Back in 09 before Dominion, IT and NC used 100+ unsieged dreads all the time on PL dyspro moons -- mostly because they were too scared to siege. Dreads haven't changed much since, but their role has been totally co-opted by supercarriers and titans.

Boosting dreads isn't the answer, at least without new anti-capital AoE mechanics or sov redone. If you do make unsieged dreads viable with current mechanics, then you'll just have the next NC/IT blob with 500 unsieged dreads. I'd rather CCP just remove titans and supercarriers from the game.

[John Smith]

Unsieged dreads and carrier support fleet was used by the coalition against Bob/kenzoku in delve 2.

[Agathor]

I dont know why CCP is always nerfing shit. Sometimes its better to boost the counter.

[Teh Ashen]

Unsieged dreads and carrier support fleet was used by the coalition against Bob/kenzoku in delve 2.

I just... I just... not my dread....

[Anon]

I might be dread biased and riding high on recent success... BUT:

Someone who can muster a fleet of 300 dreads (most high member alliances who actually fight) seriously needs to look into them for proper fleet setups.

We, and others, use sieged tracking Moroses to take out battleships. In our sisi tests we are able to swing the tide of any pantheon and/or triage fleet setup with them. They simply kill of the precious Bhaalgorns etc. in a volley, and this is small numbers we're talking (<10 Moroses). I am confident that the same can be utilized to kill of Maelstorm fleets, mwd'ing bc's etc.

Proper burst tank fits (40k dps 90 sec tank Moros with 15k dps damage) could be used en masse to fight of a 40-50 supercap fleet. Yes its 6 to 1 number wise, but you're doing roughly 10 to 1 dps with similar raw tank potential (fleet wide), and with dreads it's a lot easier to get the required ships and replentish lost ones, they can be insured and are easier for your members to train for. If your first engagement means you're down 300 dreads but the enemy only lost 20 supercaps, next week you're back fighting with 300 new ones, but now the super blob is only 20-30 strong.

Just in case you don't get it yet. 300 Moroses will two-volley a supercap, that means one down every 10 seconds - reps or no reps.

Ever since CVA derped their 200+ dread fleet into -A- everyone has been scared of running dread fleets. That loss was down to the FC making a cockup, not the ships, and since then they've actually gotten a considerable buff.

tl;dr if I was in charge of CFC theorycrafting I'd start a dread doctrine instead of crying about titans being OP.

[Agathor]

Lets not forget that dreads jump into a battle and say "I have webbed and warp scrambled myself for 10 minutes haha, whatsa gonna do?"

edit:siege is 5 min these days I think meh

[Anon]

Lets not forget that dreads jump into a battle and say "I have webbed and warp scrambled myself for 10 minutes haha, whatsa gonna do?"

Well for one Siege is 5 minutes now...

[Grath]

Grath, you've made the argument that supers should not be vulnerable to subcaps before, but it makes no sense outside of a further "I win" button for super pilots and heavy coalitions.

Not really if you completely remove the supercaps ability to harm sub caps at the same time.


Then you can both jump in and stare at each other looking mean as shit all night and not actually do anything.



The reality is though, I'm only suggesting it because theres so many buttmad motherfuckers about the fact that supers can hurt subcaps at all. They want any ability to harm subs removed from the Titans and SC's, but when you ask if the same in reverse would be legitimate in that situation and suddenly its not acceptable (im not saying you did this, im saying there are people who do)

[gala gidas]

Manny, I see your concern but the problem you have is that of course CCP will favour the larger group in the long run. Whether through subs or through the proxy of plexes, every player pays them money to play. You're asking them to provide tools with which less subscribers can make more subscribers unhappy.

Goons go out there and sell the game of Eve Online to their friends on the SA boards. Since my last recruitment post we have gone from 2,500 to 3,500 waffe members, with old people returning as we tell them how the game is on the right path, and new ones being drawn in by the enthusiastic commentary of people posting in the thread in the downtimes between bouts of pointing and laughing at Ordo Garr. That's already the equivalent of 1/3 of all titan pilots cancelling their subs and walking away by itself. Allowing for churn, it's probably just over a hundred grand a year from extra subs (of which I see exactly zip )

According to Turbefield's stats a far smaller 10% increase across the CFC alone would replace the subscriptions of every titan pilot, both subbed and unsubbed, should they walk away and unsub forever. According to the figures cited by Jogyn then that same 10% increase across the CFC would pay for the cancelled subs of every single member of PL and NCdot put together. Woops!

The days when Eve was a hobby or a social experiment of its devs, or that they would change the game consciously to favour their playstyle or that of their friends, are gone. They want the person with 3 million skillpoints to be able to be hooked on the nullsec Great Game that keeps people playing for years, to get dragged into the storyline. And they know that that is virtually impossible when those players discover that their ship matters zilch as soon as 40 titans cyno in with a bunch of supercarriers to rep them.

Your alliance, NcDot and others don't want newbies, and that's cool. But it means you're not speaking to those two-week-old new players and you're not exposed to the Naked Lunch moment when they work out that they can do everything right, orbit the primary at the right range, stay out of smartbomb range on the primary, watch for yellow-boxing, broadcast for reps as soon as a lock is applied, and yet still absolutely inevitably die as soon as one single person just presses one button.

But we do talk to those people and we bring in a tidal flood of them to enliven the game and provide content and fund the development of new features and CCP are finally working out that if four or five hundred dudes, most of whom will in any case be burned out within 15 months, want to bleat about large "blobs" of paying customers having more fun than them then it's still going to be sayonara titans in the long run.

This is propably the best post i ve seen in this troll forums

[Malcanis]

Pantheon fleets with unsieged dreads for damage works quite well againt Maelstrom fleets with limited numbers (less than 150ish Maelstroms). At least for us, support ships aren't much of an option because they'll get instantly alphad, but a combination of remote repping carriers and out of siege dreads can still tank a lot of damage while still being able to kill the occational Maelstrom/Scorpion.

Up until recently dreads would be dropped quite frequently around Syndicate and used to kill subcaps or gank carriers, being able to actually kill battlecruisers and batleships with transversal without the need of Vindicators for webbing was a nice bonus. RnK will quite often drop dreads to kill caps and do damage to heavily webbed Battleships, but being able to do damage while out of siege can be very important when the majority of your fleets damage comes from those dreads. The aditional tracking you get while out of siege can make a huge difference, as a Moros out of siege will still do 1500dps.

So basicly nerfing their out-of-siege tracking won't change much, but it does slightly decrease their use in smaller scale engagements.

Interesting, thanks for giving a straight answer to a simple question.

[Malcanis]

Easy John, you're dangerously close to making malcanis look dumber.

Given that he managed to do something on the first try that you failed to do in half a dozen attempts, I don't think I'm the one that's in danger here.

[Kazanir]

Among the problems in that wall of text are, structure shooting is stupid, CCP knows structure shooting is stupid, optimizing a ship class to shoot structures while dying horribly to any resistance is stupid. You can already one-cycle a tower, hub or station with a fairly small dreadfleet, buffing that is pointless. The coming tech nerf should greatly reduce the need to shoot POS, and other structures are far better shot with supercarriers/titans or subcaps already, none of which have the vulnerabilities of a sieged dreadfleet.

The appropriate role for dreads is and always has been capital killing, but this was usurped with the super changes. There is no need to have multiple capital classes with a DPS delivery role, and there is no way you will see sizable dreadfleets in a situation where hostile DPS-dealing supers can drop, except as suiciders, or bait.

Yeah, this is why the "design" that Greyscale has been posting about, such as it is, is pretty busted. Who is gonna want to use carriers and dreads when you'll instantly lose X of them to a supercarrier/titan counterdrop? Hopefully the newly-reduced ability of titans to clear tackle off of themselves will make supercaps slightly less willing to be like, "Do you have a cyno?" But I guess we'll see.

The better solution to this would be to give supercapitals some sweet combat and noncombat roles that don't stack well. I say this fully aware that this idea wasn't even on the table for this round of changes, though. Stuff like clone vat bays that actually work, grid-wide electronic warfare effects, different fleet/wing bonuses that only an on-grid supercap can provide, temporary pos shields for friendlies to hide in...there are lots of ideas. Stuff so supercap pilots can feel and be useful, but without a blob of 80 or 200 of them being the overpowering determinant in who wins every war in EVE.

I am, at least, encouraged by Greyscale's statement that CCP wants the question, [Should I get into a supercarrier or titan?] to have strategic answers which aren't always [Yes]. That's how every other ship in EVE works and it is about damn time that supercapitals start working that way too. So that's something.

[gala gidas]

How about this...
Make a limit in fleet numbers(80-100) by only allowing them if a titan is in it.

Dont allow full fleets to exist without having a titan as fleet commander,a supercarrier as wing commander,lose the ability to broadcast or even make the server drop the fleet if the titan-supercarrier isnt in same system with the rest of the fleet.Server drops the gang if titan is closer than x distance from POS shields.Drop cyno jammers when a Titan is in a system.Perhaps even remove the rf mode of a POS when a super is inside shields.Remove the ability to bridge stuff when inside POS shields(distance similar with POS cyno beacons or bridges).Remove the ability to deplow FBs or activate dd's if not a certain distance from a POS.Stack penalty the max member of a gang when more than command positions are covered by supercaps

Sorry for my english but this idea looks okish.
Blob side: will have to field titans if they want to have 1000 peeps in a system.If they split their gangs just bellow the server limit they ll have to accept that coordination,logistic ships will be splitted in more groups making them less effective.They will still be able to maintain their firepower through out of game comms like TS,vent or whatever they use but they will have more risk blobbing up.
supercap heavy groups:fleet movements will be hard since you want be able to safe up in a POS since your gang will automatically drops once you safe up in it.Stacking penalty in supercap number will make it harder to move with multiple cynos needing to be used.DPS will still be the same but logistic support will be harder.

Obviously there are many flaws in my idea,but i am thinking how you can deblob a blob(or actually make it commit supercaps),how you can make blobs move alot slower(bridging outside of shields wont be an easy task for a CFC fleet with all the trust they have for their members).For the supercap side there will be lots of opportunities to play with supers,but more tricky to move them around or protect them when the opposing side hits the counterdrop button.

Overall i dont think there is going to be a perfect fix for this game,as long as people are not willing to commit for their reasons.Still i want fights and yes i would like to keep up the posibility for smaller entities or group of players to be able to counter the blob using more expensive toys but at the same time i would like to see the blob side to be forced to risk something more than 500 drakes and 300 maels in a fight.
I would like to see the blob with their 1000+ fleets carrying not only the benefits of a blob but all the disadvantages too(spies,difficulty in movement etc).

I havent really played up North the last 2 weeks,but the war up there instead of beeing the best part of EVE became the most boring TZ game.

[MpozoY]

Not really if you completely remove the supercaps ability to harm sub caps at the same time.

Then you can both jump in and stare at each other looking mean as shit all night and not actually do anything.

The reality is though, I'm only suggesting it because theres so many buttmad motherfuckers about the fact that supers can hurt subcaps at all. They want any ability to harm subs removed from the Titans and SC's, but when you ask if the same in reverse would be legitimate in that situation and suddenly its not acceptable (im not saying you did this, im saying there are people who do)

The "jump in and look at each other" thing doesn't work if you have structures involved. Then the subcaps sit there and twiddle their dicks while the supercarriers rep / supercarriers and titan smash down whatever structure is the target objective. That's an even more exaggerated version of the status quo today.

I think the way you get around these issues - murdering subcaps, replacing dreadfleets, etc - while still having a viable hull is to give the ships significant non-DPS roles. From what I can tell from the depths of history, CCP originally thought they could use supercarrier SMAs and titan clone vat bays to set up forward deployed areas. This idea may be obsolete but there may be something salvageable from it. Or you look into the kind of traditional roles other MMOs have other than DPS and healers, and see what can be applied - tanks and area affect buffs/debuffs (beyond fleetboosting) are the obvious. As Kazanir beat me to it:

Yeah, this is why the "design" that Greyscale has been posting about, such as it is, is pretty busted. Who is gonna want to use carriers and dreads when you'll instantly lose X of them to a supercarrier/titan counterdrop? Hopefully the newly-reduced ability of titans to clear tackle off of themselves will make supercaps slightly less willing to be like, "Do you have a cyno?" But I guess we'll see.

The better solution to this would be to give supercapitals some sweet combat and noncombat roles that don't stack well. I say this fully aware that this idea wasn't even on the table for this round of changes, though. Stuff like clone vat bays that actually work, grid-wide electronic warfare effects, different fleet/wing bonuses that only an on-grid supercap can provide, temporary pos shields for friendlies to hide in...there are lots of ideas. Stuff so supercap pilots can feel and be useful, but without a blob of 80 or 200 of them being the overpowering determinant in who wins every war in EVE.

I am, at least, encouraged by Greyscale's statement that CCP wants the question, [Should I get into a supercarrier or titan?] to have strategic answers which aren't always [Yes]. That's how every other ship in EVE works and it is about damn time that supercapitals start working that way too. So that's something.

The caveat I'd bring up is that these must be closely looked at pre-institution to make sure they can't be abused. I tried to theorycraft the mini-POS shields idea before (it's the natural EVE way of implementing an area-affect tank) but figured people would just juggle turning the shields on and off on multiple hulls close to each other such that you would never actually get anything down to dead. There's obvious problems here if, say, you get a POS or the center of an ihub within such a ball.

[ripper van]

I love it when PL claim titanblobs being a feasible counter to 1000 goon maelstroms, given the fact they dont even fight goons or never tried seriously.

[Gekko]

The "jump in and look at each other" thing doesn't work if you have structures involved. Then the subcaps sit there and twiddle their dicks while the supercarriers rep / supercarriers and titan smash down whatever structure is the target objective. That's an even more exaggerated version of the status quo today.

Subcaps can't damage supers or stations/ihubs, but they can still hold supers down. This would then provide the escalation of a battle. Either the subcap fleet needs to bring in caps/supers to engage or the enemy super fleet needs to bring in subcaps in order to escape since they wouldn't be able to log out if tackled/bubbled. It would mean that fleets need to maintain some type of balance and you can't rely on only subcaps or only supers. That is what I see as the biggest problem. 1 side wants to use only supers and the other want to use only subcaps.

[Lorren Canada]

Holy fuck you guys are terrible I literally don't know what to say other than remove titans if only to spare the EVE community the weight of supercapital related sperg that is crushing its denizens.

[Lorren Canada]

Would it be reasonable to say that between the scan res nerf and the tracking nerf that turret titans will be slowed in their assault upon subcaps enough to give subcaps a better chance? Theoretically, wouldn't it now take a titan so long to lock a perma mwd drake (or a welpcane) that it would have moved out from having little to no transversal thus reducing the damage done?

[Jinli mei]

Would it be reasonable to say that between the scan res nerf and the tracking nerf that turret titans will be slowed in their assault upon subcaps enough to give subcaps a better chance? Theoretically, wouldn't it now take a titan so long to lock a perma mwd drake (or a welpcane) that it would have moved out from having little to no transversal thus reducing the damage done?

No matter what change is made a blob of subcaps really isn't going to do much against a blob of titans, even if those titans can no longer attack the subcaps back.

[DurrHurrDurr]

I've always felt the issue isn't so much the ability of Titans to track subcapitals, but rather the fact that their EWAR immunity turns a fight between titans and subcaps into a DPS/capacitor race rather than being able to damp, jam or tracking disrupt them to hamper their threat level.

[Rokkensuke]

I've always felt the issue isn't so much the ability of Titans to track subcapitals, but rather the fact that their EWAR immunity turns a fight between titans and subcaps into a DPS/capacitor race rather than being able to damp, jam or tracking disrupt them to hamper their threat level.

This, a hundred times. Immunity is completely retarded as it keeps anything but DPS out of the equation, negating all the usual counters to brute force. How about a partial resistance? Say, EWAR is only 30% effective or some such, diminishing returns blah blah blah. You can do away with the scan res and tracking penalties entirely, leaving it to groups of subcap recons to apply that healing balm. And thousands of Falcons hungry for titan blood, and wings of warp scrambling Rifters pitching in to keep the supers in place. Whoa!

[Lorren Canada]

Remove supercapital ewar immunity? 250 man brobird fleet is a go!

[gala gidas]

This, a hundred times. Immunity is completely retarded as it keeps anything but DPS out of the equation, negating all the usual counters to brute force. How about a partial resistance? Say, EWAR is only 30% effective or some such, diminishing returns blah blah blah. You can do away with the scan res and tracking penalties entirely, leaving it to groups of subcap recons to apply that healing balm. And thousands of Falcons hungry for titan blood, and wings of warp scrambling Rifters pitching in to keep the supers in place. Whoa!

If i recall correctly they fixed the ewar immunity issue and you cannot remote boost a supercap(remote tracking links etc).
Now you want them to get jammed by blackbird?If they do get jammed you want them to be "immune" to remote boosting?Because adding a titan to your watchlist while flying a subcap and remote boosting it with both eccm and remote tracking links isnt too hard you know.

[DurrHurrDurr]

If i recall correctly they fixed the ewar immunity issue and you cannot remote boost a supercap(remote tracking links etc).
Now you want them to get jammed by blackbird?If they do get jammed you want them to be "immune" to remote boosting?Because adding a titan to your watchlist while flying a subcap and remote boosting it with both eccm and remote tracking links isnt too hard you know.

That's what I think would be interesting. Giving titans a high base sensor strength and allowing for the use of remote ECM warfare (both positive and negative) would be healthy for the supercapital meta. A support wing of recons firing damps, tracking disruptors and straight-up jams alongside an Alphafleet against a group of Titans with a vulnerable support fleet flying ships with remote ECCM, tracking links and sensor boosters? Sounds like fun to me.

[UnknownPoster]

EWAR immunity is something that a super should have. We have people complaining about EWAR being OP on subcaps, I dont wanna imagine the tears when a 30man titan blob is perma-jammed by 10 Scorpians. As said before, titans don't really need a re-balance, the need to be rebuilt. Give them a whole new role outside of space taxi and the high alpha DD.

[DurrHurrDurr]

EWAR immunity is something that a super should have. We have people complaining about EWAR being OP on subcaps, I dont wanna imagine the tears when a 30man titan blob is perma-jammed by 10 Scorpians. As said before, titans don't really need a re-balance, the need to be rebuilt. Give them a whole new role outside of space taxi and the high alpha DD.

Immunity? No. Resistance? Yes. That's why the sensor strength mechanic exists.

[Scotch]

Professor D.H. Durr speaks interesting words.

[gala gidas]

That's what I think would be interesting. Giving titans a high base sensor strength and allowing for the use of remote ECM warfare (both positive and negative) would be healthy for the supercapital meta. A support wing of recons firing damps, tracking disruptors and straight-up jams alongside an Alphafleet against a group of Titans with a vulnerable support fleet flying ships with remote ECCM, tracking links and sensor boosters? Sounds like fun to me.

Ok then,so by the numbers i ve seen in fights while in RDN...goon side fielded maximum 900 chars (400-500 in Maels,about a 100 scimis,30-40 recons rest canes and crap).RDN side had fielded maximum 500 maybe 600 in 1 or 2 fights(maximum titans i think reached at 70-75 one or 2 times,same number of supercarriers,about 300 DPS ships,rest logi recons and tackle).

So in this way if you have 300 abbadons,you can propably drop the 2 tracking enhacers and use remote eccm and remote tracking links that will negate any ewar coming from at least 150 ecm ships and 150 tracking disruptor ships.

Cant see how the titans will be stop from blapping stuff left and right

[DurrHurrDurr]

Ok then,so by the numbers i ve seen in fights while in RDN...goon side fielded maximum 900 chars (400-500 in Maels,about a 100 scimis,30-40 recons rest canes and crap).RDN side had fielded maximum 500 maybe 600 in 1 or 2 fights(maximum titans i think reached at 70-75 one or 2 times,same number of supercarriers,about 300 DPS ships,rest logi recons and tackle).

So in this way if you have 300 abbadons,you can propably drop the 2 tracking enhacers and use remote eccm and remote tracking links that will negate any ewar coming from at least 150 ecm ships and 150 tracking disruptor ships.

Cant see how the titans will be stop from blapping stuff left and right

I wasn't very specific. One thing that I think needs to be changed about the current EWAR system is the strength of remote boosters. One possible solution is for sensor strength to not dictate the resistance to enemy EWAR modules, but to act as a value displaying insular electronic strength. To say simply, having a high sensor strength would reduce the power of incoming EWAR in general, both positive and negative. A high sensor strength will reduce the strength of incoming remote sensor boosters AND tracking disruptors.

It's not something I had thought out fully before posting; to have it work the way I intended to convey would require the ECM system itself to be retooled somewhat. The point stands, though, that removing the EWAR immunity of supercapitals would make for more interesting and varied ways to both combat and support supers.

[MpozoY]

Remote ECCM and tracking links stack, hostile ECM does not, don't remember about damps/TDs. (E: I remember TPs stack, which is dumb, but irrelevant against supers.) As long as friendly ewar suffers stacking penalties and hostile doesn't, the mechanic works, and would be a reasonable fix to a lot of super problems without all this other nerf silliness

[Lorren Canada]

Ok then,so by the numbers i ve seen in fights while in RDN...goon side fielded maximum 900 chars (400-500 in Maels,about a 100 scimis,30-40 recons rest canes and crap).RDN side had fielded maximum 500 maybe 600 in 1 or 2 fights(maximum titans i think reached at 70-75 one or 2 times,same number of supercarriers,about 300 DPS ships,rest logi recons and tackle).

So in this way if you have 300 abbadons,you can propably drop the 2 tracking enhacers and use remote eccm and remote tracking links that will negate any ewar coming from at least 150 ecm ships and 150 tracking disruptor ships.

Cant see how the titans will be stop from blapping stuff left and right

This post is shallow and stupid and a perfect example of why you are a bad poster getting negreps.

Just saying "if you do that nothing's going to change" is not a good reason to not make changes. It's like saying because some people are greedy and others addicted, drugs like heroin and meth are always going to be around no matter what we do so there's no point in trying to fight the spread of them. What? Not only is that black and white, (only shitposters deal in absolutes) it's wrong.

Additionally, many times supers have lost their support fleets and in the situation above this would render the opportunity for ships to be jammed. And believe me, there will always be people far more intelligent and tacitally developed than yourself to find ways to use ewar for and against supercapitals.

[DurrHurrDurr]

Remote ECCM and tracking links stack, hostile ECM does not, don't remember about damps/TDs. As long as friendly ewar suffers stacking penalties and hostile doesn't, the mechanic works, and would be a reasonable fix to a lot of super problems without all this other nerf silliness

I wasn't exactly sure which stacked and which didn't. If this is the case then it's much more viable with less retooling than I initially thought.

[Manny]

The Ewar immunity thing is gay but at the same rate having 50 billion isk ship jammed by a 10 million isk hull (blackbird) is equally as gay. This leads back to CCPs retarded Ewar change many many years ago where they changed Jamming from a strength based system to a roll of the dice with % chance based off or strength of jammer vs strength of ships sensor strength. At every turn CCP displays incompetence in spades.

[Richter Belmont]

I like the proposed idea of EAS frigates being able to affect supercapitals. With tweaking, of course, they might find an actual role outside of FW gategames.

I also heard, tossed around once, that instead of a heavy-handed nerf to XL guns that titans should just get a role "bonus" that is a nerf to sig resolution and/or tracking, so dreads can be unaffected completely by these changes.

Thoughts on these?

[MpozoY]

Having a 50 billion isk ship jammed by a 10 million isk hull because he didn't bring a 3 day newbie with a 400 thousand isk frigate to kill that Blackbird is exactly how eve gameplay should be

[Manny]

Having a 50 billion isk ship jammed by a 10 million isk hull because he didn't bring a 3 day newbie with a 400 thousand isk frigate to kill that Blackbird is exactly how eve gameplay should be

Care if I put a recruitment thread on SA.com I mean I'm a member have been for years.

[DurrHurrDurr]

Care if I put a recruitment thread on SA.com I mean I'm a member have been for years.

All I really got from this is "Abloobloo recruiting is hard".

In all seriousness though, if you don't have enough support to own the shit out of a blackbird then you have more problems to deal with than your Titan being jammed by one.

[tgr]

Again with the isk arguments.

[DurrHurrDurr]

Again with the isk arguments.

Exactly this. PVP has never been about ISK as far as the worth of individual ships or groups of ships. T3 Tengufleets get fucking dusted if they can't kill your Huginns. Carrier fleets have died to single interdictors. Cynabals die to Arbitrators and Dramiels have been known to die to Ishkurs.

If EVE was an ISK = better game, it would be fucking stupid to play because every subcapital fleet would be blackops/marauders.

[tgr]

To be fair, ISK = better, though. The only thing is, the improvement is supposed to be marginal compared to the increased cost.

[Ricky]

Again with the isk arguments.

How about size?

does it make sense a giant ass ship at the size of a station can be completely take out of a fight by a ship that is a thousand times smaller.

i am all for titans and super carriers not being immune to ewar, maybe it should be a specialized ships maybe even capital ewar ships. price range in between dreads and supers.

but having frigs and cruiser hull jamming super caps is just wrong imo

[DurrHurrDurr]

How about size?

does it make sense a giant ass ship at the size of a station can be completely take out of a fight by a ship that is a thousand times smaller.

i am all for titans and super carriers not being immune to ewar, maybe it should be a specialized ships maybe even capital ewar ships. price range in between dreads and supers.

but having frigs and cruiser hull jamming super caps is just wrong imo

Why is it wrong?

[DurrHurrDurr]

To be fair, ISK = better, though. The only thing is, the improvement is supposed to be marginal compared to the increased cost.

ISK = better if you're looking at the progression from T1 -> T2 -> Faction -> Officer, or when comparing extremely similar hulls.

A nail still gets hit by a hammer no matter how well-made the nail is.

[Scotch]

but having frigs and cruiser hull jamming super caps is just wrong imo

Destroyer and cruiser hulls can already jam super caps.

[gala gidas]

This post is shallow and stupid and a perfect example of why you are a bad poster getting negreps.

Just saying "if you do that nothing's going to change" is not a good reason to not make changes. It's like saying because some people are greedy and others addicted, drugs like heroin and meth are always going to be around no matter what we do so there's no point in trying to fight the spread of them. What? Not only is that black and white, (only shitposters deal in absolutes) it's wrong.

Additionally, many times supers have lost their support fleets and in the situation above this would render the opportunity for ships to be jammed. And believe me, there will always be people far more intelligent and tacitally developed than yourself to find ways to use ewar for and against supercapitals.

About neg repping...the only reason i even read that crap is the comments and they are really awesome.I especially love the "drop dead" better....over a game..

If you want to change stuff you need to change the hole thing,not just the features that you dislike.For example your side wants supercaps not to be able to shoot subcaps..thats fine with most of the heavy supercap entities.But on the other hand i havent seen anyone from your side suggesting a change to mechanics that suit you.For example,how about a simple change to the bridging mechanism on titans so it doesnt work inside POS shields and you are required to be 15-20 km outside of the POS.
This ofc would mean that your side would have to use titans outside of POS shields leaving them open to attack them wich is ofc another reason to recieve another 10ish "drop dead" neg reps.

In the end you just need to stfu,move on and play the game.There are entities that over the years evolved,copied with success set ups from other people like PL and moved on from game mechanics that didnt worked for them.A simple example is the supercarrier nerf-reballance call it whatever you want.Titans is the answer for now untill something else comes up.

It is getting so boring to see goon tears and bitching every 6 months because well...they once used 500 maels and won...and now they need to win win win.

lol at your comments about my tactical skillzzzz.Like i give a fuck if i am good in this game or not...All i want is reds not blueballing me and if that means no titans to hell with them.
like there is a chanse CFC will win a subcap fight if its not 3 vs 1 at least.
And i am taking a bet anytime you want honey

[Ricky]

Destroyer and cruiser hulls can already jam super caps.

yeah from warping/jumping, but not from fighting. there a differences right?

[MpozoY]

I'm pretty sure the Rorqual isn't hostile ewar immune and it's fucking enormous

[DurrHurrDurr]

yeah from warping/jumping, but not from fighting. there a differences right?

This is why specialized hulls exist, and that's why I have no issue seeing ECM work on titans. EWAR hulls, even T1 ones, are pretty shoehorned into specific things as it is.

[Goblin]

but having frigs and cruiser hull jamming super caps is just wrong imo

Your insight into eve brings new life to this forum. Go on.

[tgr]

This ofc would mean that your side would have to use titans outside of POS shields leaving them open to attack them wich is ofc another reason to recieve another 10ish "drop dead" neg reps.

I don't suppose you've been looking around in Tenal the past few weeks, then.

like there is a chanse CFC will win a subcap fight if its not 3 vs 1 at least.
And i am taking a bet anytime you want honey

Oh, you mean like the times we've engaged raiden, ev0ke etc on more or less equal footing, only to see the titans drop by the instant it looks like they might lose?